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33 bisexual sapiosexual genderfluid woman, she/they pronouns, polyamorous, situationally monogamous, submissive brat, poet, pole dancer, in recovery from sexual assault-related PTSD, wrote their Master’s thesis on the poetry of rape trauma, Pākeha New Zealander, into: exhibitionism, soft touch, bullet vibrators, 69ing, powerful poetry, dirty talk, and sex by the sea.

🔗 JANE LINKS | @eroticajane

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Luna Robbie 0:00

Our guest today is a 33 year old bisexual, sapiosexual, gender fluid woman who is naturally polyamorous, situationally monogamous, and uses she, they pronouns, a subty little brat and exhibitionist language gets her wet and they are into soft touch, bullet vibrators, 69 powerful poetry, dirty talk and sex by the sea. A Pakeha, which is to say non Maori, New Zealander, poet and pole dancer currently in recovery from sexual assault related PTSD, they wrote their master's thesis on the poetry of rape trauma. Welcome, Jane, Hello. Could you start off please by telling us if you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame, O Meter, with 10 being the most full of shame and zero being like, I do not have any, where do you fall today, right now and when, if ever has your shame? O Meter squiggled,

Jane E 0:56

oh, I made a three. I got a three. Yeah, it's definitely jumped up to a 10 at time. But today we're at a

Luna Robbie 1:05

three. Okay, can you give us a few details about, like, when it might jump up? Or, like, your kind of like, shame a coaster history?

Jane E 1:13

Oh, I think when I was about 19, shame infiltrated my entire body and my whole being in my whole life, yeah, when I was about 19, and probably for a good five years, I would have been hovering around that seven to 10 Mark. Yeah, utter and complete shame and embarrassment towards myself, my body to being perceived, but it's dropped slowly through therapy, mostly, and now we're only around. You know the three that I think means I have enough shame to keep myself clothed walking around in public? You

Luna Robbie 1:51

are the first person that has said it like that. That is so funny. I've never thought about myself wearing clothes as a function of shame, but I guess it's like, it's the social construct that I do appear. I mean, sometimes it's weather also, but I love that. Okay, does it? Do you feel like your shame of meter is, like, pretty steady now? Like, do you stay at a three? Or do you have moments or situations where it spikes up? Still? Definitely

Jane E 2:20

moments. I work in education, so I'm around people who I have power over. And when topics come up through literature that are related to sex, I definitely feel the taboos and the stigmas sort of seeping in a little bit. And it sort of reaches up to a five,

Luna Robbie 2:38

okay, I hear that. Does it ever drop down, like, for example, when you are pole dancing?

Jane E 2:43

Oh, hell yeah, hell yeah, absolutely. Then you don't have to wear clothes. You can Well, in class, you generally want to be wearing at least totally but Yeah, nah. I mean, I had the courage earlier this year to go topless while while dancing in a studio with plenty of other people around.

Luna Robbie 3:02

Okay, was that very wiggly? It

Jane E 3:05

was very wiggly. A lot of jiggly. That's so funny. This

Luna Robbie 3:10

has been coming up for me lately, like I was talking to someone, we're talking about working out naked, and just like how I'm like, I love to be naked workout, but not for anything bouncy. Like, I'm like, uncomfortable with the idea of bouncing, but I guess they're also with like, a freedom element to it, too, right? Like, like,

Jane E 3:28

star jumps. No thank you. I star jumps. I'll hold them still any other time. If I'm rolling around on the floor, let them fly. Let them fall into the armpits.

Luna Robbie 3:40

I guess that's a good point when I'm vigorously fucking, then they go anywhere, and I'm not really mad about it. I'm not really paying attention to Oh, that's so funny. Wow, wow. I'm already having so many revelations talking to you, Okay, before we dive into sexy stuff, I'd like to get to know you a little bit as a person. So first, can you just give us a little overview about what in life do you love like? What makes you go woo or like? What brings you big joy? What brings you happiness on this planet Earth, as a human being,

Jane E 4:11

writing, expressing, reading poetry aloud in front of other people, reading other people's work, that moment where someone feels brave enough to share something that they've written, whether it's vulnerable, whether it's good, whether it's bad, just that that connection that comes through shared creativity just absolutely sparks me up. Yeah, absolutely.

Luna Robbie 4:33

I feel that so hard. I would love to hear a little bit about like, your process writing like, and Are you also a reader? And tell us about like, are you in writing groups? Like, how do you find other people? Do you go to poetry open mic? Things like, tell us a little bit more about just like, the experience of your relationship with writing. As

Jane E 4:53

a kid, I read books to survive. I dove into reading into chapter books. Into novels just to escape the difficulties of being a human in this world, especially having split parents, bouncing between two houses. One of the constants was that novel I was reading those characters who I could return to that almost felt like friends and yeah, just growing up reading a lot, I never did well, particularly well in English at high school, but once I left, I went and studied fashion design. And I love creativity and I love the visual arts, but something was missing. And what was missing was that love of language, that ability to live inside words and the sound of words, the taste of words, the feeling that comes when you when you get the exact right word to convey whatever thought or feeling or idea that you want to express when, when I get that, I really enjoy expressing myself through language. And yeah,

Luna Robbie 5:59

I love that. And I feel it so hard too, like I have always been a journaler, and especially looking back, I'm like, I mean, the way that sex stories came about is that I was, like, sharing boy stories, I was sharing girl stories, and then I was sharing sex like once I got, you know, because there was something about writing it down that helped me make it real, or process it or contain it. I remember also one of the very first times that I ever got stoned, like smoking weed with older brothers friends. I remember being like, how do people who don't journal even think about the world like? For me, it was very much a like container of my like human experience. So I love that you're in the specificity of language, how do you show yourself? Love Like, how do you woo you? Is writing also a part of

Jane E 6:48

that, definitely, definitely, because to take the time to write is to step out of all the responsibilities of my life. Like, I have to write for work, I have to write emails, I have to write, reports, all those kinds of things, but that's not the kind of writing that really, really ignites the passion in me. It's the writing that comes in the quiet moments and the 1am wake up when an idea or a feeling is just being almost haunting me, and I pick up a pen, and I pick up my journal, because I journal as well, and it spills it spills out. It's one of those moments where it's almost as though the creative Muse is taken over, that it's, I suppose some people would say, connected to source. For me, it's that it's connection to something greater than me and beyond me. And while it's for me, it's channeling through me into like you see the container. So that's that's the like writing side of it. But then there's also the being received side, when you get an audience for whatever you've written, and that is frightening and terrifying and rewarding, and one of my favorite parts of having grown older and become more mature and now I have the courage to share those deep insecurities or deep passions or whatever it is that makes me tick in that moment, at that point in time.

Luna Robbie 8:21

Totally. It sounds like you prefer pen and paper. Do you also do type, itty? Type, Type or like, how? What's your process? Like, what's the delicious version of your like, writing yummies,

Jane E 8:33

pen to paper, absolutely black ink. Always, you've got to have a pen that really glides so that it's smooth. I

Luna Robbie 8:40

love felt tip ones. What's your favorite? Like gel we

Jane E 8:43

do felt tip sometimes because I've got an injured shoulder, so pushing pressure through my hand, I tend to do it very intensely, like I'm engraving my words on the page. So the good thing about Yeah, felt tips or not, a biro is just not satisfying a ballpoint pen, it's just not. It's not, it's not the same. Yeah,

Luna Robbie 9:04

I agree. I get too many hand cramps from those. There are certain gel pens, like certain little roller pins, but then they run out of ink, I don't know. But then I smear them everywhere I feel, like, with felt tips I'm least likely to smear. What about? Like, the setting that you create for yourself, like, what's your ideal most self love ish way to write

Jane E 9:22

after a bath and a towel with a candle on, yeah, yeah.

Luna Robbie 9:29

Music or silent, I have to be silent, yeah, okay.

