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46 straight-but-interesting cis white male, 15 years of solo-poly, relationship anarchy experience, teacher, artist, entrepreneur, parent, kind and gentle and very kinky, from BC, Canada, into: power play, practices and teaches shibari workshops, learning and practicing healthy poly dynamics, journaling, meditation, personal development

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[00:00:00] Luna: Our guest today is a 46-year-old, straight but interesting cis white Canadian male with 15 years of solo poly slash relationship anarchy experience, who is kind and gentle and very kinky. And I 100% voucher this because he is one of my number one noodle friends is especially when it comes to feelings.

Well, he's my number one feelings noodle friend and has been for. Like a fucking decade now, right? In 10 years? Yeah. Uh, he loves to talk about communication patterns, communication patterns, personal stories. He is particularly interested in power play practices and teaches shibari workshops, is very invested in learning and practicing healthy poly dynamics, journaling, meditation, and personal development.

A slut for new information and new ways of communicating and relating. He also taught me, or did you create the term feelings? Monster. Is that, did you teach me that? He, he created it, which I now frequently identify as specifically, um, a feelings dragon. But this is not about me. This is about him. He is a teacher, artist, entrepreneur, and parent from BC Canada.

Welcome Michael. Woo.

[00:01:09] Michael: Woo. Hi.

[00:01:12] Luna: I am bursting with excitement. And can I reveal that we were just like chatting on the phone, like regular, you know, we often of course have early morning talks. Okay. And I was just getting so excited because you really are my number one relationship noodle friend. And you have, um, I mean our first, our first, our first collaboration was acting related, but I remember early on getting to know you, like we talked about all things Polly.

We were pretty early on in both of our explorations. While you were more, I guess you were still a few years in and I was a brand new mess. So welcome. Thank you for being here with me. This is so exciting and a long time coming. Yeah.

[00:01:46] Michael: I'm excited.

[00:01:47] Luna: Could you please start off by telling our sweet listeners if you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame ome right now with 10 being so full of shame and zero being, I don't have any at all right now.

Where do you fall today?

[00:02:00] Michael: Okay, so this question I've been thinking about, you know, because in this moment, talking to you right now, I feel zero, but because of like my own history, you know, I, like, I grew up Catholic, I inherited like a lot of shame. I am vulnerable to being triggered into like quite significant shame, you know, and sometimes unpredictable, you know, so if we talk long enough and you ask some kind of question, it is totally possible that you and your listeners will get to experience me having shame in real time.

And then you'll be able to say, oh, that's what he's like when he's feeling shame. And then we can talk about that. But right now, zero.

[00:02:46] Luna: I love that. And uh, you are invited but not pressured to share the shame of meter number if and when it changes. So it sounds like, okay, so I often will ask people about their shame of coasters over the years, but it sounds like yours really is moment to moment in a lot of ways.

I mean, I've experienced this with you and also I've experienced that you are very thoughtful. You are one of the most, I almost put in my like, little part of the introduction. I almost be like, shame is one of our favorite topics because we do talk about it a lot. If it's, I mean, it's like, it's something we return to often because it seems like you have that awareness.

Can you describe what it feels like in your body or maybe different ways, like kind of the moments where you notice it? What's the right word here? Come up. Oh

[00:03:27] Michael: yeah.

[00:03:27] Luna: Attack, shame. Attack. What

[00:03:29] Michael: is it?

[00:03:29] Luna: Shame creep. Yeah. Squiggle up rapid tentacles around you.

[00:03:34] Michael: Yeah. Uh, what does it feel? It feels like, it feels, um, like hot and dissociative and like things are already distance.

It's, there's a lot of tightness. Um, and particularly, oh, like, um, something that I'm really noticing lately, you know, which you and I haven't had a chance to talk about yet, is that I can feel my belly tighten, you know, and it's like, and I think that the, because the shame and the criticism or the self-criticism are so linked that I can't actually separate them on the inside.

It's like when my belly gets tight, it snaps me into performer mode. And, you know, and so the way that I often occur, or the way that I behave when I'm deep in shame is I'm fine.

[00:04:20] Luna: You know,

[00:04:20] Michael: and if it's deep enough, I believe it. Whoa. Right. Where I'm like, I'm fine. No, it's like things are fine right now. I'm so fine.

It's very, very fine. You know, the, you know, but what there isn't in that fine, it's so performative. There's no access to tenderness. Like there isn't, you know, access. Like I'm not gonna cry about it. In fact, it's not until like a week later where I have the cry that I like so clearly, deeply need that I'm gonna start feeling like myself again.

And so lately I've been really paying attention, you know, to Oh, it's like I can feel that like pulling out of my wise self and into performance mode when I get shame triggered.

[00:05:02] Luna: Wow. Okay. Do you think this new awareness around tight belly shame mode will help you get there fast? Not the fastness is the key.

You help me learn to not idea about fastness, but like, you know, do you think that that's something just as like a signal for you?

[00:05:19] Michael: Yeah, exactly. Like it's giving me a physical way to check in with myself, you know, and, and really, like, my goal is to have a way to have that little cry more often. Mm-hmm. And to build that into my meditation in the morning.

Or like, I often, you know, these days will find the like little cry that I need, you know, either in meditation or when I'm journaling.

[00:05:40] Luna: Mm. Okay. We will undoubtedly come back to shame, especially sexual shame. But first I want, I want, I want my sweet friends who are listening to get to know you the way that I know you a little bit.

And also I'm curious to hear how you will answer some of these questions because I wanna talk a little bit first about love and connection before we get very erotic. So, could you tell us, please, in general, in life, what makes you go woo? Like tell us some stuff that you love, how you have fun, and what brings you big joy

[00:06:12] Michael: for me.

Big joy lives in like really connected conversations. You know, there's big joy and it can be mm-hmm. Uh, dancing. There can be big joy, you know, there, like I can find big joy, like being just fully engaged in my body. And I, I often find that dancing. I will sometimes find that in, uh, out in the woods. You know, I, I live in a beautiful place where I have really easy access to being in the woods.

And I'll, I'll find that relationally, you know, especially, you know, like not just erotically, you know, but when I'm sort of deeply engaged in a conversation. So, you know, with one of my partners, I don't know, I'll sit in the kitchen and read to her while she makes food, you know, and, you know, just like feel delightful and romantic or she'll leave me long voice notes, you know, telling stories about her day.

And I just think she's so funny, funny, you know? And so those are things that bring me big joy.

[00:07:14] Luna: I want you to please share details about your dancing. Then I wanna talk about details of what is romantic, because you brought it up. And then I also want you to share a little bit about your creative parts that bring you joy.

[00:07:26] Michael: Dancing is the, the first, first time that I really experienced being in my body. You know, they, I, I was very ashamed of my body as a young person, and I didn't really spend time in it, you know, I was, you know, uh, like in my head and finding things to excite me ideas. And then I found myself at 20 at this retreat, and I was like, oh, five of them dance workshop.

Like, what is that? I will go and, you know, try that. And then, and I, um, so and so it's like an ecstatic dance practice, one of the ones that's been around forever, you know? And it took me into a genuinely altered state, you know, for the first time of like fully inhabiting my body. And I was like, I don't know what that was, but I must have more of it.

And so I would say that dancing has almost been my primary spiritual practice ever since, you know, where it's the place where I feel so in myself that I feel a connection to other people or to the world. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it's, you know, I, I do different kinds of dance now. You know, I, I do, uh, contact improvisation, which is style contemporary dance where you're like in contact with another partner and sort of using them, you know, as support, you know, for me, vocabulary.

But that's, there's, that's not a lead follow dance. Like, you're not making people do anything. There aren't moves. Exactly. And I do blues fusion dance, which is, uh, like a mixed style partner dance where it's like, if you're a tango dancer and you wanna dance with a salsa dancer, like how are you gonna dance together?

Well, they call that fusion and there are sort of fusion scenes, but they're little pockets. And, and I still do ecstatic dance because it's my chance to just go and like, dance however I'm feeling. Okay. I love that. A co um, years ago, uh, I went to New York for the first time and I was like, I was like, okay, I'm in New York and I'm gonna go to, like, one of the things that I did was I went to this like massive warehouse party in Brooklyn, and it was like, there were like 30,000 people.

It was like an airplane hanger. So like, it was so massive. I didn't realize there was a second floor until like five in.

And I was like, okay, like this is New York. Like this is, this is the play. Like people are gonna be just like giving her on the dance floor. And one of the things that I was surprised by, but actually was like really comforted or reassured by is the percentage of people who were dancing full out at this 30,000 person party was identical to the percentage of people that are dancing full out at anything in Vancouver.

[00:10:05] Luna: Really?

[00:10:07] Michael: There's just not that many people. Okay. Like most people are dancing and they're like in their body and they're feeling it and they're enjoying themselves or jumping up and down. But like the number of people who are like have like really expansive vocabulary and are just like completely letting go and being like, I don't care if I'm weird because this is how I'm feeling and I'm gonna use my body very small.

[00:10:28] Luna: Actually that's works for me. I was like, Hey, my

[00:10:30] Michael: people, what's up?

[00:10:31] Luna: I love that. I love 'cause like, yeah, I mean at some point you have to learn a certain amount of language. You have to have like physical, I mean like. I'm in much better shape now, which I can tell from fucking, like, I can, like, fuck as long as I need to, but I will get tired pretty fast dancing for like, I have friends that can dance for hours and I can dance for like a few songs, and then I wanna sit down and be lazy, you know, like, I like to like use my physical movement in another way.

Well then we should

[00:10:57] Michael: do blue fusion dancing. You can dance. It's, it's very mushy. It's okay. It's, it's very, it's very sexy.

[00:11:02] Luna: Do you feel like you had, it sounds like your first experience was ecstatic dance and like, the five rhythms I've only done, I think like, one little thing of it, but it moves you through all these different ways and like kind of encourages that level of freedom, right?

Because it's like, without that Yeah, it's, I think

[00:11:16] Michael: fluid. Staccato chaos. Vocal. Yeah.

[00:11:18] Luna: And like without that, I think the extent of my dance was like at high school dances and then like Yeah. Weddings, you know, which is Yeah.

[00:11:26] Michael: That's most people. I, I definitely have had folks. You, okay. It wasn't something I was super close to, but I, I remember where she's like, kill you really?

You really dance like you're drunk and at a wedding. And it was like, yeah. Yeah. I get, I guess you're like,

[00:11:40] Luna: but I don't need the alcohol. That,

[00:11:42] Michael: that is the, like a normal person association for the way that I danced. Oh, interesting. I mean, well I think what she was saying is that like, I danced in an uninhibited way.

Yeah. Like you was, you know, uh, unusual, you know, for her. But you know, the behind it, you know, is Yeah, I do wanna dance that way.

[00:11:59] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. And can I share with our sweet listeners that you are a person that like, I. Sometimes uses caffeine.

[00:12:06] Michael: Oh yeah. You know, I'm completely off now.

[00:12:09] Luna: Oh, completely. Okay.

[00:12:10] Michael: Okay.

Yeah, yeah. The, so there's the thing about, you know, whatever, the half-life on caffeine, you know, being six hours, so like 12 hours later, this half a quarter of it in your body, you know, and I thought, I was like, I was like, okay, I'm waiting and I'm gonna get it. Right. I'm include caffeine. Oh, I was so excited about my coffee.

And then I hit the point where I'm like, oh gosh, I'm such a delicate flower. Like, you know, and sleep is so important for my mental and physical health. I was like. If I stopped drinking coffee entirely, would I sleep better and more deeply? And it turns out yes, so, Hmm.

[00:12:41] Luna: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:42] Michael: It's still, I still love coffee and kind of miss it.

Yeah. You know, but I really don't miss, you know, the, any amount of disruption to my sleep,

[00:12:51] Luna: that's for sure. Also, I would never think of you as a delicate flower that does make me laugh. But I do think of you as a sensitive being. 'cause you are, I mean, just, just a sensory person that's, that's

[00:13:01] Michael: me. Um, in with one of my partners early on in the relationship, she noticed that when she called me cute, I would have this like, like little contraction, you know?

And she was like, what's that about? And she's kind of a brat. So she just started doing it more and calling me cute and calling me a princess and telling me how little I was and you know, the, and it, it was a way of being like gently confronted with some of, you know, my own internalized masculinity. Like the stuff that was sort of still there, you know, where I was finding it confronting to be called cute.

And so it, it has, I shifted to where, you know, referring to myself, you know, as cute and as a delicate flower, you know, feels fun. You know, because it's, it's something that even a couple of years ago, I would have. It's like had feels about.

[00:13:51] Luna: Yeah. Well it sounds like you did. Yeah. Well, okay, so speaking of internalized masculinity, how do you experience romance?

Like what is your, is her calling you cute in this teasing way? Does that count as romantic? Like how do you understand romantic? I think you were talking about it in the context of like reading partner book in kitchen, but like what is romance to Michael

[00:14:16] Michael: with that partner specifically? Like, she is so awesomely weird.

Like she doesn't think of herself as romantic, but I tell her how romantic she is, but it's when she like sends me bones or you know, like wants to talk about death, you know, or is like sharing a poem and she's like, is that romantic? I'm like, yeah, you're letting me in on something that's special to you in a way that makes me feel special, that feels like romance to me.

Mm-hmm. You know, is the like special sharing, you know, that involves like a shared sense of specialness that, that the romance, you know, isn't about, are we doing something that is sort of conventionally romantic? You know, it's, you know, are we doing something that is, you know, sweet and you, uh, connective and like purposefully special making together?

[00:15:06] Luna: Yeah. And that purpose has to do. Relationally with the other person. Yeah. But I think romance is relational. I mean, I've been studying it now for, since, uh, Valentine's Day of last year, so a little bit over a year now. Um, like I've been like asking people about it and thoughtful about it and like, kind of like, yeah, joking with friends of like, oh, there's rose petals.

Oh, there's a towel animal. It's getting romantic. Oh, I hear jazz music, you know? Oh, I see people on the beach having dinner. That's romantic, you know, but, but what I'm hearing mostly when I talk to people is, is there is this, like, you hit, you hit upon it by saying there's a sweetness, but it's like a sweet, it's like, I mean bones, what's the context for the bones being romantic?

[00:15:47] Michael: She just really likes bones, you know? And so she, a few bones, what she, she doesn't like, she hasn't actually sent me bones. Oh, I, I sent her, you know, I'm like, look, I found these bones, or this moss or this weird rock, and you know, this, like, for her, that's way more romantic.

[00:16:03] Luna: Okay. So let's step into your mind.

Tell us about your creative parts that bring you big joy. Like what gets you excited these days?

[00:16:11] Michael: So it is, lately I've been enjoying joking that people are like, what do you do? Like, what was today? And I was like, well, mostly it was just me paying attention to my feelings, you know? And so I, I think that like, the reason that it's fun to joke about is because like, I kind of do that.

It's like half of what I end up doing. Yeah. Like, I've got two hours of emails. What I really need is like two hours of the emails and two hours for my feelings about the emails, you know, Uhhuh. Yeah. And I, I think that that's what drew me into, um, acting, you know, specifically, you know, and creativity in general, you know, is that, uh, it, it was less about I want to be able to put on that kind of show, you know, and more, you know, I want access to that part of myself.

Mm. You know, and, and that sort of has been the in, so like if I zoom out, like what inspires me creatively, it's kinda anything that gives me an opportunity, you know, to pay attention and kind of get in there into my fields and, you know, be the kind of feelings monster that I wanna be. Yeah. And, and I've been doing it long enough that, yeah, of course.

It's like also satisfying to do a thing that is, that I'm skilled at, that is familiar that I put, so I still absolutely do love performing and I'm in doing a couple of like, creative performance projects right now, but it's not really the act of being on stage, you know, that is the thing that I'm like, oh, that's what I live for.

You know? It's the opportunity to explore this stuff as and, and call that a job.

[00:17:50] Luna: Yeah. I was just gonna say, what do you think of this noodle of describing our evolution, you know, side by side? Over the past decade, we both still continue our exploration of feelings and relationships, you know, which is how we met in class together, but now we do it in way more aspects of our life and work.

[00:18:12] Michael: Yes.

[00:18:12] Luna: Yeah. We're like, like I can't, I can't just do this in rehearsal or wait to get picked on a show or in a thing. Like I, I am living an entire life where I'm just practicing these skills all the time and like, how do we go deep? Because you like depth too, is my, um, you like it. And also you're one of the few people that like wants to be as deeply and endlessly curious about human patterns as, as me.

