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48 queer bisexual Australian woman, she/her pronouns, polyamorous, bratty switch, married 10 years, dating 9 months, mother of 8, works with disadvantaged youth, former stripper/model, into: women, swinging, exhibitionism, submission, festivals.

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00:00:00:11 - 00:00:22:12

Luna

And our guest today is a 48 year old or 43. If you come across her profile on a dating site, queer, formerly monogamous but now polyamorous woman who has been married for ten years and has been dating her long distance girlfriend for about nine months. She's also the mother of eight. She has always identified as bi, but more recently wonders if she is actually a true lesbian who keeps marrying men.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:47:11

Luna

She presents annoyingly straight and is always practicing hitting on ladies. Relatable. And in the past has dabbled in the swinger lifestyle and even was part of a throuple before learning polyamory existed. She's into energetic connection, giving pleasure, and watching her partners receive pleasure and can also happily be an exhibitionist. She has recently discovered that she is a bratty switch who submits much better to women, much better to women.

00:00:47:14 - 00:01:03:03

Luna

A former stripper and model who now works with disadvantaged youth, she loves festival halls and living a slight double life of the good girl professional mum that contrasts with her fun side. With us today from Australia. Welcome mystery.

00:01:03:05 - 00:01:05:03

Miss Tori

Good morning. Hi.

00:01:05:05 - 00:01:20:00

Luna

Can you start out by telling our sweet listeners if you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame a meter scale with ten being the most full of shame and zero being like, I don't even have that. Where do you feel today, right now and when, if ever, does it fluctuate?

00:01:20:02 - 00:01:41:15

Miss Tori

I think in my head I'm about a two maybe one. I don't have much of a, I don't have much of a shame on me at all. I'm like, yes, it's fun. We're adults. We're all good here. Like I said, a little bit of a double life. So in reality, it's probably more of a 4 or 5, depending on the circle I'm with some parts of my life.

00:01:41:16 - 00:01:45:21

Miss Tori

No, absolutely everything about me and other people in my life. Not so much.

00:01:45:23 - 00:02:03:23

Luna

I love that, and now I'm going to reveal to our sweet listeners that we are here today, also with your daughter, former guest Bebe on the show. Hi, baby. So both of you together. How what are your Cima metas like? Here we have mother and daughter together. Does it affect your Shima at all? Like, what is that like for you right now?

00:02:04:00 - 00:02:05:10

Luna

How are you feeling?

00:02:05:12 - 00:02:07:06

Miss Tori

It's not affecting my schedule material.

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:13:11

Bebe

I mean, I'm usually at two, but, about that again, you know.

00:02:13:13 - 00:02:34:17

Luna

That's awesome. Was it always like that for you? Like mystery? Could you maybe speak a little bit about what it's like having eight children? Who you. At some point, I'm imagining maybe had to speak to about the birds and the bees or, like, tell us a little bit about what it's like to be a mom with an active sex life and kids.

00:02:34:19 - 00:02:56:23

Miss Tori

Let's say I started with four kids. And I acquired the other four along the way. As I like to say, it, I just found some I liked. That's great. I think that's, cool. But, yes, I think that for my kids, it was never really a conversation. I don't think there was ever sat anybody down, in saying that, maybe it was probably.

00:02:56:23 - 00:03:19:16

Miss Tori

She was the oldest. There was babies happening after her. I was the natural birth mom. They were natural birth books lying around. We looked at the pictures. We read through them as storybooks. It was very open. So birds and the bees? It was just always kind of there. And the questioning was, if you ask me a question, I will answer it to the best of my ability, whatever that looks like.

00:03:19:18 - 00:03:37:10

Luna

I love that. Bebe, question for you. Having your mom here, like we're here knowing that your mom or sorry mom is polyamorous. When did you discover that? How does that feel? Like, what is that like for you guys? What are those conversations like?

00:03:37:12 - 00:03:59:11

Bebe

So I found that out when I think it was mentioned before. Mom was in a throuple before she really knew more about polyamory. And it was funny because I didn't know, but all the pieces were there. And then one of my brothers made a comment on it, and I was like, oh my goodness, all the pieces are falling into play.

00:03:59:13 - 00:04:16:17

Bebe

And I had no problem with the fact that she was in a throuple. I was just a little hurt that I wasn't told, by them. No, but I had no issue with them. And I was like, yeah, that's cool. Amazing. Like, good for you. Yeah, yeah. So that was kind of when I first learned about it.

00:04:16:17 - 00:04:33:00

Bebe

And I think maybe because like, mom didn't have all that kind of, you know, ideas about polyamory. Of course, she didn't have the words to talk about it because she didn't understand language and or about of itself. So I think that's probably what was it?

00:04:33:02 - 00:04:55:15

Luna

Right. Well, I hear from a lot of parents out there who are like, I don't know how to talk about this stuff with my kids. So Miss Tori, I would love to hear. What was it like for you? And like, when did you become aware that your children were aware that there was, like, more going on in your sex life than maybe you had volunteered to tell them?

00:04:55:17 - 00:05:17:17

Miss Tori

I think that I was always pretty open about the fact that I was bisexual. That wasn't really, a conversation that was was new. And I think that in between, marriage wasn't a marriage to I had a very, very single phase where, I it was the first time I was single as an adult. So I absolutely ran amok.

00:05:17:17 - 00:05:32:12

Miss Tori

I discovered that I had a whole lot of female power. I discovered that I could message somebody and they would visit me, or I would visit them. And it was all very, I used to jokingly say that I thought about sex like a man because there was no emotion involved.

00:05:32:13 - 00:05:33:03

Miss Tori

Okay? It was.

00:05:33:03 - 00:05:49:06

Miss Tori

Purely hookups. I didn't want their phone number. I didn't want to chat. I wanted to rock up, have sex and leave. That was where I was at at that point in my life. I was not interested in a relationship. Baby, being the oldest was probably the only one aware that I was in and out of the house for that reason.

00:05:49:08 - 00:06:09:13

Miss Tori

Or I'm sure that there was, a fair understanding that that's what was going on. Often things weren't really spoken about, but it wasn't hidden very well either. The throttle thing came about quite accidentally. Somebody came for the weekend and never left.

00:06:09:15 - 00:06:15:06

Luna

Okay, okay. Okay. So you and your primary partner with a third, or were you.

00:06:15:06 - 00:06:37:12

Miss Tori

What was the. Yeah, yeah, it was me and my primary partner. My primary partner and her. They were the people who were close. I was sort of the person who didn't know her so well. So she broke up with her boyfriend, came for the weekend threesome. She never left. So. And I didn't know polyamory existed. I didn't even really have the word of throttle.

00:06:37:14 - 00:06:40:23

Miss Tori

Right. It was kind of just like a swinging thing that never finished.

00:06:41:00 - 00:06:46:07

Luna

Interesting. So it's like a different. Like, I've heard of U-Haul lesbians, but it's like a U-Haul.

00:06:46:07 - 00:06:49:22

Miss Tori

Unicorn, a U-Haul travel. Yeah.

00:06:50:00 - 00:06:59:05

Luna

Wow. Okay, maybe from your perspective, what? Like what do you remember? All the pieces were there, but what was it like as that was kind of unfolding for you?

00:06:59:07 - 00:07:18:08

Bebe

Well, I wasn't living at the house at the time. Okay. So I had moved out and I was living with my partner. But I just remember, like, hearing about this person a lot, and I was like, wait, she's there. Okay, cool. And then, yeah, I think, you know, I was picking up my little brothers from school one day.

00:07:18:10 - 00:07:27:09

Bebe

They just started talking about it and they're like, oh, yeah. And like, you know, she sleeps in the bed. And I was like, I see what's happening here. And and also.

00:07:27:10 - 00:07:28:20

Miss Tori

There's like it all.

00:07:28:21 - 00:07:46:06

Bebe

All the pieces just like do to do all together. And it was like, oh yeah, well, she can always sleep in the lounge room because, you know, the boys are getting up and ready for school. So, and they have some wonderful stories about this kind of reasoning why she sleeps in their room. So, like, I think some of them knew and some of them didn't like the really young ones.

00:07:46:06 - 00:08:00:21

Bebe

They just were like, yeah, of course she sleeps in there because it's loud in the morning. Yeah. So that was really funny that like, you know, there was such a weird range of knowledge on the situation and kind of filling in the blanks, which I thought was cool.

00:08:00:23 - 00:08:22:14

Luna

I love hearing that because I also just, you know, I've done a fair amount of reading and listening to polyamorous podcasts and people who are kind of in, in that sphere, contrasted with people who are not at all but have a lot of judgments about like, oh, how it's going to negatively affect kids. And I'm like, it's going to negatively affect kids to see multiple adults working together in a space of love.

00:08:22:14 - 00:08:39:13

Luna

Like what? You know, because it's not like an exhibitionism thing that's affecting children, right? So mystery, what did it feel like to to feel like found out or like at what point where you're like, I guess I do need to share with children like what? What do you remember about that?

00:08:39:15 - 00:09:10:05

Miss Tori

I don't believe I ever really sat anybody down and said, right, this is the situation. I think that it was just nothing was ever hidden. I have brought up my entire crew to be very accepting of the world. I do remember one of the other ones and one of the older ones saying something and hadn't clicked like, didn't occur to him that it was weird that there was an extra person in the house and I was sleeping in the bed, like it didn't even wasn't even a thing.

