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39 lesbian white trans woman, she/her pronouns, submissive, monogamous, married to partner of four years, into: D/s, impact play, hypnosis, role play, TTRPGs, game design, writing, romance novels

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00:00:00:01 - 00:00:21:00

Luna

Our guest today is a 39 year old lesbian, a monogamous, married white trans woman who has been with her partner for four years. She is into dominance and submission on the right side of the flesh, which means submissive impact play, hypnosis and role play. A technology project manager who is in the tabletop role playing games, game design, writing and romance novels.

00:00:21:02 - 00:00:25:22

Luna

Originally from Massachusetts, she now lives in Montreal. Welcome, Elizabeth.

00:00:26:00 - 00:00:28:02

Elizabeth

Hi. Glad to be here.

00:00:28:04 - 00:00:47:09

Luna

I am so excited to have you here. I would love for you to start off by just giving us a little sense of you. Let us know. In general in life, what do you love? What brings you joy? What might you say makes you go woo woo?

00:00:47:11 - 00:01:07:01

Elizabeth

So my wife recently asked me to do, a meme with her one afternoon where it was like, I'm sure some people have seen it because it went around. It was like this, like three by three grid, where you did one for your partner, like. And each square is a different picture based on a different prompt.

00:01:07:03 - 00:01:37:05

Elizabeth

She did one for me. I did one for myself. And then we compared our results. And there's a hobby prompt, and she put romance for fun. It was just a picture of two, two girls kissing. And I felt really seen by that. I really love romance, like across experiences of that, like in my personal life that also in the media I consume, in like stories I tell in different formats.

00:01:37:06 - 00:01:42:15

Elizabeth

So that's. Yeah, I would if I had to give one answer, I think that might be at romance, inclusive of sex.

00:01:42:17 - 00:02:01:22

Luna

I love that so much, and I am so glad that you brought this up all on your own. And also, I've been so excited since I read that you're into romance novel, because I have been kind of on an obsessively deep dive for like, maybe solidly a year unpacking what romance is. And I'm not sure I understand what is romantic.

00:02:01:22 - 00:02:15:18

Luna

I mean, I know that it's I know it can be contextual. I know it has to do with wooing. But I would love to hear, like your thoughts on romance and what you love about it and how you love it. Just just a little a little deep dive.

00:02:15:20 - 00:02:42:18

Elizabeth

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, that's a great question. I have a friend who's going through a complicated situation with an ace partner who wants to stay romantically together, but stop having a sexual relationship. But they're still there. They're poly and is still potentially interested in sex with other people, which has been complicated for him to navigate. And we were, you know, we've been discussing it.

00:02:42:22 - 00:03:03:18

Elizabeth

You know, I've been just trying to understand and support him through it. And we talked about this in particular. Right. Like what is a romantic relationship with that text look like? And I think that there's a ton of answers to that. We are both people who meet me and my friend, I mean, who link those two things together closely.

00:03:03:20 - 00:03:23:04

Elizabeth

So it's it's something that's been like a real challenge for him to imagine what that relationship's going to look like in the future. But they also are clearly different. Right? So, gosh, like, okay, let's start with a romance novel. I love romance novels. Romance novels are so formulaic, right? They have this particular and predictable rhythm to them.

00:03:23:06 - 00:03:43:01

Elizabeth

And even when the book is doing something new, it's probably going to hit some of those, those milestones, right? There's two people meet and there's some sort of initial resistance. There is a reason why they shouldn't be together, even though there's almost, almost always either an instant or very fast attraction where they're like, notice each other and feel drawn.

00:03:43:03 - 00:04:12:23

Elizabeth

And then, they get closer and closer, and then they reach a point where they think like, we can do it, we can be together. And then something really big happens that gets in the way and drives them apart. And then they have one final big challenge they have to overcome, which could be a misunderstanding, or it could be a fight, or it could be something external that comes up that like, they have to make the decision to put in the energy and time to overcome, like one of them has to move or has to quit her job or, you know, whatever it is.

00:04:12:23 - 00:04:32:20

Elizabeth

I say, Sue, because I only request fifth romance. I love that. So yeah, for me it's always shoes, but but I but boys are boys are great too. So like I mean, what does that mean, right? Like, I guess, I guess what it means making me think about right now that that formula, which is just, it's just a storytelling formula.

00:04:32:20 - 00:05:01:17

Elizabeth

Right. But I think it's, it's ultimately about choosing each other. Right. And I think that that's a lot of what romance is. It's about like feeling chosen by the other person, which is a way of saying feeling honored or admired or cared for by the other person. But then, and obviously it's a very specific form of all of those things, like because you can be cared for by a friend, you could be admired by a colleague.

00:05:01:19 - 00:05:06:18

Elizabeth

So it's a little hard to parse out the details there, but I feel like, okay, that's my starting point.

00:05:06:20 - 00:05:28:01

Luna

I think that is really insightful. And for me, you have unlocked the piece, the choosing, because I've been like, okay, it's relational, okay, they're doing something for a specific person. But I think what I'm hearing and what I like, you know, compare it against all the just infinity notes of sex and relationship. But I've been deep diving for the last decade.

00:05:28:03 - 00:05:54:15

Luna

I know so many of us have the desire to be special to another person, and so maybe romance is a choosing. Like I choose you to be special, and the gestures that go along with that are uniquely selected to let that other person know they are special in that person's life. You know, as I noodle into it, I don't know something about specialness and choosing the choosing piece feels important.

00:05:54:15 - 00:06:14:10

Elizabeth

I think that's true. I think for my my friend and I who I was talking about, whose partner sort of wants to continue their relationship with that sex that is like it's something that like is very challenging for him and that I also find very challenging. Like as I was talking about her, I was like, oh gosh, like, I would I would really struggle with that.

00:06:14:10 - 00:06:34:00

Elizabeth

I wanted to be careful as I say this, because I have a lot of I have a lot of friends who are ace or who have some relationship with aces, and that's I fully believe that that is completely valid and wonderful way of being your way to have a relationship. But it would be really hard for me. And it is also very hard to my for my friend.

00:06:34:00 - 00:06:53:22

Elizabeth

And I think it's because we personally lose a sense of specialness, in that, or we, we tend to. Right. And I think that you can overcome that. Like, I mean, I think that because I think the flip side of this can sort of be like, codependence. Right. Or maybe not codependence, but like a.

00:06:54:00 - 00:06:55:06

Luna

An attachment.

00:06:55:08 - 00:07:16:06

Elizabeth

Yes. Something that I struggle with a lot is a need for external validation. It's something that my wife teases me about all the time. You know, I'll sort of be like, it could be anything, right? I'll be like, do you think this outfit is good? And they're like, if her if her answer isn't enthusiastic enough, I'm like, but really though, really, is it okay?

00:07:16:08 - 00:07:31:06

Elizabeth

Feeling special on my own terms, I guess is something that I struggle with a little bit and I think like that need on to another person is something that can be is necessary and also wonderful. Yes, can also be a trap, right? It's something that can get you into trouble.

00:07:31:08 - 00:07:48:05

Luna

I'm so glad that you identified it as necessary because I am an individual who like you. Sex is very important to me. I if I understood what romance was and I was in a relationship and sex wasn't a part of it, I would be very sad. I would not be able to feel as deeply connected as I want.

00:07:48:07 - 00:08:12:05

Luna

However, I am the person that, unlike you, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm like, well, it doesn't really matter what other people think about my work or my thing. All that matters is if I'm doing my work and is satisfying me, and that puts into this like hyper self-sufficient, almost unable to receive, like really needing to deeply receive.

00:08:12:05 - 00:08:29:02

Luna

Like for years. People like, I love your podcast. I'm like, oh, thank you. And I'm like, well, but it's not as good as you know. It's what's inside my head. Or like, well, it's only reaching. So many are like my brain, you know? And so there's a balance there. And I'm so glad that you kind of pointed out that it's, you know, what it really is about a back and forth.

00:08:29:02 - 00:08:43:23

Luna

Okay. So this discussion of romance leads me to one of my other first questions for you, which is how do you like to be wooed by others? Like how do you like to receive love? How do you like to receive attention?

00:08:44:00 - 00:09:15:02

Elizabeth

So all right, well, this question it's it's loaded or complicated for me because because of my gender. Right. Being a trans woman and of course, like I you know, I this probably goes without saying, but still it's I'm sure that every trans woman and trans person is a different experience of this kind of thing. But, I definitely have a like a I, I really want to be like to be wooed very actively.

00:09:15:02 - 00:09:35:11

Elizabeth

Right? Like, I want to be the one who is, like this and then like, have somebody come to me and be like, wow, you're you're so amazing and feminine and beautiful. I find that, like, very, very gender affirming. I respond well to like to where it's like to, you know, to to words of affirmation and like, the love language pilots.

00:09:35:13 - 00:10:04:21

Elizabeth

Yeah, I, I really like to be, like, verbally reassured. This is I had a conversation with my wife recently where like, I felt unfeminine in a specific outfit and I shared that with her and she like, she started a conversation with me about like, what is what does it mean to be like, perceived as feminine, like, you know, like it was this very thoughtful thing about, like about, you know, her experience, like walking around the world and how, you know, she just sort of assumes that she's under scrutiny all the time.

00:10:04:21 - 00:10:21:18

Elizabeth

And like, she wasn't trying to be harsh with me, but there were sort of a suggestion of like, it's tough to be perceived and people aren't going to like you, and you kind of have to adapt to that to some degree. And I was kind of like, everything you're saying sounds very smart and valid. And, this is really not what I want you to be saying right now.

00:10:21:18 - 00:10:38:12

Elizabeth

And later on thinking about it, I just I said outright to her that this is, you know, like we had forgotten all about this conversation or she had. And I was like, by the way, sometimes when I say something like that, I want you to say, oh my gosh, you look so good. And that's all you have to say.

00:10:38:14 - 00:11:01:09

Elizabeth

So, you know, I really like I really like that kind of thing. The way that my wife read me was she is like incredibly thoughtful. So she is somebody who will, like, plan a whole trip for you, right? Will be like, we're going away this weekend. Like, don't you know, don't make any plans and then like, it's, you know, everything is a surprise and like, things are personalized.

00:11:01:11 - 00:11:24:09

Elizabeth

One time we just moved in together because she she needed me to take a whole day off of work. So she told me we were traveling and she sort of dropped hints about an itinerary, but kept it a secret, and I thought I had big parts of it figured out, but actually it was all an excuse because she was flying a friend of mine out to see me, and then I just hung out with my friend all day.