You know, that's why you're my, yeah. That's why we're such good

[00:18:36] Michael: noodle friends.

[00:18:37] Luna: Number one noodle friends status. Um, also, just to be clear, number one is not high bar. It's not like you're my first noodle friend. That's my second. I have many number one noodle friends. But it just means, it just means like top noodle will go deep.

We'll also tell me when noodles are overcooked and need to get off the pot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would love to hear, because you are also a person who is someone I admire in this realm. How do you woo. You, I think you take overall very good care of yourself and you've been learning to listen to what you need to nourish yourself.

Mm-hmm. So like how do you show yourself

[00:19:15] Michael: love? Moving slowly, you know, taking a good care of my body. You know, it's, it's about like, right? It's like, it's a pretty straightforward system, this delicate flower, right? Like, yeah, it's a delicate flower, but like if I give it what it needs, then like, everything's kind of great.

[00:19:32] Luna: Which is impressive in this modern world where it's kind of difficult to do the basic human thing sometimes.

[00:19:37] Michael: Yes. Oh yeah. No. Like it's, it's like a halftime job. Yeah. The, but even when I am under a lot of stress, this is something that intellectually I know about myself, like I can, I can lose sight of it, you know, when there's other things like causing anxiety and taking my attention.

But if I take impeccable care of myself, I can function well, kind of no matter what's going on. And, but for me, that like, taking impeccable care of myself means getting, you know, the appropriate amount of sleep, uh, what I eat, and it's, uh, about exercise. It's about human connection, you know? And then, you know, there's probably like a piece of having an outlet for creativity and expression, you know, which for me, sort of most reliably is, is dance, you know?

But I can also find that through like, journaling. So yeah, there's an element of not just like you being creative, you know, but being, you know, in connection with others, you know, with it that is like important and deeply nourishing.

[00:20:32] Luna: Mm.

[00:20:33] Michael: Oh, I also wanna circle back to something about romance. Is that okay?

[00:20:36] Luna: Always.

[00:20:37] Michael: So the, I have a, I have a buddy who's a physicist, you know, uh, somebody who, uh, one of my like poly success stories because we dated briefly and then she got into long a monogamous relationship with her long-term best friend, and we just like transitioned effortlessly into being very good friends.

It was like, it doesn't always work out. So it's like, really we're celebrating like, I love this person. And, um, we were talking about romance a couple of years ago and I was like, yeah, I think romance is a combination of extremely like, sort of super normally high valuation of, you know, and future projection, right?

So that high

[00:21:10] Luna: valuation, the person of, of the

[00:21:12] Michael: other person, yeah. So it's like this person is not just like, awesome. They're more than normally awesome, you know? And then some amount, amount of like future projection where it's like, and you know, like where, whether it's art articulated or not, it's like, oh, then they're gonna keep being awesome forever.

You know, or they're gonna just, they're gonna be keeping more awesome. And my friend, the physicist, it was like, that's very cynical and let me share my thoughts about romance. And so in that conversation, I like really found my idea of romance shifted because. She shared that her impression of romance is that romance is a, a story that you arrive at with another person.

Mm. You know, and, and the, you know, I think that that's her experience, you know, in her relationship, you know, but also she's like, when you meet a couple that's been together for 20 years, like the best, the closest couples, they, of course they want to tell you how they met, but they, they like, they, they want to like tell you the story.

They wanna reinvest in the story. Like, you know what, what makes it romantic is that the two of you agree on the story of specialness, and then you're like, continuing to support that and layer into it. Yeah. And I, I really like that. So that's different from the sort of like sweetness that makes me say like, this activity feels romantic.

Yeah. You know, this is more about like, okay, like what is a romantic connection versus another kind of connection. So it's maybe like hair splitting for language, you know? But. The, I think that romance is, or can be that like shared story of specialness that you arrive at together and then like slowly build over time.

Now whether you just like landed it instantly and you're like, yeah, that's the story. It works for both of us. Or whether you like slowly work your way there. Yeah. That, that feels like a more compassionate and also like a more robust approach to romance, you know, than my kind of like cynical dismissal of it.

[00:23:07] Luna: I love that. Also, based on your tone of voice. I did not catch the cynicism until you identified it in the story. I was like, yes, they'll keep being special forever. That was probably a human fallacy, but that is how we operate. Mm-hmm. Good point. So I didn't even like clock the cynicism. Yes. You know, and I think it's a, I think it's an apt frame and I love the idea, you know, it comes back to the idea of being relational, but it's like are agreed upon special story and how instructive too.

'cause as I think about dating people as a unicorn, or even encountering people through work, when I'm like, okay, so how did you meet? There's like a huge difference between the people that like share, you know, the love that's in their connection and the people that are just like college, you know, it's like it.

Yes. And they're like, you know, and I'll tell you which one then I'm more likely to have a threesome with because, yes. Because, because if I, I think too, I've been thinking about romance in all kinds of different ways, but I think sometimes about how it's like. Relational lubricant, like it's arousing it.

Mm-hmm. It provides like a nice texture and it just creates this like, yeah. Space for smoothness and softness and sweet, you know, it is sweet, but it, it is that like, it's a co-creation for sure. Are you romantic with your yourself? Like, is that, does that exist in your self love? I'm like, does that exist in mine?

Fresh noodle? Am I romantic with myself? I don't think I would count it as that.

[00:24:38] Michael: It doesn't feel that way to me, but I think if you're observing it from the outside, it certainly looks like it.

[00:24:42] Luna: That's true.

[00:24:43] Michael: I definitely light candles and run myself a hot bath every night.

[00:24:47] Luna: I was literally just gonna say, 'cause like I do like candles, in instance, I do run a hot bath.

And if I were to be like, I'm being romantic with myself, like maybe that, maybe that could be fun.

[00:24:57] Michael: I'm following pleasure. Yeah. You know? Right. So the, so there's definitely a, like, being gentle with myself, I'm definitely like focusing on, you know, aesthetic or physical pleasure. Like those are definitely things that I do.

I, I don't know, maybe for me, romance is relational,

[00:25:16] Luna: right? I mean, that's, that's, I'm like laughing at my own question. 'cause I'm like, how do you woo you? It's like, well I don't have to woo me 'cause I'm just here with me all the time. But I'm like, maybe I could romance myself more. No, but I, but

[00:25:26] Michael: yeah, but maybe the question is like, you know, how do you, how are you nice to yourself?

It's good. I can answer that. No problem. Mean

[00:25:31] Luna: the, the second half is just like, what about self-love? But, but I think it's just very fun to say how do you woo you and I know it should be yourself, but saying you woo you is very funny. Yeah,

[00:25:42] Michael: no, it makes you happy.

[00:25:43] Luna: So maybe that's how I'm wooing myself. You should

[00:25:45] Michael: just happen over and over again.

[00:25:46] Luna: I was gonna say maybe that is me

[00:25:48] Michael: wooing me by being you. Yeah. Look at that face. Like anything that gives you this much joy definitely should recur.

[00:25:53] Luna: I love to say silly words out loud. So tell us, how do other people woo you? Like what, what comes long before love is wooing? Like how do you get interested in someone.

[00:26:05] Michael: They woo me through communicating like verbally or non-verbally. You know, that what I'm sending their way is like actively engaging for them.

[00:26:17] Luna: Mm.

[00:26:18] Michael: I'm a big fan of voice messages, you know, and I, I have been for a really long time, you know, even pre pandemic, but then in the pandemic, so much more so because I was like living on a little island.

I was very isolated messages, just a very normal habit, you know? First, like flirting with somebody, you know, and they, they're like, oh, um, I don't know if I'm really into voice messages. And then they're like, oh, I loved that 15 minute voice message. And then like, you fast forward a couple of months and they leave, are leaving me 15 minute voice messages.

I'm like, okay, this, this, like, I'm, I'm getting, this person is willing to extend themselves into something that's unfamiliar, you know, because I love this. Like, I love to not just see text, but like hear the tone of voice and the context and get it imperfectly and you know, they have to say, well this actually, uh, okay, uh, it may feel, I feel like I should delete this, but I'm gonna send it to you because I know you love this shit.

And I'm just like, yes, I do. I do love this. That's exactly what I love. Thank you. You know? Uh, and so that is like one way for me to be wooed, and that is like utterly consistent sort of cross, like in a, in a relationship anarchy way that like, um, is sort of like friend romance or person romance, you know?

Like that's, that's totally, you know, a way to woo me is, uh, you like open sharing, you know, and positive reinforcement. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, oh, this thing that you said or did it, I really liked it and it felt this way to me. I'm like, ah,

[00:27:55] Luna: I love that. Also, if I had to answer this question for you, I think, I mean all of the things you've said, yes, that tracks, but I think I would've summed it up by saying.

Invite him to tea to talk about feelings and desires and what overlap you might have.

[00:28:12] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. There you go.

[00:28:13] Luna: Yes. Yeah. And then maybe be like, I've always been curious about Shavar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or at least that's what I've been, that's what I've been planning for myself when I do come visit Sunday.

Well, and

[00:28:25] Michael: like, it, like erotically, you know, if somebody is, um, willing to be soft, you know, with me I find that it's enormously attractive.

[00:28:34] Luna: Mm. I love

[00:28:36] Michael: that. Right. And, and so that, that is like, I don't know if that's wooing, but it definitely is enticing.

[00:28:41] Luna: Yeah.

[00:28:41] Michael: Right. Like wooing to me, you know, seems like active, you know?

[00:28:46] Luna: Isn't that interesting? Right. And, and this is an interesting question too, because I think in heteronormative society. Boys are the ones who do the wooing typically. You know, even if there are all of the other secret signals that do happen both directions, like, uh, I really can't stay, but you know, like, yeah, I can, I couldn't possibly, um, but I'm going

[00:29:09] Michael: to lean forward and

[00:29:12] Luna: will you please just grab me so I can't leave?

Yeah. You know, and, and that's, and that's something that's been, I mean, a lot of the origin of this podcast is me being like, Hmm, people are so confusing. Their actions are a little bit opposite from their words, and I'm not sure what's going on here, but why am I getting rejected sexually? Because he said he

[00:29:28] Michael: couldn't stay, but there was this thing happening with his body and then he grabbed me and what is happening and what is being a human.

[00:29:35] Luna: Yeah, totally. Um, I also want to admit to you, because, you know, going back to the voice memo thing a couple clicks ago and reflecting on my own experience in conversational patterns with you, I have to admit, and I'm just gonna admit it publicly, I recently had an experience with a friend who I am becoming closer to, like, and, and I was going to show this friend something that was work related and I was feeling like a little bit private about it, but also very excited to share.

But I was like, okay, so before you see this, and I said like five different disclaimers and my friend goes, whatever is about to come out of your mouth is. Already gonna be top tier. Fantastic. Because all of these disclaimers leading up to it are so intriguing. Like I'm intrigued and I was, and I just.

Went bright red and like almost dissolved laughing because I was like, oh my God. Like if I were listening in the instances, especially with you where I have been listening to someone else who's giving all sorts of like details before they give the actual subject, like I get really mad. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Just tell me. And so I had this like moment very recently where someone was like, oh my God, you're giving so many details before the actual thing. But I was met with just like curiosity, compassion, and gentleness. And I know there've been so many times where I've been like, Michael, what are you talking about?

[00:31:08] Michael: I love you. I, I know this about you and I, I want your nervous system to be calm.

[00:31:15] Luna: I am like, please answer it in an order where I can have a subject and then attach all the details. And if you do this, I will listen. Have conversations

[00:31:22] Michael: that involve some very sharp, like, why are you telling me this? Why, why,

[00:31:27] Luna: why are you saying this?

What am I supposed to do with this information right now? Oh

[00:31:31] Michael: God, I don't know. I, I, I'm on a long wander through the linguistic wilderness and I feel like there's a goal, but, uh, but I don't know actually where that spot is on the

[00:31:42] Luna: map. But I, all of that is to say I too am growing and softening and, um, you know, I now love receiving voice memos from you.

And there was a point in time where I was like, I already have to listen to so many things. Like, what are we doing? Like I remember that very clearly, not understanding how or why you loved it so much. Like, I don't think, I, I don't think that was clear to me before. And so, um, I. Hmm. I just, uh, went out myself there.

And also That's cute. Yeah. Thank you. Share that with you because that was a fresh experience. And I, and I was thinking only of you, I was like, oh my God. I definitely have been rude at Michael for the same thing, but I too do as a human.

[00:32:25] Michael: I know, man. I, I've got an almost 16-year-old, you know, and the things that drive me nuts are, so many of them are things he picked up from me.

[00:32:34] Luna: No, I mean, relatable. Yep. Don't be like me. I already have to deal with this part. I do that all the time. Okay. Is there anything else to say about what you like to receive from other humans that just make you feel kinda good and melty

[00:32:50] Michael: vulnerable sharing, like effusive, uh, positive reinforcement is definitely like very impactful, you know, on me.

And when I, you know, like I pair well with people who have praise kinks.

[00:33:01] Luna: Yeah. Parallel praise kinks is good

[00:33:04] Michael: because, uh, because I kind of can't help myself, but like, I am very affirming and if I'm with somebody who like, gets all melty and is like, oh my God, yay. Like every time I'm just like, you are so good.

You know, then like, we're, we're gonna be fine, like then.

[00:33:19] Luna: Oh, interesting. Wait, so you're answering this receiving question as a, if they can, if you get to receive them receiving your praise K Or also if they're appraising you. Is it both?

[00:33:29] Michael: No. More like if they, if they have a praise kink. Yeah. Because it, people with praise kinks are just like so affirming about, you know, like basically the, the way that I behave just by existing Yeah.

Happens to, seems to like push the buttons of people with praise kinks. So I get enormous positive reinforcement with like very, very little like personal effort.

[00:33:49] Luna: I love that. You deserve it. Yeah, you definitely deserve it. Thank you. You're so good at that. Okay. Uh,

[00:33:59] Michael: okay. And then I have a, I have a crush on somebody in my community right now, you know?

Uh, so this also isn't like, you know, it's not wooing and it's not enticing because I think she actually just moves through the world like this, you know? But it's, the way that she occurs for me is like, she's just, she's flirting every time we're having a conversation. Mm-hmm. You know, she's like, like her body language is really open and like she, her voice is such, she makes a lot of eye contact.

She bites her lip because it's like, but then I've seen her talk to other people like that. I want her to ask me like, where the bathroom was. And she did it like that. Like I've seen her sing to a group of people and she did it like that. So like, I think this is just like how she exists and, and it's fascinating to be like, wow, I am being fully manipulated by a set of unconscious behaviors, but I'm still kind of here for it because it is so good for me

[00:34:53] Luna: just to see what happens.

Oh, interesting. Oh wait, what's the good for you part? Like, just 'cause it feels so good and like nourishing. Yeah. It just feels

[00:34:59] Michael: really good to be, have it pointed at me.

[00:35:01] Luna: I love that. Do you think a smiling part of that? Because I'm like, this might resonate a little bit, is me wearing boobs and ass 'cause of my short shorts.

Like, and then just smiling and friendly is 'cause Is there a difference between friendly and flirting?

[00:35:16] Michael: Um, yeah,

[00:35:18] Luna: it's,

[00:35:19] Michael: yeah, it's gray. That's gray for sure. Yeah. You know, like, is is, you like being hot and walking through the world and like smiling at people in like an open, you know, way gonna like trigger people's, like flirting association.

Yeah, for sure. Of course. I mean, I

[00:35:31] Luna: get a lot of nice treatment in this world for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly

[00:35:35] Michael: right. Like, and okay man, you know, like, what's great is that, like, that doesn't seem to bother you. And

[00:35:40] Luna: I think I do come personally, I know that I, I can't speak for this woman 'cause, 'cause part of me is like, well, maybe there's a built-in, maybe, you know, like with me, I feel like there's always a little bit of like, although I've now made a promise to myself that I will no longer jump straight into bed with people I just meet on the street.

Not that I've ever done it right away, but, um, I don't need to meet street people in bed anymore.

[00:36:00] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it helps with this person is like actively, you know, interested in being tied up by me, you know? So there there is some expression of like direct interest. Yeah. You know, it's just not, it's not a, you know, um, you know, so there's like a, enough of a thread of maybe in our actual communication, you know, um, the, you know, but, you know, and so I, I said at the beginning that there is like an unhealthy, you know, uh, you know, pattern that I'm aware of in terms of my enticement.