00:09:10:06 - 00:09:27:16

Miss Tori

And we were quite open, like in and around the house, like we would the same as any other couple. We would kiss, we would hold hands. We would sit on the couch, cuddled up like there was nothing hidden. But there also wasn't really ever. Oh, so this is this person and they live with mommy and daddy now, blah blah blah blah blah.

00:09:27:18 - 00:09:29:08

Miss Tori

It never happened. It just the.

00:09:29:08 - 00:09:33:20

Miss Tori

Person just turned up and they were in their life and it was such a big family. What's one.

00:09:33:20 - 00:09:35:06

Miss Tori

More person? Yeah.

00:09:35:08 - 00:10:00:02

Miss Tori

Now we just have an extra person in the house and they were always treated like family. And there was never a oh, who's this person? I'm not listening to this person. Nothing. This person just came in and it was like having another adult in the house. And maybe because baby had moved out as the older sister and this person was a little younger, so maybe they kind of stepped into that big sister role a little bit more than anything else.

00:10:00:07 - 00:10:09:16

Miss Tori

And so it just it just worked. But they're still really close to like one of one of the boys, because they were really close at the time and they're still really close. So yeah.

00:10:09:18 - 00:10:32:23

Luna

Okay. I love that. I, I personally have a lot of like, fantasies, not necessarily sexual fantasies. Right. But like I love going over to my friends houses again, not people I'm necessarily sexual with, but being integrated into those family structures in kind of a larger way that I think used to be more normal for human beings to not just have their nuclear family, but nuclear family and community around it.

00:10:32:23 - 00:10:44:18

Luna

And so, I mean, yeah, I can't help but wonder, like, how many interesting, sexy configurations were there or are there in the spaces where we're not just, like, stuck in our own houses?

00:10:44:20 - 00:11:01:23

Bebe

It's funny, because that was actually our whole life growing up was if there was something a different person in the house, that was never an issue. It was just a part of life. You know, we had some of mom's friends and the kids live with us. At one point, all of my friends, I was like, I had like a band.

00:11:02:05 - 00:11:11:04

Bebe

They were always welcome, you know, like, everyone that came to our house was always welcome in our house. And it wasn't unusual to have extra people.

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:15:06

Luna

That was it's just like, super duper loving, I love that.

00:11:15:07 - 00:11:33:15

Miss Tori

I was, I just I think also on that, I guess, I don't know, I just feel like people don't give kids credit for how awesome excepting humans they are. Yeah, kids are accepting kids are cool. Like, kids don't question the world. Kids just know what good feeling they know what good connection is. They know what love is.

00:11:33:15 - 00:11:48:04

Miss Tori

They know what it feels like to be in a peaceful household. Yeah. So as long as the household remains loving and peaceful and nothing routine wise really changes. Like for them, it's just. Oh, yeah, like I said, this is just an extra person. It could have been a friend who moved in because I needed somewhere to stay for a bit.

00:11:48:06 - 00:11:56:19

Miss Tori

It could have been if one of the kids friends needing a place to. It doesn't really matter. It's just we're here. Once you here, we all run into the same family.

00:11:56:21 - 00:12:14:22

Luna

Yeah, I love that so much. And I think that's also why I really I really love kids. I really resonate with kids. I don't I'm not really on the path to have my own ones, but I've sort of. Lately I've been wondering if I missed my calling as like a preschool person preschool, too. That's called a preschool wrangler.

00:12:15:00 - 00:12:31:15

Luna

You know, I'm like, maybe it's not too late to go back. I don't know if I've been too sexy, but, you know, because I, I think it's so sweet to have, you know, small humans who are not yet affected by the judgments of society or all of the shoulds or all of kind of like the crinkly. I think of them as like anti love beliefs.

00:12:31:17 - 00:12:53:06

Luna

And, I feel like when they have that, that natural self-expression, creativity and play which is supported by loving human beings in a household that's just, that's just the best and that's like the foundation for a strong relational connection. Like kind of like you said, I would love to hear from each of you what you have learned from the other about sex, and you can figure out who wants to go first and you can ping pong off of each other.

00:12:53:06 - 00:13:00:12

Luna

But I just would love to hear what each of you has learned from the other about sex and through the course of your lives, years together.

00:13:00:14 - 00:13:04:11

Miss Tori

Do you want to go first?

00:13:04:13 - 00:13:25:05

Miss Tori

I think one thing that I really value about baby is her, acceptance and her body acceptance. And I hope, obviously, when you're raising a daughter for me, self esteem is so crucial. And.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:50:12

Miss Tori

You know, raising a daughter who was on stage all the time and loved to sing and dance and all of this sort of thing, for for me, but perhaps didn't have the stereotypical body type that people would think went along with that. For me, watching that person still had this amazing stage presence that you just cannot take your eyes off her when she is performing.

00:13:50:13 - 00:14:12:09

Miss Tori

Just show the confidence, which I, I feel now that I know a little bit more about where she's at, has pulled through into her sexual life. And I, I guess I hope I was a little bit instrumental in that. But I, I love seeing that braveness that, you know, that and that willingness to explore, and perhaps that low shame a meta.

00:14:12:11 - 00:14:17:01

Miss Tori

I again, I hope maybe I was a little bit instrumental in that being a thing.

00:14:17:03 - 00:14:19:01

Luna

I'm getting a nod. Okay.

00:14:19:03 - 00:14:45:00

Bebe

Yeah. Well, I feel like that's a good time, because that's, that is what I got from my mom a lot, which is just, you know, this openness and, you know, this space of making things normal and, like, no longer taboo. Just in the sexual space. In fact, the other day, we were talking about the intricacies of drumming on the phone, because we were just discussing it.

00:14:45:02 - 00:14:46:15

Luna

You preempted my next question.

00:14:46:15 - 00:14:48:22

Miss Tori

Wow. Oh, wait.

00:14:49:00 - 00:15:14:06

Bebe

Yeah, because we just have such an open way of discussing and seeing my mom. You know, also, I've seen my mom, you know, go through that single life as an adult and also then in, polyamorous relationships. And I've seen her be really open and learn all these new experiences. And I think that helped my own, kind of ability to access those similar spaces.

00:15:14:08 - 00:15:23:23

Bebe

And having someone that I always know I can turn to and ask questions to about that now is really great. And I always feel like I have that person in my mom.

00:15:24:01 - 00:15:28:05

Luna

That's amazing how I'm getting some sweet smiles. You lovers can't see.

00:15:28:06 - 00:15:28:23

Bebe

What it's like.

00:15:29:00 - 00:15:40:10

Luna

It's a new to can't see each other here as I'm recording this. So I have like a very special perspective as I often do. I would love to hear a little bit about. I mean, you kind of alluded to it, but like.

00:15:40:12 - 00:15:41:18

Miss Tori

How.

00:15:41:20 - 00:16:03:10

Luna

How do you talk about sex together? How often do you talk about sex? How does it come up, and how did you develop that sort of dialog? You know, it sounds like it wasn't necessarily always that way, but it sounds like as adults, you really are. In addition to being mother daughter supporters, supporters of one another, you also have this like sweet friendship and connection and the fact that you can be that open.

00:16:03:10 - 00:16:06:08

Luna

Like, I would love to just hear some details.

00:16:06:10 - 00:16:09:00

Bebe

Would you?

00:16:09:02 - 00:16:09:15

Miss Tori

Yeah.

00:16:09:17 - 00:16:11:22

Miss Tori

Oh my goodness. Yes. Oh well that's.

00:16:11:22 - 00:16:14:17

Bebe

Horrible. You can tell that story too.

00:16:14:21 - 00:16:36:13

Miss Tori

Just just before we get to the Never Have I ever stories which are hilarious, when we were having this conversation about the intricacies of doping and other things, my girlfriend was lying next to me in the bed and it comes from a very, very different upbringing. Does would never, ever have that kind of conversation with anyone in her family.

00:16:36:13 - 00:16:55:22

Miss Tori

She's, the, the, the cultural reasons as well as personal reasons. And so just her look to start with was kind of this, like you're talking about that with your daughter. And then it was like, that's so cool that you guys can have that kind of openness in your conversations. So yeah, it was it was like, it's kind of like, hang on.

00:16:55:22 - 00:16:59:22

Miss Tori

A minute, that's what you're talking about. And then it kind of continued from there.

00:17:00:00 - 00:17:02:06

Miss Tori

It was it was socially it was it was also. Yeah.

00:17:02:11 - 00:17:03:21

Miss Tori

Wow.

00:17:03:23 - 00:17:05:11

Luna

And then baby, what were you saying.

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:08:06

Miss Tori

No. What. Yeah.

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:29:01

Bebe

So there's a drinking game called never have I ever. Which basically you say never have I ever had sex. And if people have done it, they take a drink. So we would play that game, the parties we would host at our house because, you know, I had a lot of friends, and they needed a place to drink.

00:17:29:05 - 00:17:50:07

Bebe

And so we just had a safe space at my mom's house where we could do that. But because mom was there, you know, she'd come and join him. So it meant that, you know, and at that point, I was quite inexperienced in the sexual scope. So I was like, never have I ever kissed a person. And I wouldn't have to drink, and everyone else would.

00:17:50:09 - 00:17:58:17

Bebe

And then mom was like, never have I ever had a threesome. And then she'd drink. And everyone in the circle is like, what.

00:17:58:19 - 00:18:02:19

Miss Tori

Was really funny?

00:18:02:21 - 00:18:04:10

Miss Tori

And like, we have to do this.