Jane E 9:32

Silence or piano music in the background, nothing with lyrics, the lyrics, the words and the distraction,

Luna Robbie 9:38

totally, totally. I feel that so hard. Any other self love practices or just like ways that you love to just like romantic yourself,

Jane E 9:47

the bath. I bloody love the bath. I do, really do. It's when we when we bought the home we're living in. Now, I made a point. Point of we have to have a bath. It is non negotiable. We need a bath because I need to be able to sink into that water, feel the warmth on my skin. I need to be able to just melt into a

Luna Robbie 10:13

bathtub a human after my very own heart. Okay, tell us now. How do you like to be wooed by another, like, what sort of what are your most delicious ways of receiving attention and care,

Jane E 10:28

direct, explicit communication, no guesswork. I when I've been single in the past, I've hated the dating scripts and the games. And then do I teach back yet? How long do I wait? Just, just tell me you want to fuck me. Let's see,

Luna Robbie 10:50

yeah, and then clearly communicate how and when and when and when can I look forward to a date? But, um, yeah, tell us more about that. Like, well, yes, there

Jane E 11:00

are particular language structures, anything that begins with my name, using my name as a massive turn on, okay.

Luna Robbie 11:08

Oh, I love that. It assuming that it's being said nicely, because I know that growing up hearing my name with a certain tone made me feel very Oh, if I

Unknown Speaker 11:18

get the full name treatment, I'd be out

Unknown Speaker 11:23

of there. There's with

Jane E 11:25

men, nothing nicer than a then a deep voice, then that low, deep sound that you can almost feel sort of rumbling through you. But it's almost like you hear and feel the acknowledgement of your existence through someone saying your names right away. What

Luna Robbie 11:45

other ways that aren't word related Do you like to receive care and attention? Soft

Jane E 11:49

touch, just the softest touch, ever slight taps on the shoulder, an arm, as hand run down my arm. Then there's also things like the little butt slap when my partner walks past me, or the little squeeze that happens at the end of a hug that just tells me that I'm a little bit closer, that I'm held, that I'm wanted, and that's a that's a massive word To use, but those little communication cues that aren't overly sexual in nature, that might be more loving, those are what allow me to let my guard down and open myself up to being able to have a more direct conversation about where I want to be touched, what I want to do, Who? Yeah, that kind of thing. I love

Luna Robbie 12:41

that. And on that note, you know, it sounds like to feel connected. Words are a piece. Gentle touches are a piece. But to take a connection from something that is, you know, just regular human, into the intimate zone and to make it physical, what do you need to have in place like what makes you feel connected? What makes you want to take that connection to a physical place,

Jane E 13:05

not being stressed, not being overwhelmed by everything that comes with work and everything that comes with living in the world and making a living and paying for the roof over the head. It's it's those those moments where I'm not going to say things like the dishes are done, because that doesn't matter, but those moments where I've had a chance to go to the loo, when I've eaten, when those basic needs, those human needs, have been met, because they have a shocking habit of putting myself second, putting those base needs, those ones at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy, I tend to neglect them a lot. Yeah, when

Luna Robbie 13:48

did you notice that? Oh,

Jane E 13:50

probably about seven years ago. In therapy, I noticed, even though it's something I've been being told for a long time, it was in therapy that I managed to notice that I would put off eating until I'd finished a task. I would hold my pee and not go to the loo because I had a responsibility. All those kinds of things that basically trying to force myself into not being a human, were happening, and I realized, through continued talk and reflection on what were the precursors to your meltdown? What were the things that happened before I had a tantrum, as I put it, and realizing that, Hey, I am actually a human and a physical body, and you can't think your way out of everything. I can't think my way out of everything. Oh,

Luna Robbie 14:43

the wisdom, oh, oh, it is so funny to remember that we are in human bodies. I mean, also in a modern world that wants to squish us out of them. And for me, screens. You know, I spend time when I have to on screens, and I probably should spend more time on screens to do administrative things and be. On top of things, like a grown up, and it feels terrible to my human body, like terrible, you know, it's, it's, it's nothing like being outside in the sunlight and all this stuff. And here's a question, though, um, just hopping back to clicks, if the dishes are done, is that a turn on? Fuck yes. Yeah. I really relate to the remembering that we are human and remembering to drop into the human being and body parts. What about emotionally when it comes to wanting to connect more intimately with a partner, like when your stress is soothe, when your needs are met. What other pieces need to be in place?

Jane E 15:43

I need to feel adored. I need to feel like I'm not just being accepted, but being admired and adored and really held up and seen in something precious and valuable and as though to touch me is the greatest privilege in the world. Because you know what it bloody is,

Luna Robbie 16:08

yes. How do you know when you are adored?

Jane E 16:11

It's energetic. It's on their bodily level again, it's it's a felt safety. It's knowing that my little amygdala in the bottom of my brain isn't gonna set off the fire alarm, that I am not just logically rationally safe, that my system is safe. Oh, I

Luna Robbie 16:34

feel that so hard. What are your health and safety practices historically now, whatever like, what do you need to feel safe and healthy in a physically intimate connection?

Jane E 16:44

In the past, I had a lot of less safe feeling interaction because I went for a good few years there where the only sex I ever had I was drunk out of my mind. So sobriety is really important to be able to access that for me now,

Luna Robbie 17:04

yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. What about in terms of, like, conversations with partners, or Yeah, and like, like, STI things, anything like that, you are partnered. So is it monogamous right now, like you said, situationally, you know, share a little bit about that my messy questions.

Jane E 17:21

So by situationally monogamous, I mean that I am fully and utterly committed to the person that I'm with, that I absolutely love him to pieces. He's the father of my child, and because of that, because to me for my son, I want to see him grow up in a world where he feels like love exists, where home is safe, where he learns through observation, that after rupture comes repair, where he learns that safety is about respect, All those really important messages for safe relationships that I didn't necessarily receive when I was young. It's really important to me that that happens now, so that is why I am now fully committed and honestly monogamous. In the past, I was less honest and I was pretending to be monogamous, which is, quite frankly, just cruel. It's really, really cruel. And I felt very ashamed about the cruelty of having been unfaithful in the past. And it took a lot of self reflection and learning about the concept of polyamory and realizing that it is fully human and totally natural to me. From my experience, to be able to be in love with multiple people at one time,

Luna Robbie 18:50

I really relate to that. So as a currently monogamous person, also love the phrase honestly monogamous. I've heard like ethical non monogamy, consensual, non monogamy. But honestly, monogamous just has a ring to it that I love. So I imagine there are some benefits, like in terms of when you are having sex with your partner, I'm assuming no barriers, like fluid bonding, like what do you do in those cases? What do you need to feel yummy and safe there?

Jane E 19:20

Well, I used to have sole charge over the contraception, as many women do. We've got that responsibility to protect ourselves, even though it takes two to tango, so to say. But now, ever since I gave birth about three years ago, I've been too terrified to get another IUD inserted, so we have reverted to the tried and true condom. Okay,

Luna Robbie 19:45

okay, so you're using condoms. Oh, I love that. Okay, tried and true. Great

Jane E 19:51

and true. Nice. Okay, so UTIs aren't so much of a concern, because I have full faith. That my partner is as committed to me as I am to him. In the past, I was uneducated on the ways that you can actually ask for safety. I didn't know how to put into words, can you please use a condom? Because I knew I was covered for pregnancy. I wasn't going to get pregnant. I was on the pill. It was fine. It was fine. It was fine. So there was a huge amount of disrespect to myself for not protecting myself, against STIs, for not having the courage to speak up and advocate for my own physical safety and my own physical health.

Luna Robbie 20:37

Yeah, and also without clear models, clear examples, clear instructions and social norms that support all of that. It is more difficult, you know. So it's like, I know that I've been in places of self blame. I've heard that from many others. And it's also just like, well, we gotta do our best here. And yeah, I loved it. How did you learn to say, Can you please use a condom?