00:11:24:11 - 00:11:37:05

Elizabeth

She's the only partner I've had who has executed plans on that scale or gone to that level of thoughtfulness. And it's like very her, you know, she's very dramatic and like, big likes, big gestures. And I love that.

00:11:37:06 - 00:11:40:16

Luna

That is that romantic. That's romantic. Right. Is that romantic? You.

00:11:40:17 - 00:11:43:11

Elizabeth

It's definitely romantic. Yeah. Oh, it's very romantic.

00:11:43:14 - 00:11:57:21

Luna

Because also it's like very specific. It's specific to you. It's done for you, for your pleasure. And and, I mean, in the case where she flew up, your friend, it's like, well, what, did she hang out with you, too? I mean, that's such a sweet gesture.

00:11:57:23 - 00:12:16:12

Elizabeth

It was both. Right. So, like, we, we had, like, what we did that day. It was, it was like we had brunch with, like, a few friends of hers. And then, like, me and my friend went, like, shopping for a few hours, and then, like, we had dinner with my wife. Right. So it was. Yeah, it was it was great.

00:12:16:14 - 00:12:33:19

Elizabeth

And you're right, it's like it's so it was very personal. That's exactly what makes it such a big thing. This was also I had moved, right. I had moved to Montreal. So I was cut off from all of my friends, you know, shortly before this and, yeah, I was just really thoughtful. And she, she keeps up that pattern.

00:12:33:19 - 00:12:45:20

Elizabeth

Like, not always at that scale, right? It can be much smaller. But she's very thoughtful. And she she's customizing things to me. Right? She's thinking about what I like, and, Yeah, it's it's very intoxicating, I think.

00:12:45:22 - 00:13:07:04

Luna

Wow. Yeah. I, too am a sucker for thoughtfulness and that specificity of, like, wow, that person really sees me. I would love to just hear briefly if there is an evolution over the four years that you've been together of that wooing, like it's an ongoing process to continue to do another one another right. Like, are there any patterns you notice?

00:13:07:04 - 00:13:10:00

Luna

I don't know if this is a good question, but it just I'm curious about no.

00:13:10:00 - 00:13:28:17

Elizabeth

It is a good question. There is like there isn't, there isn't. I think that there is there is like a real constancy that I always have the sense that that she's doing that or someplace something like that might happen, you know, I mean, like buying a plane ticket for my friend is like a pretty big thing. Like, that's not going to happen every week.

00:13:28:19 - 00:13:51:23

Elizabeth

But she does do a lot. I think one of the biggest things that's changed has actually been our openness with each other about what we want. Like particularly her to me. Right. Because she obviously very good at romantic gestures. And I think that, like, I didn't realize when we were first dating how often she felt around me all the time.

00:13:51:23 - 00:14:14:13

Elizabeth

You know, like she, she really liked me, but she was always in this mode of trying to impress me. And she was very good at doing that. So I think I it took me a long time to pick up on how much that was happening. And I think over time we have a lot of days that are like where she'll be like, I've planned out our eight hour day.

00:14:14:13 - 00:14:40:09

Elizabeth

It's like all things that I want to do, and then we're going to a story. I think you'll like it the entire life. Like she's she includes me, but she will be very much like, here's what I wanted to do today, and I'm excited to include you in it. And just to sort of, like, ask for my participation in those things, I feel like you could look at that as that selfishness comes in more or that, I don't know, like the something like that.

00:14:40:09 - 00:14:46:09

Elizabeth

But it's it doesn't feel like that. Right? It feels like a more full sharing of yourself, I guess.

00:14:46:09 - 00:15:08:03

Luna

Yes. Oh, yes. You are so good at parsing those little nuances because, I think I grew up in a society where, yes, I often got the message that to prioritize one's selfish, selfish, but like that is necessary to fill the cup. How does it feel to you to just be invited into that eye, looking at your face?

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:27:19

Luna

Because I can see it. Everyone else out there, you can be jealous. I'm trying to figure out jealousy. I saw a gentle smile. And so, you know, whereas I know for some people, maybe in that connection they wouldn't necessarily feel the same way about that. So it sounds like being included in her initiations is good for you.

00:15:27:21 - 00:15:45:08

Elizabeth

It has two sides, right. Because so so her she loves to craft. Right. That's like her her biggest thing. And that means like it's like a lot of shopping for supplies. She loves to go thrifting and find things, find things that she can use in projects. And she just like all she's a lot of different kinds of crafts.

00:15:45:10 - 00:16:16:16

Elizabeth

She's very, moved from, from, from, from subject to subject so very often will be on these sort of like marathon like shopping days, thrifting days. And it can just be exhausting, right? Like, like last night, actually, she's doing like redecorating in our kitchen for Christmas. She wants it to be like Maxi Festive. And we were out at 9 p.m. going to thrift stores, and it was snowing and I was like, I want to go, but it's day to day, you know, like it's it's word, it's energy.

00:16:16:16 - 00:16:41:00

Elizabeth

It's like there are there are a lot of moments of just being like, okay, I'm going to be patient through this situation. I know that it's important to her. But on the other hand, yeah, it's like if she went to elaborate lengths to do those things on her own without including me, or just didn't do them, and, you know, like, that was sort of, you know, whatever, like leaving those things aside to make space for me.

00:16:41:02 - 00:17:01:10

Elizabeth

Well, I guess, I mean, I guess to put it in the terms you've been using, it's she can be somebody who's hard to make feel special because she tends to be very oriented around others. Right. Like she tends to be like, I mean, she always jokes about she loves giving gifts and she really does not care about receiving gifts.

00:17:01:10 - 00:17:23:15

Elizabeth

Right? Like she's kind of, like, sometimes mortified by it. Like, oh, gosh. Like you're looking at me while I open this thing that you got me. This is. This is the worst. This is the worst feeling. Yeah. She can be hard to romance in that way. So having the, you know, even though it is, like, real work and that there are days where I'm kind of like, oh, gosh.

00:17:23:15 - 00:17:43:09

Elizabeth

Like, I'm just tired right now. I don't want to be doing this. It is still just like it's it feels basic to the relationship that it's one of the best ways I have to make her feel special, is to participate in, in the things that that she asks for and that she's excited for. Wow.

00:17:43:11 - 00:17:56:18

Luna

I love that. Okay, you mentioned that. Also, she has been opening up to you more about her wants desires, needs. I can't remember exactly how you language do it, but what did you do to invite that?

00:17:56:20 - 00:18:16:23

Elizabeth

I definitely asked, right? Like, I think I definitely would have moments where I was just like, what do you want to do? Like, and I think it was important to do, but it wasn't the most important thing. I think that my wife, who I love so dearly, is like, she's very capable of just being like, oh, but you don't really want to know.

00:18:17:01 - 00:18:40:09

Elizabeth

You know, she's, she's she's very capable of sort of downplaying that those kinds of, like, explicit offers of support and just sort of being like, like, you know, that's very polite of you to say. So it really was about enthusiasm follows her. Right. It's like about actually being like, yeah, sure. Let's do that. Like, yeah, you want to go, you want to go to a thrift store, like let's go.

00:18:40:09 - 00:18:57:00

Elizabeth

Yeah. And finding ways to sort of engage in that experience I always go to I always go to books. Right. Like when we go to the thrift store, I go over to the, like the book aisle and like, I even bought a lot of books. And now I'm kind of like on a hiatus from like, it has a really a high bar.

00:18:57:02 - 00:19:20:16

Elizabeth

I have too many right now. Like, room is overflowing. But it's like my way of kind of like, like, okay, like, I like this is something that I can get really into at the thrift store. And, like, I'm, I'm usually happy to spend, you know, like 20 minutes or half an hour going through every, every book and wave within each one's merit.

00:19:20:18 - 00:19:32:11

Elizabeth

To answer your original question, it's like this, you know, like leaning in and really being willing to participate in that, which, like sometimes is work and requires energy and like creativity to some degree.

00:19:32:11 - 00:19:33:14

Luna

But oh my gosh.

00:19:33:17 - 00:19:35:09

Elizabeth

It's been really positive.

00:19:35:11 - 00:19:57:07

Luna

That's exactly what my next wonder was about, because as I was hearing you talk, I can't help but wonder if your ability to accept those invitations and receive the gifts and surprises from her is an invitation for opening up and closeness. You know, it sounds like it's taking place over the course of years, but do you think that's at play there?

00:19:57:07 - 00:20:13:13

Luna

Like, I know that's kind of an esoteric question, but like, do you think that you're I mean, I observe a comfort in receiving the way you tell stories to. So I don't I don't know if that's true for you, but do you think that your like willingness to receive from her is part of that opening up?

00:20:13:15 - 00:20:37:01

Elizabeth

I think it is like it's it's harder for me to parse out actually because the like she's done things for me that I just like, like the story I told about my like her flying my friend up. Yeah, I just, I don't know how to talk about that on straight. It's just sort of like it was so sweet and so thoughtful and so unexpected that I guess that it's like, I can't help.

00:20:37:01 - 00:21:03:15

Elizabeth

I'd feel so deeply grateful about those things. And I think, I think that, like, one thing that's been really important in just how great this relationship has been. And like you, so we we got married this year and I'm somebody who for a very long time I've been very reluctant about marriage. My parents are divorced. That's probably part of it.

00:21:03:15 - 00:21:31:23

Elizabeth

And, well, I don't know. And I just had never, been in a relationship where I felt really excited about, like. Yeah, like, I want, I want, I definitely could like, like, bind myself in a way that would be kind of hard to undo to this person. But there is just like a consistency over time of her doing these things, like whether they were big or small, that made me feel, like, you know, like, carrying a lot about, like, groceries.

00:21:31:23 - 00:22:06:07

Elizabeth

She gets, you know, like, being, like, sometimes she'll just be like, I'm so sorry they didn't have this brand of things that you like. So I got this other brand, and I'll be like, it's fine. This, you know, but it's like the fact that the fact that she's like, big or small, she is like, very invested in, in giving this level of attention and care to me that, is, you know, I mean, we were we were talking we were talking in the beginning about sort of like specialness and feeling chosen.

00:22:06:07 - 00:22:15:13

Elizabeth

Like it makes me feel very chosen. You know, it makes me feel very special. And that fills feel some of the need I have for validation.

00:22:15:15 - 00:22:18:14

Luna

Yeah. Were you always monogamous?