00:18:04:12 - 00:18:26:06

Miss Tori

Oh, there's say there's a bit of background on the this because baby was the baby of her bunch, so she was the youngest in her friendship cohort. A lot of them were quite a few years older than her. And I still remember her coming home at, I don't know, maybe 15 and saying, oh my God, mom, do you know the conversation that we had at the party, somebody said, who would do it?

00:18:26:11 - 00:18:35:01

Miss Tori

Who would do baby's mom? And then everybody in the room, males and females were all like, we would.

00:18:35:03 - 00:18:35:11

Miss Tori

So that.

00:18:35:11 - 00:18:37:18

Miss Tori

Was a bit traumatic for the for girl, I think, because.

00:18:37:18 - 00:18:40:22

Miss Tori

At the time she, I lost her, witnessed she was.

00:18:40:22 - 00:18:47:19

Miss Tori

Traumatized because she so desperately wanted a boyfriend or someone to that. And then like, well, do your mom.

00:18:47:21 - 00:18:49:19

Miss Tori

Totally get it? Yeah yeah.

00:18:49:21 - 00:19:10:05

Bebe

Yeah. Because mom was like the the mILF of my group and I like, you know, I'm sure other people had attractive moms, but mom was her first. So any time, anything came up, like, they were so excited to talk about sex with my mom. American. Because obviously, I think that's, like, quite an unusual relationship to have with your mom.

00:19:10:07 - 00:19:18:00

Bebe

I think so. I don't think everyone got to do that. Whereas they knew that was like a trusted adult. That's that talk about it.

00:19:18:00 - 00:19:37:07

Luna

Exactly. And I think that that is something that, I mean, I love my parents to death, but I never felt like I could be like, but mom, I'm horny. How do I have sex? I understand that I'm supposed to say no if I don't want to. I'm having the opposite problem, you know? And I just didn't have any adults in my life who modeled that.

00:19:37:08 - 00:19:41:02

Luna

I didn't know it existed. And so, like, having the first mom.

00:19:41:07 - 00:19:43:20

Miss Tori

I mean, that's pretty.

00:19:43:22 - 00:19:51:07

Luna

I can imagine that would be hard as a daughter. And, I mean, what was that like as a mom for you? And did you know, were you aware of that?

00:19:51:07 - 00:20:11:14

Miss Tori

Yeah, I was I was gradually getting pretty aware. It was kind of funny. We would go out in public and people would see me and they were like, oh, your baby's friend. And I'm like, I'm a mom. Because obviously I was. I was 20 when I first became a mom, and then my husband is five years younger than me.

00:20:11:16 - 00:20:34:21

Miss Tori

And so that's step dad is then five years younger, and then you've got like, this, of course, babies friends were 3 to 5 years older than her a lot of the time. So the age gap between especially them and him was really close. And so the party, some of them got quite a bit. There was a lot of flirting going on between some of her friends and, my husband, which was fine.

00:20:34:21 - 00:20:56:06

Miss Tori

Okay. Have fun. Yeah. Oh, good. Here. But it was. We were the parents who they were like the uni students would be like a mom and dad going to be at the party. Oh, my gosh. Babies like, yeah yeah, yeah yeah. They'll be there. They're like oh goody. So we became and and because of that, they became this sort of weird dynamic of we were the cool parents.

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:10:23

Miss Tori

And we didn't try to be cool parents. It just happened because we had the space. We were happy to have the parties there. We we would join in because why not? The age gap between us and some of these friends wasn't actually that big.

00:21:11:00 - 00:21:33:07

Luna

Yeah. And I also just think it's wonderful. I mean I'm, I'm now at an adult age where I enjoy hanging out with my parents and their friends, just like as adults. And I wasn't like like as a kid I was like I they're not going to let me read a book at the table. You know, now I understand a little bit more about, like, being present and practicing my social skills, but I think it's really cool to have that sort of like, all are welcome.

00:21:33:07 - 00:21:45:08

Luna

Let's integrate communal vibe, you know, especially when you have, like, a little tribe of your own. Can I hear the details of, like, the intricacies of drumming that you were discussing the other day and or any other conversations you had that maybe.

00:21:45:08 - 00:21:46:05

Miss Tori

Are like.

00:21:46:06 - 00:21:49:23

Luna

For me and or our listeners.

00:21:50:01 - 00:21:50:07

Miss Tori

We.

00:21:50:07 - 00:22:19:10

Bebe

Were mostly talking about how, you know, if you're going into a situation where you're dealing with mostly talking about ensuring like that, everyone kind of knows what they're getting into. And like the ideas of like contracts and things like that in advance and, you know, establishing safe words and, making sure that everyone's comfortable just to begin with before moving into a scene where, of course, people can at any time explain that they're not comfortable with it.

00:22:19:12 - 00:22:34:03

Bebe

Or, you know, there are ways around that. But like, yeah, we were just kind of talking about it and we were talking about it from like a sex work point of view as well. Like, yeah, moving into a space like that, probably other stuff. But that's what stuck in my head.

00:22:34:05 - 00:22:39:19

Luna

And who initiated it? Yeah. Who initiated that conversation? How did it come about.

00:22:39:21 - 00:22:41:02

Miss Tori

Baby I think.

00:22:41:04 - 00:22:41:19

Miss Tori

Okay. Yeah.

00:22:41:21 - 00:23:07:15

Miss Tori

So I can't remember how we started. We were talking about we were talking about uni and work and, money and ways to make money and all of those kind of things. And, yeah, I have quite a lot of, sex worker friends. And so just talking about stuff and, I have, I have a few very good Dom friends, not that I have been intimate with, but just are good friends, and I have known them quite well.

00:23:07:17 - 00:23:20:16

Miss Tori

Dom's love, my energy, interests. Really. So Dom will find me and find me in a crowded room. Like they will come. They will find me. They. They see me. It's very interesting.

00:23:20:16 - 00:23:22:12

Miss Tori

Interesting thing.

00:23:22:14 - 00:23:44:00

Miss Tori

I only recently kind of realized this. Like I've had some over the years, some friends who are Dom's male who, that I've never wanted to get into that space because I've never felt that I could submit to them. I think it was a maybe a male trust issue. Maybe, not sure if I'm willing to let myself into that space issue.

00:23:44:00 - 00:24:04:23

Miss Tori

Not really sure. Also, when your partner is not someone like that, it's it's a difficult dynamic. And then I met a female who is quite dominant. I refer to her as, level 3006 and low level 36.

00:24:05:01 - 00:24:06:05

Miss Tori

Ooh.

00:24:06:07 - 00:24:23:17

Miss Tori

Who has a lot of knowledge? She just loves the topic of sex and intimacy and and studies it and just reads a lot about it and learns a lot about it. And so I always call her level 3000. I'm I'm catching up. I'm getting that, obviously I'm above level 30 now.

00:24:23:19 - 00:24:40:04

Luna

I feel you I know, I'm like, I'm not sure what level I'm at, but, I'm doing my best. I was speaking about this last night, actually. I was like, I am on in some ways a sex nerd. And a sexpert, but maybe I just have such high desire because I sort of want someone else to handle all the details.

00:24:40:04 - 00:24:59:22

Luna

And I'm just going to be the toy, right? Each of you have experience as submissives. Mystery. Do you have any experience as a top, or is it mostly just like, tell us a little bit about your body discoveries and kind of like what you were saying. Intro about like being a better submissive to a lady.

00:25:00:00 - 00:25:27:06

Miss Tori

So, I think I don't even know where it came from. It came out of nowhere, and I sort of actually, that's not true. When I backstory, I only went back to opening my relationship up again. Maybe a little over 12 months ago. Okay. After the throuple, we closed everything down. It stayed closed for reasons outside of sex.

00:25:27:08 - 00:25:48:03

Miss Tori

It took a long time to recover from that. And then, we had some other health issues and, you know, boring stuff like that. So we kept it closed for a while. I then met somebody very randomly at a party and we got chatting, and she was like, there's something different about you. And she'd met my self and my partner, both separately and kind of.

00:25:48:05 - 00:26:05:00

Miss Tori

There's something different about you two. And I went, dropped a few things about my present life, and then my brain just switched. It was just like, oh, my God, I miss being with women. I need to be with women again. She was awfully hot, by the way. Way too straight for me. But she's really, really hot. Gorgeous.

00:26:05:00 - 00:26:24:19

Miss Tori

Okay. And so my brain just kind of did this switch where I'm like, I need to be with women again. I need to stop not exploring the side of myself. So I had this cute conversation where it went, I want to open up the relationship. Oh, get a girlfriend. You get a girlfriend now, my partner thought that meant we get a girlfriend.

00:26:24:21 - 00:26:33:17

Miss Tori

And my partner got on to dating apps as a couple, thinking that's what I meant. And I got on dating apps as a single looking for women only.

00:26:33:19 - 00:26:34:12

Miss Tori

When did you guys.

00:26:34:12 - 00:26:35:14

Miss Tori

That was a conversation.

00:26:35:16 - 00:26:36:21

Miss Tori

Okay.

00:26:36:23 - 00:26:39:08

Miss Tori

That was a conversation. And I was like, wait.

00:26:39:10 - 00:26:39:23

Miss Tori

No, I.

00:26:40:00 - 00:26:48:05

Miss Tori

Seriously, I mean, I'll get a girlfriend and you get a girlfriend and they'll be different girlfriends.

00:26:48:07 - 00:26:49:08

Miss Tori

Anything? Yeah.

00:26:49:09 - 00:26:52:23

Luna

Was that conversation realizing you were on different pages?