Jane E 21:00

I've only ever been able to say that with my current partner and yeah, I've only ever learned to do it with immense trust, time built to have shared expectations and shared responsibility around what we are both and each willing to participate in it. Yeah, I

Luna Robbie 21:22

also lately have been, you know, when I'm with a new lover or something, I'm just like, Well, I'm not monogamous, and we're just getting to know each other. So I prefer to use condoms and I just leave it at that. And that's been highly effective. And it took me forever to get there, you know. And, and I I like it, though, because it kind of creates this, like, expectation and norm. And it's like, okay, well, you can leave if you don't want that, you know, or you can, like, show me how deeply committed you are, if we want to have, you know, a conversation about what it would take to get to some sort of fluid, bonded situation. So I hear all of that many other types of safety that you experience. Or, like me,

Jane E 22:01

my safe word is simply stop, okay. I am okay with no being seen within a role play as not something that I need, and I will go, Oh, no kind of thing. And it's that that ingest that, that teasing No, you can't have me just yet, and that's a power play. But fundamentally for me, the thing that makes me feel the most safe is knowing that the second I say the word stop, it stops.

Luna Robbie 22:35

I really love that. Does that mean that you are playing with things that might require a safe word, or is it just for any circumstance? I kind of like the idea of stop just being like a general. I have also done pause. I need a pause. And when I was younger, this is not sexual. Just let me preface this by saying this is not sexual. But when I was very young, I had an older brother I would get picked on, and I learned that going, wait, wait, wait, would earn me like a pause, like he would pause, because it was almost like a and then I would run away, you know, I'd like to know just quick, a lot of stuff. So do you, do you use stop? Is it mostly for sexual situations, or does it work more broadly for you? Like, when do you call upon it? It

Jane E 23:17

does work more broadly. And my role as a mother, for sure, sometimes just a simple stop with a hand signal, signal for stop is enough to cut through the ignoring the word no, because toddler loves to ignore the word no.

Luna Robbie 23:35

Yeah. Well, they're exploring contingencies. They're like, but what if? What will

Jane E 23:40

happen absolutely but stop is clear. It is instructive. It's similar to if there's a fire alarm, it's better to stay say, stay calm then don't panic. It's about phrasing it in the positive and the active and the most explicitly clear I could possibly be. I

Luna Robbie 23:58

love that you brought that up because one of my best, and to some people, most annoying qualities, is that I, when I learned about the active language and how human brains are most likely to like, respond to the words that they hear and ignore the don't like, ignore the negative of it. I am such a like positive like a, what is that? What is that actually called, like, active, focused language person. So I rephrase everything to be in the active thing that I can do instead of a thing I can't do, you know? And that really annoys the shit out of some people, but I have found it so highly effective, also for my own inner monolog, my own brain, you know, I like, Don't be anxious. Isn't helpful. I am calm. Helps me drop. It helps me notice the parts in my body where that's true, you know. And so, you know, I am calming down right now, or whatever, whatever it is. So I love that you brought that up. What are some circumstances where you've had to use stop in the bedroom?

Jane E 24:59

Um, with pain, with pain that was unexpected. Yes, so a lot of that is to do with birthing injuries and surprising pain, pain that was triggering, pain that brought up more pain and more memories. I can't remember a time where I've been able to say, stop that. It hasn't been listened to.

Luna Robbie 25:22

I love that you have that also, thank you for offering that. Because I know early on for me, it was difficult for me to kind of like express what I need. I mean, also, part of me is just curious and a pain slut. But before I knew that, you know, there were, there were moments where I was like, should I say, you know? And I think, stop, is such a beautiful, simple, clear offering. Did that just come to you naturally, or was that like, did you learn that from somewhere?

Unknown Speaker 25:52

I think it came from my own. Brain. Cool,

Luna Robbie 25:55

nice. Good job. Brain, not to be too praise oriented, but brain, I see your work and I approve. Okay, all right, let's veer into more sexy stuff. What is sexy to Jane E,

Jane E 26:10

physical. The physical is sexy. The sensational is sexy. The sensory is sexy, the experience of sex and sex adjacent acts is sexy. I'm not a person who's particularly attracted to appearance, particularly with men. I'm definitely drawn to esthetics when it comes to women. And with the men that I do kind of get a little, oh, you're interesting, they tend to be more feminine presenting. So I would say that esthetically, visually, I'm really drawn to the feminine. But that doesn't preclude men from being attractive to me.

Luna Robbie 26:52

It sounds like you also find words very sexy. Yeah?

Unknown Speaker 26:57

Absolutely. Praise.

Unknown Speaker 27:01

Okay. Yeah. So an

Jane E 27:03

affirmation, and like I said before, I like the feeling of being adored, and that comes through words such as, you're so sexy, or words like, I love your tits or your ass is the best, or just any of those. It doesn't have to be lyrical or poetic, it doesn't have to be in real life. It doesn't have to be articulate, it just has to be truthful. I feel that so hard. Yeah, well, in reading, when it comes to reading things though, reading erotica, reading literature that's designed to get people off I prefer things that are more sort of prosaic, things that are possibly flowery in their in their expression, rather than like a romantic or something that's a little closer to your general public fiction.

Luna Robbie 27:57

Ooh, okay, wait, say more because you sound like a connoisseur, like do you read a lot of yes

Jane E 28:04

and no? There is a journal here in New Zealand, in Aotearoa, that is no longer in print. They are on hiatus. So the Maori word for New Zealand is Aotearoa, and the journal I'm talking about is called aotearotica, okay, so merging New Zealand with the erotic, and it was a brilliant journal, and they, I think they did about eight issues. It's filled to the brim with poetry and very short stories that express the sort of variety and richness of sexual expression in New Zealand. There's also a journal that's now closing, but they're called overcome magazine. Another small, small, small New Zealand is tiny, and the literature scene in New Zealand is, sadly, even smaller. We're a farming society. We're a we're a country that runs on agriculture, and we know under our gumboots and our studies and there's not a lot of appreciation for the arts and the humanities and literature. And so finding those small pockets of society that hold up artistic expression, they're often I have found the same circles where there's an acceptance of gender diversity or differences in sexualities or just the expression of sexual desire most specifically through poetry and at poetry reading,

Luna Robbie 29:46

I love that. I want to hear about any sort of like erotic sex related writing and or poetry like how it kind of informs your experience of sex itself. Yourself. You know the relationship between your writing and your physical experience. Also, if you have any favorite erotic words or like, Don't fucking use the word. You know, I know a lot of people hate the word member, or some people don't like the word moist, or like different things. So if you have, yeah, I would like to hear anything that you want to say related to writing and sex and your experience with

Unknown Speaker 30:21

it. I love the word.

Luna Robbie 30:22

Can't me do? What do you love about it? What do you love about it? I love

Jane E 30:26

the the sound of it, the hard sound to cunt. It's got that in the and there's a power to it that gets lost with pussy, which is just to me, not as appealing. It's, it's a, it's, it's a looser word. It doesn't have the same power to it for me, yeah.

Luna Robbie 30:47

Also, the way you pronounce cunt is even better than my American accent. Could you say

Unknown Speaker 30:53

cunt?

Unknown Speaker 30:56

What else? What else? So when

Jane E 30:58

I'm writing, I actually really struggle to find words that don't immediately come off to me as a little bit tacky when it comes to dicks. Like, yeah, like, I think I like the kick of cunt, so I often end up using clock as its sort of counterpart. Nice. I love that.

Luna Robbie 31:18

Do you know any good words for balls, not testicles. Like, what's a sexy word for ball? I'm like, we need, we need some better words here. Because I'm like, I really love thinking about balls, talking about them, writing about them, playing with them, but like,

Jane E 31:37

you know when they sort of slap against you while you're in the world? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, that's great. But how do you put that into writing without it sounding comical? Basically, yes,

Luna Robbie 31:48

humping, grinding, like, humping is one of the sexiest thing. Like, because I and I didn't realize I was Humpy, like, because I was like, I'm really into this thing where I like, wiggle my pussy really hard on the thigh, and my friend was like, humping. And I was like, yes, that needs a better word.