If somebody is. Um, like one of the only things that really triggers, you know, what I think of as, uh, like if you anxious, you know, or like pursuing behavior in a way that feels very uncomfortable but is very activating, is if somebody's like abusively present and then gone. Oh yeah. So like, you are amazing.

Yeah. You're so, oh, I just, I love everything you're doing. I'm so here for it. Here's this juicy, vulnerable conversation and connection. Poof. Yeah. And then, you know, they, you know, and then a week later there's like, oh, I'm just really busy, but like, you are great. You know, dude, like nothing gets me into that like, anxious seeking space like that.

And so like, I understand why, you know, there's a sort of an entire category of dating books aimed at monogamous people that are basically trying to teach them how to do that to somebody on purpose, you know, because it certainly is very effective at capturing my attention. It's

[00:37:30] Luna: like a slot machine. You don't know when it's gonna hit.

Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:33] Michael: In reward. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like most dopaminergic thing you can do to a brain you like, very uncomfortable.

[00:37:40] Luna: Yeah. No, thank you. On the flip side, what sort of connection do you need to feel or enjoy feeling in order to transition a relationship from friendly into like naked, friendly, sexy.

[00:37:57] Michael: I don't need a lot of, you know, difference there. You know, like I, I really like sex. I really like touching, you know, I, I experience, you know, a lot of responsive desire. So for your suggestion, I am listening to, uh, come together, you know, and I, I've read burnout. I love burnout. I've read, it's on my, you know, bookshelf.

Like I love Emily Naski. And I definitely have used the ideas of spontaneous desire and responsive desire, you know, but I don't know if I had the clarity of spontaneous desire is anticipating pleasure and responsive desires, responding to pleasure, you know, because I, when people have asked me like, what does that responsive desire mean, I think I've gotten kind of like tangled in the.

If I am like snuggling with somebody who I think is attractive and I have a pr pretty like broad range of, you know, what I think is attractive and they start kissing my neck, like, it's fine, let's take our clothes out.

[00:39:02] Luna: And I know that you have certain requirements, like your baselines are high though.

Like what do you need in order to feel safe? You know? 'cause it's really, 'cause 'cause truly I know that it's not just anything. Like I know that you have a little bit more, no, it

[00:39:17] Michael: can't be just like somebody attractive, you know, I meet it. Well, okay, maybe it's like that has happened before, but

[00:39:21] Luna: sometimes we do fuck people we meet on the street and it's not the same day, but it's a couple days later sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. And then

[00:39:28] Michael: we learn from it. Like, what are those safety indicators for me? Like what,

[00:39:33] Luna: what makes you feel cozy enough to be like, yes, I will get naked with you?

[00:39:38] Michael: Well, so here's the thing is I'm, this is what place that I think that I'm, I am, you know, generally like, so excited about getting naked, you know, with people, you know, that I don't always, uh, track is, do I have enough connection present that like, I feel like my vulnerability is held and allowed here.

You know? And so I, I definitely can get into an expert where experience, where I like have what is like a very hot experience, but then I crash afterwards because I, 'cause I'm, I'm holding myself so much, you know, in that and so. They like when it's good. It's like this person is genuinely interested, you know, in my messy, vulnerable human bits.

Mm. Right. And, and it's like, if I get the impression that somebody is not okay with those things, you know, or is gonna be in any way judgmental about those things, you know, or even just kind of like doesn't have the space for those things. Yeah. You know, if I think they're attractive enough, sometimes I can put myself in a situation where, you know, I make out with that person or have sex with that person anyway.

You know? But generally speaking, that feels bad after.

[00:40:46] Luna: Yeah. I totally get that.

[00:40:47] Michael: Not because of the experience or anything, but because like my belly tightens and then I get into performance, I'm being kind of performative in that situation.

[00:40:55] Luna: Mm. Which is not usually as hot.

[00:40:57] Michael: No, exactly. And I'm, I'm perf what I'm, what am I performing?

I'm performing confidence. I'm performing, like being the like hot, powerful person who can facilitate an experience. But like a number of times, you know, I've met somebody, you know, who really was excited about power play and could communicate well about that with me. We've decided to have that experience together, you know, and then afterwards, you know, I felt like, oh, there's nothing personal to me in that experience.

Right? Like this, this person, this person wanted to have an experience. They chose me to facilitate it for them, you know, like even if they had a good time and were grateful for it, I wasn't here and present as a person, you know? I'm like, I'm not being valued for myself. I'm just being valued because I'm providing an experience they wanted to have.

I'm, I'm just like, okay, they wanna go on a rollercoaster and I'm rollercoaster.

[00:41:49] Luna: Right. Well that's like in more than two they talk about treating a human being as a need fulfillment machine. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so it's like, and, and I'm, I'm noticing the parallel in my life is I have been seeking out and creating containers where I feel that all of me is welcome and or, you know, per the agreement that we're create.

Like, it's like I am only fucking partners at this point who love that. I love sexual variety, you know, or who are at least, um, comfortable enough with it to, you know, really make it worth my while to like, engage in Yeah. And to, and to really like embrace this part of me that, um, scares the shit outta some people.

So it's like feeling like I'm welcome here is kind of what I, what I'm projecting on to what you're saying. Like, feeling like all of you is welcome and valued

[00:42:38] Michael: and, you know, is that something that we can either ever like, fully know about somebody? Maybe not, but like, but this, but, but feeling like I am welcome here and I definitely can still have contraction.

Yeah. And I can even have moments, you know, that are sticky where I'm like, oh, this, this part of who I am actually is challenging for this person. We can talk through that. Right.

[00:43:00] Luna: Yeah. Well, I, I think there's a difference between like, I am, I'm welcome to be a challenge even, you know, I'm welcome to share in fullness and connect with the other person.

And like, I also am, like, if I'm in a relationship where there are zero challenges, it's not super conducive to, to the type of growth that I as a human being value experience, you know? Because for me, even everything sex related, there still is like a challenge, a game, you know, in, in pursuit of, um, all the experience.

Like there still are challenges available at every turn, you know, whether they're, I

[00:43:34] Michael: think an, an, uh, ongoing conversation, uh, with, uh, lover right now. Um, you know, somebody who has, has been my lover on and off for, you know, four years, you know? And you know, one of the things that you know, has been really like special or interesting about that, you know, is that we don't have a lot of conversation in between, like with this one person specifically, you know, I've been like, well, it keeps feeling really like good and special and alive and we don't send long voice notes.

And it's been really like, totally fine to, for me to check in with her and say, you know, hey, you know, well, like, what's going on in life? And just not hear back for a couple of months. And it's like. And, and it has been fine. You know, and we, we don't allocate like a ton of focused time together. It's just like when I'm in the city where she is, you know, I reach out sometimes and we spend a few hours together and we play together and it's like, so it's the closest to just like a clear play partner, you know, that I think I've had especially consistently.

So Really? Yeah, it's been really enjoyable and. Recently, you know, she reached out, you know, and was like, Hey, I need to have a conversation. You know? And it, it became clear that like it wasn't working for her. Mm. You know, and she didn't quite have the words for it, you know, and, and what came out initially was, you know, I want more, like, I want you to focus time on me.

I want you to like go, like, I want this sort of like having time and playing together and then going our separate ways. Like, that's not what I want. I want more. You know? And, you know, it was, it's been a really interesting, like navigating ambiguity, you know, uh, to, because it took me a while to like sit with and it was like, uh, and uh, and then I sent her a series of questions of like, okay, here's the story I had about our connection previously.

You know, that like, it was, that it was like special and live, but your life was really full. And so you were content, you know, with like the us seeing each other and then going back to your very full busy life. Like, is that accurate? You know? At what point did you start craving more time together? You know, uh, and is the power dynamic we were playing with, did that constrain you from, like, noticing that you wanted that, or speaking that you wanted that, you know, like sort of how is that impacting this?

And it was challenging for me to find a like compassionate way to. Communicate, Hey, like, I really like you, and like, if, if we want a boyfriend, that's not what we're doing. Like Yeah. Like I literally don't know you well enough to just say yes to doing that. Right. You like, we, we literally do not know each other.

[00:46:17] Luna: Yeah. You know, uh,

[00:46:18] Michael: in that way, you know? And so for her to make a bid for connection, that was like, let's have a whole weekend together where we just talk about life. I'm like, but we, we've, we don't do that. Like that. That'd be, that would be like going to the person on the street and saying like, wanna spend the whole weekend together talking about life.

Which like, I don't, I don't know, you know, like I know that we have really hot sex together and that's really, but, but like, how the hell do you communicate to that? Somebody who's feeling tender? So I really had to like, shape my questions and find a way to say like, help me understand what you mean and like, let me communicate to you that like, here's what I thought we were doing and here's what's really great about it for me.

You know, and if you want to continue to play with this power dynamic, that gives me a way to think about the differences in our lives and the differences in our personalities that, that I can play with and is hot. But if what you want is, you know, just like to have, like, you know, deep relational connection and let anything sexy sort of emerge organically from that, we, I don't think that we have enough connection for that to be viable.

[00:47:17] Luna: Mm. Well, it's also. Completely different from what you have built together. Completely

[00:47:24] Michael: different from what we've been doing. We've been doing this thing that has felt really special to both of us. Yeah. But now it's just like, not working for her. You know? It's like, it's, you know, triggering uncertainty and security in a way that, you know, and so she just responded, you know, like day before yesterday.

And, uh, you know, it's, it's really interesting. Like I'm, I'm, I'm optimistic about, um, like being able to move towards connection. Yeah. You know, so like, some, some things that I think that even she wasn't clear on when she came back and responded, you know, she, she was like, I'm not asking for escalation. I'm not asking, like, I don't need our social lives to be integrated.

I just, you know, here are the insecurities that are coming up for me. You know? And I think that just having chunks of focus time, you know, where, where I can settle and not feel like I need to prove myself is or is gonna help me. And so, so if you want that, then, you know, let's talk about it, you know? And if not, then, you know, maybe this isn't the right thing right now.

[00:48:22] Luna: Mm. And so we're,

[00:48:24] Michael: yeah. And so we're mu we've, we've sort of navigated through the, like, fraught part of it. Yeah. You know, and are, are now in a place of like, she's got a clear ask, you know, uh, like we may, we may try that, you know, and you know, it like may or may not feel good, you know, and I don't think anybody's going to like, feel terrible about it either way.

[00:48:46] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like a really, I. Collaborative connection, you know? Yeah. And, and that there's thoughtfulness happening on both sides. And it's, I mean, I can, I can relate to that. I definitely have had experience with a partner where I'm like, what we do together is so hot, it's so clearly boundaried.

And I have these parts where I'm like, uh, compared to how other people value me, like, not to be comparative, but to be a little comparative. 'cause I see how much other people value me. Like, could you, do you wanna, do you wanna value me or are, am I just showing up? Like, am I a need fulfilling machine? Like what?

You know? And so, yes. And it's not even until I have that feeling that I can figure out how to ask for that, you know? Or if some, something comes up like a, for me, poorly communicated schedule snafus will like, you know, send me into destroyer mode because I'm just like, I can be flexible in practical ways, and if I am surprised and there's an element of stupid to the communication, then I get really, really crinkly, you know?

Um, and I'm, especially because there's so much in my life that's moving parts and pieces that, like, when I make time for someone, it's a big deal. Not, not to be like I'm so fancy, but like a, but like a little bit like my time is, it's Jenga. We all have our, like Jenga towers that we have to, to build. So, okay.

So that's unfolding. I love that. I mean, it sounds like also you're able to stay calm enough in your experience to communicate clearly, to figure out how to move forward together.

[00:50:19] Michael: Thankfully in that connection there has been, uh, spaciousness. Like it has been okay to communicate, you know, I have received this, thank you so much for sending it.

You know, like, I need time to think about how to respond properly, you know? And, and that's, thankfully that's been okay on both sides.

[00:50:34] Luna: Yeah. And also the fact that you're able to like articulate, or it sounds like you sent that as a literal communication instead of just like, yes, silently ghosting for a number of days, or, you know, un unknown amounts of time, or, you know, it's like, yes.

Letting the person know

[00:50:46] Michael: I am trying to do better at that. You know, like I definitely it, like, I think that that's one of my relational challenges, you know, is that, you know, in overwhelm, you know, I can sometimes get into patterns of like dissociation or avoidance. Yeah. You know, and, and just like continuing to remind myself and to process and to internalize like how bad it can feel to like, feel dropped and that, you know, like in practical terms, like sending a single sentence of like, I am overwhelmed, you know, and have received this and we'll talk to you on Thursday.

Yeah. Like, that can sometimes be enough, you know, to like forestall a, like pretty substantial loss of connection Tuesday.

[00:51:26] Luna: Yeah. I, I was gonna say, for me the difference between receiving that is huge. And it is also funny. I mean, I. I think in friendship we have a little more, um, leeway, but also I know that it's like I have the opposite pattern, right?

Like I turn into like an anxiety woodpecker when I don't have all the information and I try to figure out what's happening. And, you know, for the avoiding people who are on the other end of that, it's, uh, it's, it's not, you know, and then I have my own flip, but like, I'm learning to similarly be like, I'm noticing I'm activated and I want to ask you a thousand million questions.

So perhaps we should take a pause for a couple of hours. Look at us. I mean,

[00:52:05] Michael: better

[00:52:05] Luna: not always sometimes, but yes, I, no, me neither.

[00:52:08] Michael: You know, like my, uh, my, my good friend here, uh, they sent me a, sent me a series of turtle emojis, uh, just on Great. On, on Monday. Yeah. Because we have established before that like if I'm very overwhelmed, I could just send a turtle emoji instead of responding.

But I had not, I had not responded to one of her messages. And so she sent me fertile question mark. And then like, I didn't respond to that either. And then she sent me like turtle cucumber, like turtle teapots. So she was like, she was being very cute about it, but she was just basically like, I know you're in distress.

Yeah. And that's why you're not responding to me. What do you need? And it was something, it was all like very cute. Yeah.

[00:52:52] Luna: Oh, I love that. I would love to hear your health and safety practices. How do you communicate with new partners? Like what, what do you need to play safely with people? You are in an actively open lifestyle, so what is that like for you?

[00:53:07] Michael: My agreement with the partner who I've been seeing the longest, you know, is that, you know, we see a fresh test, you know, from any new partner or you know, we have like two weeks. And change kind of between when we play with the new partner, you know, so that we can get a fresh test. Right. So it's like the, that's sort of how we're navigating, you know, the uncertainty and discomfort right now and sort of balancing that and autonomy, you know.

And so because I worked that out, you know, with this partner I've been seeing the longest, that's sort of what I have communicated to or offered to, you know, each of my other partners in the last couple of years, you know? And. You know, it's, it's not without its challenges, you know, but I think that's how we've been navigating.

Like, you have to trust people at some point, you know? And also, like, full autonomy is fun. Like, I want, you know, my partners to be able to like, meet somebody on the street and decide that they wanna have sex with them, and that's fine. Right. I just, I just don't want them to tell me after they've had sex with me, Hey, I had sex with this person I met on the street on Thursday.

Yeah. I wonder about the, all the track marks on his arms. Right? I don't wanna hear about that after I've exposed myself, you know, to a risk, you know, I wanna be like, cool man, that's great. You decided to shoot heroin with a stranger. If that's what you did, that is a thing that you can do. Let's wait a couple of weeks and, and then have you get tested several times and then we can go back to doing all the sexy things together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And, and I, I use that like, sort of sharing a needle with a stranger because I think that it, it lands for people in a different way than like having oral sex. Yeah. You know, but like, but functionally it's not actually different. You know, in terms of risk exposure, it's not actively different, but it feels different, you know?

So, so using the, like needle sharing, uh, you know, has been like a fun way to like, joke about this thing where I'm like, I want you to be able to do that because like any of the people I've dated in the last couple years, they have no interest in sharing a needle with a stranger, you know? And so it's like an easier thing to like, talk about, you know?

But like, if you are putting somebody's bits in your mouth, you know, uh, then it's like, I want you to have seen a fresh test from that person, or I want there to be two weeks, you know, minimum, you know, and then a fresh test before you want, you know, to put my bits in your mouth so that I can, you know, sort of like, that's not a perfect way, you know, like some things definitely do take longer, longer than two weeks.