00:26:53:00 - 00:27:18:13

Miss Tori

He was really. He was really shocked. It was quite, I think, a little bit confronting for him that I. It wasn't something that I wanted for us. It was something I wanted for me. This is probably shaped at last 12 months or so of marriage, which has been very challenging. And there's lots of other things that go along with that as well.

00:27:18:15 - 00:27:27:07

Miss Tori

Because it is much easier as a bisexual female to meet people than it is for a straight male who's married.

00:27:27:07 - 00:27:30:00

Luna

And I hear this from many people.

00:27:30:02 - 00:27:56:08

Miss Tori

Yeah. So anyway, that's another story. But so during this, one of the one of the girls that I met along the way was a little bit more dominant. And had I had previously been in a lot of kink situations, and in was very much in that space and my brain just kept ticking over, going, I want her to dominate me like I want a girl to to dominate me.

00:27:56:08 - 00:28:19:06

Miss Tori

I was my brain was all of a sudden like, oh my God, this is the bit I've been missing. I'm okay with sobbing, but it needs to be to a woman. Oh. So then when I met my girlfriend and we we talk a lot. She's been so good for my communication. I'm terrible at communicating all this stuff. I still get, like, tongue tied and don't want to have the conversations and get awkward around people.

00:28:19:06 - 00:28:19:23

Miss Tori

00:28:20:00 - 00:28:20:14

Luna

Yeah, same.

00:28:20:18 - 00:28:29:03

Miss Tori

I can still, I still struggle with the boundaries and even knowing how to express them or what the hell they're meant to be. All that stuff. I struggle with all of it anyway. Okay?

00:28:29:07 - 00:28:34:07

Luna

Is it is it knowing your boundaries or talking about them or just all of it?

00:28:34:09 - 00:28:49:09

Miss Tori

I mean, all of it. Yeah. I can get really, like, caught up in the I don't want to have this conversation. Yeah, okay, I overthink it. Maybe I don't know. Oh right. Way that they go, that's probably where my shame a meter sits and there's a little bit there of having actual conversations about this stuff. Sometimes I struggle with still same.

00:28:49:09 - 00:29:08:08

Luna

I mean, I've been practicing this for six years, talking to strangers and talking to clients and talking to people on the internet and like chatting in all sorts of ways. And then sometimes when I'm especially if I'm attracted to someone and they're right there in front of me, especially my current, you know, play friend who's just like, you have to tell me what you want, otherwise I can't give it to you.

00:29:08:08 - 00:29:31:06

Luna

And I'm right there, and they're so hot and I'm just like, what am I love to ask for? I don't know, just use me, I don't know. Also, as we're talking about this tomorrow, I am about to be, like, properly dominated by a woman for the first time tomorrow. It's tomorrow. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to get to just be her toy.

00:29:31:06 - 00:29:45:12

Luna

I'm going to wear my. I have a, like a leather harness that is an awesome gold dragon tail. So I'm going to be a baby dragon and she's going to tame me and like, play with me. Yeah, baby dragon toy. However she wants to use me, she's going to use me. And so we've been chatting about that.

00:29:45:12 - 00:29:53:22

Luna

So anyways, so all of this is like very exciting because I'm like, oh, it's like looking into my future. Like, not only are you guys literally in the future 16 hours or however many hours ahead of me.

00:29:54:00 - 00:29:56:23

Miss Tori

But, like, oh, okay.

00:29:56:23 - 00:30:01:08

Luna

So you were having this, like, I want to be dominated by a woman sensation and.

00:30:01:08 - 00:30:16:16

Miss Tori

Kind of fantasies. I guess it was. It was in fantasy land. And then I went to a sort of a swingers sex party, but it was one of the ones where everyone's kind of dressed up and flirting and. But you can't actually have sex at the party. You need to go off and do that later.

00:30:16:18 - 00:30:17:14

Luna

Okay. So I went.

00:30:17:14 - 00:30:37:01

Miss Tori

To one of those big events where, yeah, everyone's all dressed up. And then and there was a couple of males who were of the dominant, and they were very attract. Like, you could see they liked my energy. They wanted me. Thank you. I want to play with that one. Didn't that didn't happen with either of them? One of them I remained really good friends with, though, so, that was cool.

00:30:37:01 - 00:30:45:06

Miss Tori

But it was. That was when I started to go, oh, there's something in me that they can see. And I think it's the brashness of me.

00:30:45:08 - 00:30:45:15

Miss Tori

Yeah.

00:30:45:16 - 00:30:50:07

Luna

Okay. So when did you start to know you were a brat? Or how how do you conceive of your brat parts?

00:30:50:10 - 00:30:56:03

Miss Tori

Well, this is when I started to play with my girlfriend. Who can be dominant as required.

00:30:56:05 - 00:30:57:21

Miss Tori

And.

00:30:57:23 - 00:31:15:20

Miss Tori

And I just my brain, it was just this is total like, I, I have no issue submitting to you if you say I'm going to say yes. Like she's like, okay, what's your safeword? Blah, blah blah. And I'm like, okay. Knowing full well that I wasn't going to use it. I wasn't going to need it because she can feel my energy.

00:31:15:22 - 00:31:31:05

Miss Tori

We are both energetics. Yeah, we have both energetic connectors, so I don't need to say anything. She can feel whether she needs to go more or less or it's it's nuts. Our energetic connection is so powerful that it's very hard.

00:31:31:07 - 00:31:31:22

Miss Tori

Wow.

00:31:32:00 - 00:31:36:05

Miss Tori

To not have that with other people because it's just phenomenal.

00:31:36:07 - 00:31:37:05

Miss Tori

Well, can we do.

00:31:37:06 - 00:31:40:00

Miss Tori

That with somebody? It's so hard to. Yeah.

00:31:40:01 - 00:31:41:02

Miss Tori

Yeah yeah, yeah.

00:31:41:02 - 00:32:09:04

Bebe

It's funny because it's like my current primary partner. It was a very similar like mom and I, I think I got into these relationships around really similar times. And when we talk about, you know, mum's still friend and my partner, it just seems to be such a similar kind of space of just like, just we're really connected to this person, and, like, the energies just match up, and they're so good at knowing where I'm at, and, like, I feel really seen by that.

00:32:09:04 - 00:32:27:10

Bebe

And it's just really interesting, like hearing mom talk about it every time I'm like, oh yeah, that's also what I feel is I'm very attracted to and I wonder if that's like a, you know, it's just what I've grown up around and like understanding those kind of connections that then I've that's what I saw now.

00:32:27:12 - 00:32:43:17

Miss Tori

So it's funny because I had a lot. I've always had a lot of those connections with friends. I've had friends who would ring me in the morning and be like, what were you doing last night? Because I woke up at three in the morning and like you, have you done last night? Let maybe or I've had friends just.

00:32:43:17 - 00:33:02:21

Miss Tori

I've always had friends ring me being like, are you okay? I'm like, actually, this is going on like I have, I have this like, I've had this connection with a lot of female friends over the years. So it's there. I just suppose I hadn't really tapped into a in a relationship space until I met my current girlfriend.

00:33:02:23 - 00:33:19:00

Luna

But so beautiful because so often I hear about, you know, generational trauma being passed down and we have to heal the trauma of our forebears, etc. but it's like here we have a beautiful example of how we can pass down generational, what do we call it? Love, connection. Joy? Well, I.

00:33:19:00 - 00:33:47:06

Miss Tori

Remember it with my I remember with my, my nanna and my mom. Yeah, I remember like mum would be say something about Nanna and the phone would ring. Oh wow. Or that kind of stuff. And I, I've had that with a lot of my friends. Like it's the same thing. Like I remember that as, like, like I said, generational stuff pulling through that female connection of need of, you know, when somebody is in need, you just know.

00:33:47:08 - 00:33:47:19

Miss Tori

Wow.

00:33:47:20 - 00:34:03:17

Miss Tori

It's been there in my family, I suppose. And so that. Yeah, to have that in a, in a partner is, is it's it's crazy. Yeah. And it opens up the cool space because then you're totally trusting of their ability to know what I guess you want.

00:34:03:19 - 00:34:20:22

Luna

Which is so hot to be able to surrender to as a submissive. And I have an experience in a relationship with a dominant who was a man, where we went from like totally in-tune, totally connected to over the course of a couple of years, like, oh, I've outgrown this person. He is no longer capable of holding space for me.

00:34:20:22 - 00:34:39:11

Luna

And, you know, going from that deep attunement and trust and same patroness to like, oh shit, we're not even in the same library like he was not just a different book. It's like we're miles apart now. It's like, so I would love to hear before we fill in more of your, like, current day details, can you take us back to your early years?

00:34:39:11 - 00:34:50:16

Luna

And on the note of this like lineage, what do you remember learning about sex, either from your family members or from school or from friends? Like what was your sex education like?

00:34:50:18 - 00:35:13:20

Miss Tori

My sex education was very oh, my, my mom was very open with me as well. That was very much an underlying theme of wait till you married to have sex, or have sex when you're old enough to realize what you're doing. All of that sort of stuff. My sister is five and a half years older than me, and I remember at one stage her having a boyfriend and mom making this cute kind of comment, which obviously indicated that they wouldn't possibly be having sex.

00:35:13:22 - 00:35:32:05

Miss Tori

They were obviously just like, but I was like maybe 12 at the time. I was also a very mature kid from the word go. Like, I was a very grown up young person. I was essentially the only child from the time I was 12. I looked a lot older than what I did from a very young age.

00:35:32:07 - 00:35:36:21

Miss Tori

There's photos of me as a 1112 year old. I would have passed off for an adult.