Jane E 32:05

When I hear the word humping, I think of a little chihuahua dog going at a league.

Luna Robbie 32:11

I think of camels, which is different, but like, I think of like, writing a camel, which is not what humping is, but like, I mean very literal, but very literal brain, but, like, Yeah, I'm like, Okay, we need some some language evolution. Um, okay, but what about the relationship between your writing and, like, the physical desire or arousal or whatever? Like, how does that inform because, like, I'm a big sexy journal, or, like, I have a heightened erotic experience, and I gotta go write down all the details I can remember in the order, you know, and it's like impossible to remember the order, and I just want to have a full feeling, but like, what is your relationship to that? And how does desire play into it? If at all, it

Jane E 32:51

sounds to me as though you're talking about your experience being physical first and written second. Sometimes, sometimes, I found recently. I found that when I'm writing an erotic story and I get stuck, if I go into the next room and grab my vibrator and rub one out, then I come back more inspired I've got I finished off the fantasy in my mind. I've played it through on a bodily level, and it's then sort of formed and crystallized and is ready to come out in a narrow form.

Luna Robbie 33:31

I fucking love it. That's so genius. Also, because one of my favorite questions to ask people lately, which there hasn't been a whole lot of I mean, whatever, everyone has their own experience, I find a very big correlation between my own personal eroticism and my other creativity, even if it's not specifically erotic creativity. But I love that that is such a clear example. If you're like, let me go, yeah. Like, what a flow. How did you learn to do that? The way I learned

Jane E 33:59

to do that, in particular was writing and feeling myself getting turned on and being like, I'm actually getting distracted by my own positive response to my clearly brilliant writing.

Luna Robbie 34:12

Yes, I love that also, what a clear example of you're like, I do have a need right now, let me go prioritize it.

Unknown Speaker 34:23

That's a really good point. I hadn't considered that, oh,

Luna Robbie 34:26

or at least a desire, you know? I mean, I do think sex, for me, is a need. I know that. I won't it's not like hunger. I know it's different. It's not technically a drive. But like, you know, I think, yeah, every little win, I

Jane E 34:38

would consider it a need to, I think, in the times in my life where I've not had access to sex or sex that is fulfilling, I felt emotionally bereft. I felt empty, I felt unfulfilled, I felt stuck. I've gotten writer's block or just some kind of creative. Frustration. There's a quote I really love create frustration is creativity that hasn't found its outlet yet.

Luna Robbie 35:09

Oh, wow, I love that. I wish

Jane E 35:11

I could remember who it's attributed to. But I also think that in a lot of ways, for me, sexual expression is also a creative expression.

Luna Robbie 35:21

I think sex is our original creativity. I really do. Oh,

Jane E 35:24

yes. So the act of sex itself is creative as in terms of the word meaning like novel or inventive, yeah. But also particularly interesting that some forms of sex can be creative and that they are reproductive exactly, and that they create life,

Luna Robbie 35:43

yeah, exactly, all of it, you know, and it's co creative like it is. I mean, I can masturbate that's creative. It is sex to me in my book, but like, partnered sex, that co creation, like that for me, it is like next level nourishing life. To go back to what you were saying, like finding satisfying sex, I will say, since I created a life for myself where I can regularly, consistently have access to novel, safe sex where I feel highly valued, it's life changing. It's so life changing. Also love your use of the word bereft, like, what is it like to go to these poetry readings and it sounds like you're sharing your work and also hearing other people's work, like, how? What is that like? Exhilarating.

Jane E 36:31

In one word, it's exhilarating. It's fulfilling. Um, it's, oh, I don't have the words for it. I just have this elated feeling. It fills me up. It fills my cup, if we're going to use a tried and true phrase, it fills my cup to see the bravery of people expressing things that are often so stigmatized that can be considered taboo in doing it in an environment where academics and writers and people who just write for fun and happen to work as an accountant or whatever random career they happen to hold, I mean myself coming from education, it's not a it's not a clean and perfect fit. It's not entirely complimentary to my day to day, but it's that escape. It's that escape into the creative and the creative as connected in a lot of ways, to appreciation and desire. I don't wish to ever sexualize a person who's reading, because that's a little icky on the consent side, but there's a vulnerability to sharing writing, to reading your poetry, or one's poetry, or one's writing that is deeply spiritual and about connection.

Luna Robbie 37:56

Yeah, I totally hear that, you know. And also, for me, there is a turn on energy that can be erotic, but isn't necessarily erotic, but it's like the recognition of another human being as a sexual creature. Not that I'm going to take their energy or do anything about that energy, but just like appreciation for another human being's erotic, yeah, erotic creature. I love that the

Jane E 38:22

editor of arte erotica actually recently released a book called Sex comma with animals, because her, yeah, her whole expression, she's got a whole book of it. They all, in some way, feature an animal figure. It's not bestiality, just to be very, very clear, not bestiality. I am not okay with that. I don't think that's okay in any way. But using, for example, a bull as a symbol of masculinity, or, yeah, there's just, I really love that that exists here in New Zealand. I love that there is someone she actually also has a background in education. So it's really reassuring to see that there are ways to participate in the taboo that are still professionally safe. To put it simply, yeah,

Luna Robbie 39:17

I love that you have. I mean, I want that for more of us in the world. You know, I I talked to so many people who would share, but they're scared because of mostly professional reasons or social reasons, or familial reasons, or what if they get, get kicked out of their situation reasons. And so it's like, I love that you have this safe space, this safe outlet. I would love to hear about how you learned about sex. Could you take us through your formative sexual timeline? You know, hitting whatever highlights feel relevant, but maybe starting with, when do you first remember hearing about or understanding the concept of sex? I

Jane E 39:59

cannot remember. Remember not being aware of sex. I was really fortunate that my mother believed, rightfully in my opinion, that we should be equipped with age appropriate knowledge to understand the world around us. I remember seeing things on TV when I was quite young, so if, even if it was just a kiss on, we've got a in New Zealand, we've got a soap called Shortland Street, and it's, it's a trashy show. It's on every evening, but there'd be a kiss scene. And I remember the discomfort of seeing that in the same room as my father, but not having that same discomfort in the same room as my mother. And there's a huge difference between my parents in terms of their attitudes towards sex. My mother is for her generation. She just falls into a boomer. She doesn't like to be considered a boomer, but she's recently turned 60, and she viewed sex much more liberally than my father did. I say did because I no longer speak to him. I haven't since I was 15. Okay, the only times I ever remember him doing anything to educate me about my body or about relationships were once he was drunk and I was going to a party, and it was when I was probably about 14. So going to a party was a very new experience for me, and he dropped me off. He drunk, drove me there, dropped me off, but before he did that, he made sure he sat me down and explained to me that abortion was never okay, that I was not to do that, that if I found myself getting swept up in anything, I was to think of my grandmother. Oh,

Luna Robbie 41:48

my goodness. How was that for 14 year old? You?

Jane E 41:53

I mean, I didn't really listen to it at the time. I was 14. Okay, I was about a year away from completely cutting ties with them, so I was able to see through it and see that it was a short sighted, narrow minded, unhelpful piece of advice. So I did choose not to take that advice on and instead, I just put a pin in it as another thing that was different between he and I, another perspective that differed between the two of us.

Luna Robbie 42:28

Wow. So did you get sex ed in school? Like, where do you feel like you really started to learn about it? And did friends ever talk about it with you? Like, what was kind of the texture like or were you learning about it at these parties once you started going books

Jane E 42:45

reading. I discovered relationships through Jacqueline Wilson novels. I discovered the idea of sex and attraction through kissing and the baby sitters club books, it was really through fiction that I learned the most helpful advice when I was quite young. New Zealand's got a relatively good health curriculum. The curriculum document itself is really quite good, and today it is even better. It is facing some backlash from politics and politicians who are more conservative and more bigoted at the moment, but I received reasonably thorough advice in terms of consent and STIs. I learned what STIs were. I learned about the different kinds of contraception that I could use. We also had access to a nurse at school who would refer you on to the doctor that visited once a week if you needed to have an appointment to get an IUD fitted or contraception prescribed in any kind of way, amazing.