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:42:03

Elizabeth

That's it. So, yes, I, I basically have been my whole life I would describe myself as a, as a serial monogamist. I have had like a handful of relationships and they all lasted years. And it's not really a way of approaching relationships. I recommend, like, even as I practice it, I tend to like early in a romance.

00:22:42:03 - 00:23:01:11

Elizabeth

I tend to be very all or nothing like I, this is something that like, you know, the last time I was sort of on the dating scene, I would like I was just petrified. So I would tell people, like, I tend to kind of signal that I'm all in very quickly, but like, I want to keep it casual right now.

00:23:01:13 - 00:23:32:17

Elizabeth

So, anyway, so I, I've the, I've, I've always been in these sort of like most of my life has been in longer term, serious relationships that were always monogamous. And at the end of my last relationship, we as a couple went through a phase where we were talking about polyamory and and in retrospect, it was as a way of we were trying to paper over the cracks in our relationship.

00:23:32:17 - 00:23:47:10

Elizabeth

Right. I think there was a little bit of sense of like, neither of our needs are being met right now. Maybe somebody else could meet some of these needs and then their relationship would still work. Which is not to be clear. It's not my opinion of what polyamory is. That was just where we were at as a couple.

00:23:47:11 - 00:23:53:01

Luna

And it is a common pattern in people who are exploring it or trying it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:53:03 - 00:24:12:03

Elizabeth

I've, I've definitely seen I've seen other friends of mine go through a similar place where you're kind of like aware they've been on the rocks and they're like, we're opening up our relationship. And you're like, I wonder if you're doing this for the right reasons. Well, so after that, after we broke up, I was very down to explore polyamory and it sort of didn't.

00:24:12:05 - 00:24:34:16

Elizabeth

Basically, I got into another long relationship very quickly, relatively speaking, so just stayed true to form, but hopefully with my eyes a little more open. And unfortunately, that was my wife. And that's turned out very well. So I've always been monogamous like I did. I went through a period of like intense curiosity. Oh, it actually was also around if you're checking your calendars.

00:24:34:16 - 00:24:46:10

Elizabeth

It was around the start of the lockdowns, at the start of Covid 19. So it was like the dating scene wasn't super happening in like March 20th, 2020. Yeah.

00:24:46:12 - 00:25:07:16

Luna

Oh, I love I love hearing these details about your connection. Truly. When I hear people who are obviously deeply in love with their partners and the partners are supportive, it really does inspire me. And I think it's important to highlight these foundations. So I would love to know how do you love yourself? How do you who you.

00:25:07:18 - 00:25:51:00

Elizabeth

So this I like I think my answer to this is very connected to is very connected to gender, because I think that up until I transitioned, which was a while ago, now I, I started transitioning, I would probably say in 2016. And so eight years ago as of now, and, it was a pretty effort at the time of free, radical acts of honesty and self-care for me that, I had I can remember before that point having this deep sense around gender, but also I've learned a lot of things, and especially around sex and romance, having this deep sense of constraint that like there were certain things that weren't just weren't options for me.

00:25:51:02 - 00:26:14:04

Elizabeth

In particular, I was I was in a relationship at that point that was like had been up and it had ups and downs and definitely had a lot of ups too. But that at that time, at the time that I was deciding to transition, like I wasn't fully happy with and making the decision to do this thing that was like that was for me and that.

00:26:14:04 - 00:26:35:23

Elizabeth

But obviously, like expectations, I didn't face a lot of headwinds. It's, you know, there weren't a lot of like transphobic people in my life, including my family, fortunately. So it was really like it was, you know, it was easy going as things go. Right. Like, I'm, I'm, which I'm very thankful for. But it's still just like, you know, there's an innate sort of like the default is not transitioning, right.

00:26:35:23 - 00:27:03:21

Elizabeth

Oh, right. Like it requires like, you know, you do have to be you have to say something that you want very honestly, and then you have to kind of insist on it over and over again. And I think that that was that marked a huge change for me, in ways that went beyond gender. Right. Like, I think that living as, as the right gender, as a gender that felt authentic, it has all sorts of, like wonderful knock on effects, right?

00:27:03:21 - 00:27:39:16

Elizabeth

Like, do you feel better? In all sorts of ways. But I think that there's a fundamental way in which, just like insisting on something that I wanted was really important, the like, the fact that there was anything that I sort of fought for was really important. And yeah, so I think, like in the wake of that, I got a lot better at communicating, particularly with, with intimate partners like I although I think with, you know, my friends in general, like, I think I'm capable of being much more sort of emotionally present with my friends than I was before that point.

00:27:39:18 - 00:28:06:07

Elizabeth

So that's that's a big part of it is just sort of like being open, communicative about what you need, including being willing to take on conflict. I am somebody who needs a lot of who needs time alone and like time kind of idle time. That's important to me. And if I don't get over time, like, you know, can be deleterious for me and my wife, we have a very good balance with this, I think.

00:28:06:07 - 00:28:25:01

Elizabeth

But she is somebody who can be very like, go, go, go. Like she always wants to be active. She wants to have a project. She's we've we've gotten very good at her, sort of like including me in some things. And also having periods where like she'll be off for, you know, for hours sewing or whatever. And I'm like, great, I'm not.

00:28:25:01 - 00:28:35:19

Elizabeth

I'm by myself. I don't want to talk to anybody. Yes. So that's an important thing for me is like finding space for for that I need space to be by myself.

00:28:35:21 - 00:28:50:19

Luna

Yeah. I'd love to hear little specifics of how you use that solo time. I'm going to guess reading, writing. I know playing games is with people, but it's sort of alone. It's sort of together, but like what? What are the ways that you romance yourself during that time alone?

00:28:50:21 - 00:29:00:18

Elizabeth

Yes. Those things, the two things I've been reading a lot like this year, I feel like are our romance novels and all science fiction?

00:29:00:18 - 00:29:09:12

Luna

Yes. Like that's my favorite. I love Ursula, Kayla Gwynne like, and Robert Heinlein like, they're my lover. Classic sci fi is my top, top, top favorite.

00:29:09:14 - 00:29:29:18

Elizabeth

Oh, awesome. That's great. Yeah, yeah it is. It's good of the. Gwen. Yeah. The Gwen terms of at one is a very important book for me, and I think it's like it feels very tied to two gender for me. Like, I guess I'll just say that like. And to the way I think about womanhood as a trans woman.

00:29:29:20 - 00:29:47:13

Elizabeth

Anyway. Yeah. Ursula. Kayla, Gwen is is really wonderful. I do, I do write, I have, I have my own projects. I mean, like, I, I some of the first friends of my own I made in Montreal is like a little writer's circle that meets up every month. And they're all just really wonderful. And that's been really positive.

00:29:47:15 - 00:30:13:10

Elizabeth

It's interesting too, because I think sometimes time with a different group can be the same as time alone, if you know what I mean. Like, like going off to see my writer's group is like, it's not the same as sitting or reading or sitting or writing, but it is like restorative in a way that being with like a really close friend or a or an intimate partner isn't necessarily the, and yeah, no, I, I play that.

00:30:13:10 - 00:30:45:00

Elizabeth

So I play a lot of games, which is interesting because, I mean, I play, you know, I play, like I've been playing Dragon Age, for instance, like a big video game recently, but I also play a lot of ttrpg is Dungeons and Dragons and, and, and similar for the uninitiated who might be listening, which is actually like a it's a big way that I like, express and think about romance and and gender for that matter, has been has been through those games.

00:30:45:02 - 00:30:59:13

Elizabeth

And like, you know, if you if you have the right people to play with, it can be like, really? I don't know, I feel like I've gotten a lot of that and learned learned a lot doing that. Yeah. So those are those are some of the things I do at that time.

00:30:59:15 - 00:31:17:15

Luna

I love that. Okay. Transitioning toward the more explicitly erotic parts. I'd love to hear. When do you feel most connected to other humans, and what do you actually need in order for a connection to become physically intimate?

00:31:38:16 - 00:31:43:06

Luna

Originally from Massachusetts, she now lives in Montreal. Welcome, Elizabeth.

00:31:43:14 - 00:31:45:14

Elizabeth

Hi. Glad to be here.

00:31:45:15 - 00:31:57:05

Luna

I'd love to hear. When do you feel most connected to other humans, and what do you actually need in order for a connection to become physically intimate?

00:31:57:07 - 00:32:18:03

Elizabeth

So I haven't had a great many partners in my life. And this is like tied to the pattern I talked about. Like my I tend to be in long monogamous relationships, which, again, I don't recommend stuff. My favorite way of being. It's just the way that I have I have operated, so I haven't had a great number of partners.

00:32:18:05 - 00:32:42:26

Elizabeth

It's interesting because it's very easy. Like, I get crushes a lot. I like, I am super attracted to people like my like this. I it's very something that is wonderful about my wife is that I can go to her and just be like like, oh my God, like that character in that movie. So hot, like, you know, I can just I can just say that and express that.

00:32:42:26 - 00:33:07:24

Elizabeth

And it's it's all copacetic. So I have those kinds of feelings a lot. I get crushes a lot, but like, I haven't taken the transition from not being intimate to being intimate that often. And like, honestly, I think I'm terrible at it. Like, I think I'm really bad at it. Why? My my friend and I were joking. Like my wife just told a story of, like, a romantic adventure from her past.

00:33:07:25 - 00:33:26:03

Elizabeth

Ricky, you know, like, was was making out with somebody at a party, and we were just like, my friends and I were both just kind of like, I don't think. I don't think this is real. I don't think this has ever happened. I'm pretty sure people don't hook up and party together. I have never been able to make it happen.

00:33:26:05 - 00:33:28:19

Elizabeth

Joking, obviously, because I know that it does happen.

00:33:28:25 - 00:33:43:18

Luna

I know, but also I was 27 when I picked up my first person at a party, and I remember, like, taking them back to my house, but we were driving separate cars and I was like, it's happening. I'm a real grown up. Is this a good idea? I don't know, yeah, but he was like a friend of a friend who was like a vouched for.

00:33:43:18 - 00:33:47:14

Luna

But I and the party never. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

00:33:47:16 - 00:34:02:01

Elizabeth

You know, and it is like, whenever I'm in that space, I am, like, kind of terrified. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So like what? So I think that there's a difference between like, what it takes and what it takes for it to be really successful.

00:34:02:03 - 00:34:03:23

Luna

Good distinction.