00:35:36:23 - 00:35:38:22

Luna

Oh, damn. Okay.

00:35:39:00 - 00:35:53:19

Miss Tori

Yeah, I, I developed very early and I distinctly remember my sister saying to me one day, if you've got it, flaunt it. That was a really big mistake on her behalf, because I took that to heart and I ran with it for my entire life.

00:35:53:21 - 00:35:58:03

Luna

Really? Well, something like. Wait, how old were you when she said that?

00:35:58:05 - 00:35:59:10

Miss Tori

Maybe 11 or 12.

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:01:23

Luna

Okay, okay. So. Right, we start at 11.

00:36:01:23 - 00:36:10:07

Miss Tori

At 12, I realized that I had power. Over men, I suppose.

00:36:10:09 - 00:36:11:04

Miss Tori

Wow.

00:36:11:06 - 00:36:18:20

Miss Tori

Because of my look and and that sexuality could be powerful. Like I've known that from that age.

00:36:18:20 - 00:36:19:16

Miss Tori

Dang.

00:36:19:16 - 00:36:24:09

Luna

And did you feel like you knew how to work the levers of it? Like you knew how to kind of.

00:36:24:11 - 00:36:40:07

Miss Tori

Use I had? Yeah, I think I did, because, I had at 14, I had a 19 year old boyfriend. Let's not look at the logistics of that. We're in a country town. My mom was very smart, and she said, you cannot go in the car with this person.

00:36:40:09 - 00:36:43:07

Miss Tori

Smart mother, smart mother.

00:36:43:09 - 00:36:46:09

Miss Tori

We broke up. I went to his house, and I lost my virginity.

00:36:46:11 - 00:36:48:03

Luna

Okay. Oh, after the break.

00:36:48:04 - 00:36:57:03

Miss Tori

I wanted that to be done with. That was my attitude. I'm like, let's just get this. You seem like a nice guy. Let's just get this over and done with, shall we?

00:36:57:05 - 00:36:59:10

Luna

Okay. How was it? Like, what do you remember about it?

00:36:59:15 - 00:37:00:18

Miss Tori

00:37:00:20 - 00:37:07:17

Miss Tori

I think it was okay. It was nothing spectacular. It was okay. But I was quite happy with myself that I had got that out of the way.

00:37:07:19 - 00:37:08:13

Luna

00:37:08:15 - 00:37:25:09

Miss Tori

I, I, I remember I went to, I went on my own to the doctors and put myself on the pill like I was very responsible about everything, but I didn't share. Mum, my mom knew nothing about this. Absolutely nothing. I did not share this with her because I don't like people being disappointed in me. And she would have been disappointed in me.

00:37:25:12 - 00:37:43:11

Miss Tori

Okay, I'm a huge people pleaser. It's and to not want to disappoint has shaped a lot of decisions that I've made in my life, and I'm only just realizing that now, at the ripe age of 48, that sometimes you actually need to make decisions for what you want. And yet that brings us to where we're at now, I suppose.

00:37:43:11 - 00:37:44:17

Miss Tori

Yeah. Wow.

00:37:44:17 - 00:37:49:05

Miss Tori

Okay. Interesting. Oh, do you feel like there's a lot of things in that?

00:37:49:05 - 00:37:56:07

Luna

There's so much. But but first, do you feel like that's related to the body parts that you are discovering and or exploring?

00:37:56:09 - 00:38:06:14

Miss Tori

Yes. I think the body part was always there. Yeah. I think running that being a good girl, but then sneaking out at night to go and see boys.

00:38:06:16 - 00:38:08:04

Miss Tori

00:38:08:05 - 00:38:12:23

Luna

Oh my gosh wait I did that. But I was like no I'm such a good girl though I am.

00:38:12:23 - 00:38:28:17

Miss Tori

Well that's it. Everybody thought that I was such a good as a good student. You speak so well to adults. You're so lovely of so this and I'm sneaking out in the middle of the night to meet a boy on the beach and have sex and come home, and no one ever knew. There was no rumors that went around about me.

00:38:28:17 - 00:38:31:19

Miss Tori

Like no one ever. Kind of, like, foiled this image of me.

00:38:31:21 - 00:38:32:16

Luna

Right? Right, right.

00:38:32:16 - 00:38:37:09

Miss Tori

I mean, and that was where I suppose that, like, double life stuff started for me.

00:38:37:11 - 00:38:42:16

Luna

I'm seeing so much of myself in the beautiful mirror that you are offering me, right?

00:38:42:16 - 00:38:44:06

Miss Tori

And I'm like, oh, wow. Whoa.

00:38:44:08 - 00:38:58:00

Luna

I've just been using different words to tell my story. Okay, fill in some of those gaps for us. What do you remember formative about those years? You know, maybe post virginity loss, like we heard sneaking out and going to a beach? That sounds fun. Although maybe. Sandy.

00:38:58:01 - 00:38:59:18

Miss Tori

I don't know, like what that.

00:38:59:18 - 00:39:05:04

Luna

Was like the learning experiences for you during those early formative years?

00:39:05:06 - 00:39:25:22

Miss Tori

Again, it goes right back to that, like 1112 year old sleepovers with girls making excuses to touch girls. I had that from then. So I've always known I'm bisexual. That's that's always been a thing. I've always known that there's no like 20 something year old awakening where I'm like, oh, girls are pretty. I always knew I liked girls, yeah, yeah, I know you and you over there I can't say.

00:39:25:22 - 00:39:26:19

Miss Tori

I knew I love.

00:39:26:19 - 00:39:29:09

Luna

You pretty. I just didn't know that, like, liking them.

00:39:29:09 - 00:39:50:09

Miss Tori

Meant liking them and and and my girlfriend, she's another one. She's had no idea. And to she was in her late 20s is like I starlets everybody except me. I knew from the word go. I remember sleepover games where you would be like touching boobs and stuff like you know, as a like, innocent thing. And I remember thinking at the time that I wanted more.

00:39:50:11 - 00:39:51:00

Miss Tori

Yeah.

00:39:51:02 - 00:40:07:17

Miss Tori

But my friends didn't want more, and I'm not meant to want more. And this continued on into high school. Same thing touching girls, but never anything more than that, country town. This was a while ago. Obviously this was not there were not lesbians running around everywhere. Right. Well.

00:40:07:17 - 00:40:09:15

Luna

They were they were just very discreet, I.

00:40:09:15 - 00:40:11:06

Miss Tori

Think. Well, that's exactly right.

00:40:11:06 - 00:40:15:08

Miss Tori

But in my world, I didn't see anybody, and I had no name.

00:40:15:10 - 00:40:16:10

Miss Tori

And I was never.

00:40:16:12 - 00:40:32:02

Miss Tori

I studied women's studies at university. Like, I knew that this was an option, but somehow I was still so caught into the I must leave the life that is expected of me. That I was still running in that way.

00:40:32:03 - 00:40:33:08

Luna

Right? Right.

00:40:33:10 - 00:40:41:17

Miss Tori

Yeah. Wow. So looking back, I can see this interested pattern and I'm like, wow.

00:40:41:19 - 00:40:43:02

Miss Tori

Oh.

00:40:43:04 - 00:40:47:20

Miss Tori

You know, when you can look back over your life and you can see the pattern, but at the time, you didn't realize you had a pattern.

00:40:47:22 - 00:40:48:05

Miss Tori

Yeah.

00:40:48:07 - 00:41:11:06

Luna

Oh, totally. I feel like that's me every day. I'm like, I'm understanding myself a new all over again. And I thought I even understood that pattern. Okay. New level of the spiral. Do you? Okay, I would, multi-part question. Do you feel like you have a good gaydar, especially when it comes to women? And then I would love to hear you speak a little bit about the like, maybe I'm a lesbian thing more than bisexual sort of situation.

00:41:11:06 - 00:41:15:00

Luna

Like, tell us about that evolution of your current understanding.

00:41:15:03 - 00:41:48:04

Miss Tori

So I don't know that I have I must have a okay gaydar. So I've been married twice to men. I'm still married to a man. My first adult experience with a woman was, at 19. Okay. It was a threesome situation. And I still remember after that, like, group thing, I wanted more with her. I wanted to continue, I wanted to, I just wanted to touch her.

00:41:48:06 - 00:42:02:04

Miss Tori

Yeah, just just just. I don't think she felt the same. And then obviously, I mentioned in the intro I was a stripper for a while. That was when baby was a baby. It was a baby.

00:42:02:06 - 00:42:03:05

Miss Tori

But.

00:42:03:07 - 00:42:13:14

Miss Tori

It's a funny story. I, my friends knew that I like girls. So for my hen's night, they took me to female strippers and my brain went, oh, I can do that.

00:42:13:16 - 00:42:16:18

Luna

Oh, wait, what is a hen's night, like a bachelorette?

00:42:16:19 - 00:42:17:21

Miss Tori

Yeah. That's right.

00:42:17:21 - 00:42:20:00

Luna

Yeah. Okay. Oh, I like and I.

00:42:20:00 - 00:42:21:13

Miss Tori

That's cute.

00:42:21:15 - 00:42:38:14

Miss Tori

Yeah. And then I. And then I was like, I kind of jokingly said I will if, if I see someone advertising, I'll apply for the job. So three weeks before I got married as a 21 year old with a one year old baby.

00:42:38:16 - 00:42:44:04

Miss Tori

I became a stripper. Wow. What was it like? It was great fun.

00:42:44:04 - 00:42:45:13

Miss Tori

I loved it.