Like Yeah. You know, like that's, you know, um, but that's how we work out the balance of safety and autonomy. Right. Now

[00:55:55] Luna: also, you have one of the hottest things, which is to me, which is a vasectomy.

[00:55:59] Michael: Yes. You, I I'm definitely taking, you know, one risk, which is the risk of unwanted pregnancy completely off the table for myself and my partners with ovaries.

Yes. Yeah. And, uh, to me that is extraordinarily hot. I

[00:56:12] Luna: love that it makes, it makes Complace so much more, um, safe, fun. I mean, I guess you feel like the thrill of the risk. I don't know. That's part of it, but

[00:56:23] Michael: I have multiple partners now, you know, who were like, Hmm. You know, it's only really hot for me if there's the, the risk.

Like it Okay. I I had two partners. Yeah. One of whom was like, you know, uh, we, after we had sex the first time, you know, communicated that, you know, she was like, I, I didn't realize it, but because there's no chance of making a baby, I'm just not into it. You know? And, and then I had, and then I had a, a different partner, like a, a year in change previous, you know, who.

Like shared with me that like this is the hottest, transgressive thing. And you know that, that sort of, she always thinks about it when she's having sex with a man that like maybe there will be pregnancy. And with that not on the table, like with that not present, like she couldn't get turned on the same way.

So that is a thing that happens for people.

[00:57:12] Luna: I didn't know. This is my first time hearing about that. And also I'm now wondering if I have a streak of, I mean, I think vasectomies are hot, but I'm like, oh, I think I also identify with, like, as I said, I was like, wait, I think, I think I get that thrill sometimes.

I mean, I definitely have had like, yeah, responses to risk situations,

[00:57:30] Michael: but that's, you are have a very broad profile of like enjoying transgressive things. So that doesn't surprise me in this life. Wow.

[00:57:36] Luna: I mean, to go back to Emily Naski, I'm like, yes, responsive desire. I love anticipating everything. That's why having a date on the calendar is so exciting.

'cause I can anticipate it and then I'm like, yes, I have responsive desire. If you are touching me or telling me about something you want or just telling me a story. I'm also a vicar feel or vicar file, um, however you wanna say it. Like, I, I experience vicariously, vicarious turn on through listening to other stories, you know, or, and I mean, general life turn on like, I am aroused, but I also don't always think of this podcast as, I mean, I don't usually think of this podcast as erotica, but I know many listeners do experience it that way.

I don't think we've gotten anything super juicy yet. I mean, well, I don't know. It's all juicy to me, but monsters, but dang well. Okay. Um, since having a vasectomy, do you feel any difference in your own arousal or turn on.

[00:58:26] Michael: No, no, there's zero difference. You know, like, I mean, I, the, I, I cannot overstate like how insanely straightforward a vasectomy procedure is.

Like the whole thing takes less than five minutes. The guy chatted to me the entire time. It, like, I work cold pack in my shorts for two days. Like it's, and it's not like it is, the incision is like three millimeters long. Anybody who's hand ringing about vasectomies is, is hand ringing about like what they mean to that person.

Like in terms of like the actual impact on a physical body. Like the vast deens is like right there on the outside. Like all lady parts are like there, comp, they're hidden inside there. Like the guy part, this, this tube we're talking about is like right there. You know, they're like slice, burn, you know, like glue you up, you're out the door.

Like they, they had like 10 rooms, you know, you and the guy would just like go in, do the next rotation. These vasectomy doctors are just like minting money.

[00:59:31] Luna: Wow, okay. Ooh, that's, I mean, that's a different kind of hot, and now I'm, 'cause I have so many fantasies about lining stuff up, I'm like, ugh, I don't know.

Different. I dunno. And then there's like the part where you get it and then, what is it, six to eight weeks, like eight weeks later, you get to go and like have the room where they're all lined up and you get the healing or the benefit. I don't know. Um, I'm in fantasy land. Okay. Congratulations. This is your prize for getting a vasectomy.

And I'm just like, lab

[00:59:58] Michael: coat. And then you getting the gang bang while still wearing the lab coat. Yeah. Yeah. It's hot. Okay. Um, like I, I totally would watch that.

[01:00:05] Luna: It's where my brain goes. Um, okay. So that's great. Great. Okay, so health and safety. Any other health and safety things? Emotions, talking, you talk about partners.

At what point, like how do you, what do you share before

[01:00:17] Michael: you, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, full transparency, you know, uh, is really my jam. You know, I just, after 15 years of exploring poll in different ways, you know, and like coming to terms with it and you, the, like, I'm, I've got it all figured out, but. Works best for me is total transparency.

Mm-hmm. You know, so I, I don't wanna play with a new partner, you know, without talking about my existing partners without, you know, having a conversation about health and safety. You know, like those things are, are hot, you know, and important for me, you know, because then I'm not thinking about it, you know, like, otherwise I could get swept into a hot experience and then like suddenly partway through, be like, wait, we didn't talk about, you know, some part of this, you know?

And so like, when is this going to, like, is this too risky? Is this gonna be an explosion? Like, you know, I, I don't wanna suddenly be, uh, caught off guard, you know, by that worry.

[01:01:15] Luna: Yeah.

[01:01:15] Michael: And, you know, if there's like, good communication about feelings, you know, then I'm, I, I feel like there's more than the possibility for aftercare is better as well.

Yeah. You know, it's like something that is an active worry for me with new partners, because I, I've had several experiences in the past couple of years, you know, that we're destabilizing, you know, is can this person communicate in real time what they do and do not want, yeah. Right. Like it's as a male bodied person, you know, in a patriarchal society, I think it is, like, it's important for me to pay attention to the fact, you know, that like most of the people who I'm having sex with, because I, they just have sex with like female identified folks generally, you know, are carrying trauma of some kind, you know, most of them, you know, and that compliance, you know, is a like legitimate trauma response.

Mm-hmm. Right? So trauma, like, very unpredictable. It's like, oh, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And then suddenly it's not fine out of nowhere, you know? And that one of the ways that that can manifest, you know, is as a fawn response, where somebody's like, not just like, I'm going along with this, but like, yes, I want this.

Yeah. You know? But it is so destabilizing to have somebody then the next day or the next week. Or the next month say, I know I said I wanted that, but I did not. That was me feeling very, very bad. And you did not notice that I was feeling very, very bad. You know, and it's like, oh my God. That, like, on several layers, that is one of the most destabilizing things for me.

It's like, I don't wanna have a hot experience that is only hot for me. Yeah. I don't want to like, cause harm to another person. You know? And also like, being surprised by that information afterwards, you know, is like, really throws me.

[01:03:04] Luna: Oh yeah. But

[01:03:05] Michael: that triggers shame or can like trigger shame and, and then if I'm in shame, attending to another person who is tender is very challenging.

Yeah. You know, and Right. And so it's like, and and that also is like a, the a thing that sort of needs attention in a patriarchal society where it's like, oh, I'm having so many feelings about being confronted that I need you to not be in your thing and take care of me. It's like, I don't wanna give that to my partner either.

Right. Right. You know, so for me, like a, a safety indicator currently, you know, is like, can somebody say, uh, pause for a second? Oh yeah. No, that, that, that doesn't feel good. I, I like it like this instead. Yeah. You know, and you know, sometimes like that just sort of emerges naturally. You with a partner, you know, but in case it's not going to, or if I'm like front loading, you know, what I'll say is like.

Okay. Do you have safe words you like? Okay. Yeah. Some times people like, yes, I do. But most of the time people are like, huh, you know, or they're like, well, I dunno, whatever, you know? And so I'm like, okay, here's the thing that I really like. What I really like is like, it really helps me feel safe if I know that even when you're in intense sensation, you can tell me when it's too much.

Mm-hmm. And so, something that I think is really hot, but also makes me feel really safe and comfortable, you know, is, you know, we have like a full stop word, but we also have a like, pause check in, or that's, you know, a little too much word, you know, which, and I like mercy because I think that that is still, like, inside a power dynamic is hot.

[01:04:32] Luna: Same.

[01:04:33] Michael: Exactly right. It's hot when somebody says mercy. I mean, if somebody says pause or stop or Whoa, check it. Sure. Of course. But like, does that sort of pop out of the power dynamic? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. You know, like, and you know, for safety reasons, dude, pop out anytime you want. But if you want me to keep, you know, feeling this like hot, sexy way that we both like and be able to communicate, Hey, here's a way you could do that, that is hot for me.

Yeah. You know? And so then I'll be like, on purpose, like the first time I do something, you know, that has like a little bit of intensity, like spanking is you my, usually my go to for this one, I was very slowly escalate on purpose until they say mercy. Mm-hmm. And I'll, I'll communicate that beforehand. So the first time I do this thing, I'm gonna start very, very gentle and then I'm gonna slowly escalate until I hear you.

And then I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna celebrate the fact that you, you, uh, used your word. I'm gonna celebrate the fact that you can, and that you want, like every time you're like, whoa, hey, pause, let's stop. I'm gonna really celebrate you. And that for me is part of like, I think that that leads to the kind of sexy experience I wanna have.

But I also think that's me being a good feminist, you know, is like I'm gonna celebrate the no. Because the fear usually is, you know, uh, I'm gonna say no when something bad is gonna happen. Mm-hmm. And so I'm gonna do the opposite on purpose. 'cause that costs me nothing. Yeah, yeah. Right. So easy. Just be like, fuck.

Yeah. Great. Thank you so much for this. No, I'm so like, proud of you. I'm so glad that you can do this. This makes me feel so safe and good. You are awesome for your no. You know. And then does that make space for people generally to like find the thing that is hot for them and relax into it? Yeah, usually.

[01:06:18] Luna: I fucking love that.

And I'm so glad that you kind of like naturally segued toward. I am a big, huge fan of the conversations that you have had over the years with partners. Like you are one of the people who I use as a touchstone for just like getting clear on sexy desires ahead of time. And what's your current method?

Like, I know that there are definitely were eras of like lists the spreadsheet. Yeah. Like,

[01:06:43] Michael: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I, I have, I've done the spreadsheet. I don't do the spreadsheet currently. You know, like I, I have, I have a, a lover, uh, who is like, you used to do a spreadsheet. I want the spreadsheet. Yeah, send me the spreadsheet.

That's why I sent it spreadsheet. But like, she hasn't filled it out yet. It's a big, we're already having sex and it's fine. You know, the, um, but she really wanted the spreadsheet and then she was very excited about looking at it. The, yeah, I, I don't use the spreadsheet currently because I think what I, what I most want or wanted in the spreadsheet, you know, is like, what are the hard nos?

You know, like, what are the things that you never want me to do and what are the things that like you absolutely. Like, need or crave or want. It's like, those are the most important things for me to know. Yeah. You know, and then everything else is like, we can like talk about it in a sexy situation or not in a sexy situation is fine for that to emerge.

Mm.

[01:07:38] Luna: Right. But they're like,

[01:07:39] Michael: there's so many curious, there's so many ies. Yeah. That if, basically if I send a spreadsheet that's got like 200 curious, I'm not even gonna remember them all. Oh, yeah. Know I, you're like, like, you know, and so what I, what I end up looking for on the spreadsheet is like, what are the hard nos?

Okay, great. You know, you never want to be pinched, you know, like you always want your nipples to be like very, very gently touched. 'cause they're so sensitive, you know? Uh, you don't want me to like, play with your ass. Okay. Like the, those are your great fun. Awesome. I'm so happy to know this rather than to like accidentally run into it in a situation where you are gonna be worried about my feelings, you know, for telling me no in real time.

Like, I, I don't want either of us to have that experience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then for most people, like, it's actually unusual for my partners to be able to articulate beforehand. Mm-hmm. Here are the things I must have. Yeah. Like, they're like, oh, like no matter what, I really need this, you know, in, in the context of like meeting people through a dating app, like sometimes that will be like a context for connection.

Like somebody will, yeah. Will like, will match with me because they want power play or because they wanna be tied up or, you know, so it's like, so the, the sort of need to haves are kind of led with a little bit more in that environment in a way that I find helpful. But I think for most people, like identifying the need to, you know, is, uh, is trickier, you know?

So that's like a very long-winded way of, of answering like, how do I have this conversation right now? I, I talk about safe words, you know, and stop words, you know, I talk a little bit about aftercare. I definitely will like ask some version, you know, of, you know, like, what do you like? Unless the person's sort of vibe is like really, you know, sort of responsive and nonverbal, in which case, you know, I'll just explore.

You know, and if it's somebody who I don't have like a sort of robust human connection with, then I will say, you know, sort of like, what are your hard nos? You know, like, you know what, like, you know, what are the things you want? But the way that I love asking the what do you want question is how do you wanna feel?

Because I, I'm not really as interested in what do you wanna do? Okay. Right. Like, like what, what do you wanna do? Feels, um, like mechanical to me. Mm. Right. You, I would like your cock in this spot. And I would like, yeah. It's like, okay, cool man. It's like, you can want that. But like that, that, that story is not hot to me and it doesn't fill me with like, playfulness and power and curiosity, you know, the way that I want.

It feels like now I'm a needs meeting machine. Right. You know? And, and I don't want that experience for either of us. The person who, you know, I have a crush on who, you know, behaves in this like ridiculous, flirty with the world way, you know? Uh, when she reached out, uh, I reached out, you know, to her and was like, Hey, do you wanna be tied up next week?

Which like, for me was very bold. 'cause like, I don't know this person very well, and I had no idea if that was gonna be received. And she and weirdly, like, she got immediately back to me like, great, yeah, I'm free every evening next week. Like when works for you. Oh, oh, okay, great. You know, and so we, and, and so again, I don't know this person very well, so we've had this conversation by text where she's like, what should I expect?

What should I wear? You know? And, and so I was like, well, the first time, expect as much talking is tying. You know, and that's when I, I included the like, how do you wanna feel? Like, can give me some feeling words? And she said, I want surrender. I was like, great, cool man. You know, like we can definitely collaborate on that.

Would you be willing to give me some other feeling words? And then like, and then for context, I was like, I want to feel, you know, powerful and playful and curious and sensual. And then she responded like in a way that was much clearer where I was like, oh, that's the kind of surrender you want to feel like surrender can be full passivity.

It can also be like highly ero. Like, I don't, I have no fucking idea what experience this person wants to have, you know, until asking for, you know, those detailed feeling words, you know? But that to me feels creative and feels curious where I'm like, okay, what, what is gonna help this person feel this flavor of surrendered that, you know, that's something that we can investigate both in conversation and physically

[01:11:44] Luna: when asking a person like what they need.

It really is you're finding effectiveness through feeling words. I feel like I would not give a good answer unless, and quote unquote good answer, unless I was cued with the types of emotions. And even then I would struggle because I think as I'm hearing you talk, I'm like. I need to feel like we can authentically explore in the moment for the comfort of our boundaries.

And so then I do wanna get hung up on activities. Like I really, I really am clocking this part of my brain as you talk, which is so interesting.

[01:12:14] Michael: Right. Well, I mean, the context is like the, the, like if you've have, if, if you've had the hard nos and the, like, you really juicy guesses Yeah. Conversation already.

Then the conversation is like with, uh, it's not like in general always. It's with this person, with this person today, this

[01:12:27] Luna: person. Okay, okay. Okay.

[01:12:27] Michael: In this moment, how do you wanna feel? And that's, that conversation is like, it changes every single time. Like it's always, even though I asked her by text, I'm still gonna ask her if she comes over to the house to be tied up.

[01:12:39] Luna: Yeah.

[01:12:39] Michael: Because it might be different that day.

[01:12:41] Luna: Well, in your juicy yeses, I imagine change partner to partner. Mine do.

[01:12:48] Michael: Totally.

[01:12:48] Luna: Yeah, exactly.

[01:12:49] Michael: It's like, you know, it's, it's not, it's not a question that exists in a vacuum. It's not like, how do I wanna feel? Always, it's like, how do I wanna feel with this person?

[01:12:57] Luna: You kind of gave us a hint, but. What is sexy to you?

[01:13:03] Michael: Anything that that carries the, even the like faintest whiff of like anticipating or responding to pleasure, you know, I can refer to as sexy. So something that is like explicitly sexual. Somebody's, you know, who's like, here is a hot picture of me. Yeah.