00:34:03:25 - 00:34:42:20

Elizabeth

The difference that I see in relationships that have started with just sort of immediate sexual chemistry and relationships that have taken a lot longer to build to that have to do with like expectations I think. And going in with more of a sense of openness to seeing what this new experience will be like versus sort of going in with like a very clear picture of what was going to happen and what it was going to be like because it like never was.

00:34:42:20 - 00:35:05:14

Elizabeth

And like the, there's a particular experience I'm thinking of where, like, I think I had very specific I was, I was young, I just, I feel like I, I sort of like projected what I wanted onto my partner. And I think that she shaped herself around that. Was kind of like, oh, like, I'll give you what you want.

00:35:05:16 - 00:35:31:23

Elizabeth

And if both, like, didn't like, I think it was clear that something was off and like that, you know, I think led to more and more problems down the line. So I think, I mean, I guess I would say communication clearly like to say what it is that you want for them to be able to say what they want or what they don't want, and then also a willingness to see what the shape of it is going to be and to like, hopefully it's something that really works for you.

00:35:31:25 - 00:35:48:17

Elizabeth

It's great. And maybe it's not. And then like, you know, being willing to like, back away if that's the case, which I haven't always done, like, you know, I've, I've had relationships that I think sort of started like there was sort of a mismatch and what we were looking for, and we just stuck with it.

00:35:48:19 - 00:35:49:14

Luna

Yeah.

00:35:49:16 - 00:35:57:03

Elizabeth

And it didn't actually like that. Never fundamentally fixed itself. Yeah.

00:35:57:05 - 00:36:14:15

Luna

Is there as I hear you talk about communication and expectations, I also wonder if there is a piece that's important that's connected to feeling safe. Like if we're communicating, you know, a safety, a factor for you, or if it is, how is it.

00:36:14:17 - 00:36:36:14

Elizabeth

Obviously you have to feel, you have to feel safe to in order to feel. Then I think I think I've I've been very lucky in that. I mean, and part of it comes from mostly having partners who I'm sort of starting to get involved with. I've generally felt very safe at that at the start. So it's usually the safety is really there.

00:36:36:14 - 00:37:09:26

Elizabeth

But it's interesting is when I think, like I think I haven't, I haven't always felt safe during sex, but I mean something very specific like that, right. Like, I mean that I have felt like I'm taking a big emotional risk. That is only possible if you're not taking any physical risk, right? Like, does that make sense? Yeah. That it's only because I felt like absolutely no sense of danger in any other sense that I'm like, I've been able at times to be very emotionally open and and vulnerable.

00:37:09:28 - 00:37:23:26

Elizabeth

And when I say emotional, like, like sex isn't always about like you don't always know the person's whole life story, right? But it's still about like, connecting very openly and being very, like, available and like giving what they want and getting what you want.

00:37:23:28 - 00:37:45:21

Luna

Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. Moving squarely into sexy topics. If you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame meter with ten being the most full of sexual shame and zero being happy and free, where do you fall today? On when, if ever, does it squiggle around on a coaster?

00:37:45:23 - 00:38:19:25

Elizabeth

Ooh, I remember my low point from my life. Probably. I'm out. Like, a four or a three. I think that I, I surprised myself with this sometimes because I think of myself as being very low shame. And then. Okay, okay. Sorry. This is, like a gender story that I feel like it illustrates this topic. So after I knew I was trans, was trans, but before I transitioned, I was having a conversation with, like, a woman friend of mine who had no idea I was thinking about gender things where like, I can't remember what I said.

00:38:19:27 - 00:38:39:16

Elizabeth

We're talking about a group of high school students. You know, we're talking about the gender and dynamics about like, the way that like the the boys and girls in this class seem to interact in a very particular way. And, I just had something that something that was sort of like scornful of the gender binary. And she was like, it's really interesting to hear you say that.

00:38:39:16 - 00:39:12:24

Elizabeth

And I was like, why? And she was like, I don't know, like you, just you you dress like a guy. Dresses like, you know, I don't I don't mean that as an insult, but that's just like like that's that's what I observe. And I was kind of shook because I was like, that's not how I feel inside. But actually it's sort of the like knowing that I had some sort of gender thing going on was like, I was actually really putting myself in a box in terms of my presentation, because I just, I guess I felt like that would be glaringly obvious to everybody around me.

00:39:12:24 - 00:39:31:24

Elizabeth

So I stayed with like very safe choices. And, it really I was like a real moment of like, whoa, like, oh, I look different from the outside. Yeah. And I think, I think I can be that way with sex, too, where I, I've sort of had moments where people were like, oh, like, I'm into that kind of thing too.

00:39:31:24 - 00:39:41:17

Elizabeth

And people would be like, really? I didn't know. And I'll sort of be like, oh, but I thought, isn't it obvious from what's inside my head?

00:39:41:19 - 00:39:42:28

Luna

Yes.

00:39:43:00 - 00:40:00:26

Elizabeth

That's why I give myself sort of like this. I bought myself a few points for that because, like I do, I sort of come to recognize that I have some level of like, and, you know, just like privacy or shyness, which isn't necessarily something that's ever tied to shame. But I think for me, it's kind of unconscious.

00:40:00:26 - 00:40:29:06

Elizabeth

And that makes me say like, yeah, that probably has some connection to shame, right? Like if you're unconsciously sort of like avoiding topics, avoiding certain topics and certain people, it feels like there's something there where I'm like a little shy about it, you know, honestly, like something that's coming up for me as I'm talking about it. Is that one of the sort of like most pervasive slanders about trans people is like that they're sexual predators.

00:40:29:14 - 00:41:11:05

Elizabeth

The reason people transition is obviously so that they can they can, quote unquote, go into bathrooms and assault people. Right. Like, yeah, it's insane on like 12 different levels. But that is something actually that I think does have a profound effect on me. And I'm specifically I can be very nervous about being too forwardly sexual out of a fear that it will come off a certain way sometimes, like I have been in situations where people completely, completely legitimately like, you know, we're kind of like, I don't know, like something, something risque or sexy would come up and people would kind of signal discomfort right into the conversation, backs off, which is completely fine.

00:41:11:16 - 00:41:38:26

Elizabeth

Yeah. And like, that kind of thing can hit me really hard, right? I can sort of go into kind of a panic spiral and be like, I was being creepy. I was being predatory, like, like everybody thinks that I'm like a man. It's like creeping on them, you know? Yeah. So I think that's I think that's a part of it too, that like, I have a little bit of a self-censorship out of, like, sort of this ongoing fear.

00:41:38:26 - 00:42:00:20

Elizabeth

There's I think there's a term for this called stereotype threat that I heard once, which is like the idea that you if there's a if you're part of a marginalized group and there's a stereotype about you, you feel that awareness of the stereotype that you're trying to avoid, like you're trying to be like, I'm going to be the opposite of that stereotype.

00:42:00:22 - 00:42:24:19

Elizabeth

It's not shame that I consciously own. I'm not like, yeah, I feel a certain level of shame because it's wrong, but I'm just I think that it does sort of contribute to this little, like bubble of, like, I should just be a little more private and like a little more reserved and like, not, not share quite as openly, that the people around me, which is one reason why I like I was really keen to go on the show, is I love intentional spaces for it.

00:42:24:19 - 00:42:29:26

Elizabeth

Right. Like I love the idea of like, let's have a very intentional space to just really talk about it.

00:42:29:28 - 00:42:55:18

Luna

I'm so grateful that you're here. I love hearing all of that, and I love how fucking thoughtful you are. And also, I want to share my experience. First of all, thank you for teaching me the concept of stereotype threat. I actually didn't know about that. And you know, I connect. Obviously, I have a completely different experience. I am a woman and I am normatively considered attractive by people.

00:42:55:18 - 00:43:26:24

Luna

I got that old Hollywood look, but I really relate to the fear of being creepy because I do not trust my own, or rather because I'm still practicing learning to trust my own sense of the social signals that are happening in the room. And because I have had many experiences where I didn't understand where other people's shame triggers were, and I want to just like highlight and circle back to what you said about secrecy and privacy.

00:43:26:26 - 00:43:52:25

Luna

You mentioned privacy. I'm adding the layer of secrecy because I think it's actually totally valid to have these spaces where it's like, of course I don't want to like on purpose, trigger other people, but also sometimes I just don't want someone else's blessing foisted upon me. And so while I am very, very, very open when I have met someone, I'm talking to them one on one.

00:43:52:25 - 00:44:10:25

Luna

And they want to know, you know, the details of what it's like to be a sex worker in all the ways that I am. I love sharing that. I'm still like wrapping my brain around the concept that I'm part of a technically marginalized group, even though I'm like, what I'm the most privileged girl in the world. I just don't understand people, and that can be difficult, you know?

00:44:10:25 - 00:44:37:07

Luna

And so I think there's a huge value that is maybe parallel to shame, but like privacy is valuable because what I notice is that in private spaces, we are safe to explore parts of ourselves that we can't necessarily explore. Outside of that little bubble, you know, and it's contingencies and it's almost like we are ever evolving beings.

00:44:37:07 - 00:45:01:23

Luna

Hopefully, I think hopefully I like evolutions, I like learning, I like growing, these are my values. But I know that's not everyone, but, you know, I think that there it's a whole layered, nuanced concept. And I definitely have places where when I know, you know when I know that I'm in a group of women who hate men. Sometimes I'm afraid to talk about how much I love sucking cock, but then I still will, you know?

00:45:01:23 - 00:45:24:16

Luna

Or when I'm in a group of wives who hate sex workers, I'm like, oh, now might not be the time to mention that I, I've, you know, been with a husband or two in my day, you know, and also, I know that in the moments where I don't stop to think, sometimes I really do put myself out there in a way that if I was more thoughtful, I probably wouldn't.

00:45:24:18 - 00:45:38:21

Luna

But oftentimes I end up accidentally teaching. You know, sometimes there's this comfort, but I end up teaching people or kind of like sharing these parts of myself. And so it's it's a whole layered thing and totally related to how well fed or rested or resourced.

00:45:38:21 - 00:45:39:03

Elizabeth

Oh my God.

00:45:39:03 - 00:45:42:21

Luna

In a given moment. So I love that you brought that up.

00:45:42:23 - 00:46:06:23

Elizabeth

That is like the it's so fascinating. I think I think it's something I think about more and more because I'm just in such a stable. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm married now. Like things still very stable. Become so aware of like these rhythms of, like the rhythms of the body, right. Of just being like, well, like it's we have errands to run and we haven't eaten dinner, so we're going to have a fight.