Luna Robbie 44:03

Wow, that's really cool. And New

Jane E 44:07

Zealand family planning is the organization that exists to provide education and services to the population. And I went to the GP the very first time I went on the pill. Actually, my mother made my appointment for me because she'd found a box of condoms in my handbag. I'd gotten the box of hot condoms from the nurse at school, and they were in my handbag, and she came in one morning to wake me up. And for some reason, she'd made me lunch. I usually made my own lunch, but she made me a sandwich this day. She brought it in, just unzipped my bag, ready to pop it in, and there was a cotton on they remember lying in bed and watching her just sort of very deliberately take it out with a slow pause, take it out. Pause, open the box. Count how many were in there. Close the box. Put it back. In and goes, Okay, we'll have Dave a talk about this later. And it wasn't in a growling way. It wasn't in a way to imply shame. It was just, there's something important happening in your life. Daughter and I am here to support you, to get the information that you need. How

Luna Robbie 45:16

beautiful, also for her to put a pin in it, and not like in that moment, dive right in when you're just waking up and all of that. What do you remember the conversation that came later?

Jane E 45:28

I think the conversation that came later was, No, I don't remember it, but I remember feeling that it was okay, that I wasn't bad or wrong for having followed through on preemptively protecting myself. I was sexually active at that stage I had been with, well, actually the father of my child. We met at high school. Oh, okay, yeah, so I've spent more of my life with my partner, then not with my partner. Yeah, there were those moments where I was dishonest and unfaithful, and there were a couple of years there when I was about 18, when I first left home and moved to a different city, and we found that long distance was was not going to work for our relationship. We had some rocky patches,

Luna Robbie 46:20

but, yeah, okay, when did you start exploring your own body? Quite

Jane E 46:25

young. I think I explored my body without knowing that's what I was doing. I remember listening to an episode of Sex stories from probably about four years ago, now, five years ago, and you and the guest were speaking about basically humping pillows, and I had this moment of, holy, fuck. That's what I was doing. And that was masturbation, and other people do that too. It was, it was a huge light bulb moment for me, where I went, Ah, that's the name for that. Also

Luna Robbie 47:00

humping. We need a better word.

Jane E 47:03

We need a better word. I think frottage is a word for it. It means like rubbing and grinding, but frottage doesn't sound much better

Luna Robbie 47:12

and I and it's not like in colloquial use. And it's like, I've heard it's, I've heard it also pronounced frottage, I think, but I but, but I'm like, it that, to me, honestly sounds like a dessert food, like, which I, I mean, one could make a case for it, but, like, I don't know, it's like, also it reminds me of, like, cottage cheese. Like, I'm like, I don't know, like, Oh, wow. Okay, so you were exploring with pillow that is so wild to me. I never, I never thought to put a pillow like, up against my pussy? I do sleep with pillows between my legs to this day, like, if I don't have a human thigh between my legs, you know, if I'm sleeping alone, which I usually am, you know, I'll cuddle a pillow. But like, how do you think to hump a pillow? Like, what? And you squish it. And how hard do you go? Like, how did it occur to you? Do you remember?

Jane E 48:01

I know, oh, I do remember a sleepover with a friend and we were daring each other to do things like, I dare you to take your shirt off. I dare you to pretend to have sex with that pillow. And that's how I discovered it. It was through a deer.

Luna Robbie 48:19

Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. I mean, okay, and the sex with a pillow, such a funny phrase.

Jane E 48:28

I suppose it's also like it was basically improv. It was creative expression. It was yeah, it was play. It was play, yeah,

Luna Robbie 48:37

exploring contingencies, which is what you know, sex is adult play two adults playing together, exploring contingencies, hopefully having fun using our bodies, seeing what happens, learning and growing from each other. Was the pillow method. Your like, primary, go to source, like, tell us what? Every morning, every bloody

Jane E 48:56

morning. Yeah, absolutely, especially in my sort of early teens, it was every morning, and it wasn't until I met my my partner, and as teenagers, we were texting each other, because it was at a time when you got, I think it was 500 texts for 10,

Luna Robbie 49:16

yeah, I remember those days, yeah,

Jane E 49:18

yeah. So we were I had to very carefully craft my my sexts. It was really important that I was able to fully express as much as possible. And that's when I started realizing that what I was writing wasn't true to my experience. What I was writing was true to the representations I'd seen it on TV, and I was trying to feed him images and and, yeah, I was trying to feed him images that I'd gotten from visuals of film and what I I knew very little of porn at that point, because the internet wasn't as big as it is now. But yeah, it was. It was a performative act, and I started to feel as though I was doing. Wrong. I was like, This feels good, but it's not something I feel that I can share. So that's when I first started playing around with actually inserting fingers into myself. And because I'd been a girl that used tampons, it didn't feel good to me at the start. It took a long time before penetrative stimulation was something that I would crave or that would really turn me on. I still very much love clitoral stimulation or external stimulation, even just pressure against the vulva and the lips is just

Luna Robbie 50:38

delicious. Love that so much that my favorite warm up turn on is like, yeah. Again, if I have a thigh or a leg, or Shin, whatever between my legs, or just flat hand not even moving, the number of partners to where I'm like, just put a flat hand. And they're always like, I'm like, just don't even move. And the fingers are like, and like, just like this, don't move at all. And it's like, just the pressure, yeah, and it's so enticing to me, too, you know, like that. That just like the anticipation of it when you are with a pillow. Or are you still with pillows ever? Or do you it says that this is that face past I've got

Jane E 51:17

a vibrator, so I take the short count,

Luna Robbie 51:20

okay, in your pillow. Days, what positions were you like on top of it? Was it on top of you? Can you? Could you be any position? Do you need a lot of pressure? Like, how are you maneuvering

Jane E 51:32

on top of the pillow? A lot of pressure on the pillow, and always with one knee up so to really, sort of like, open the hips out. Okay,

Luna Robbie 51:41

okay, so really, just fucking the pillow? Yeah, yeah. One

Jane E 51:46

thing I used to always do was, would be really interesting that you saying cupping with almost like a cupping action with the hand? Yeah? Because I would place one hand and press into the pillow and then have my other hand cut over the other hand to add more pressure. So it's not just the pillow itself. It was the mushiness of the pillow. Mushiness isn't the right word, the squish. It was the squish. But with the firm hand behind it, yeah, to really get that pressure, yeah, it's

Luna Robbie 52:19

also occurring to me in this moment that in all of these years of hearing people talk about pillows, and it does seem to be something that people discover young and grow out of, but like, I haven't fucked a pillow, like I haven't masturbated with a pillow, and I'm realizing that right in this moment, I'm like, I've literally been interviewing people for seven years, and I'm like, Whoa, I didn't Even Okay, well, I know what I'm doing later.

Jane E 52:44

I love that you're still discovering things. And like this is something that you're aware of, but something you haven't even tried. It's

Luna Robbie 52:51

It's infinite that thank you for recognizing that I feel very seen. Also like the amount that I continue to discover new things, especially in partnered sex or partnered any dyad, like any other person situation, like the amount that I've I'm so highly influenceable. And also there's just so much infinity, everything, and the same thing can feel so totally different with a new person. But also then suddenly I find myself in these, like, funny positions, and I'm like, How did I get here? How am I scissoring like this, you know, like and so, yeah, I that's, I think one of my favorite things about this podcast and about partnered explorations is just like that, there's so much to discover. And speaking of discoveries, what did you discover next? So you went from Pillowing you were exploring penetration with your own self. How did partnered sex that you chose? You know, how did chosen partnered sex enter your life like? What were kind of your next formative explorations? It sounds like, Did it start with your current now? Now partner?