Great. It's like clearly unambiguously sexy. Somebody's like, this is my body and I know you like to touch it. Yes. Very sexy. Somebody who's like, I am thinking about you and you know, just here in my bed. It's like, okay, good. Also like very explicitly sexy. Yeah. But like, but even like, even the hint of that, like I got a voice message from somebody who's like.

Maybe flirting with me. It's unclear. Like I'm, I'm living in a small community right now, so I'm moving very carefully. Mm. You know, I, I don't want to be like, greedy slut that I want to be you because I'm in a small town and I'm gonna say the same, the same people at like, literally everything forever. So I'm like, cool man.

I've just been like slowly, you know, getting to know this person, you know, who like, I think it's pretty clear that like she wants to flirt with me, but also maybe has some ambiguous feels about it. And so it's like, it's just, it's a fun, like, very thin thread of maybe, and she left me a voice message the other day, and at the end of it she was like, sending a hug and anyway, goodnight.

Like, like, like we haven't gone into like anything yet, but it was like, it was enough that like the next day I drafted a message, you know, that said, like, that was very provocative pause. Like, what did late night you was late night, you, uh, not to say the impulse deity besides a hug, but then I sat with the message and I was like, I, I'm not quite ready to, to like, that was a really great opening and I experienced that as sexy.

But I'm not quite ready, you know, to like take this like very clear, like handed to me on a silver platter, uhhuh, you know, like provocative flirt opening yet.

[01:15:07] Luna: Yeah. That track. That makes sense. Oh, ooh. Well, and then, I don't know, I projecting this also kind of like, the anticipation of that is sexy. Like the being patient enough, the having awareness of community, which is lacking in a lot of places, especially larger cities these days.

You know, like having to, having, having that thought, the tension that it's drawn out because of the, the carefulness. I love that.

[01:15:35] Michael: Yeah. You know, and, and, and for me, um, like the, I definitely sort of share with you like a delight in, in variety, you know, and like, you know, like sexual variety, you know, and it's definitely something that I can sometimes have trouble expressing to partners as I have my own, like in shame or have my own story about like, what does it mean to be a man who wants to have sex with lots of people?

Okay. But it means that like being in a place where there's even just like some little threads of maybe floating around, even if we never do anything about them, that I find very energizing.

[01:16:16] Luna: Oh, I totally get that. I'm like. I don't have to see everything through, particularly if it's not a top-notch circumstance, but just feeling the threads of possibility, I think is very enlivening.

Yes. I don't think I knew that it was difficult for you to express that. Why? Or do you wanna practice or do you wanna hear how I tell people? 'cause I don't struggle with that. I'm like, this is me.

[01:16:43] Michael: I, I think it's because I have judgment, you know, of men who sort of unambiguously pursue sex with everyone around them.

Right. You know, and so I, I think that, you know, some, like, some of it, you know, is that it's like if I embrace this part of myself, do I become that thing that I am, that I actually am like quite critical of, you know, in the world. Like the, like where is there, where's the gray there? You know, also my experience in my twenties, you know, of people who are poly.

And one of the reasons that took me so long to even like try on the identity label, you know, is that all of the people who are in my circle, you know, who were really actively talking about Polly and communicating about Polly were dudes and there were narcissists and they just wanted to fuck everyone.

Oh, right. Like, so, so that, so all of the, like, the people who are really, like the loud Polly people were the ones who they're, they're not what I think of as Polly, you know? They, they just were like, I would like to have sex with you and everyone and take zero care for anybody's feelings about it. Right.

You know, and they're like lifting the language and they're telling people, oh, you know, feelings are our own responsibility, which means I don't have to take any responsibility for yours and I can go fuck everybody. Mm-hmm. And, and those people absolutely like poisoned the well in my community, you know, like I lived in Vancouver for a very long time and I think that not just there, but like certain in, in any of the communities I've been in, you know, there's a certain immediate response, you know, when people hear about Poly, for a lot of people because they've had an experience or friend has had an experience with somebody who is.

Just a narcissist who wanted to fuck everybody who had like co-opted the language, you know, and behaved badly, you know, and they're like, oh, that's what Pauly is. And, and I, I think I was there too at the beginning. I was like, oh, they, whatever that is. I, I'm not, I'm not that.

[01:18:42] Luna: Yeah. Okay. I hear that.

[01:18:44] Michael: And so does that get in the way of sometimes, you know, of me being like, well, I am very robustly attracted to like a wide variety of people.

Yeah. You know, and if the conditions were right, would I want to have sex with lots of them? Yeah, totally.

[01:18:58] Luna: Absolutely. If the conditions were right, I mean, I feel that way too. And I, I get confused sometimes. Or whenever someone says novelty seeker with a tone of voice, that means they do not think that's a very like human or interpersonal way.

I'm like, well, for me, I value novelty. And I'm bringing myself to the experience. Like I am not like, oh, I'm high and mighty conscious, but also like I am pursuing novelty because I learn about myself from each new partner. I get to experience different sides of myself and learn different things from each completely different human.

And to me, I'm like, it's totally fine if you only wanna have one type of experience with one person at a time, or at least that's what you say, you know, for x number of decades. That's, that's a totally fine experience. If you only wanna pay attention to one. I just want to pay attention to an experience, more types of people.

And it's up to my partners, like, how fully do they wanna show up and share themselves with me? Right. You know? And so it's like, for me, it's like diving into that experience of more and more people is not about just like, more, more, how can I have more? It's just like, what can I learn about myself from someone who's this texture versus that texture?

'cause I experienced the energy of each person. It's so wildly unique and different. And so I think for me, it's always been a little bit struggling to kind of like wrap my brain around the like heavy jealousy and competition narratives that I'm like, how could we be in competition? There's nobody else like me.

There's nobody else like you. What are you talking about? You know? And that's, and that's a thing that I still kind of struggle with. Do you, do you experience jealousy? I can't even remember right now.

[01:20:42] Michael: I don't experience jealousy in a way that is, that I hear many other people talk about. But like, I definitely will sometimes experience contraction, you know, around my partners, like speaking about their other partners.

Like that does occasionally happen for me. But one of the first books I read about Polly was, uh, the Ethical Slut and I found their frame for that just deeply reflective of my own experience. And so just, it's sort of always informed my opinion of that. And they say that jealousy is the mask your insecurity likes to wear.

[01:21:17] Luna: Mm. You know,

[01:21:17] Michael: so, but, so I do experience insecurity sometimes, but I don't experience. Like, how could you, you know, which I think is what people mean when they, when they experience jealousy, when they're like, oh, like you went and did this hot thing with someone else, you know, that, like, how could you take that away from me by doing that thing?

Or like, whereas I, I do sometimes experience like, oh wow, that person does sound really awesome. Um, sure. Yeah,

[01:21:49] Luna: yeah, yeah. Right,

[01:21:50] Michael: right. So like, so is that jealousy? I don't think so. At least not the way most people speak about jealousy. You know, like, I would call that insecurity. Hmm. You know, and one of the things that I really witness in myself is that it does not show up with every partner.

Right. Some partners communicate with me in ways that make me feel so special that I want to make them to go and experience special things with other people. And I'm just like, great. Oh my God. Tell me about how huge this cock is. That's awesome. You know, like the, that's like not fussed at all because I feel like so robustly special because of the way this person like, behaves with me and communicates with me.

And they're doing that positive reinforcement with me consistently. That like, whether they're doing that verbally or they're just doing that by being all melty when they're around me. So I'm like, oh wow. I clearly feel special to this person. And so of course I want them to go have awesome experiences with other people.

And you know, that are wildly different than mine. Yeah. And then yes, like ever, like every once in a while some partner, new partner of my partner will happen to have equality that is unfortunately exactly the thing that I am personally insecure about, but like the opposite. It's like this thing that I'm worried that I'm deficient in.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. They have tons of that thing, eh, just mass, mass quantities of that. Wow. That sounds, sounds wonderful for you. Do you still love me? Oh. You know, the, yeah. Like that happens in small ways, you know? Yeah. Um, uh, sometimes, you know, but I have discovered that I have, like, I have a very specific workaround, you know, for that, that, again, when I first, you know, came up with this, I was like, oh, this is a thing for all people.

And it's like, ha no, you know, no, no, nope. Do not impose this on other partners. This is not reassuring for other people always. But it's very reassuring for me, you know, where when I feel that start to happen, one of the ways to make it go away is to be like, can you show me pictures of this person, please?

Mm.

[01:24:05] Luna: Definitely does not work for everyone, but, yeah. Yeah. But what does it do for you?

[01:24:10] Michael: It really, it reminds me that that other person is still a person. Yeah. You know, and that they're not some kind of like fear fantasy super me with like, all the things that I, that I like about myself, but more and all the things that I'm insecure about.

They don't have those. Yeah. But like, they, it's like, oh, this person is just a person. And they're like, yeah, they're very cute, but they don't look like me 'cause they're not me. You know? And, you know, I can see in a, like a visceral felt way that they are not me, you know? And, you know, that reassures me a little bit.

[01:24:41] Luna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would love for you to share with us to whatever depth feels appropriate. I know we could talk for hours, like I wanna hear how you learned about sex, relationship and connection. I know some pieces, I know a lot of pieces, but I would love to hear Yes. Just like a cohesive story of it. And, uh, starting, maybe starting, when do you first remember hearing about sex?

What do you remember feeling about it and how, how did your unfoldings go? I

[01:25:10] Michael: think I referenced this, you know, when we were talking about shame, you know, briefly is that, you know, I was, uh, raised Catholic by a single mom who I was like, very connected with, you know, and, and so I inherited like a lot of familial and cultural shame, you know, like explicit, familiar and cultural shame around sex in addition to sort of like strange shay messages that are just sort of implicit everywhere.

And so, I don't remember the first time I heard about sex, but I, I think that I like reflexively avoided, like, hearing about it. I'm not sure I knew anything about how sex happened or worked. You know, my, my first like really clear memory in this field is my mom coming into my room at like 14 or 15 and, and I was like, feeling so horribly uncomfortable that I didn't know what was wrong with her and staring at the floor and saying something like, I got to this book if you ever wanted, it's on the bookshelf.

And like, it was some book about sex. And I, I didn't read it. Like, it, it was, I got the message that it was like so horribly shameful, you know, that it should never be spoken of and it should never be looked at. Like, my friends would tease me, you know, you know, by sort of like trying to like show me things, but like, I just, I was not having it.

Mm. You know? So in, in high school, I like reflexively avoided. Information even, right. At some point I must have learned like how sex happened, you know, but I, I both had like a lot of like, desire, you know, for eroticism and closeness, you know, and like a deeply felt sense of shame about that, you know? And then I'd gotten, then I got lucky in college, you know, I developed a huge crush on the like, punk rock girl who had the locker below mine, you know?

Uh, and she was like five or six years older than me and was taking the creative writing program. And I just thought she was so cool. And so at one point we had like opera tickets that we could like, get cheap through our theater history class, you know? And I asked her if she would go with me or if she wanted to go with me, and she was like, yeah, great.

Yeah. Come over, come over to my house. I have to get changed, you know? And so I was like, okay. And I went to her house and she was like, fancy or slutty. And I was like, um, what? This is whatever you want. This is fine. Right? And, and so like, this was my first ever lover and you know, I just got such an incredible education, you know, that like, like more than I had any ability to appreciate at the time.

Wow. But she, she mostly dated women. She was actively polyamorous, you know, she was like kinky as fuck. She was into all sorts of crazy things, you know, and, and so, and she was like genuinely interested in me and engaged in me and was like, I think, thought it was kind of hot to like do flower, you know, the like, you know, quirky, sensitive, like weird boy from the Fraser Valley, you know?

So we had lots of like, good conversation, but also like, I didn't have sex without a condom for like this until like seven years later or something. So like, no, this is just what you do always. Yeah. Right. Like, like I remember a conversation with somebody you. A bunch of my 20, you know, or like thereabouts, you know, lady friends and they were having some sex conversation.

I was like, what? Like, know, making somebody come is really fairly straightforward. Like, what, what, what do you mean? I like, I don't understand this experience you're having. Because my experience with this first lover has had been that like, she just told me what worked for her, and then I did that and it was fine.

Yeah. And so for years after that, like after we split up, I would have the experience of dating somebody. But then after we started having sex, they were like, I love you. You know? I think because they just had never had, again, this is sort of sad about like Sex of the World, but they just never had a good lover before.

Yeah. And so, and I was like, huh. What? I mean, I, I like you that sex is nice. You know, you, but at the time I was like that, my twenties were like a very confusing time where I both had this like very robust education, you know? And, uh, you know, of like extreme sex positivity. Yeah. Right. Like the, like this lover took me to a, a weird cabaret that are friends were doing that was like, I don't know what you had to do to find out about this thing, but it was in this nightclub and it was in a night that it wasn't open and somebody was fucking somebody else with a beer bottle on the stage.

And there was like a hot girl with a goatee at the next table. And this is like 1999 or something. I'd never seen a woman with a goatee, much less a very hot one. You know? So it's like very robust education right at the beginning.

[01:30:08] Luna: I love that so much. And I think that's new information for me. Did you, did you struggle with.

The transition from like, no, I don't really wanna talk about it or hear it. Like, like how did she get you from like, oh, I don't, I, no, I don't engage with that to, like, you had sex with your first lover. Like what, what was that like for you? Oh yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:25] Michael: Well by, by then I'd been in theater school and in theater school.

Okay. Like, I think my impression of theater school and you know, like this held out with other folks who were in theater school, that either you all have sex and everybody ends up hating each other, you know? Or you're like very sexually frustrated. And we were in the second category, you know, so there was a lot of back rubs and a lot of obsessive talking about sex at that point, you know?

And I'm like, so I wasn't like actively, you know, contributing very much to those conversations. But like I was picking up at least, you know, like some information, you know, because I was there in the field with like a bunch of horny people who had just finished high school and were on their own for the first time, you know, but also had a reason to not all have sex with each other because the.

It's a two year, it was a two year program I was in, and the folks in the year before us, they fucking hated each other. They'd all like, had sex in different combinations and they, they were miserable and they hated each other.

[01:31:19] Luna: Oh, that's,

[01:31:19] Michael: and so it was like, and so we had like disincentive to do that for the, the first like, you know, long chunk of time we were there.

Wow.

[01:31:27] Luna: Oh my God. But yeah, the

[01:31:28] Michael: transition, like in my twenties, I was really a mess in dating because I think I flip flopped wildly between total open sex positivity and like deep shame, you know, and the right, like, it's, it's not like I got over my shame with that first lover. It's that like, I, I added like an incredible foundation of, you know, ease and sex positivity, you know, to like a deep sense of shame that I didn't even really understand or know was there, you know?

And then for the next decade, I ended up trying to do both at the same time. So I must have just been like a chaotic, confusing mess to my partners because I, at that time, I couldn't say I'd really like to have sex with you, but like, I don't think we're terribly compatible as people, you know, like I, I, I was not able to say that.

And so I would get into relationships that were mostly about, like, me and some other person, like, wanted to have sex with each other, you know, and then, you know, the, and then I would be like confused and conflicted and like, I, so I was not communicating. Well, you know, because of, of my own shame and like what I, what it would've meant to me at the time to say to somebody, I like you, you know, I don't want to, like, I don't have the impulse to like, know you deeply in a romantic way, but like, I would love to have sex with you if you wanna do that.

[01:32:43] Luna: Mm. What I,

[01:32:44] Michael: I still have trouble saying that to somebody out loud. Yeah.

[01:32:47] Luna: Well, and I would have trouble because how do you identify when you want to know someone deeply romantically? What does that mean to you?

[01:32:54] Michael: Uh, well, you know, in the like, relationship anarchy sense of it not being like super, like separate between like friends, you know, and you know, lovers,

[01:33:02] Luna: or it could be opposite.

[01:33:04] Michael: It's more like, am I really turned on by this person's brain? Or like, do do, do I, do I want to, you know, like spend hours, like hearing you talk about like literally anything, you know, like that, that is a much more rare experience to me, you know, than like, ah, would I like put my face on your face? It's like, ooh.

Yeah. The answer to the second one is like often, yes. The answer to the first one is very rarely yes. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And like if I, if and and I have, and so I have been historically unwilling to just be like, well, I'll just wait until I want to be like, hear somebody talk about literally anything for hours and also wanna put my face on their face.

I'm like, that sounds lonely and I don't wanna wait that long. And I really like, you know, putting my face on people's faces, so I. Finding ways to talk about that in ways that made me feel good.