00:46:06:23 - 00:46:36:03

Elizabeth

That's just how it goes, right? Yeah. Like, you know, it's it's like, you know, this, it's completely independent of anything that's actually happening. It's just like, well, like, we like, we're doing something complicated and we haven't eaten in six hours, so that's how like, it's it's going to happen as well. I guess I was just thinking that there's a way in which if you're having, like, good sex or you if you're having a great sex event, like, that's kind of like the the ultimate intentional space for exploring that kind of thing.

00:46:36:03 - 00:46:38:24

Elizabeth

Like the I.

00:46:38:25 - 00:46:40:19

Luna

Think it is.

00:46:40:21 - 00:47:13:06

Elizabeth

Yeah. So something that I've done, something that I've done with, with, with my wife is like I'm submissive in a relationship and sometimes I've asked to be called slurs, right? Like, which is like isn't something that I'm, I always want, but like, it's feels, it can feel really good and liberating in the moment. And that's something that like we talked about at certain points, you know, like like sort of afterwards who would sort of be like, look, I just can we talk like what's going on there?

00:47:13:06 - 00:47:37:02

Elizabeth

Because like, you know, I feel like the I feel like how it works for you, but like, it's, you know, it's a little tough for me and like, the best I've been able to explain it, which feels very related to submission in general, is that it's sort of like, it's like this fantasy of, I don't know, like the worst thing happening and you're still safe and okay while it's happening.

00:47:37:02 - 00:47:43:25

Elizabeth

So then that feels like really good. And really liberating from those fears and anxieties.

00:47:43:29 - 00:48:07:02

Luna

I totally relate to that. My origins are service, submissive, like I am a creature of service no matter what. Most often I am working in top space, but regardless of the medium, you know whether I'm in person with someone, whether I'm doing a coaching call, whether I'm on this podcast, whether I'm doing a photography and or videography session, you know, like I'm holding space for people most often in my life.

00:48:07:04 - 00:48:27:07

Luna

And I know that when I used to get fucked in the ass by my first dominant, I just wanted to be called the filthiest names. And there was something so liberating about that. You know, being a cum dumpster or an anal whore or whatever, you know, whatever we were like, I was like the filthiest. Like, that's when I wanted to get called the dirtiest stuff.

00:48:27:07 - 00:48:47:02

Luna

When I was having this really intense experience. And not only did I feel like, oh yes, my fear of being called a whore is coming true. I mean, I did get called a whore by a girl when I was 15 and I was like, what? I haven't even what, like this clean I could, Oh, you know, and then it happened again with like, Instagram and YouTube.

00:48:47:02 - 00:49:08:00

Luna

So, you know, and so in those moments, I'm like, oh, not only am I like claiming those fears, I'm also like, I'm okay, I am desired. And also like, that stuff doesn't matter. And then for me, it starts to feel like a sweet pet name because it's coming from someone who I know really cares about me. So that's kind of like my internal experience of, yeah.

00:49:08:02 - 00:49:11:22

Elizabeth

No, I feel totally the same way.

00:49:11:24 - 00:49:30:16

Luna

Before we get into like specifics, I would love to hear what are your current health and safety practices? I mean, you're in a monogamous relationship, but like maybe give us a overview throughout the years. But like health and safety, I always love to just presents it in a conversation. So like what do you need to be safe? Like how do you handle that stuff?

00:49:30:18 - 00:50:01:27

Elizabeth

Okay. Yeah. It's interesting. Like it's so I've been mostly in monogamous relationships. So generally safety for me has looked like, you know, getting getting tested at the start of a relationship. And then generally I was, you know, like I would be monogamous with that person going forward. So in terms of STIs, we weren't too worried. Like an interesting like big transition, transition has been going from being like testosterone bodied to being estrogen bodied.

00:50:01:29 - 00:50:22:20

Elizabeth

That so that affects fertility first of all. And it also has like I mean, it it affects although it's like you know, I think that there are still there's still definitely like trans women who are the what's the term who are like the giver in penetrative sex using their own bodies like, like it can also affect your ability to do that.

00:50:22:20 - 00:50:46:06

Elizabeth

And like for me, I like I, I ceased to be interested in penetrative sex using my, my deck like at a certain point, like before I transitioned even, like, I think, you know, I had sort of been like, I'm not really into it. Like, let's do other stuff. And, so that, like that changes the safety conversation a lot.

00:50:46:06 - 00:51:17:02

Elizabeth

Right. Like, which is in, in a great way, because you're like, it's, there's a lot that you don't have to worry about. You know, so like, before that I would pretty routinely use condoms, and, usually even with a partner, most of my partners have usually also been, most of my partners have been women, mostly cis women, and they've, like, very often been on birth control in addition to that, sometimes just for safety and sometimes for other reasons, you know, because there's, there's lots of reasons to take birth control.

00:51:17:04 - 00:51:32:20

Elizabeth

Yeah. So the, the it changed a lot for me when I stopped having TV sex. But like, general like testing at the start of our relationship and then, you know, like a level of protection appropriate to the risks that we were taking after that point.

00:51:32:21 - 00:51:36:24

Luna

However. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Now let's get into details.

00:51:36:26 - 00:51:37:15

Elizabeth

00:51:37:17 - 00:52:00:16

Luna

I would love to hear, like, how you learned about how do you want to pass at love sex Connection growing up. You know, and I love to learn about your learnings by taking us through your meaningful sexual timeline. Maybe starting with the first time you remember the concept of sex entering your awareness.

00:52:00:18 - 00:52:19:25

Elizabeth

Oh, it's. I have this, like, vague memory, of, the first time it entered my awareness, I had a book when I was little. That was, I think it was called Where Two Babies Come From, and it was these really funny illustrations of, like, kind of lumpy people. I don't think it's like, great. Like, I love these illustrations.

00:52:19:27 - 00:52:38:20

Elizabeth

I don't know, like, it just they weren't like, like Hollywood people. It looks like, you know, like, you know, it's sort of like, a very comfortable couple in their 40s who like, you know, like, don't work out because, like, I'm not worried about meeting people anymore, right? So, like, I don't care how I look. Right. Like, they just these, like, very comfy, cozy people having sex.

00:52:38:20 - 00:52:59:26

Elizabeth

And then it was like a whole thing where it's like, yeah, first they have sex and like, here's the mechanics of that. And it's so funny. Like, I was, I was reading this and I was like 5 or 6 and I was like, like, you know, you don't even have a sense of embarrassment about it. And like, I think that the book was very good at talking about that, like kind of without instilling it, without being like this is shameful and you should keep it private.

00:52:59:27 - 00:53:21:20

Elizabeth

It's kind of like these parts are kind of private. Anyway, here's what happens. It's not even very interesting. So, like, it's funny because, like, I feel like I, I read this book and I was kind of like, okay, now I know where babies come from. And it was it like, you know, like years later, I was like, oh, yeah, what I'm learning about is like in that book, like, oh, these like sexy things.

00:53:21:20 - 00:53:44:07

Elizabeth

Is that, like kind of mechanical process that they were describing? That's interesting. I got so I had a sort of formative experience when I was, I don't know, like ten, 11, 12 in that range where my mom bought me this book that was called Boys and Sex. I remember that, but I can't really remember any other details about it at all.

00:53:44:15 - 00:54:08:18

Elizabeth

And it was like, the thing I remember is that, like I learned about the Kinsey reports from it, like it, you know, it referred back to like the Kinsey reports. Right? So it was maybe not the most up to date, but it was scientifically grounded. Anyway, it was a really chill book, like, I don't know, like, I, I don't know if it talked about queerness and that's like something that I feel like I didn't learn a lot about when I was young, but it did.

00:54:08:18 - 00:54:26:02

Elizabeth

It had a lot of really positive messages in it and really specific. I remember it saying was sort of like, some people feel like they need to take a shower after sex, but like, you don't need to. There's nothing, there's nothing like dirty about it. But you can if you want. Right? It was a sort of it was very destigmatizing, that's all.

00:54:26:02 - 00:54:44:21

Elizabeth

And it was, you know, it talked a lot about like, masturbation, like masturbation is normal, like all sorts of sexual activity is normal. Oral sex is normal, even I think I think where it did mention homosexuality, I was just kind of like, yeah, some people are gay. Yeah. Like enough, you know, that was and that was sort of all of the.

00:54:44:23 - 00:55:02:07

Elizabeth

Yeah. And it also it like it, it also did talk about STDs and pregnancy risk, but you know in like very neutral ways of like these are things that can happen. So like be aware of them. And I don't you know, it's funny like this book, I feel like this book had a profound impact on me. And like, I don't know, I don't know anything about it.

00:55:02:07 - 00:55:26:04

Elizabeth

Like, I don't know who wrote it or how my parents found it, but, had a very like I was I think it was a very positive thing to be reading. Like when I was a teen, I, I masturbate flat like, that was a really important sexual outlet for me for a long time, which it and it's interesting because, you know, like the way my body's changed on estrogen.

00:55:26:04 - 00:55:27:29

Elizabeth

I don't really masturbate much anymore.

00:55:28:05 - 00:55:29:04

Luna

Okay.

00:55:29:06 - 00:55:52:02

Elizabeth

It's so worth it. But it is like a loss. I feel I'm like, that's true. I really liked masturbating. This really nice. It's like so, like, you know, it's I don't know, it's just like, it's really fun. It's like very comfortable, like, because there's no pressure from anywhere. Like, it's a simple. It's like you and your you and your body and your imagination and, it was.

00:55:52:02 - 00:56:24:28

Elizabeth

Yeah, it was like a really important outlet for me for a long time, especially when I was in like, I had I had one particular relationship where we at a certain point in the relationship, it was like we were very out of sync sexually. I mean, stopped having sex for a long time, essentially more or less. And, it was like, I don't know, it it was something that felt very like, familiar and comforting to be able to come back to, in that kind of situation.

00:56:25:00 - 00:56:50:29

Elizabeth

Yeah. And then I had a I had a girlfriend in high school, you know, like late in high school, who we were, like, we were we were very good kids, like, sort of for a little slow to get sexually active, but, you know, like, eventually we started. We started, like, you know, parking and, empty parking lots on the weekends and, like, making out a bunch and doing hand stuff as the kids say it.

00:56:51:01 - 00:56:54:14

Luna

I love hand stuff.

00:56:54:15 - 00:57:16:26

Elizabeth

And then eventually we had intercourse. And, I don't know, this was like, I feel like adolescence was like my, my heyday for this is like, late adolescence. So, you know, like, I probably 18, but it was like that was the heyday for for sexual intercourse for me, for, like, to have sex. Because I was like, I was young.