Jane E 53:57

Yes, we used to go to the public gardens in our city and hang out there. It's nice to be in a park type setting, but we would find little private nooks. And it started with just making out for excessive amounts of time, just kissing and kissing and kissing and kissing. And I remember going home afterwards and being sort of surprised and almost a little confused by my own witness by I didn't realize that this is what self lubrication meant. I didn't realize that it was like a tap that gets turned off later. I didn't realize that my body had that much capacity to prepare my own body to be entered, so to speak. And the first time that I had sex, sex like penetrative penis and vagina sex was actually a miscommunication, and that's not a bad thing. There was a slight miscommunication. Medication because I was being eaten out. He was licking my pussy. And I said, No, he wasn't. He was fingering me. And I said, I want your mouth. And he misheard and heard, I want your dick. And he stopped and said, Are you sure? And I said, Yeah. And so he repeated what he thought he'd heard. He said, You want my dick? And I went in this microsecond my kid. I was like, No, that's not what I said, but the answer is yes, and I was like, yeah.

Luna Robbie 55:31

What a beautiful miscommunication with an opportunity for clarity. Wow.

Jane E 55:36

And he used a condom because he is respectful and responsible when it comes to our sex life. And has been since day one. And it lasted all of a second, because it was his first time too, but it was like this moment where, like, just that bubble of anticipation was birthed, that bubble of I was convinced I was going to die a virgin. For some reason, I was just like, I'm never going to have a boyfriend. I'm no one's ever going to have sex with me. Got a boyfriend, and my boyfriend wanted to kiss me, and he was a year older than me at the time, a year and 12 days, to be exact. So there was a lot of he was cautious. He was very respectful and spelled out to me, you do not have to do anything you do not feel comfortable doing. We will go at your pace. If you want me to stop, we will stop. Yes, I want more, but what I want more than that is for you to feel happy and safe. So immense maturity from a 15 year old teenage boy, but immense, and that's probably part of why I'm still with him, is that that emotional maturity and intelligence and knowing that I am a person, I'm a whole person, and that my body is my own, oh my

Luna Robbie 56:59

Gosh. I am so glad to hear that that person is in your life, that from early on till now, where were you when you had your first partner debut? Like you weren't in the gardens, right? No, you were some different you were, we were in the garden. Yeah? Wait, so he just had condoms, just in case. Like, I love that he's prepared. Yeah, yeah. Must

Jane E 57:25

have because he, he did have some that were flavored, because he was, he was, we were experimenting with oral sex. He was okay. I've got some strawberry condoms, if that would make it better for you. Best not to use flavored condoms for things and vagina sex you read because, you know, yeah, so not something I would advise, but was definitely the safer decision. No such thing as safe sex, just safer sex. Yeah, beautiful,

Luna Robbie 57:54

beautiful, risk. Aware, I love that. Okay, so paint the picture in this garden, private ish zone. I'm assuming it's not like a gawking situation. Was it on the ground? Like, was it standing up by a tree? Like, where? Also, I love outdoor things. So, like, I imagine you do to tell us, tell us. Tell us the situation. So

Jane E 58:15

it is on this big grassy bank. There's this, grass bank with trees, and we sort of secluded behind a tree, so from the general walkways, no one could see us unless they came up the hill and sort of looked behind the tree. Broad daylight, honestly hot, hot sun. I remember, I remember the yellow brightness of the sun, and I remember the blue of the sky, and I remember the green of the grass, and it was just a beautiful summer day where I felt just relaxed and at peace. We'd we'd sat and we talked for hours, because that's what we did. We hung out in the gardens, because we had privacy there we had, we had more privacy in a public space. It may have even been, may have even been on a dad weekend, so on a weekend where I was scheduled to go to my dad's house, and on Dad weekends, I did a lot of going to the gardens to hang out with boys, specifically my partner, but also his friends. They were there at that point. We I always felt as a teenager that I had more privacy in a public space than I did in the privacy of my home.

Luna Robbie 59:27

Also, you are inspiring me, because now I'm like, I want to create a fucking garden public access, you know, save, hmm, there could be condoms everywhere. Who I could have special blankets for the grant. Okay? Oh man, because I, you know, safe spaces for outdoor play. A lot of us don't, you know, I live in an apartment. I live in a beautiful concrete box, but it's a concrete box in the middle of a city, and so it's like I am craving outdoor play. And, you know, access is a thing. So. Were a lot of your early experiences in this garden, like, that's, it's like the Garden of Eden. I mean, it's the garden of Jane, the garden of Jamie.

Jane E 1:00:13

Yeah, no, yes, the short answer is yes. We would hang out at the gardens. And there were enough sort of secluded spots around the place that you could grab on, that I could grab onto, a minute or two of privacy. There were times where it wasn't as private as what would have been preferred, but that's usually when we were just kissing. We were kissing on this bench. Once in this parent and a child walk past and she says to the other parent, oh, girl, they're still at it.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:50

Oh, that's funny. Is

Luna Robbie 1:00:51

that also where you had your first like, hands and oral experiences, like where? I mean, not that the location is the whole important thing, but I'm just curious.

Jane E 1:00:59

No, we had a we also had a part just down the road from me, where I would I would jump out my bedroom window, and he would be staying at his friend's house in the next suburb over, and he'd walk, and he'd walk, he'd bring a blanket because it was cold, and he'd walk along the street. He got stopped by the police one, and they're kind of like, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm going to see my girlfriend. And they're like, Okay, carry on.

But yeah, there was a swing set, and we would sit on the swings. And I love swings. I've always loved swings. Slides terrify me because it's an uncontrolled motion, but there's just something I feel so howled when I'm swinging, yeah, yeah. There's also that soothing of the rocking.

Luna Robbie 1:01:47

It's almost like flying and like, sometimes, sometimes slides, I've gotten really zapped by them, like the the static from it, like, yeah, in my garden there is a grown up play. I have had lots of fantasies about grown up playgrounds. That is playground equipment, but, you know, specifically outfitted. Okay, so it's not just by the sea. Like I would love to hear about the ocean sex too. I mean, we'll keep filling in your timeline, in the divine timing. But like it sounds like outdoor play is a thing for you,

Jane E 1:02:15

formatively, differently. I mean, now we fit it in when we can. Now we fit it in when we've got the babysitting now we fit it in when it works, and that's usually inside, in our bed.

Luna Robbie 1:02:28

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so, so formatively, what unfolded next for you you were in this relationship, it sounds like often on ish for a while.

Jane E 1:02:39

So the way I used to say it was three years on, three years off, no, three years on, three years Rocky, three years off, three years on. So we were together through high school, and then I moved away. I moved to a new city to explore my design interest. I wanted to be a designer, and when I left home, I was just a very lonely and uncertain, uncertain young woman. I didn't know who I was, and I thought that I would be able to find myself through creativity, through designing dresses, through sewing, I was immensely disappointed with the reality of life, and it wasn't as magical as all the stories I'd read had made it out to scene. I was always yearning for this escape from the oppression of living under your parents roof, even with a mother who was so loving and so nurturing and so understanding. I still felt a desire to not be a minor. I didn't want to be a kid. I wanted to just be a whole person, and I really felt that the way the world looked at girls, in particular, teenage girls, and was not the whole picture. And that's definitely true. Like, I think that as as, like women, are not seen as whole people by some. And that was, that was a heart that was heartbreaking. And so I started sleeping around a lot. I slept with a mutual friend and broke my boyfriend's heart. I hurt him deeply, deeply, deeply, deep, deeply. So we separated. We separated because I needed to grow up. And that's actually even something that I was told, you know, you need to, you need to grow up. And I hated hearing that I was Yeah, but it was true, I needed to experience more than what I already had to learn and know that what I already had was what I wanted. Yeah.