00:42:45:15 - 00:42:48:23

Luna

I was, I say you knew how to use it. You had it, so you flaunted it.

00:42:48:23 - 00:42:54:20

Miss Tori

Still give it, still give an amazing lap dance. Just to say I'm just if you nearby if I'm cool.

00:42:54:20 - 00:42:58:05

Luna

And have you recently given an amazing lap dance?

00:42:58:06 - 00:43:00:03

Miss Tori

Yes. Yeah.

00:43:00:05 - 00:43:06:08

Miss Tori

My girlfriend will say yes to that. She will definitely say yes to that. I made her gay panic.

00:43:06:10 - 00:43:07:09

Miss Tori

That's fun.

00:43:07:11 - 00:43:10:00

Miss Tori

There's no trust me, it is the other way around.

00:43:10:02 - 00:43:12:08

Miss Tori

Really? Yeah.

00:43:12:10 - 00:43:18:01

Luna

Yeah. Do you have a favorite kind of chair for lap dances, or is a chair even necessary?

00:43:18:03 - 00:43:26:15

Miss Tori

A chair is great. An actual chair is so much better. Something that's got a back to it or a wall behind it because I kind of climb all over people.

00:43:26:15 - 00:43:28:18

Miss Tori

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:28:19 - 00:43:32:13

Miss Tori

I will be standing on that chair right in front of your face.

00:43:32:15 - 00:43:34:20

Miss Tori

Oh, wow.

00:43:34:22 - 00:43:52:05

Luna

Okay, so did having children affect your sense of sexual self at all? Like, what was that part of your evolution like? Also you're like young and hot and making money off of that. Like what? What was that era like?

00:43:52:07 - 00:44:11:05

Miss Tori

I think it I actually remember thinking at the time that this balances me out because I'm, I'm a I'm a young, newly married mom and I'm living that side. Good girl. And then I've got this other little side of me and that makes me feel complete.

00:44:11:07 - 00:44:12:13

Miss Tori

Okay.

00:44:12:15 - 00:44:22:22

Miss Tori

Yeah. So there's always been that dichotomy of like, good girl versus it's almost like the real me who I kind of keep hidden.

00:44:23:00 - 00:44:23:07

Miss Tori

A little.

00:44:23:07 - 00:44:24:18

Miss Tori

Bit. Not very hidden.

00:44:24:20 - 00:44:44:03

Luna

I was going to say a little bit hidden, but it also sounds like you're able to share yourself with the people who are closest with, which is really. Yeah, not necessarily something that everyone has. Okay. Jumping back, though, to your lesbian bitch, is that do you think that's also related to your own like self prioritization or self-pleasure, or do you see them as separate?

00:44:44:03 - 00:44:53:06

Luna

Kind of like because you spoke a little bit about people pleasing parts and so is that maybe the street bits of you is the people pleasing? Or maybe that's a really convoluted way.

00:44:53:06 - 00:45:01:11

Miss Tori

Is the stripe okay. The yeah, yeah. The people pleasing is the, the yeah. The the heterosexual normative.

00:45:01:13 - 00:45:01:19

Miss Tori

Yeah.

00:45:01:20 - 00:45:24:06

Miss Tori

Of go to school, go to university, get a good job, get married, have a white picket fence, have children. Everybody in my all the females in my family had married young, for me, getting married, in my early 20s was what everybody did. That was normal. So I didn't really think much of it except that this is what you do.

00:45:24:07 - 00:45:46:00

Miss Tori

Of course you do this. This is what everybody does. But there was always little bits in my brain going. Something doesn't feel right here. And so I suppose having that other side to my life kit, it kept my brain okay. It was like, I'm doing this, but I've got this, so I'm okay. Yeah, hard to describe, but yeah.

00:45:46:02 - 00:45:50:02

Luna

Yeah. Well, I also asked a very convoluted projection oriented question.

00:45:50:04 - 00:45:50:16

Miss Tori

It's okay.

00:45:51:17 - 00:45:55:22

I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, you had this.

00:45:55:24 - 00:45:57:02

Trouble that.

00:45:57:05 - 00:46:00:22

You kind of. It sounds like maybe you just appeared in your house.

00:46:00:24 - 00:46:02:00

Literally. Yeah.

00:46:02:00 - 00:46:13:03

Like literally. And then can you just share a little bit about kind of like what the unfolding from there were to that led you to learning more about polyamory and kind of like where you are now with all of that.

00:46:13:05 - 00:46:34:05

So the trap, like I said, the person was a good friend of my partner, and just kind of ended up with us and quite early on, I was aware that there was conversations around boundaries that didn't happen, but I didn't have the strength or the bravery or any of that to have that conversation. So I put that back on him.

00:46:34:08 - 00:46:46:00

I was like, you found this person, so you need to have this conversation. And we actually moved 3000km from one side of Australia to the other side of Australia. And she came with us.

00:46:46:01 - 00:46:47:08

Along with six.

00:46:47:08 - 00:47:06:04

Of the kids. And on the drive up there with just myself and my partner, the initial drive up there, I said to him, when she comes up before me, I need you to have a conversation with her. I need there to be some space in our relationship because I don't feel like we have any space for each other.

00:47:06:09 - 00:47:20:11

It's all and I need there to be some space for you and I, because I can feel the connection between you and her is very strong, and it's making me feel nervous. I I'm not feeling good about this.

00:47:20:12 - 00:47:21:13

Got it.

00:47:21:16 - 00:47:37:01

The conversation didn't happen for months and months and months after that. I got I was aware of the connection that they both had. I it ended up feeling very suspicious, like they were talking behind my back. They were doing things that I didn't know about. I asked him to finish it. I said, I need this to stop.

00:47:37:05 - 00:47:42:11

She needs to move into the other room. We can't keep doing this. Our marriage is about to go down the chain.

00:47:42:12 - 00:47:43:15

00:47:43:17 - 00:47:59:12

I keep in mind, had no language of polyamory. I had no idea what the trouble was. She was starting to date other people, and I felt also that we were holding her back from being in another relationship because she was very much in love with my partner. And I could see that, like, I loved her as part of the family.

00:47:59:12 - 00:48:17:09

As you know. But he was in love with her very strongly, and she had those feelings for him as well. And I and I could feel that bond between them strengthening. And I was feeling a little bit pushed to the side. And I had a high, strict sex drive, and both of them like, I'm like, did you mention lying in a bed with three people and no one's had sex with you?

00:48:17:09 - 00:48:17:24

I'm like, this is not.

00:48:18:00 - 00:48:24:10

Oh my God, my worst nightmare. My, my, my really hurt, my worst nightmares. People are like, no, no, no, but we don't have to have sex. And I'm like.

00:48:24:12 - 00:48:29:24

Fuck, you know, like I'm wearable. I, I.

00:48:30:00 - 00:48:43:12

Am a lot more into women than she was. So she was okay. We had some really nice moments, just the two of us, every now and then. But I was really into women, and she was into women. When there was a man there, I see.

00:48:43:13 - 00:48:44:11

00:48:44:12 - 00:48:55:07

That sort of came a moment where it became quite tricky in the relationship, and I knew that it needed to end, but he didn't want to give it up. And he now identify. He's like, my ego was through the roof. I had two.

00:48:55:07 - 00:48:58:12

Women. I would I want to give up two women.

00:48:58:15 - 00:49:07:03

And people were like, why is why is it so hard for street guys who are polyamorous to get girlfriends? It's like little situations like that.

00:49:07:05 - 00:49:29:11

Exactly. And so anyway, it, it it ended by force in a way, because we had a job situation and she was given the option to either stay in the town we were at or leave and go and work elsewhere. And she chose to leave and go elsewhere. But then I became very, very anxious. I wanted him to cut off everything with her, delete all her photos like.

00:49:29:12 - 00:49:32:19

I was like, full freakout mode, right?

00:49:32:21 - 00:49:36:03

It took. I'm not joking. Two years to get our marriage back.

00:49:36:03 - 00:49:40:07

On track after that. Yeah. Two years of hard work.

00:49:40:09 - 00:49:45:01

Yeah, yeah. And so the irony that now we're in a situation where I'm the one.

00:49:45:01 - 00:49:47:24

Kind of going, I really, really like girls. I don't know.

00:49:47:24 - 00:49:50:09

If I like boys anymore. Sorry about that. And he's like.

00:49:50:09 - 00:49:58:13

Really? It's cause a lot of very, interesting discussions. So we say.

00:49:58:20 - 00:50:04:19

So you've shared that with him, like your questioning is about lesbian. Okay. How is that? Oh, yeah. How is that.

00:50:04:20 - 00:50:09:12

Really hard, really challenging.

00:50:09:15 - 00:50:15:13

So my girlfriend, we were backstory.

00:50:15:16 - 00:50:21:21

She's actually she's actually she's she's a backpacker. We met on a Tinder date.

00:50:21:23 - 00:50:22:02

It's a.

00:50:22:02 - 00:50:30:03

Cute story because we went on a date. She kissed me. I gay, panicked and ran away.

00:50:30:05 - 00:50:37:01

When I met her, my first impression was, oh, my God, she's so much cooler than me.

00:50:37:02 - 00:50:43:08

I'm like, yeah, but we just, we just couldn't stop talking the whole day. Like we were just chattering.

00:50:43:08 - 00:50:50:16

Away and having the best time. But the reason I gay panic was because my brain went if I don't leave now, I am not going to be home.

00:50:50:16 - 00:50:53:03

Till tomorrow afternoon.

00:50:53:05 - 00:50:55:13

And that feels not okay.