[01:33:54] Luna: Totally. And even if I don't want to hear about like anything from a certain mouth, words wise, like there are lots of other things that I may otherwise not have been exposed to.

That is interesting. Yes. It's just a different depth of connection. Yeah,

[01:34:05] Michael: exactly. Be like poly, you know, is a, is a way to destabilize the kind of the internalized narrative that I think it was really still carrying in my twenties of like, one person has to tick all these boxes.

[01:34:17] Luna: Absolutely.

[01:34:18] Michael: And it, and it's like maybe even wrong, right?

Like maybe, like maybe even it's something they should be ashamed of, you know, to, to want to especially like be sexual with somebody if they don't also tick all the other boxes. Yeah,

[01:34:30] Luna: yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you were exposed to like. Queerness and non-monogamous structures early on, but you started to claim them for yourself, what, around 30 ish months later?

Yeah. Like, yeah,

[01:34:44] Michael: yeah. 30 ish. You know, like, did,

[01:34:46] Luna: so what, is there anything in the twenties, in the formative experiences that we need to know in terms of just like, and was the shame, the shame and the sex positive? Was it more like a dual experience? Was it like a rubber band snapping back and forth? Was it some combination?

Like, did it, does

[01:34:59] Michael: it, no, I think they both existed together. Okay. Like, I think that the, the, like, the shame was sort of like always there with me, like behaviorally. Yeah. I was like, what are you into? That's great. That's fine. I became very, very, like, very, very safe person for other people who had shame because of my foundation.

I just wasn't adding to it. I was like, cool. Yeah. Great. You wanna like, I don't wanna be peed on, but that's fine if you like that. Because I'd, I'd had this early foundation where I was like, whoa, everything. Like, I've never even had sex before and I've got a partner, you know, who's just like, likes all sorts of like wild, crazy things.

And so my initial sexual experience was like, okay, like what do you like. Oh, okay. Like, I don't think I wanna do that one or that one, but like, but that's what you like and that's fine. And so I, and so I was like very good with other people's shame. Okay. But I was not really good at identifying or working with my own shame at the time, you know?

That makes sense. And that's what I mean about like, just being a hot mess. Yeah. You know, be because I was, was inconsistent. Yeah, absolutely. Then confusing to myself and to other people, you know. And then what happened was, like, I had a very traumatic breakup in my early thirties, you know, and a very traumatic breakup with somebody who was like, deeply life committed to, uh, that involved infidelity, you know?

And, you know, I, I didn't see it coming. I was like, never jealous. It never even occurred to me that this would happen, you know? And I was completely shattered by it in a way that that wasn't just about betrayal of trust. It was like, I, like, I broke along some shame lines that were like in me, you know? And so when I was putting myself back together, it like forced me to look at some of that shame.

And in the process I was like, there is a version of me that can hear that my partner is having sex with somebody else and say. Wow, that is really painful. That's an incredible breach of trust. Everything stops while we figure this out, but doesn't go, what does this mean about me? I am worthless and implode.

Right? So it's like the, like, I wanna, how do I get to the first guy? How do I get to the guy who's like, trust agreements, pain, betrayal, and not the one who's like I am, you know, like, my self-worth is annihilated. And, you know, and so that sent me onto a, like, I had a few women, thankfully in my circle who were poly.

Like, and they weren't like asshole dudes. They're like, they were poly. And they talked about like, the challenges of that. And they were like doing their best to love dudes who were often poly assholes. But like, I, but I, I had a couple of friend acquaintances that's a, a, a word from you, by the way, which I use all the time.

And, you know, my son cat use conversation. It's so useful. Yeah. Yeah's so useful. It's like, oh yeah, great. Yeah. This is, you know, it's, it's not, you know, like distant. It's not like, like these just people who I could call up for tea and be like, Hey, like, I know we don't hang, you know, often, but like, I need your wisdom.

Like, would you be willing to talk to me about the way that you do things with your relationship and with your heart and your body? Because it was like, I needed to know that it was possible to have that painful experience again and not die, you know? And I was like, who knows about that? That it's the people who are doing it on purpose over and over and over again.

Or the people who are purposefully in a relationship strategy where they are inviting their partner to go have sex with other people, you know? Or that, like, it's normal for them. This was the, like, at the time of the idea, I had that for them, their partner to come home and be like, I had sex with somebody new, and now we have to talk about it.

You know? And so it was like, who knows how to navigate that conversation. Somebody was having it over and over and over again. Yeah. You know, and, and so I sought out some poly people and I like had long conversations with them and I read the Ethical Slut and I, you know, like sort of started reading about it.

But again, I've like, like unpacking shame really takes time. Like I, I was still like, I mean, I am still carrying it, like it still lives in me and can be like, you know, like unpredictably triggered. So at the time I was like, it was even more present and was even less aware of it. And so that meant that I didn't identify myself as poll.

You know, like they, right. So I was, I was trying to poll date without claiming the label, you know, because of my own and people's associations with what the label meant. Yeah. You know, and I, like, I still hate being put in a box. I still hate labels, but it's really confusing. It meant that I was very confusing to people at the time because they, they didn't understand what was happening.

'cause I wasn't being clear. And, and so now I can say I'm Polly, I am non-hierarchical poly, I, I have my own problems with those labels. You know, like I can tell you all of my feelings about it, but at least it's something Yeah. You know, to be like, no, when I, what I mean when I say poly is I want multiple.

Close connected relationships that may or may not involve sex that we, that I negotiate explicitly with those other people. And that is the kind of like Polly that I am currently practicing and interested in continuing to practice. Yeah. And this is like the aggression, but like before this podcast started, you were like, what the, tell me about solo Polly, you know, and like, am I, like, what does it mean?

You know, so my, my feelings about all these labels is that everybody wants to talk about the labels. Oh my God. But okay, so, so like, my, my feelings about the labels are that like, monogamy is really clear, like monogamy's a road.

[01:40:30] Luna: Except it's not, it's just that people assume about husbands and wife, they assume that those words mean certain things and they

[01:40:38] Michael: don't, but, but your assumption is much more likely to be right in.

Yeah. No, I like it. I think the, like the whole thing is like, you know, do you have a greater than, you know, uh, likelihood of being accurate, you know, if you're like looking at the road of monogamy and making assumptions. Yeah, probably,

[01:40:54] Luna: maybe. But I will also just say, look at divorce rates and if monogamous people talked about what does being a husband and what does being wife, what does being wife together, like what I'm hundred percent

[01:41:04] Michael: with you?

I'm just saying like in terms of, in terms of like people's, me understanding people's attachment new to the labels. It's like monogamy you is like, you're in the open, it's a road. It's got a, like a, the, the, you know, you can see the road extended to the distance. It goes up on a certain, like, specific set of trajectories, you know, like there's, there's visibility and there's like a part of the problem.

Well

[01:41:27] Luna: that's, well, that's your assumption about it.

[01:41:30] Michael: Well, they like the, the part of the problem is the felt sense that like, uh, of like, this is the, what's clear. Yeah. And we don't have to talk about it. Like, I, I think that's a big problem with monogamy is people's impression that it's a straight line and there's a road.

Yeah. But certainly that still exists culturally. And so as soon as you step off the road, you are in the wilderness. You are, you're making it up as you go. You know, and people always wanna like, wanna say like, okay, well, but can you describe the wilderness? And it's like, well, a. Every force is a little different, right?

Like roads, roads are very similar whether you are in Spain or here. I totally

[01:42:12] Luna: disagree. It's like, I'm like, Nope. I'm like, Nope. It's all 100% confusing unless you use 1 million and a half words to talk about all of it every day unless

[01:42:20] Michael: you use a million and a half words. Exactly. And but so like, and that's, I, I agree with you that that's like literally how all relationships are, you know?

But I think that, you know, once you step off the road of monogamy, like you're in the wilderness, you know, and, and people love being an expert, so they love saying, well, this is, this kind of wilderness is called this, and this kind of wilderness is called that, and this kind of wilderness doesn't belong over there.

And that kind of doesn't belong over here. But I think that like, in actual practice, like, like it's useful, you know, to have some top level labels because it helps people not need to ask a million questions at the outset, or it helps like direct their questions, you know, in a certain way. So I, I have come to say like, I'm poly, I've been poly for a long time.

Right now. I'm like, I'm solo poly. I'm on hierarchical poly and kitchen table poly. But I think that if you're in the wilderness with people who are doing any sort of non-traditional relationship, but also if you're in a traditional relationship Yeah. Your, your response to any of that to be cool, man, what does that mean to you?

Do you Yeah. Specifically everything. Yeah. What, what is behaviorally? What does that look like? Because otherwise you kind, you still don't really know anything. Yeah. And it's like monogamy.

[01:43:31] Luna: Nope, I don't think it's, it's way more

[01:43:32] Michael: true in poly, like it's way more true. I think they're both so true.

[01:43:35] Luna: I think all of it's very true

[01:43:36] Michael: in non-traditional relationships because it's like, because you can have a situation where like the label, like, you know, poly means something radically different, you know, to one person than to another.

And I think that that's just like, because people are in the wild West, they're inventing it on their own, you know? Yeah. And, and they get very attached to like, no, it definitely means this. You can, there's more potential for miscommunication in non-traditional relationships if you don't ask a bunch of follow-up questions about like, okay, what are your actual practices and what does that mean to you?

[01:44:06] Luna: I think that's a fair point. I mean, I don't know. I don't know how to compare them. I don't think there are scientific studies that could help actually measure that. No, no, no. But I can tell you my opinion, but I can tell you that there are lots of married people that pretend to be on the same page. Oh yeah.

And aren't because they never had these questions. 'cause they're operating on assumptions, you know? And even if they come from the same background, those assumptions, oftentimes, I mean, I've been in enough circumstances where I see one or both parties are like pretty unhappy with their mutual assumptions.

That could be different if they just talked about them. I

[01:44:40] Michael: also think that there are a lot of like married, monogamous people who are actually doing something that I think of as like, you know, sort of Polly or Polly adjacent. Yeah. You know, and like doing that quite happily, but they're like, but they are like, no, no, we're monogamous.

That's what I'm saying. He just, you know, he just has, he just has a lover in Connecticut and that's fine. And it's like, yeah. Oh, okay, cool. That's huh.

[01:45:03] Luna: No, no. Our road just happens to be unpaved and undefined and changes a lot. And it is in a forest. It's also in an ocean and a lake, and I mean, it's like, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely, we're monogamous. Yeah. It's like, I mean, it's like all the straight people are like totally straight. Definitely don't mind playing with the same gender, do get aroused by it. You know, body parts don't matter. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm like, oh yeah, well, whatever. Labels are helpful

[01:45:26] Michael: because like, I, I was drawn to the, the, like the label of queerness.

I've like tried that on for myself for a number of years, you know, uh, recently, you know, was, I think it was my partner, the one who's been in my life for the last three years, who shared a Dan Savage article with me. Uh, that was, you know, basically like ranting about poly people. Like, are you queer? Really?

Like, do you play, like, are you attracted to people of the same gender? No. Then you're not, you're not queer. Like, you're just straight. But interesting, like, and if you remove yourself from this category of straightness, you're just like lowering the bar for straightness everywhere. Like why does straight have to be boring?

Like, just, you're just keep saying you're straight because we want interesting straight people in the world. And I was like, okay, that, that's really like, funny and smart. And also, it's true, I don't feel romantic or sexual attraction to men. Like, I'm fine to have sexual experiences whether men around, but I'm not like, oh, I really want to put my mouth on that person's bits.

Okay. Right. Like, yeah. I mean, I've tried that. Okay. You know, and it was like a cool experience, you know, but I, I don't know, it didn't turn me on.

[01:46:37] Luna: Okay. So your like body didn't react to it?

[01:46:40] Michael: No. No, but, but I was kind of like, will I have a shame explosion? Hey, no, I didn't. That's awesome.

[01:46:45] Luna: Okay. But there was no arousal?

Nope. Okay. Well that's okay too. I'm, yeah. Yeah.

[01:46:51] Michael: Like, I mean, we were both playing you with a female partner of mine at the time, you know, and so there was definitely arousal, but not about that.

[01:46:59] Luna: Mm, okay. Okay. I love that.

[01:47:02] Michael: Yeah. In terms of like my own exploration, honestly, like the, like the next step, you know, in exploring would be to like be in the, you know, like in that sort of threesome experience, but with another man who is like, you know, much more like actively like, like attracted to me.

[01:47:20] Luna: That's what I was gonna ask about. Yeah. I was like, did you feel desired?

[01:47:24] Michael: That would be a fun edge. Like, because I, yeah, because it is possible that if somebody was very, very, very excited about that happening, that that might be arousing.

[01:47:34] Luna: Okay. Because there is a voice in my head that's like, what if you just didn't meet the right guy?

Not that I think everyone needs to be queer. It's totally fine, but, you know,

[01:47:42] Michael: no, it's like, I, dude, if, if I, if my body could get excited about that, that would just be more opportunities for pleasure. And I, I really like more than okay with that. I want that. Yeah,

[01:47:53] Luna: yeah, yeah. You know, like, and

[01:47:53] Michael: it, and it means like, you know, yeah.

It means like, uh, paying attention to and undoing some, like internalized homophobia means coming, being gentle with myself, so. Don't find myself having a shame explosion in the middle of what should be like an erotic, connective experience. And I don't wanna like point a shame explosion at somebody by accident.

[01:48:16] Luna: I mean, most people don't want to do that, especially by accident or on purpose.

[01:48:20] Michael: Right?

[01:48:22] Luna: So I. Remember evolutions of your kinky self, but I didn't know that you were exposed to kink so young. So where, how did it bubble through for you? Like, and tell us about your, like, and maybe it layers in with Polly stuff and I don't know, did you talk about relationship anarchy enough?

Because that's, that's like my formative idea of you from when we were meeting, like you were really interested in that phrase, but like,

[01:48:46] Michael: very interested in Relationshipy because relationshipy is the like, is the, is the, this literally means nothing. So you're gonna have to ask me, you know, of the labels.

And so it's like, yeah, of course. I like the label that's like, this is the label that means you have to ask me a million questions. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:49:02] Luna: I mean, I, I like it too because I identify with certain aspects, depending on which definition of relationship anarchy you like go with. But I, I love the idea that I can have intimate relationships with or without sex and I decide where those are.

You know, like my best friend Gigi, sometimes I call her my wife and it's like we're not married. And also sometimes we go a while without actually like talking and then we drop in very deeply. And like we are, we have deep, deep intimacy and sometimes it is sexual, but like, sex is not how we connect. Like talking is how we connect.

Adventures is how we connect. Um, work is how we connect. Yeah. You know, so that's what appeals about it to me. But like, when did it start appealing to you and how and when does kink layer into your relational unfoldings?

[01:49:47] Michael: I don't remember really, like when relationship anarchy as an idea sort of entered my circle.

Probably it was around the time where we met because I was engaging a lot in the Blues fusion scene in Ben, in Vancouver at the time, and one of the drafters of the original, uh, what is it? The relationships smorgasbord, you know, that is, it's sort of like a, a, a tool, you know, that is available for relationship anarchy folks.

Have you seen this? No,

[01:50:16] Luna: I'm just thinking I gotta go look at it.

[01:50:18] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's easy to find, you know, online. I'm trying to remember like exactly what it's called. One of the drafters of that happened to be somebody who was like, in the same blues fusion scene that I was in, you know? And so, uh, probably was like, you know, talking to her.

Cool. Here, it's called the Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord.

[01:50:36] Luna: Okay.

[01:50:37] Michael: Uh, created by Lyrica Lawrence and Heather Orr, yada, yada yada. Yeah. And then there's a, a newer one, you know, called Relational Ecology mapping, but it was the original relationship anarchy smorgasbord that probably like, was my exposure at the time.

And it's basically just like a list of like, here are all the things that you could do with another person you were intimate with. Like, talk with your person and decide which ones you wanna do. Like do you wanna, do you wanna share finance or national finances? Do you wanna do things in public or not? Do things in public?

Do you wanna, you know, touch each other's bits or not touch each other's bits? Do you wanna, you know, the like, look after your kids? You not look after your kids. Uh, I was like, oh, that's, there's, that's really of like an alive, interesting idea was on the side of my fridge for a long time. Mm. You know, and there were like some weirdos, you know, in that community that you liked.