Luna Robbie 1:04:53

Also, it sounds like some part of you was like, I do need to grow up. Like, quite literally, I need to not be. Be this child or that, you know that the phase of teenager done where it's like, I would like to be my own person, and I can't. I have constraints here, like I, you know, I know that I needed that space. And it also sounds like, you know, if his heart got broken, you told him

Jane E 1:05:13

I did. I couldn't lie. It didn't feel right. So I was a shell. Yeah, I was not myself, and I didn't know how to find myself. And I started looking for myself at the bottom of a bottle, at the bottom of a joint. I started doing anything to feel something, doing anything to feel alive. And that's where I probably had my most dangerous and risky sex experiences, because I did, not only did I not know who I was, I didn't know how to love or protect myself from harm, so I put myself in harm's way and was harmed.

Luna Robbie 1:06:00

Yeah, yeah. What did you learn next and what feels important to share in your development, in in these early years of your 20s, right?

Jane E 1:06:13

It was late late teens. 19. Late teens. Okay, 19. And I learned that to be held and to be seen was magic. That to have someone embrace me for my flaws and admire me and adore me for my strengths was priceless. It was so valuable. There was there was nothing I wanted more than to be in the arms of the person that made me feel like I was okay. To be me, to have my thoughts, to have my viewpoints, was okay, even if we didn't always agree. One really amazing thing that I do appreciate about that time apart we had, though, was it gave me the time to explore my sexual orientation. Okay? It gave me the opportunity to sleep with a few guys and feel unsatisfied, quite frankly, and to realize that one night stands were likely to be gratifying for him and boring or uncomfortable for me. Yeah, I've always been interested in sex as a topic. I'm very interested in it as a political concept. I'm interested in the way it interacts with gender. I'm interested in the way that sex and power are intimately connected. And I'd been following a blogger, a writer on the internet. Her name's Carly Shortino. She goes by brativa. And I really loved the feminism that she presented, and it really spoke to me, and it helped me to see that at that point in my life and in that point in my development, monogamy wasn't the right choice, and it also helped me question whether heterosexuality was the right choice, because I just kind of fallen into this relationship, and it was my first. It was my very first proper relationship. So to have that space, to have that time, to grow as an individual, meant that I got to flirt with girls and realize I really liked that, and I say girls rather than women, because I was so young at the time. Nowadays, I have an issue with using the words girl and boy, because I'm an adult. I prefer to use

Luna Robbie 1:08:54

I totally hear that, and I agree with that. And I also find myself defaulting to girls and boys, because there is some part of me that is, I mean, I am a full adult all of that, and I am conscious around other people. But like, in my head, even though my hair is grown back, I'm still a shave head girl. I don't know I'm like, I have this, like, little thing. I totally hear that. Yeah. Okay, so you were discovering other fins. How was that?

Jane E 1:09:19

I remember there was this one girl who she I met at a house party i i had gone with a guy, with this guy that I was casually seeing, who was very much head over heels for me. He really liked me, and he was very much a rebound for me. So it was never going to be anything. We went to a house party for some reason, to pick something up, or I genuinely can't remember, but this young woman came out of the room and who's here with all messy and she was like she had this frown on her face, and we kind of made eye contact. And. Yeah, and it was just one of those moments where, when you meet someone, there's where it was just one of those moments where I felt a complete affinity. It was we clicked. We immediately clicked. And she started sharing how she was quite frustrated and upset because some random at this party in her own house had just given her a judgmental and scathing comment about, Oh, you're here as a mess. You've obviously just been in bed. And I remember calling that out, and they're like, well, that's bullshit. Who gets a fuck? It's your house. So we met that once, and then we parted ways, and I was continuing to see this guy, and we didn't see each other again until she found me on Facebook. In the very early days of Facebook, she found me. And the way she found me was there was a photo of me in a local newspaper for a story to do with the study that I was doing at that time. It was a promotional story for the place that I was studying at, and she saw the photo of me, and so therefore she had my name, and so she found me on Facebook, and she said, Hi, and that's when I learned her name, because I'd literally just met her, and she was like, I'd like to hang out with you. Like, do you want to catch up? And I'm just sort of like, Yeah, sure. Like, absolutely, I didn't have a car. I couldn't drive at that point in time, so I invited her over, and she came over, and we ate cheese on crackers and drunk really cheap, shitty wine, and talked and talked and talked, and she told me about how she'd had a nose job and all sorts. And then she went to leave, and I just felt this, I don't want you to go. I don't want you to go. I want to be closer. And I made a step towards her, and in the moment that we made eye contact, I could see the desire in her eyes, whether it was mirroring my desire or whether it was her own, I don't know, but we kissed, and it was one of those moments where it wasn't that one person made the move, it was that we both moved towards each other in that same moment. Yeah, and it was beautiful. I loved it.

Luna Robbie 1:12:18

I love those moments. And I've noticed that when there is enough slowness to create the right environment, both people can move toward each other. That's so beautiful. But then what happened next?

Jane E 1:12:34

Then I learned that I can be a little dominant when it comes to women. I suddenly knew what to do. I'd never thought about what to do. Oh, that's not true. I made out with a friend's girlfriend two years ago. It wasn't very much the oh, we're at a party. That's just what we do. My

Luna Robbie 1:12:53

first girl kiss too. Yeah,

Jane E 1:12:55

yeah. I mean, this many years later, she is now married to one of me and my partner's mutual friends, they are now married, and she's still very staunchly bi, and I'm still very staunchly bi, and we no longer have, like, any attraction to one another at all, but we played around together right At the start. Yeah. But back to the story. What happened next was I pushed her back onto the couch, and we kissed. And we, we, we, ah, it's that word again, humped. We gotta come up with a new one. And then I lead her to my room, and I remember her taking her clothes off, and I remember that she had lace matching underwear on, and that gave me the message that there'd been a plan all along. As a woman, I knew you don't bother matching lace underwear unless you're actually planning on anyone seeing it.

Luna Robbie 1:14:01

Oh, what validation. Okay, how was it for you to discover that side of yourself? Like, had you been aware? Like, you know, what was it like for you?

Jane E 1:14:10

I think I'd always been sort of vaguely aware that there was something sort of different about me. I'd always felt that I didn't quite that the box that I was supposed to sit in, according to society or the church or my father, but I remember that just being such an exciting, just pure excitement, and the difference in the power dynamic was really interesting, being the more assertive one, being the one who was almost directing the interaction, the one that was pushing it forward, the one that was not the driving force behind it, but the one that was the more active. I know, in fact, I have eaten girls out, but I have never been eaten out by a girl. Okay.

Luna Robbie 1:15:06

Why is it because you're more dominant with women, so you end up topping and doing the things, or is it just circumstantial? And is that something you in a circumstance where you're where it's possible and respectful of your partnership. Like, is that something you would hypothetically want? Absolutely. Why

Jane E 1:15:25

not give a go? Yeah, yeah, no, but it's, it's um, this actually links back into the whole pillow talk, pillow Dawn, because I remember organizing while licking her clip, I remember rubbing up against the mattress with one leg cocked up in the same position as I would with the pillow. And I remember orgasming as she did, and it just mind blowing experience absolutely an utterly mind blowing experience. I definitely felt like a one of the strongest connections, sexual connections I've ever felt with her. And years later, I invited her over once my partner and I were back together again, and we had a threesome. It was fun. It was so, so fun.

Luna Robbie 1:16:25

What do you remember about it? Was that your first threesome?

Jane E 1:16:31

Yeah, first and only actually, okay. I mean, I would love to have another one, but more. Where do you fit the time in with full time work and parenting. I'm sure I could fit it in.

Luna Robbie 1:16:43

I mean, both of you have to agree, it's a real priority. According to the book by Emily nagoski come together that I just read, you know, like, for like, long term couples, etc, etc, it's like prioritizing it totally and it's a thing. And could you please tell us details about your one and only so far, threesome.