00:57:16:28 - 00:57:35:04

Elizabeth

My gender feelings really. Like, I think I started themselves a lot more over time. Like in my, in my 20s is when it started to feel more urgent. Like, I think that there were sort of feelings there, but they were very like it was kind of, I don't know, it was like at a very slow boil.

00:57:35:04 - 00:58:01:20

Elizabeth

It was a very slow, slow process. So for that to come front and center for me, so it felt like comfortable in my body and, you know, like, I don't know that was young. I had a partner who really enjoyed it. And then, yeah. Like, later on, I, like I said, I, I stop having, like, to have sex in probably in my late 20s.

00:58:01:22 - 00:58:19:14

Elizabeth

I was just like my partner at the time, and I it was something that, like, like she didn't feel she didn't love it. You know, for, for various reasons. And at a certain point, I was just kind of like, we were sure if talking through her was kind of difficult for us. And I was just kind of like, what if we just don't do it?

00:58:19:14 - 00:58:39:14

Elizabeth

Like, I don't feel like I need it? So if, like, you're trying to do it for me, like, I think that's not really necessary, which was and that was like, that was definitely like a gender thing. You know, it was a thing that I don't know, I don't know, it felt it felt comfortable in a way that sort of surprised me.

00:58:39:16 - 00:58:46:06

Luna

Did you stop all erotic sexual contact or was it just, like, what? What was kind of just envy?

00:58:46:07 - 00:59:14:16

Elizabeth

Yeah. I mean, okay. Great question. So like, we consciously cut out, we got it. Which changed I don't know. It was it was definitely a positive step like that. That was a relationship that was always like. But we didn't work together actually very well for, you know, for, a whole host of reasons. But I think that was a really positive step for us because we were like, we were following a script that we both felt like we had to follow.

00:59:14:16 - 00:59:31:15

Elizabeth

Yes. And this like cutting out this thing that didn't really work for her and actually wasn't doing that much for me either, like took a lot of pressure off and allowed us to focus on things that we like more. So it was yeah, great news.

00:59:31:17 - 00:59:33:15

Luna

Recommend it. Yeah.

00:59:33:17 - 00:59:52:27

Elizabeth

And then so it was a few years after that probably that I started transitioning. So my partner, when I started to transition, it was very hard for her. When I started to transition like she was, it was she took a long time to like, accept it. And, you know, it was painful for her, which I under I fully understand.

00:59:52:27 - 01:00:09:23

Elizabeth

Right. Like, I get it like it's it's tough when you're with somebody and you have a certain image of them that compliments like what it is that you want in the way you think of yourself. And then they change in a very dramatic way. Right? Like, I totally get that. It's hard. She really came through for me in a lot of ways.

01:00:09:23 - 01:00:40:02

Elizabeth

Like she was very supportive of she, like, you know, would like, help me buy clothes, like, teach me about about cosmetics, like, you know, she was really supportive, but for whatever reason, like, we did not work sexually at all after I transitioned. It was like it was a kind of a bad death situation. And. Yeah, when we broke up, which took it took a few years after that, after after I transitioned.

01:00:40:02 - 01:01:01:20

Elizabeth

I mean, not after the bad death. When we broke up, I was like, in some ways, the first time I felt like I was having sex as a woman, and, it was great, but it was also like it was also not. Don't know, it was great there. Not that there weren't ups and downs, but like, it was, it's hard.

01:01:01:25 - 01:01:24:20

Elizabeth

It's hard to describe the ways it's different. Like. And I don't like, I haven't, this. Yeah. This is the kind of space where you share these things, like, I, I'm not, I'm not interested in. And having bottom surgery. So I still have, you know, I have a penis. And like, so mechanically, sex doesn't change that much.

01:01:24:20 - 01:01:45:02

Elizabeth

But it also does like your, I don't know, like hormones change the way things work a fair amount in a way that is like I think is great, right? Like it's a lot more sort of I feel like I have it a lot of the time, which is awesome. And I had sex that was like stressful for various reasons.

01:01:45:02 - 01:02:06:07

Elizabeth

Like, I, gosh, I broke this. Like, I really jerked around this poor person, like, without meaning to, but I just, like, I did my thing where I was like, you know, like, we went on three dates and, like, I think they were kind of like, I'm so excited for this to turn into a really serious relationship. And I was like, no, bye.

01:02:06:07 - 01:02:33:25

Elizabeth

And now I have to cut off all contact with you because I'm terrified. And it was, you know, I was probably not really ready to be date and it was probably a little too soon, but, it was you know, it was like a really tender, loving sexual experience. And, I don't know, it was just like, I think that was my first time with that was my first time with somebody who is like, I might say, culturally a lesbian.

01:02:33:25 - 01:02:52:01

Elizabeth

That makes sense. Like had had I had sex with a lot of other lesbians and I don't know, it helped me like break patterns, like it helped me sort of like, understand like, okay. Like there are other there are other scripts like, and there's so many scripts that you can pull from that, like it's kind of like there isn't a script.

01:02:52:07 - 01:03:16:14

Elizabeth

Yeah. I think that's something I think about a lot, like on this side of my experience, how much hetero sex can get, like, can fall into these, the scripts. Yeah. I had this, like, this moment watching. I lived with my sister during the pandemic. She just, like, always like to have old TV shows playing. And she was watching, like, rewatching, like the first season of Gray's Anatomy.

01:03:16:16 - 01:03:39:20

Elizabeth

And there's this, like, very simple by the numbers impotence plot where, like, one of the doctors can't get it up with his new partner. And I was genuinely just like, remember watching this and being like this? It's so weird. Like they're acting like they can't have sex because it's like, this isn't getting hired. Like there's so many things that they can do, including like, to him.

01:03:39:20 - 01:03:58:20

Elizabeth

Like he could be having a great time, but yeah, like they're locked into this very specific script. Yeah. That that kind of brings you up to the present. And then like, I had another partner, who is like, I don't know, is I feel like we'll always be kind of important to me because, she's the only, like, trans trans woman.

01:03:58:21 - 01:04:20:25

Elizabeth

No, she's the only other trans woman. I've had an encounter with. And, that was that was special. That was really special. And I feel like, I don't know, taught me to. It helped me value my body a lot, to, you know, be in, like, really positive relationship to her body. And then I and then I met my wife, and that's been great.

01:04:20:27 - 01:04:42:06

Elizabeth

The interesting thing about our relationship is that, sexually speaking, is that we were really nervous when we first met, and we were talking when we met online, and it was during the pandemic. So like we didn't meet for a while in person, whereas for a long time we were just talking or like we would be on video calls and, we were nervous.

01:04:42:06 - 01:05:00:03

Elizabeth

We really liked each other. But she's actually so she's actually ace or she considers herself ace, and then you know, it's like obviously like ace is like a huge category with like a lot of room for what that means. And so I was kind of like, well, what, you know, what does that mean for you? Like, what would that mean for us?

01:05:00:03 - 01:05:32:25

Elizabeth

And she was kind of like, I don't really know. Like we're going to have to kind of figure it out between the two of us. And I think we both had a lot of, you know, like, we were both, like, anxious that it just wouldn't work out right like that. We, either that like that, there would be like, something that I was looking for that she wouldn't be able or be willing to provide or that, you know, like, we wouldn't, like, sync up, but we we just think really nicely.

01:05:32:26 - 01:05:57:01

Elizabeth

And we do have, like like we have. Yeah. I mean, we have really great sex. I'm sort of like. Like, I've always been really interested in kink, and King's been a big part of my fantasy lives. But this is the first time that I'm kind of loving it. And I think that that, is something that is, like, works really well for her as an ace person.

01:05:57:01 - 01:06:18:29

Elizabeth

Right? It's sort of this, like, very specific language where she's like, oh, like, here's things that you like. Then I'm like, very excited to do for you. And like, they're very clear. Like, I can kind of learn the rules and like, and do them. So yeah, that's been great. And that's, that's a complete I, that's that's a complete, though brief sexual history, I suppose.

01:06:19:01 - 01:06:42:00

Luna

I love that that is such a beautiful timeline overview. Thank you. And also thank you for your wonderful language. Bed death is new to me. Cultural lesbian. The concept is not new, but like love these phrases. I hear the writer in your speech and I love that you know and and even just bringing up those scripts. It's so funny because as I hear you talk, I'm like, I always continue to learn things about myself.

01:06:42:00 - 01:07:09:23

Luna

And I'm like, oh my God. It's like when I was younger, I didn't understand the like, expectations, and I felt like I was always doing things wrong. And it literally wasn't until like last year, like maybe you're 1 to 2 years ago that I was like all these scripts people talking about, that's that thing, you know? And I didn't even realize until hearing you talk that I'm like, oh, that's why I was so confused.

01:07:09:23 - 01:07:28:06

Luna

In my early 20s, I felt like everyone wanted me to do or be something different. And I also had like very strongly eaten the message of like, make your own life. You are a special, do whatever you want in the world is your oyster, you know? And so I was like, I'm being me. My mom said, I'm a little different.

01:07:28:06 - 01:07:44:24

Luna

And, you know, and it's so funny because I just don't think I consciously had connected the dots between those scripts and my early, early experiences for so long. So I love hearing about how came for you. So what is sexy to you?

01:07:44:26 - 01:08:12:26

Elizabeth

I mean, like, oh God, okay. Like women are sexy. So I had pre transition, I had this queer Eye guy. I'm sure everybody has some variation and I yeah, of course it'll be different for everybody. But like I don't know some some variation of like how things were. It was just a little weird before he transitioned. But like I had this ongoing experience with people like thinking I was gay and like and not in a negative way because I was like, hanging out.

01:08:12:28 - 01:08:31:29

Elizabeth

This is like the 90s, right? So I was hanging out with like the the Gay Straight Alliance kids. And, I just remember I remember this very sweet boy at a dance who was like, like wanted to like, you know, it was clearly kind of like pining for me. And I was like, I'm like, I have no interest in boys at all.

01:08:31:29 - 01:09:03:26

Elizabeth

I'm so sorry. But I also like at the same time, I felt this very weird thing where, like, I was having this experience of people thinking I was gay, which for like, you know, I don't know, fortunately, like, I had been like, I guess I can thank my parents for this. And also just like my the that the people around me, like, I didn't feel any sense of like shame about that or like self-consciousness even, because, you know, I didn't I didn't have any sense that it was bad to be a gay man at all.