I think that my. Kink explorations in like an explicit way where I was like thinking of them as kink, you know, really paralleled yours.

[01:51:34] Luna: Oh yeah. We had a lot of conversations when I was just discovering it. Yeah. And we Yeah, yeah. When you were just

[01:51:40] Michael: discovering it. Exactly. And I, I don't remember if I had like a very, if I had a real active interest in it, like previous to that, or if it was your early explorations, you know, that, you know, got me really into it.

Or if it's like we were talking about together and then you were like suddenly like deep into exploring it in practice and it was like, whoa, what is that? Yeah. You know, it actually took me like, so it was definitely curious about kink things for a year or two, uh, after that. But it wasn't until I found shibari, you know, that I found like a, a genuine in for myself.

Yeah. You know, I, I think that understanding power play took having an activity, you know, that was not explicitly sexual, but you know, contained the possibility for sensuality and eroticism that included like in its power play in its structure. Like I just needed a way to like, to dabble and be like, oh, that, oh, I really like that.

Like whatever that was. I want more of that, that thing where when I do it, my partner gets all like sort of soft and melty and stupid like that. Was awesome. How do I make that happen more?

[01:52:54] Luna: Oh yeah. Oh, I love that. Tell us all the things you love about Jabari and or power play as it bleeds it. Like, just tell us about your kindy parts.

[01:53:04] Michael: Jabari was my in, you know, but honestly, like with partners now, I, I don't, you know, like I bust out my ropes sometimes, you know, but it's, it's much more like shibari helped me understand power, uh, in myself, and now I wanna play with that with my partners in different ways, you know, so I, I don't have like a deep attachment to like tying a partner up unless that's the thing that turns 'em on the most, in which case that's like, I'm just doing, I'm, I don't know, I'm just doing a normal sex thing, which is like, what's gonna be hottest for my partner?

You know, like, I'm gonna pick from that menu, like the things that are hot for me today and, you know, then do only those things. Like, I, I love that. I love that game. Then I think everybody gets to relax, right? The, that's, that's why back to that new conversation of like, so what's the pre-conversation if I can find out like, what are the things that are hot for my partner, you know, either experientially or, or by talking and then I can just pick from that menu only the things that I like.

Then yeah, am I like, that sort of fits into power play if I'm like leading or guiding or facilitating, but then like I get to do only things I like, I. I get to like, just relax 'cause I know that things are happening are the things that my partner likes and neither of us has to be like, are they just doing it for me?

Um, like do I, the, it just like takes that off the table in a way that is, I find very like calming and reassuring.

[01:54:26] Luna: Oh, absolutely. Well, you please list for us some of the hot, delicious things you've experienced and enjoyed.

[01:54:33] Michael: I like, I really enjoy playing up a partner, you know, but I, it is creating that like soft melting experience, you know, for my partner, you know, that is like the hottest thing, you know?

And so how we get there is individual for each person, like the, or the play partner who I'm having the like, you know, will we stay connected? And how ambiguous conversation the first time we met. Like she had just moved here from Iran for school, you know, and I was like, oh my god. Tell me everything. Like you were somewhere where having sex is like illegal, you know?

And like, not only were you having kinky sex, but like any of the sex partners you met could have been a secret service person in disguise waiting to arrest you forever. Like, like talk about high stakes. Like that's a, and you still were like a kinky person. Like, I must know everything. So it was, it was fascinated.

That was, at that point, I wasn't doing a spreadsheet, but I had like a full page list and we sort of like met in the context of just, uh, of playing together and, and doing negotiated play. And so we met at a coffee shop, we went through my list, you know, and then it was like, go away, think about it. You know, like, I'm gonna run this errand and like 15 minutes from now if you're like, yes, I wanna play together.

Like, basically when I'm not here. And so there isn't a context of like, you wanting to please me because I'm right here. If you're like, I wanna play together, then send me your address. You know? And uh, and when she did, I was like, great, tell me three, three feeling words, you know, for like, you know, how you want to feel, you know?

And I don't remember like, she was something, something and scared and it was like. Okay. Hot. I've never done that with a new partner before, you know? And so, you know, I like, and so I was like much more forceful with her than I would've been otherwise. Like, she, like, yeah, she wanted me a pain. She wanted to be scared.

Yeah. And so I went in and like, you know, took her clothes off, you know, and like, stood back, you know, back and like, you know, examined her, you know, and like, you know, um, stood behind her in the mirror and it was, it was extremely hot, you know? And this is a partner who, like, when we first played together, she was like, I don't know if I'm gonna orgasm metal.

Like, just so you know, it might not happen, you know? And the first time we played together, it was really fun to like, make her come repeatedly while she had my cock in her mouth, because like, she was sort of overwhelmed by like how unexpected and awesome that was. Uhhuh. And, and like that connection has like built to the point where like, now when we have sex, like she comes like the second, I put my cock inside her in a way that like I've never experienced with another person.

Right? And then I can torture her by giving her repeated orgasms by fucking her. Ah,

[01:57:22] Luna: and I like that torture and like, and,

[01:57:24] Michael: and she actually sort of would be, you know, again, this is somebody who likes torture or pain or discomfort in some ways, you know? And so we've gone from like me needing to like physically torture her to like, I basically fuck her until she dissociates, you know, from having too many orgasms.

[01:57:40] Luna: Whoa. Oh wow. I imagine that must feel powerful,

[01:57:44] Michael: so. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Like of course that feels special to me. So I'm like, cool man, you don't wanna respond to my text for a couple of months, but you do that when I touch you we're fine. I feel very special in this connection.

[01:57:57] Luna: Yeah. Wow.

[01:58:00] Michael: Part of the way we got there was, you know, by like.

You know, the, I had a partner who found her really triggering and I, you know, and so, and, but then, and then we got back together and then she was with a partner and like, that kind of didn't work for me and, you know, and then we came back together and, and then she didn't have a fresh test. And so, you know, the, you know, like in a way that would've like, worked with my other partner.

So we, like, a couple of different times we had play sessions that were really just about her begging me to fuck her. And I was like, I can, I can put my fingers places, but like, you can't put your, you know, mouth on my bits and I can't put my bits on your bits. And, you know, like, and that was so hot. Like, one of those times when we were, I was like, we were playing together in a like constrained way because of my agreements with my other partners.

Yeah. I was like, well. You know, like, here, I like, I'm naked, but I'm not going to like, you know, put my bits on your bits, you know, or like, you know, my mouth on your bits, et cetera. But I was like, you can try, you know, like the, because I'm way stronger than she is. So I was like, you can try and make me fuck you.

You know? And when we got to that point, she like tried and like, just thinking about that, like, came immediately, like, you know, and, and in a way that was like embarrassing for her. She's, I can't believe I came just like, like thinking about having her cock inside me, you know? And, and I think that really set the stage for like, where we are now.

Mm.

[01:59:15] Luna: Okay. Oh my God. Right. So it

[01:59:17] Michael: was like, it was like, so some extreme edging experiences Yeah. That weren't because I was torturing her with edging. It was because like, well, you didn't get your test, so who gets, uh, I guess like, you, some of the things that you want, we just get to tease you with. Yeah, it's right there, but you don't get it.

But I would really, I, I love that actually, like, one of, one of my favorite experiences if I'm like playing with somebody new, you know, uh, or somebody I'm just getting to know and they, and they say, I'm not sure if I wanna have sex, which, you know, for like normal people typically means like, I don't know if I want your cock inside me.

Mm-hmm. It's like, so it's like, oh, cool. I know, I know what those words mean, you know? So one of my favorite things to do in that situation is be great. Listen, we're not gonna do that. Take it

[02:00:01] Luna: off the table. Yeah.

[02:00:02] Michael: But the right, because if you're not sure, like, then let's say no.

[02:00:06] Luna: Yeah.

[02:00:06] Michael: But would you be willing to collaborate with me on an experience where you beg me to fuck you?

And I say no. Yeah, because you wanting me to fuck you. That's actually the thing that's hot for me. Like, don't get me wrong, I like really love having my cock inside. People think it's very hot, you know, but I've, I've discovered that having the experience of somebody begging me to fuck them and being like, no.

Nope. No, you don't get that. No, I'm not doing that. You are like, oh yeah, I can see why you would want that, but you're gonna have to wait until next time. Like that, like so hot, so satisfying. Like every bit as satisfying as like actually having sex and sometimes more honestly.

[02:00:42] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially with the buildup, that's the thing.

It's like, I love to fuck, I love having cock inside me. I love fingers inside of me. I wanna put my mouth on a pussy. I wanna put my fingers in a pussy. Like all, all of it. I wanna be everywhere. And I know now because I've had the benefit of having other partners that have slowed me down. And now I also know how to be the partner, given the circumstances to slow down and draw things out.

How much more delicious everything gets when there is an ingredient of can't or patience or, you know, can't yet or earn it or whatever. Like make, you know, um, yeah. And it's

[02:01:15] Michael: a great way to destabilize any felt sense of obligation, which again, you know, like as a male bodied person in a patriarchal world, helping my partners destabilize, you know, the, in any internalized sense of obligation to offer sex, you know, is important.

Right. And I think that like that, being aware of that and destabilizing it on purpose makes the way for like fully juicy, consensual hotness.

[02:01:43] Luna: Totally. And as a feminine, who often is having sex with masculine's who have been kind of trained to believe that like they're most erotically perform. And for a lot of people it looks like I will touch you and then I will squeeze your nipples, and then I will kiss them and I will kiss your neck, and then I will touch your pussy, and then I'll lick your pussy.

And then I will hope that you go down on me. And then we will fuck. And then it's, you know, like, like anything that gets rid of those like steps and that performance aspect of it. 'cause I can feel it. I can feel it when people disappear. And so that's when I. Shift tempo or pullback or whatever, you know, per our agreement.

Depending if, if someone is like, no, I really just wanna like, fuck today, then we might do that depending on the agreement. But like, um, yes, I really love anything that requires a co-created experience, requires the other person's personal creative bits to come out. Not not just their original creative bits, like their genitals, but, you know, the, the like creativity within their heart, mind, soul, spirit, et cetera.

Um, that's super hot

[02:02:44] Michael: right now. My consolation, you know, is this play partner, you know, who like may be, you know, will continue in a new way. You know, I have, uh, a lover who, uh, just recently moved to my community and so I get to see more ease, which is, and I have, you know, a, like a partner who lives long distance, who I'm just like deeply love connected to and been seeing for.

This is the most stable, nourishing, poly relationship that I've had ever. Like, she's been with her nesting partner for 17 years. You know, she's, you know, like very, very, very secure, you know, um, in a way that's really positive, you know? So, uh, with my lover here, the, we do like daddy little girl play in a way that is just like absolutely reliably, turns me on.

Mm-hmm. Like, you know, just, it's totally non-rational, you know, like, it, like it does, it just like bypasses my brain, you know, if, if I'm, you know, fucking her and she just is saying, daddy, daddy, daddy over over again. I'm just like, yep, this did. Wow. Okay. Uhhuh totally does it for me.

[02:03:51] Luna: I fucking love. Yeah, it's great.

[02:03:52] Michael: It's great. It's great, you know. And then, you know, my, my, uh, longer term partner, she doesn't identify as kinky. She's like, I'm not kinky. I just, I just can be turned on by literally anything that turned on my partner. That's all. So we've done like so much kinky stuff, and I'm like, no, you're, I think you're kinky.

You're very kinky. And she's like, oh. I guess

[02:04:16] Luna: Wait, like what? Like what have you done? I don't

[02:04:18] Michael: know, like we had the, we've done all sorts of things, you know? Um, like she's very in sensation, you know, she's very into like, put me where you want me and show me what you want me to do. Like, things that I would think of as power play.

Uh, but like, she loves being tied up. She loves you being like spanked until she cries and then fucked about it, you know, like the, like, right. You know? And so, uh, I dunno, it was like, it was visiting her. She lives in a, a, like a rural community, like that's fairly remote. And so I was visiting her. We set up the massage table upstairs and like lit candles and things.

And then I went outside and found some like, uh, like long, uh, like new shoots on some kind of like very switchy, you know, plant and like, you know, sat on the front porch and like, you know, used a knife and like, shaved off all of the like, nibbles and, you know, like leaves. And then brought them inside. And then like, so we started with like massage and sensuality and then, you know, I like, just like beat the hell out of her with these like switchy things, like slowly ramping up.

I like, her feet are extraordinarily sensitive, so I lash. Heat. And she was like, that's me. So intense. I like, yeah, I gave, you know? Yeah. Like I, I, I lashed her with these things, you know, like, not all, not immediately, but like, until they had just disintegrated. Like they were, you know, they were pre bits and so they did not survive the lashings.

They, I lashed them apart, you know, and then, and dumped hot wax on her, you know, and then there were, you know, like, and then there was also like various kinds of sex that happened. Yeah. That was, that's a totally normal thing.

[02:06:04] Luna: Very vanilla.

[02:06:06] Michael: Yeah. Very. And it's just like, she doesn't think of that as kinky.

She's, because she's like, well, I just like everything and whatever my partner likes is fine because romance.

[02:06:16] Luna: Interesting. Okay. Okay. So it's like more of a responsive desire, an openness to sensation and activity. But for her, the frame is anything kinky to her? Like, is that kinky if it's on other people or it's just not like, no,

[02:06:30] Michael: I think it's inte.

Inte. It is, like, for her, it's an intellectual thing. Oh, interesting. She's like, she's coming to understand what people mean when they say kinky, but I don't, I get it. Don't think she, like, she, she like natively thinks of anything as kinky.

[02:06:43] Luna: I'm still trying to figure out taboo, like in that same vein, I get it.

But she

[02:06:46] Michael: actually is the same way about romance. Like, I, I continue to reflect back to her that she, I experienced her as very romantic and she's like. Am

[02:06:53] Luna: I? That's what's happening to me too. Yeah. That's why

[02:06:55] Michael: I got really curious, like you went outta your way to do this sweet, thoughtful thing that was like loving and like yes, romantic.

She's like, huh. I guess I am like,

[02:07:09] Luna: I think, I think to me, like being romantic has this connotation of like, I'm gonna get something out of this. And I think that is not correct. Like I think the more that I research romance, it's like no, it's just because of love or romance. Like it's for the romantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:07:28] Michael: So yeah, so probably it's just like, so you, you could have been like being consistently romantic for a very long time and just be like, huh? That, oh yeah, okay. I get that's sure.

[02:07:37] Luna: I'm like, you mean being nice to someone I care about and thoughtful.

[02:07:41] Michael: Yeah, exactly. I'm doing the romance. Great, thank you. I'll take the points just to like take the easy win.

[02:07:46] Luna: No, but I have so much anxiety that, you know, especially encountering, you know, partners that are more romantic than I've ever experienced. And I'm like, I even, I can tell these words that come out of the mouth pointed at me. That sound like poetry that you've been writing? No, just how your brain works about me.

Okay. You know, like even I can identify and so on. Then I'm like, fuck, I gotta be romantic enough. What does it mean? You know? And

[02:08:09] Michael: so, because I really, oh no, it's like one more thing to, that you need to accomplish. That's, yeah. Well, I mean, like, that's terribly terrible.

[02:08:16] Luna: I, I really thought, I was like, okay, romance is gonna be a theme of February of last year.

And then I was like, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still thinking about it. And then like, by the end of this past year, I was like, I'm done thinking about rope. Like I don't, I'll let it rest, but it just comes up. It just comes up so often. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, but what do you really mean?

[02:08:31] Michael: Your deep fascination for like eight years before that was sex.

You know, like it's, you know, the, it hasn't stopped. I just realized that they're related. You're brought in the circle. You're like, what? Okay, cool. Like what, what are these things that, that, that hoo moms talk about?

[02:08:49] Luna: Um, speaking of things humans talk about, uh, what, what does it feel like to be daddy? Like what is it about Daddy that gives you that zing?

[02:08:57] Michael: And this wouldn't mean like, it's not rational. It's not something that like, you know, I think about if you'd asked me if I would like it before I had like the first partner who wanted to call me daddy, I would've been like, I dunno, but like, wow, super reliable. I think it's that, it like feels genuinely transgressive.

So part of it is that it feels genuinely transgressive. You know, that it's like that there's some level of like, oh, we shouldn't be doing this, but we both want to. And so it's not just allowed, but it's hot and that like, and so I think that like it's a way to leverage some of the power that shame has in my life.