00:50:55:16 - 00:51:06:10

Well, because I hadn't had this idea that the discussion I wasn't like. So when you go on dates. Right. Weird discussion. You need to have if you are in a relationship already is how long does a date go for?

00:51:06:12 - 00:51:08:11

00:51:08:12 - 00:51:17:12

Does a date have a time limit? These are questions I had forgotten to ask. Polyamory makes you ask all sorts of questions you never knew you had to ask. You know?

00:51:17:15 - 00:51:21:15

And the rules are always changing. And the context is that. And so it's like, you got it.

00:51:21:15 - 00:51:24:12

And I didn't have so much trouble for changing the rules.

00:51:24:12 - 00:51:30:20

And I'm really bad. I'm really getting a lot of trouble for that. I'm not good at remembering the rules. Oh, good thinking.

00:51:30:22 - 00:51:32:15

Are very good girl.

00:51:32:17 - 00:51:38:13

I know I change the rules and I do change them to suit myself. And my red flag is I can manipulate really well.

00:51:38:16 - 00:51:40:02

Sure, sure, I'm aware of this.

00:51:40:04 - 00:52:00:21

Well, okay, so a little, little lesson on manipulation because I've been studying that a lot the past couple of years because I'm like, where is the line between like normal, socially appropriate human influence upon one another, which we like, which makes us feel connected and like malicious evil manipulation? And my conclusion from the research that I have.

00:52:00:21 - 00:52:02:10

Conducted anecdotally.

00:52:02:12 - 00:52:29:00

Is that it's manipulation. If the other person doesn't like the outcome, but it's bonding influence if you're on the same page. And also there is no way to be perfect about it, but also it's very imperfect and bad when we hide our actual needs and desires from each other. And so as uncomfortable as it is to like, share all of that, it's like kind of awesome that you're that you are willing to change the rules as you go to be like, babe, this is what I need right now.

00:52:29:01 - 00:52:33:01

But it also sounds like a bumpy ride. Wait, so what did you do? How long was the first.

00:52:33:01 - 00:52:34:21

Day so bumpy?

00:52:34:22 - 00:52:35:15

So the first date.

00:52:35:15 - 00:52:46:04

Was, just the. What was that I see? Kiss me. Get better. We both left. I was just like, oh, my God, who is this person?

00:52:46:07 - 00:52:57:13

She went off to a festival. She went off. We, we caught up a couple of weeks later because she's like, oh, I'm leaving tomorrow. I'm like, let's go see you when you come back. Yeah. And then I messaged and we caught up again the second.

00:52:57:13 - 00:52:59:12

Time and it was.

00:52:59:13 - 00:53:04:11

I remember saying to her on the second day, I feel like a teenager. You're making me feel like a teenager.

00:53:04:11 - 00:53:08:05

Like, this is so cute. Like it's so cute. Yeah.

00:53:08:08 - 00:53:26:12

But the other thing I distinctly remember about that day is she took my hand and it felt like the most natural thing in the world. We were walking in the Botanic Gardens and she just took my hand and we were walking along holding hands, and it felt like the most natural, the most comfortable place I had been in in a very long time.

00:53:26:17 - 00:53:29:16

And from there I think my brain went.

00:53:29:19 - 00:53:37:01

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So that was day two with this person.

00:53:37:03 - 00:53:38:13

Oh my gosh. Okay.

00:53:38:13 - 00:53:38:23

00:53:39:02 - 00:53:45:01

I love you for introducing me to the phrase. I think you've introduced it to me, gay panic because now.

00:53:45:03 - 00:53:45:12

You know.

00:53:45:12 - 00:53:46:00

Gay panic.

00:53:46:03 - 00:54:05:23

I don't think I do or maybe people have said it in passing to me and it just hasn't like, hit me like it's hitting me right now because I'm like, okay, so next time I experience that, I can just be like, this is just gay panic and like, breathe through it or something, you know? Because I've definitely had the sort of like, because I don't have a good gaydar and I too am painfully straight passing.

00:54:05:23 - 00:54:29:08

Even when I had my shaved head for years, I'm like, aren't lesbians supposed to hit on me or something? You know, where are the dominant ladies of my dreams, you know? And so, so just hearing hearing that other people have similar intense reactions, is beautiful. Okay. So what have you learned about yourself in the past, like 9 or 10 months sex wise, having this kind of new experience or it sounds new, I don't know.

00:54:29:08 - 00:54:30:05

Does it feel new?

00:54:30:08 - 00:54:52:20

Oh yeah. So I have had so just I've had multiple girlfriends over the years between the first time when I was 19 through to here like there's been I, I like I said patterns I would every few years I would meet a girl, we would connect, I would have an affair. It was always it started above board in my first marriage.

00:54:52:20 - 00:55:02:00

Like there was some kind of knowledge that I really like this girl, and I wanted to hook up with them, but always it ended up being secretive because it was, and I would. I would get shamed into.

00:55:02:00 - 00:55:05:09

What are you doing? Why are you doing that? So that was a thing.

00:55:05:11 - 00:55:16:16

So I'd had lots of experiences with girls along the way. This was the first time I met a girl who was at level 3000.

00:55:16:19 - 00:55:18:09

00:55:18:11 - 00:55:22:12

Yeah, I think that it was just a whole nother level.

00:55:22:12 - 00:55:23:20

Of.

00:55:23:22 - 00:55:26:11

Sex with another woman that was just.

00:55:26:11 - 00:55:41:04

So intense. Yeah. That. Yeah, I. Yeah. The one where you afterwards just going, What even happened there? What was that? Yeah.

00:55:41:07 - 00:55:42:05

And we both have this.

00:55:42:05 - 00:55:46:22

So it's not just me. It's not just her doing this to me. This is. This is now very reciprocal.

00:55:47:01 - 00:56:14:04

And we have a very, I have a very interesting relationship because she's polyamorous as well. Okay. And we lived basically in the same town for the first few months. And she would come to my house and stay. We have had a couple of random threesomes, with my current partner. The first one was hilarious when I realized my legs being girlfriend was more bisexual than me because I.

00:56:14:04 - 00:56:39:02

Assumed because she's very lesbian presenting. I assume she was a lesbian, and next minute she's doing stuff to my male partner and I'm like, oh, you are not looking like a lesbian. No, no, no, no. You seem to be enjoying that immensely. Okay. She's way more by than me. Game of on smack bang in the middle. Either way.

00:56:39:03 - 00:56:41:22

Depends on the person. Yeah, yeah.

00:56:41:24 - 00:56:43:01

And even that, I'm.

00:56:43:01 - 00:56:45:13

Just like, no, I don't really want to touch.

00:56:45:13 - 00:56:49:24

Boys. I don't I'm not attracted to men. In general.

00:56:50:02 - 00:56:54:00

Does that feel new or is it like something that you always knew was there? But now you're like, I've.

00:56:54:00 - 00:57:07:12

Always known I found women far more attractive than men. Okay? Female bodies to me have always appealed far more than male bodies. But I didn't realize quite how much until I heard other people talking about males.

00:57:07:13 - 00:57:08:10

Okay. Oh, really?

00:57:08:11 - 00:57:14:09

And talking about penises and then being perfect. Am I going really?

00:57:14:11 - 00:57:17:00

Is that a thing? I don't really even want to look at them.

00:57:17:01 - 00:57:19:02

I hear that from a lot of people.

00:57:19:04 - 00:57:20:03

Yeah, yeah.

00:57:20:03 - 00:57:28:12

Whereas other people are like, oh, I see that. I want that, I want to touch that. I want like at me, in me or whatever. Yeah. And I'm like.

00:57:28:13 - 00:57:34:15

Rather not okay girls. I'm like, yeah, just let me touch.

00:57:34:15 - 00:57:37:23

Yeah. You're like, put the titties all over me. Let me put my hand in my mouth everywhere.

00:57:37:23 - 00:57:39:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah I didn't.

00:57:39:24 - 00:57:46:22

My love language is not touch with a male. My love language with a woman is touch.

00:57:47:00 - 00:57:47:23

00:57:48:00 - 00:57:51:13

Oh, wow. How interesting to notice that. Okay.

00:57:51:13 - 00:57:52:12

So interesting.

00:57:52:17 - 00:57:59:10

Oh, how was it for you discovering that I also heard some phrases that sounded like me. So I wonder.

00:57:59:10 - 00:58:04:17

If my words have any part in those discoveries.

00:58:04:20 - 00:58:32:17

I think it's it's been more difficult for my male partner than me, to be completely honest. Okay. He saw this connection that I have with my girlfriend, and he saw that I could not keep my hands off her. And he's like, why do you can you not keep your why? Can you keep your hands off me? And he could see my attraction to him diminishing as my attraction to her went up and there was a a degree of new relationship energy going on there.

00:58:32:17 - 00:58:55:04

Yes. Yeah. And that's to be expected. But I feel like it's become more than that. And I and I thought that when my girlfriend actually moved from the town we're both in where she, she left, she, she now lives in another state. I thought that once she left, I would, I guess, reform that attachment to my male partner.

00:58:55:04 - 00:59:01:12

But it was still I was still really struggling with that attachment to him, that sexual attraction to him.

00:59:01:15 - 00:59:02:20

00:59:02:22 - 00:59:13:22

And I still a little bit of me was like, is it because if I, if I, if I'm attracted to you, does that mean that she will somehow disappear.

00:59:13:24 - 00:59:14:22

Out of my life?