01:09:03:28 - 01:09:39:05

Elizabeth

But I was always just kind of like, no, no, it's like it's quite the opposite, really. Like, I, I just like, really, I, I felt the sense of like, like I felt, I felt an affinity with lesbianism. Right. Which is, like, very weird for a straight man. Like, there's, there's a, there's like a joke that I feel like I heard a few times growing up where straight cis men would say, like, I'm like, I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, which, like I to this day, don't know why that's funny, right?

01:09:39:05 - 01:10:13:23

Elizabeth

Because I and I think it's because I was just kind of like, isn't that just I was just describing, like, it's just that that string of words like really baffles me. Like to this day, like I have trouble. I'm just like, what a strange string of words. I just have trouble even putting into words. Why? But it was like, I, I guess I was right, like, and I don't think of myself that now, but at the time, like, I think it did make me scratch my head in this way where I was like, I'm kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:13:25 - 01:10:33:07

Elizabeth

But I had this. I had this like the sort of like pride or like, like, I mean, I think that's a good way to put it. I have, like, a pride in the fact that I was attracted to women. I was like, women are so wonderful at so great that I'm attracted to them. Like, like it really was kind of like straight pride.

01:10:33:16 - 01:10:48:14

Elizabeth

It's the allies experiencing it. Not that I would ever put it in those terms or like, I don't think I don't think I thought of it until I sort of fully understood what was going on. And then the fact that I was a woman sort of clicked for me when it also clicked for me that I was a lesbian.

01:10:48:15 - 01:11:14:17

Elizabeth

I needed to understand that I was both of those things before I could, like, move forward with my transition fully. A very important figure, a very important fictional character in my transition was Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, who was Willow's girlfriend. And like, I just, like, completely fixated on her as a 16 year old boy. I was just like, this character is like the best fictional character.

01:11:14:17 - 01:11:42:02

Elizabeth

Like, I want to do nothing but think about her. Like I have pictures of her around, you know, just like typical, like, like mega fan stuff, but, like, it was. I just like the first moment where I sort of knew that there was something that there's something going on with my gender. I was like, you know, I was in my late 20s and I'm like walking down the street thinking about, like, I was just genuinely being like.

01:11:42:04 - 01:12:04:02

Elizabeth

The story of Willow and Tara's love really is the perfect expression of love. Like there's that. And then I was just like, I don't think most people do this. Like, I don't think most cis straight men are walking around thinking about a lesbian from a ten year old TV show. Is there maybe something's happening there? And, yeah.

01:12:04:04 - 01:12:25:15

Elizabeth

So I read a few years ago I read a book called Transgender History by Susan Stryker, who's a trans woman historian. It's a great book. It's it's very much about, like, 20th century trans activism. But she, like, says at the beginning she's like transgender history is a very vague title, but this is actually, like, pretty specific.

01:12:25:15 - 01:12:51:07

Elizabeth

Like, we're not. And that doesn't mean there's no other history. It's just what what this book is about. But she has a, she has some selections in that book from the diaries of a man, a trans man named Lou Sullivan, and he tells from his diaries that made a huge impact on me. Was that like, was specifically that he was a gay trans man, right.

01:12:51:07 - 01:13:13:03

Elizabeth

Like, and that was an important part of that journey for him and that, that just like really connected with and like for me in this specific way of that, I was like, oh, like that's like that's part of it. Like the fact that I'm a woman who loves women is an important part of my womanhood. And like, it's something that really like, it's a moment that really clicked for me.

01:13:13:07 - 01:13:25:01

Elizabeth

So like, girl, yeah, girls just drive me while they're so pretty. They're like, they're they're gorgeous. They're so sexy. Just. Yeah, that's my that's my number one thing. That's my number one answer.

01:13:25:03 - 01:13:36:20

Luna

Hard. Agree. Okay. Off the top of your head, tell us some physical sensations and or sexy scenarios you love.

01:13:36:22 - 01:14:08:05

Elizabeth

I love, I love edging, I love, and I don't even know how to talk about that. Like, I love the experience lasting a long time. I love, I really like, I love, I love all kinds of submission. Like, I really, I really it can make me feel so, so safe and relaxed. Like I think that those are the two key words, like, just really like every muscle in my body being relaxed.

01:14:08:07 - 01:14:42:25

Elizabeth

My, I've always, I've always had, like, fantasies of being hypnotized. And my, my wife has like, done that with me, and it's just like, is so like it's, you know, it's like it's like for me, it's this, like pathway to just like, this is very, very deep sense of relaxation, and safety, the sort of like physical relaxation and, the sense of being like, very safe and not having to do anything.

01:14:42:25 - 01:15:05:05

Elizabeth

And when I say safe, like, I think part of it is like the sense that there's nothing I can do wrong, you know, like there's no action I could take that would just be like, not what my partner was looking for or like, you know, like not something that sexy to them, like, like just being in that complete state of relaxation also makes anything physical, like, a lot more vivid.

01:15:05:07 - 01:15:16:01

Elizabeth

I just like love vibrators. This is like going back to scripts like. Like I just kind of like, I think that straight men should try vibrators their penises, like, yeah, I think you'd like it, boys.

01:15:16:02 - 01:15:21:22

Luna

Like, oftentimes they do. They're like, I can't, and I'm like, hang on, you know.

01:15:21:24 - 01:15:46:16

Elizabeth

Like, yeah, it's just they're great. Like, they're really nice. People should try them. I really, I really like anal penetration, and but it's like a sort of like an event for me. I'm like, okay, like, let's fucking do it. I'm in the mood. I'm like, feel fill in, feeling good, feeling relaxed, feeling ready for it. But like, it really works for me when it works.

01:15:46:18 - 01:16:24:27

Elizabeth

I mean, I think it's both like it's a great physically, if you're, you know, if you're like, relaxed and going into it and it's like with it's very I think it hits both like gender and submission buttons, you know, it's like very like like being penetrated is like there's something like whatever. Like this is all very psychosexual stuff like, yeah, you know, it's not that like being penetrated is innately a part of womanhood or something, but it is just there's something about that is like, okay, like I, I'm accessing something that is like, you know, something that when I was like as I was like, you know, developing sexually is something that I

01:16:24:27 - 01:16:44:22

Elizabeth

didn't think I could have, but that maybe I kind of really wanted. Yeah. So it's great. And, Yeah. And it's also like very like I think it hits the submission button too, right? Because you're just like, it's it's very overwhelming physical thing that puts your partner very much in control of what's happening. And it feels great. Yeah.

01:16:44:23 - 01:17:09:00

Elizabeth

This is my top, top physical sensations, and top scenarios. Like I think the one other thing I would say is, is like dirty talk. Okay. I just it's great. Like I mentioned before about, like, being called slurs. Like, I also just like just being called a stupid slut, like, like free it on, like, all day, every day in the bedroom.

01:17:09:02 - 01:17:35:20

Elizabeth

And like, I mean, we talked about this a little before, right? Like how there's sort of this sense of, like, safety and liberation because it's like you're you're being called the bad words and like, nothing bad is happening. So you're just kind of like, okay, like I'm this existing in this space and like some of the weapons that I'm like, afraid of are out, like not being used and not hurting me and it's great.

01:17:35:21 - 01:17:46:24

Luna

And love that. But speaking of hurting you, could you just talk about impact play a little bit like do you have toys infinity. And like are you into pain or kind of like what do you like to experience.

01:17:46:26 - 01:18:16:15

Elizabeth

We, we keep it like what we do is pretty light. Like it's mostly it's mostly spanking or like just with hands. Yeah. And yeah. Gosh. Like, it's part of submission. Sure, sure. Right. It's like, for me, I mean, that it's like it's it's a way of somebody exercising, demonstrating power over you, in a way that can be very, like, very sexy when you're already in this, like, safe, the safe area.

01:18:16:17 - 01:18:33:29

Elizabeth

I also just like, I don't know, I find it really intense, especially if other stuff is going on. Like if my clit is being stimulated and like, like my ass is me and spanked. It's just like, I don't know, it's just it's like a times two multiplier. Yes.

01:18:34:01 - 01:18:35:24

Luna

Same.

01:18:35:26 - 01:19:14:06

Elizabeth

Probably like the most, like the most intense thing that I think that my, like, my wife is like a little like we've done before and she's like a little her thing is always like she definitely enjoys it. And she's also always like, I'm afraid I'll hurt you. Which is one reason we've, you know, like, we've we we like, stick to hands, like it's it's not super intense, but, like, sometimes I've asked her to slap me in the face and, like, again, like, not for me, not for every day, but like, if I'm, like, fully relaxed, it feels like.

01:19:14:16 - 01:19:37:23

Elizabeth

Like just like the sensation. Yeah. Is like powerful and in the same way as in, like, slapped on the ass. But yeah, I mean, I guess it's the, it's that it's the same thing again, right? I've like it. I think it makes me feel very powerless. But then like in a way that it's like. And nothing bad is happening.

01:19:37:25 - 01:19:49:18

Elizabeth

Yeah. So everything's okay. Like even if you have no power, nothing bad happens. So, like, you can really just fully relax and everything will be okay.

01:19:49:20 - 01:20:13:01

Luna

I love that. I also feel like because I'm into face slapping, especially if I'm being edged and I'm like about to come and it's like, not yet. And then I'm like, whoa. And that's and I feel it's so hot. And I see from the right person obviously negotiated, obviously experienced places, etc., you know, and then I feel so powerful because I'm like, my orgasm is getting drawn out.

01:20:13:01 - 01:20:24:18

Luna

Like the whole experience feels bigger and I see that I can withstand, you know, something that is supposed to be the most demeaning, terrible thing. And, you know, and I'm like, joke's on you, sucker a lot.

01:20:24:23 - 01:20:29:21

Elizabeth

And you actually feel like, treasured and loved, like what's happening, right? It's like it's just like.

01:20:29:21 - 01:20:31:07

Luna

So, like, for me.

01:20:31:14 - 01:20:37:25

Elizabeth

Like, I know that there are people who for whom it's just, like, not a thing. But for me, it's just like. So I just feel so right. And so, oh my.

01:20:37:25 - 01:20:44:19

Luna

God, we're going to have to have you back to do a deep dive on like kink, maybe mixed with sci fi, not sure, but.

01:20:44:21 - 01:20:46:00

Elizabeth

Oh my god, sorry.