For good.

[02:09:34] Luna: Mm-hmm.

[02:09:35] Michael: You know, where it's like, I like, I think that if I didn't have any shame about transgression, you know, or especially like any baseline shame, then it wouldn't be particularly hot. It would just be interesting, right. The, you know, but it the, for it to have this power, like that power's gotta come from somewhere like, and I think that it is like alchemized from the shame experience.

[02:09:56] Luna: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[02:09:59] Michael: yeah. That's my thinking about it anyway, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that a lot of kink is like that, right? Like a lot of kink, you know, is, you know, people being like, there's something in my inner experience, you know, that is problematic, you know, or hurtful or traumatic or, but charged.

Mm. You know, and, and I either want to like retrain my system or I'm just following charge and I'm like, I don't know why. Mm-hmm. I don't know why the thing Wow. Really does it for me. I'm just following like where the charge lives.

[02:10:32] Luna: I love that. And, and I'm learning that one of my favorite things is to ask people to put impossible, emotional and physical experiences into words.

So thank you for, uh, continuing to attempt to do that with me. Yeah. Love that. It, I can't help but compare myself to your partner of three years and be like. I do identify with a lot of that. However, in my early experience, I had a partner that was, that was like, so this is kinky, and so if you like this, then you're kinky with me now.

And I was like, okay, so I'm kinky. You know, like I just had, like, I just like applied the label to myself. Yes. Because, because I think also in the world, so many labels, I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to wear this label. Okay, okay, I'll put it on here. So they know that I'm like, this, okay, am I doing it? You know, so, yes.

You know, and here I am still trying to, uh, like crack the code of taboo and romance, even though I kind of get it, like, I kind of get it. I kind of don't get it, you know? Um, sometimes I think romance is taboo, but it, not, not how people are using those words broadly, but I'm like,

[02:11:28] Michael: well, I, I think that you and I both have a pretty high tolerance, you know, for ambiguity, you know, the, you know, that, that like arriving at a definitive answer, you know, seems more like a, uh, like a marketing strategy, you know?

Oh, yeah. Like a.

[02:11:44] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I am so interested in hearing people's specific answers. Yes. And it's only so that I can be like, well, everything is exactly, everything is everything. Yeah.

[02:11:55] Michael: So everything, like, literally everything can be kinky if you think about it. Oh, okay. Huh.

[02:12:02] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, I like to get a definitive answer for the moment.

I mean, that's why it's noodling, that's why it's noodles

[02:12:08] Michael: also, you know, I think that if, like, playing into an existing power dynamic is a lot easier than creating one from scratch, you know? And so, like this lover, like I am older than she is. Mm. The, and, and she has, uh, like shame around, you know, like needing or wanting care.

Oh, yeah. You know, and so for her, like sexualizing care, you know, and leaning into an existing power dynamic where I am older than she is, you know, like both of those things are really working for both of us.

[02:12:38] Luna: Mm. I love that. I mean, and yeah, getting to receive nurturing care. Especially connected to a erotic turn on is, for me, one of the hottest things like, you know, and, and, and being nurtured in a number of ways, like through touch, through listening through deep attention.

For me, food is like a big, yeah. Not like food in the bedroom. I haven't, I haven't explored feeding yet, but, yeah.

[02:13:02] Michael: Well, if somebody is like, struggling to receive, you know, like, then yeah, of course, like therapy and journaling and figure it out. But sometimes you can just be like, cool, can we like, use the charge of that struggle and make it hot, you know?

Yeah. Whether that's like, okay, now you're gonna be forced to receive the thing that like you deeply crave and want, you know, or like you're, we're gonna make you beg for the thing that you would otherwise like, have so much trouble asking for, or like, write this, the, yeah. There are like the ways to play with that, that are really hot, I think, you know, and I don't know, I tie, like, I tied up somebody last year, I think we were having our like, pre-conversation for tying up, you know, and I was like, oh, like, just so you know, like, I might like something that might come out of my mouth.

How do you feel about that? Like, it might, you know, tell you that you're a good girl, you know, just because like, that's a thing that I sometimes say, she was like, like a dog. Like, she was just like, just like, not only was it like neutral for her, but like, she was also like sort of like confused, where do I put context?

[02:14:02] Luna: Yeah.

[02:14:04] Michael: Why would you do that? Like, and I was like, oh, wow. I haven't had that reaction in quite a while. Okay. Noted. No, that's, that's going into the no category for this person. I, I want something that's hot for me to be experienced as like, why are you doing over there?

[02:14:23] Luna: And also, what a good example of, thank goodness you brought it up instead of making the assumption.

'cause I have had a lot of people throw out a lot of words at me, you know, in the heat of the moment that, that are totally their own assumptions about what is hot or not, you know, without checking in. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Good on

[02:14:37] Michael: you. Thank, thankfully with you they're, you know, like you, you have very like, robust profile of things you think are hot.

So

[02:14:43] Luna: Yes. And context is everything for me. Right. So it's like when I, I've, I've even had messages or sext panthers from listeners who are like, Hey, and they dive into like the most degrading, nasty stuff. For the first hello. And I'm like, okay. But if you've been listening, then like, you know, then you know that like context agreements, you know, talking about how do I wanna play?

Even if it's just words, like mm-hmm. Just because I think something is hot with one person who I've established a relationship with, doesn't mean that I wanna be like a come a come dumpster to someone who I'm shaking hands with. Like, you know,

[02:15:21] Michael: God, oh my God. When you put it like that, it's horrifying.

Yeah. So I was, I was thinking of the context of like having sex with somebody who you actually liked and already were having sex with, but Yes. And that

[02:15:30] Luna: we've had a conversation about, you know, about stuff with Yeah. You know, and, and, and I, I am in context where people may be having sex with me with, with only a certain amount of knowledge and I do a very good job of being like, here's what's on the table today.

'cause we've, you know, explicitly negotiated it. And that is, that's, that's what I really love. Um, okay. Obviously I could talk to you for many, many hours, but is there anything else from your, like sex life, sexy yums, like things that we just haven't hit on that we feel like we need to share to just like, have a complete picture of your, this current snapshot of your sexual self?

[02:16:04] Michael: You know, sometimes I will refer to myself as solo poly only because I, I'm not actively pursuing being nested right now. But if I like, for some people it sounds like it's, it's like, for them it's a felt sense of identity. It's like a deep life commitment where they're like, I am solo polymedia. I never want that, and I know that now and I'm gonna lead with that.

Like sort of a, a way of, it sounds like some people use it as a way of filtering where they're like, look, if you want a nester, I'm not that. Mm-hmm. So move on. You know? Or like, you know, I'm gonna put out there, you know, and so that's certainly not the way I use it. Okay. I'm, it's Soul Poly is more just a description of the way I've been doing poly for the last 15 years, which is like, I haven't been nested with a partner for the last 15 years.

[02:16:47] Luna: Yeah. Yeah. That's how, that's how I use it too.

[02:16:49] Michael: Not attached to what happens at the 15.

[02:16:51] Luna: Yeah. I di and I didn't realize that, that it could be a projection on accident for me of like, I'm alone in my apartment and I've got this. Okay. You know, although the reality of my life is I am grown up being you are like, I really am.

Like, I really am. You're not

[02:17:06] Michael: attached to staying that way forever. Exactly. You know, you're, you're,

[02:17:09] Luna: and, and I could, I could see room for, uh, falling into it. I could see room for like landing into, or co-creating some sort of nest if it made sense. You know? And also I know that I'm a really specific flavor and, um, amen.

A lot of nests are not my shape, so I'm like, could someone please build a funny nest with me? It's gotta be big.

[02:17:32] Michael: At the moment, like I live with a close friend, you know, somebody who I like, really, really enjoy, you know, um, you know, and, and so I get some of the benefits of nesting, you know, without some of the like, monogamous baggage that people carry around nesting, which seems to be like, this is the person that it's okay if I don't communicate with and vaguely resent while also like meeting and requiring, you know, it's, I dunno, that's, that's me projecting onto stories that monogamous people tell when they complain.

You know? But like, I don't want that,

[02:18:04] Luna: you don't want mutual resentment loops, like on the foundation of dishonesty or just nondisciplinary?

[02:18:11] Michael: Yeah, no mutual resentment loops. You know, they, that also involve like sort of hiding or obscuring, you know, intent, you know, parts of one's inner experience because that's the implicit rule of your relationship.

No, yeah,

[02:18:23] Luna: yeah. No thanks.

[02:18:24] Michael: Right. And, and like there's monogamous people out there doing it great. Like, hey, like no disrespect to the monogamous folks who are like, they're having the open conversations and being awesome.

[02:18:33] Luna: Absolutely. No, I mean, I think any type of consciously co-created relationship I. That is meeting the needs of the parties involved is great.

You know, I think if it's meeting the needs of the parties involved, great. If not, like I hope for something better for all parties involved. 'cause I want people to feel fulfilled and I mean, my real goal in life is just to have people have good sex. So, you know, we don't have a relationship.

[02:18:56] Michael: I have a close friend in my community who's somebody who I, I dated very briefly seven years ago who I think is so hot.

Like this person is just smoking hot, you know? And, um, she has a very sensitive nervous system and carries a lot of trauma, you know, and is just like, and is crystal clear that Polly is not for her, you know? And it's been really, it's been really wonderful to like, you know, build and nurture and maintain that friendship and to be like, oh, I think that we're actually like still attracted to each other, you know?

Um, except that this person is like very clear that the way that I do relationship, you know, is something they absolutely don't want. Yeah. Yeah. And so Cool. I can hang with that. Yeah. And we can, we can, we can just like love each other and be friends.

[02:19:44] Luna: Ugh. Let's just love each other and be friends and see how it goes.

I love that. I mean, we do, we do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[02:19:52] Michael: Exactly.

[02:19:53] Luna: Okay, so tell us your hopes for the future. This can be sexual, it doesn't have to be sexual, but like relationally, connection wise, sex wise. Like what are you hoping to experience continue and or explore?

[02:20:08] Michael: Well, I think I would like to get progressively better at navigating my own shame and communicating, you know, openly and clearly.

Um, you know, I would like to, to build like sustained, you know, hot, loving connections in my life. You know, I have one like really like robust, sustained, hot, loving connection in my life. I'm like, oh, okay. I wanna build on this current feeling of success and have more of, yes, thank you more please. Thank you more, please.

And then just like sexually, you know, there are, yeah, like there, you know, maybe some things, you know, that I'm like curious to explore, you know? But there's nothing that's on my list that I'm like, oh, oh, this thing that I have not yet experienced. Yeah, right. There's just like, oh, like what? What haven't I done?

What don't I know? You know? And some of that is like. Sex with new people. Some of that is like sex in new ways, you know? Uh, like I said, uh, it would be, it would be an edge for me, you know, playing with like a man who was really attracted to me a couple of years ago. I had a partner who's like really, like relentlessly greedily, enthusiastic about group sex, you know?

And so we like made a bunch of threesomes with like, everybody who wanted to, because she always wanted to. And that was hard. Like the having a, having a partner who's, you know, really into that, you know, is, is something that like, I really enjoyed that. Yeah. I would love to have a partner who's really into that.

Again,

[02:21:43] Luna: I really love the phrase we made a bunch of threesomes. I think that's, yeah. One of my favorite things that's come outta your mouth. I love that. I really love that. Uh, what about when I come visit you that's not on your bucket list?

[02:22:00] Michael: That's not a bucket list. That's just a, that's just something that's gonna be really nice,

[02:22:03] Luna: just inevitably.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fair. Yeah,

[02:22:05] Michael: exactly. Well, the word no, it's, it's like a, it's a desire you for sure.

[02:22:11] Luna: Mm. Okay. Yeah. What else is on your des desire? I mean, I, I'm so. Opportunistic. I do have a big, long bucket list and I am curious to explore all those things. And what I always tell people is the caveat is not like, I want you to pick a thing to do it just so I cross it off.

I want the other person to be like super duper into it so I can experience this thing with someone who's super duper into it,

[02:22:30] Michael: like, my new lover here, you know, because, you know, the, uh, is like, I want to, I want to want to, I don't, I don't, I don't want to willing to like in the context of an, like an ongoing connection, you know, like there, there are places where like a willing to can be hot, you know?

But like top level, like if I'm building something or starting something new, like I wanna start with the things we both want. Yeah. You know, it's like I and I, and because that's what's hot for me, like what's actually hot for me is like. To, to at least have the belief that my partner really desires this, the experience that we're both having.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why like making sure in the conversation and like trying to find reassurance for myself, like, is this thing, you know, that we're planning on doing something that is actually wanted is like something that really helps me.

[02:23:16] Luna: Absolutely. Yeah.

[02:23:17] Michael: That's the number one thing that shows up for you.

[02:23:19] Luna: That's the number one reason that I want to have multiple partners is because I do, like, just in general, I'm pretty curious about a lot of stuff in an intense way and it's a different energy. Like unless I find a clone of me, which I haven't yet, uh, I've found a lot of horny people,

[02:23:38] Michael: not for lack of trying, not

[02:23:39] Luna: for lack of trying.

I'm just looking for myself. Um, you know, uh, unless I meet someone who really is like. As curious, but even more organized to follow through on making things happen. Because part of what I want is catalyst energy. I am a catalyst for so many people, and so I'm looking for my own catalysts because I don't always want to be, especially in sex responsible for creating all of that energy.

Although there are some contexts where that is extremely satisfying to me. I want more and different. And so I am most interested in experiencing, you know, different energies with people who are like, oh, I fucking love this thing. You know? That was what I enjoyed so much about my first kink experience.

Love it. It deeply gratifying because I had a partner who held space for me and now I can hold space for other people in, you know, a similar but different way. And so it's like, and now and then I'm like, yeah, I don't wanna just go like experience latex with someone who's like, oh yeah, we, we could try latex.

I wanna find the latex nerd that I was on set with six years ago and be like, Hey, do you actually wanna do that thing that you offered me? And like, can you and show me the whole thing and then I could facilitate somebody else's growth exploration. Like those are the ripples of love that I'm curious about.

So, mm-hmm. Totally. Okay. Well I'll have to, when I finish organizing my, the current form of my bucket list, maybe I'll share it with you and we'll see. We'll see what overlap happens. Oh, please do when I get up there. Wrapping up, if you suddenly had an unlimited budget to build your own personal pleasure palace or be in charge of a wing of mine, um, what elements would you include and who would you invite?

[02:25:14] Michael: Yesterday in the Emily Naski book, you know, that I'm listening to right now, uh, she was like, I once was in a house that in the center of the living space, had the pool and a giant garden, and then like all of the, in this big open concept space. And I was like, wow, that sounds luxurious. You know? So if I'm building a pleasure palace Yeah.

I want that, that I want like the, like, yes, please. Like leave it completely, leave it very, very open, you know, and have the whole thing be like humid and full of plants, you know, and, uh oh, and, and have there be like a, a dry sauna off on one side as well.

[02:25:54] Luna: Oh yeah. With comfortable places to play everywhere.

Yeah, yeah. Comfortable. Easy to clean places to play.

[02:26:02] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, it's, that's the advantage of the minimalism, right? Like we've got the, we've got the garden to look after, you know, but, uh, but aside from that, you know, like this one, there's lots of tile, you know?

[02:26:14] Luna: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not too slippery.

Not too slippery of wet. Just the right kind. Yeah, exactly. I love that. Okay. For the good of humanity, what do you think we collectively need to co-create a world where taking care of each other is the norm? How do we create a sexier, more loving world together?

[02:26:36] Michael: I'm really on the page of the understanding shame and vulnerability, you know, is the pathway there.

That, you know, the, the barrier to a lot of the noticing what's going on, I think is, you know, cultural shame, internalized shame, family shame, and figuring out like what helps notice those things, what helps move through those things. You know, like what helps you know, folks be vulnerable and find that, you know, in themselves with each other.

That that's the kind of thing that sort of moves us all sort of socially and interpersonally into a world I'm more interested in. And

[02:27:21] Luna: how do you like the spread ripples of love? I

[02:27:24] Michael: think you, by trying to be open about my own experience and inviting other people to do that.

[02:27:30] Luna: Mm-hmm. You totally do. You totally do.

And deeply, you're such a deep listener. You're such a thoughtful, deep listener.

[02:27:37] Michael: Thank you.

[02:27:39] Luna: Thank you.