Jane E 1:17:04

I love this. So far, so far. What do I remember? I remember waking up, so I'll work backwards. Remember waking up the next morning in bed together and being wedged in between a man and a woman and reflecting back on the night and having all these images racing through my head, and I remember the joy and pleasure of seeing my partner experiencing sexual satisfaction in front of me, and I remember absolutely loving that one of the Things that turns me on the most is pleasure, and another pleasure. And in that moment where she was on top of him and she was bouncing on that deck, I just remember looking over at his face and him making eye contact with me, because I was sort of watching and loving it, I remember we had gone into the me and the other woman had gone into the bedroom earlier, and we'd been kissing and spending time together and getting to know one another's bodies even more. And He came in, he opened the door, and the look on his face his door dropped, oh my god, I'm the luckiest guy on Earth. Upon reflection, one of the things is I wish I'd watched for longer, and I'm like, Oh, well, he didn't, because he jumped straight on and and, I mean, this was over a decade ago now, so I can't remember the intricacies, but I remember the excitement again. It's that excitement and how new, novel and unknown the experience was, but also how safe it was, because it was with two people like already trusted and I knew were safe to be around. Yeah.

Luna Robbie 1:18:57

Oh, that is so special. And actually, as you're saying that it's helping me appreciate my first threesome was with a couple who I was separately and together, very good friends with, you know. And so it safety really is fucking sexy, yeah, when in your timeline, did erotic writing start for you, or, like, reading. I mean, it sounds like it's been a part of your beat, but like, when did that kind of like, come into play for you in terms of, like, processing your own experiences or sharing or fantasizing? Like, is it interwoven in this period?

Jane E 1:19:34

No, I didn't write. I didn't write for years because I wanted to be a designer, I was set on visual expression. I was I was absolutely set on the idea that I was going to become a world famous designer. I was going to be absolutely loaded, and all my problems would be solved. Didn't happen, although I learned that the fashion and. Industry is incredibly exploitative and not something I actually want to be a part of. It would probably be, honestly in the last few years. So I've always written, but for many, many years, probably from about 2122 when I when I went to university to study arts. I was mostly focused on writing trauma, on writing out the pain, writing out all of the things that were bogging down joy, all of the things that were disrupting connection, all of the things that were getting in the way of a felt sense of safety. And this was also before I went to therapy, before I properly disclosed to a therapist that I had been sexually assaulted, and before I got the treatment that I required. In New Zealand, we have really good healthcare, and our mental health system needs a lot of work. However, there is something called a sensitive claim whereby anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault of any kind can basically get free therapy for as long as it takes to be healed. And I don't believe anyone ever fully healed from former so process, yeah, yeah. So I spent a lot of time processing the things that had not been pleasurable, the things that had been harmful and had hurt through writing and through poetry. And that culminated in my thesis, which I did on the way that poetry is, in my opinion, uniquely placed to express the experience of trauma like they the way that it fragments your sense of self my the way that it fragmented my sense of self. And it wasn't until I had completed that thesis and I had gotten my grade back that I started to return to the page and turn to the page in a more pleasure and joy driven way. Yeah, rather than bleeding raw on the page, I started to play again. I started to look for what it was that ignited a spark in me, and the spark that's being ignited currently in my writing practice is one that is inherently sexual, that

Luna Robbie 1:22:31

is so it is so powerful. I find myself so moved in this moment, and how beautiful that the page is there for you to bleed and also celebrate, you know, all of it, and there is a fullness in me to hear that you have found that in writing, and it's something that's so important for me personally. And so just to, just to hear, and to hear your use of language, does it feel helpful to speak about your experience in therapy like just, I'm a big therapy nerd. I've been going to therapy since I was 25 I had an acting teacher be like everyone, every creative being, which is everyone, especially actors, must go to therapy, you know, twice a week, if possible. You know. And the idea being that that having a safe space to have someone who is simply holding unbiased counsel for us helps us just figure out the tough spots. So what? What has that process been like for you?

Jane E 1:23:28

It's been a really long process. I am I've always, always had faith in the counseling space. I've always when I was quite young, I ended up in the school counselor's office for reasons, and although I didn't engage at that point, I was told I am always here. There is always someone that you can go to to talk to. So then when I was 19 and had first experienced rape, I went to the counselor, and they tried to encourage me to go to the counselors and therapists and psychologists who are who specialize in the treatment, and they tried to encourage me to lean into the therapy that was designed to treat former sexual abuse, and specifically PTSD, because I did develop what has recently been coined by my therapist, chronic PTSD, so that knowledge that it's never going to go away, but it was a very stop and start beginning. It took a long time for me to find someone who, like you say, was able to hold me, anyone that was able to hear me and acknowledge what I'd said in a way that made me feel safe, that made me feel like it was okay. Not okay, is the wrong word. Made me feel like it was okay to be not okay. Made me feel that it was okay to disintegrate and that I would be helped to build the pieces back up together before I left that room and returned to the day to day. Interestingly, around the time my thesis finished was around the time I gave birth, and I actually suffered from quite a lot of postpartum depression and anxiety and near near psychosis, I did a lot of lying to the medical professionals. Didn't disclose that I was hearing voices, didn't tell them that I was seeing things, because I was just too scared my baby would be taken. Yeah, yeah. So at that time, the therapist that I was seeing, and had been seeing for five years, and had a very strong relationship with my paranoia and my sort of delusions at that time, turned into her working with my mother and working with my thesis supervisors to take me down. It turned into an absolutely unhinged and I'm connected to reality, fear that, yeah, that I was at risk of being put away, but I due to that, I cut ties with the therapist, and then ended up not eating or sleeping for about three days. And my partner was so worried, was so worried, didn't know what to do. So again, it's my immense gratitude to the New Zealand Health System, because I was I went to the GP who referred me to the emergency room, who referred me on to a organization that had, for want of a better word, sort of safe houses. So I was able to go and get some immediate medical care in the form of medication, so that I got sleep, so that I could just return to some kind of baseline, some something that resembled what I was before that big break that happened? Yeah, I had it in my head that I was the sexual predator, that I was the one that had done harm. And so through that complete breakdown of self, I had to rebuild my sense of self again. And when I was rebuilding myself, it was through connection with my partner, it was through creative expression in the form of making scenes. It was through poetry. And I'd gotten to a point where I purged everything, and I've got about four journals that I purged everything into. It was screeds and screeds of writing, messy, messy writing, and I've put them in a box and they are locked away safely in my cupboard if I ever wish to open them again. But that act of really purging the pain and the trauma really helped me to unlock positive creativity, really helped me to access my sexuality as a strength and a positive and something that is all the beautiful things that I've been talking about already, that is that ignition of passion, that is that almost sense of invincibility that comes With those moments where the oxytocin is pumping, and everything is just going, Wow, yeah, wow.

Luna Robbie 1:28:27

Thank you for sharing all of those details. Like, holy human I mean, wow, it that's, that's totally the full spectrum of, I mean, all the hills birth and breaks with reality and all of it. Like, were you even in touch with your erotic self during this time? Like, what was I mean during the hard time that I imagine? Not at all right, like, when you're struggling to just, like, be a human but in pregnancy leading up to all of that, like, what do you remember about your erotic self in those moments,

Jane E 1:29:02

the pregnancy hormones made me really horny, like, Okay, our sex life got intensified. We were but we also had the difficulty of trying to navigate the fact that my body was much bigger and different in shape and size than it had been before. So it suddenly turned it into a new experience. And there was also, I found it very intellectually stimulating to wonder about maternity and and motherhood, and how that is often seen as negating sexuality within women or muting it, and the fact that I had more of a sex drive while pregnant, while being in this feminine, this biologically essentialist mode of womaning, finding that my sexual drive increased, was like, yeah, no, I am a sex. Well being, and the fact that I'm sharing a body, I'm sharing my body with an unborn human doesn't change that. The fact that I will one day be a mother doesn't doesn't change that I have that within me and that it's a part of me and my being and the way that I want to and choose to exist in the world. Yeah,