01:20:46:01 - 01:21:03:00

Luna

In the meantime, I'd love to hear what, if anything, is on your bucket list. It could be a sexy bucket list, but it doesn't have to to be. But your your life adventure bucket list going forward. Like what? How do you hope to woo your yourself as you progress in this existence.

01:21:03:02 - 01:21:23:07

Elizabeth

In terms of general generally being wooed like I'm thinking, you know, like so I'm 39, right? Which is it's one year before 40. So it is like sort of, it's kind of a transitional moment, right? Like I'm getting older, like I feel a lot more settled than I did, like five years ago. Or it's like I'm, you know, I'm with a partner.

01:21:23:07 - 01:21:47:22

Elizabeth

I plan to stay with for a very, very long time. And, like, the shape of my life is becoming more and more clear. Or, you know, at least for like the next ten, 20 years. So I think a lot of what I'm focusing on right now is I want to build something that will be a sustaining for that time.

01:21:47:24 - 01:22:11:00

Elizabeth

And it's interesting because like my, my intimate relationship is actually not the main focus about. Right. Because the that feels like the thing that's it's gotten really solid. And now I can build on it like, artistically and socially, like I'm still, you know, I've been in Montreal a few years now, but I still, you know, like, have a lot of free to go, like, making friends and meeting people.

01:22:11:00 - 01:22:32:05

Elizabeth

So that's one thing that's really important to me, like, spiritually as well, you know, that feels like something that I'm willing I kind of have an energy to think about more. Honestly, like, maybe the biggest thing is just professionally because I'm, you know, I, I worked in technology. It's a tough time to be working in technology in late 2024.

01:22:32:05 - 01:22:55:15

Elizabeth

Like, it's, you know, there's layoffs. I'm I'm currently unemployed. Not because I was laid off, but because my last job was absolutely intolerable, and it was me miserable. And my. Thank you. Yeah. I want I'm very lucky that my partner, you know, my wife was like, just leave. Like, I can support us for a while while you look for a job.

01:22:55:17 - 01:23:24:17

Elizabeth

So, like, gosh. And, like, you know, the whole world's gonna have a lot of challenges coming up. So, I want to build something kind of stable. I want to feel stable so that to meet those challenges, you know, like, as they as they impact me and as, like, they'll, they'll require coordinated action from everybody every time in terms of, like, sex and romance.

01:23:24:19 - 01:23:41:27

Elizabeth

I think the one thing I'm interested in is I think that we're monogamous, like, we don't. I feel like both of us are kind of like, haven't fully closed the door. On whether we'll revisit that someday, which would be really interesting. It's not necessarily something that I'm like, I feel very like the things are great, right?

01:23:41:27 - 01:24:03:14

Elizabeth

So it's not like something needs to change. But that would be a fun adventure to have at some point. And, I just have I have a lot fewer items here because I feel like I've gotten to do a lot of them in the last few years, which is really great. Oh, it's something we haven't done that I'm excited to try as, like, is, her fucking me with the strap on, like, oh, I haven't done it.

01:24:03:16 - 01:24:04:14

Elizabeth

It would be really great.

01:24:04:18 - 01:24:10:22

Luna

Oh, yes. Oh, I want to hear about it when you do it. Because, like, I've just gotten the straps. Yeah.

01:24:10:25 - 01:24:42:28

Elizabeth

Oh there. Yeah I'm excited for it. The, the one thing actually is like we talked at the very beginning about like, my wife can find it hard to receive affection and that holds true in bed. And that is actually really tough for me. Like, you know, we have found something that works really well for us, but like, it is like like we like it's it's like whenever it's like our main joke about our sex lives is just that, like, like, yeah, I know you want to eat me out, but like, you're going, not like only that's the.

01:24:42:28 - 01:25:06:25

Elizabeth

So it's like silicates. Yeah. I, you know, I was saying I was saying before like, girls are girls are very sexy and pretty, like, I, I, I love, I love, love doing things to girls that makes them feel good. So, like that is, I think that's like, that's a, that's an area of evolution. Right. Like, and I think that, like, her, her preferences are like pretty set.

01:25:06:25 - 01:25:22:20

Elizabeth

Like we're also like testing where those limits are. And, I'm thinking about ways to still feel like really great and present. Like, while that's true, that's those are some, some of my ambitions, some of some of the dreams and hopes of what's next.

01:25:22:22 - 01:25:44:25

Luna

And I look forward to seeing what and how it unfolds. It all unfolds. Okay. So to wrap up, how do you think that we can co-create a more connected, loving, womb filled world? And part two of that question is, how do you like to spread ripples of love?

01:25:44:27 - 01:26:09:03

Elizabeth

So, okay, this is not this is like a proposed solution and it's really obvious, but something that I think about a lot as a trans woman, meaning like having lived a good part of my life as a man, it's just like, it's just so rough for men right now. Like, which feels weird to say, because it's like, you know, there's, you know, toxic masculinity and patriarchy are out of control.

01:26:09:03 - 01:26:16:15

Elizabeth

But like, I think that so many of those things do like, come back to this deep sense of suffering.

01:26:16:15 - 01:26:18:00

Luna

Yeah, I agree.

01:26:18:02 - 01:26:44:26

Elizabeth

And unhappiness. Right. And like there's not like there's, there's, there's no prescription for that. So I have, there's this person that I like, who I knew in college, who I think of as my shadow self in this specific way. And I say this what I say flippantly is that, like you either like a certain type of guy, either transitions or becomes an incel, right?

01:26:44:26 - 01:27:09:20

Elizabeth

Like, I don't mean incel. Like if you're not having sex and you want to like, that's that's a tough situation. And like, there's there's nothing shameful about that, you know? And it's like, yeah, it's okay. But like, you know, you you sort of like descend into this sort of. So there's this specific guy who some of my friends actually like, he, he dated, you could say one of my friends like, really?

01:27:09:20 - 01:27:43:20

Elizabeth

They just hooked up once or twice. And, you know, he was really creepy about it. Like afterwards he was really hung up on her for a long time and, like, pushed her boundaries a lot. And I get updates on him because I know his I know his sister as well. And like, just hasn't gotten better over time. And I feel like at the time, like back in our, you know, when we were both 22, I sort of had this feeling of like, well, if we're both people who have this, like, there's something complicated about our relationship to women and femininity that we're both trying to figure out.

01:27:43:22 - 01:28:21:23

Elizabeth

And I feel like I figured it out and I feel like he really didn't, and kind of, like, went the wrong direction. So anyway, this is all just to say that, like, I don't have a solution, but I think that one of the challenges we have to face is like the men who are like, lonely and hurting and then that, like, expresses itself in these completely abhorrent displays of, you know, like worst case scenario, like violence or sexual violence or like just sort of misogyny and toxic masculinity.

01:28:21:25 - 01:28:54:04

Elizabeth

And so that's something that like, I don't have like a, yeah. I, you know, like, you can be good to the people in your life. And that's ultimately like all you can really do. And you have to do that while watching out for yourself and taking care of yourself. So which makes it tougher. And then in terms of, like with me spreading joy in the world, ripples of love, I think that you can do so much just by I think, like very small acts of kindness are, like go a very long way.

01:28:54:06 - 01:29:26:17

Elizabeth

The best thing I can possibly happen to you at a party where you don't know a lot of people, is that you meet a grad student, is if you meet a grad student, what you say is what he's studying, and then whatever they say you say, think of the first question that comes to mind, right. I talked to I talk to somebody once at a party for like an hour who was studying the attitude toward farmers, toward adopting organic, organic farming practices.

01:29:26:19 - 01:29:40:02

Luna

Like literally or on a farm right now, where I was like, duh, dad, we need to transition. Dad, dad, dad. And it took a minute, but lo and behold, it's. And we're we're in the process of certification now. And now we have little signs that are organic.

01:29:40:03 - 01:29:55:14

Elizabeth

That's that's incredible. Right. And it was like and I mean, the thing is like all of these things are incredible. Like, yeah, every topic if somebody's studying it like yeah, it's kind of interesting. Right? So yeah, I just like I was like, I forgot what the first question like you just asked the first question that comes to mind.

01:29:55:14 - 01:29:55:19

Elizabeth

Right.

01:29:55:19 - 01:30:02:22

Luna

So or the my default question was like, oh, I would like to know more about that. What are you learning right now? That's interesting to you?

01:30:02:24 - 01:30:11:25

Elizabeth

Absolutely right. Or like you can always go for the like the the deep cut if you get into trouble is like, wow, that sounds really challenging.

01:30:12:00 - 01:30:12:26

Luna

Yeah.

01:30:12:28 - 01:30:17:26

Elizabeth

Because like everybody has challenges in their in their studies or their work and they just talk about that.

01:30:17:27 - 01:30:19:24

Luna

So true, so true.

01:30:19:26 - 01:30:42:28

Elizabeth

So like anyway like my my point in bringing this up is just that, like just being curious and showing a genuine interest in be and sorry. We phrase that carefully because it's not about showing a genuine interest. It's being genuinely interested. Right. Which doesn't mean like like I don't remember everything I learned in that conversation, but it was still very interesting, a very interesting conversation.

01:30:42:28 - 01:31:07:05

Elizabeth

You know, like I, I did learn I did learn things. And what they were doing was really cool. So I think it like a day to day level, that's something that I feel like has taken me very far, is just, trying to be curious about the people around me and, what's going on with them and helping them going back to the very beginning of our conversation.

01:31:07:05 - 01:31:23:27

Elizabeth

Right. Like helping them feel like a little special and chosen. Right. Just be like my job at this. This my job today is like to learn about you. And then like that, that person is going to like that, and then they're going to like you. So it's actually very self-serving if you think about it.

01:31:24:01 - 01:31:42:19

Luna

And it's such a fun way to live like that. This podcast has helped me be braver, to share my truly genuine curiosity that overwhelms people. And so now, wherever I go, I'm learning cool stuff and I'm getting cool, nice connections with people who then become curious about me, you know? Or we go our separate ways and we've just had a nice exchange.

01:31:42:21 - 01:31:46:18

Luna

And then I feel more hopeful about this world and.

01:31:46:20 - 01:31:47:25

Elizabeth

Yeah, I'm agreed completely.

01:31:47:25 - 01:32:05:18

Luna

And so deeply grateful for all of your insights here and your shares and your thoughtfulness. And you're spreading ripples of love by sharing your story here. So thank you, Elizabeth, for sharing your wisdom on woo. Thank you for sharing your sex stories.

01:32:05:20 - 01:32:08:25

Elizabeth

My pleasure. It was really great to be here. I really enjoyed talking with you.