00:59:14:24 - 00:59:33:12

Like, you know, it's that struggle of polyamory, I suppose, where you like. It's not a love thing. I have all the love in the world. I don't give that like I don't. I'm not lacking in love. It's more perhaps lacking in sexual attraction. It's like if I'm so sexually attracted here, do I have room to be sexually attracted here?

00:59:33:15 - 00:59:41:02

And that was another thing. Like, is this a girl thing or is this a specific person thing? Yeah. It's a girl thing, just in case you're.

00:59:41:02 - 00:59:43:08

Wondering like, well.

00:59:43:10 - 01:00:11:01

As I interview you and as you have that so you talking about the long distance stuff and that dynamic is now like the fourth time in this interview where you have preempted my questions like, so I didn't even have to ask them and you just answered them, so I, I can't help but hear all of that and wonder if you do just seem to have this, like, stronger, natural psychic connection with them, that if so, and this is just a complete projection noodle out in the wild.

01:00:11:01 - 01:00:27:02

But I'm like, because if I had that, that would make a whole lot more sense sexually. I would feel safer, especially if I'm sneaking up with a person. So then of course, I can skip all of the like words and talking and everything else I need to create connection with a different type of partner. I mean, that's do you feel turned off by dicks?

01:00:27:02 - 01:00:30:11

Like, I've heard some people use the phrase disgusting.

01:00:30:12 - 01:00:32:05

Like, okay, if.

01:00:32:08 - 01:00:36:07

If somebody if somebody if I was to be sent a dick pic, my brain is like.

01:00:36:07 - 01:00:37:21

01:00:37:22 - 01:00:39:04

Right. So you wouldn't be asking like.

01:00:39:04 - 01:00:40:17

Yeah, I don't look at that. Okay.

01:00:40:20 - 01:00:41:16

Yeah. Okay.

01:00:41:19 - 01:00:50:13

Yeah. Now this is, this has become more so as I've gone through my life. I don't remember that always being a thing.

01:00:50:15 - 01:00:53:00

Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

01:00:53:02 - 01:01:19:23

Yeah. I think now I'm, it's it's definitely becomes I definitely feel that my feminine side and my want for females has become much stronger. And I again, I wonder whether that's because I am essentially free of parenting and heteronormative responsibility in my life. Am I finally able to say, you know what actually I want not what is best for everyone in my life.

01:01:20:00 - 01:01:21:23

Yeah baby you.

01:01:22:00 - 01:01:22:10

Just.

01:01:22:12 - 01:01:22:22

It if I can.

01:01:22:24 - 01:01:48:15

Yeah. I mean I was just having a bit of a like a noodle on the, you know, it changing over time like my mum attraction to men in general. And I have recently had a conversation with my partner about how, like, I went on a date with a male bodied person and I just didn't feel the urge to connect with them sexually.

01:01:48:17 - 01:02:10:04

Even though we've been having some spicy chats and stuff previously in person, I just didn't feel that same kind of connection. And but I still, like I had that with a woman recently, and I sort of, I start to look at it from like a scarcity mentality. This is a whole working through it with my partner thing the other day, it was crazy.

01:02:10:07 - 01:02:42:03

Just blew my mind where because I have access to a person who has a penis. Yeah, I feel that need is fulfilled. That makes sense. So that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for experiences outside of that. And now, like I said earlier, I have a really strong emotional connection with my partner and also that I've ever dealt with a male body person like, this is a person who's so empathetic and able to see my needs before I know I have them sometimes and so willing to talk through a lot of stuff.

01:02:42:03 - 01:03:07:16

And I know I've chatted with mum about her girlfriend around, like just that ability to talk about things and being seen and heard and understood. Yeah. And I think because of that, if I meet anyone else out in the world, if I don't have that sort of connection with them, I just don't seem to feel the sexual energy quite so much, and even less so with male bodied people.

01:03:07:19 - 01:03:34:20

That's something I'm kind of noticing as because we're quite new to non-monogamy as we enter this space kind of really fresh. I'm noticing that. Yeah, like, I still would love to have those connections with women and female body people. Vagina owners, but I don't have that urge at all with Melbourne people. So for, which is really interesting, and I wonder if maybe there is sort of that.

01:03:34:20 - 01:03:52:22

I mean, my mom and I are quite similar as far as, how our brains work, I think. And I think there is sort of that, like when you've already got that need fulfilled in one area, you don't need that otherwise. But it seems like, you know, because this is new and exciting. I just want to explore it so much more.

01:03:53:02 - 01:03:53:10

01:03:53:12 - 01:04:26:15

You know, like that's the space I want to inhabit. I actually a bit of a little excitement, I, I, I was just writing because I do a lot of writing to get my thoughts out, but I was writing, like, poetry and stuff, and I can't remember the line exactly now, but essentially it was about how, because men came to me in floods, it was overwhelming that because women were so scarce and so few and far between, it felt like summer showers after a drought.

01:04:26:17 - 01:04:28:05

01:04:28:08 - 01:04:58:12

Because it just like the way that that soothes your soul and that and your body and your mind, because it just feels like a relief to finally have that experience is so yeah, it's really powerful. I think, but yeah, so because I think I also noticed, you know, I could not manipulate, but I had some sexual power, like I could go onto an app and I could find a male person who wanted to have sex with me like that, and it would not be an issue.

01:04:58:13 - 01:05:14:20

I could just make that happen. Whereas women. It's. I found it so much harder to access. Kind of those queer spaces. Just like, not from lack of wanting or trying. Yeah. Just like not quite knowing how to go about it because the dynamic is different.

01:05:14:22 - 01:05:36:21

Yeah, it doesn't make it up as you go sort of situation. But so interesting also, as I hear you both speak and I reflect on the little that I know of the parallels you're living is king like baby. I know that you've had dynamic explorations off and on over the past several years. Miss Tori, are you like, newer to power Dynamics?

01:05:36:21 - 01:05:51:24

You said you've been, like identified by dominance, but in terms of, like, warring, it comfortably connected with a partner. Is that newer for you? Because it sounds like you are both having parallel emotional safety experiences in your explorations.

01:05:52:00 - 01:05:59:00

So in my first marriage, there was not emotional safety there, so there's no way that I would have entered that kink space.

01:05:59:00 - 01:05:59:15

That makes sense.

01:05:59:15 - 01:06:18:02

And think of a safe space for me. Okay. Yeah, that would not have been a safe space to be in, there. We, you know, not the we didn't have a great sex life, but because of some other dynamics that wouldn't have been that wouldn't have been a safe space. My current partner is quite submissive himself.

01:06:18:04 - 01:06:28:00

Okay. And so this has become difficult because there's been times that I've wanted him to be more dominant with me. But when he does, because he's not comfortable in the space, I just feel awkward.

01:06:28:07 - 01:06:29:22

Oh my gosh, I been there like.

01:06:29:23 - 01:06:46:13

And or I feel like he goes into this like angry space, which is not. But it feels it. And I've had times, even when like I feel like I've always, I always said that I'm too scared to be tied up. I'm scared of being tied. I, I'm quite claustrophobic, and that's.

01:06:46:13 - 01:06:48:05

Part of it.

01:06:48:08 - 01:06:49:01

It's not for everyone.

01:06:49:01 - 01:07:13:09

But then and there's been times where I've tried it and then been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, get me out of here. And I did cause a big argument in my current relationship when I admitted that I'd let my, my go tie me and I asked her to. Yeah, and I wanted I wanted so much for her to restrain me, and I and I feel totally safe with that.

01:07:13:11 - 01:07:14:24

Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:14:24 - 01:07:32:23

And again, that's where that safety comes in. But just going back to the thing of, like, when you have that need met, you don't look for it. When I was in my first marriage, I don't remember seeing other men like, I don't. I used to see all the women, and I like I said, I had numerous affairs with other women along the way.

01:07:33:00 - 01:07:44:23

They were kind of there are all fair is kind of probably kind of the wrong word, because my partner at the time knew that I like this woman, was probably going to do something with them. But then after when I did, I got into a lot of trouble for it.

01:07:44:24 - 01:07:45:09

It was like.

01:07:45:13 - 01:07:48:03

Okay, I have sex with this girl. And then I would. And then they were like.

01:07:48:03 - 01:07:48:20

Oh my God.

01:07:48:20 - 01:07:52:13

I can't believe you had sex with that girl. So that was an interesting deal.

01:07:52:20 - 01:07:53:12

That's a whiplash.

01:07:53:12 - 01:07:55:08

Dynamic to with.

01:07:55:10 - 01:08:02:02

But then when I was single at 35 for the first time, I was like men, men, men, men, men because it was so easy.

01:08:02:02 - 01:08:02:23

Easy. Yeah.

01:08:02:23 - 01:08:08:22

And the few women that I had connection with one was lovely, but little stalkerish, but taught.

01:08:08:22 - 01:08:09:24

Me.

01:08:10:00 - 01:08:11:19

How to squirt. So that was fun.

01:08:11:21 - 01:08:16:02

Oh. So randomly. That was a girl. But.

01:08:16:02 - 01:08:31:14

Then I had two other girls. I never really felt that real connection to girls. And I don't like being a unicorn because I find it's a really, you have to be very strong to walk into a dynamic couple and then walk away on your own. Yeah. And as a single person, I'm like, oh, that was.

01:08:31:14 - 01:08:34:21

Tough right out. Yeah, but but if I'm looking for you guys.

01:08:34:21 - 01:08:37:00

Have an awesome cuddle and I'm going to go home on my.

01:08:37:00 - 01:08:38:05

Own.

01:08:38:07 - 01:08:41:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean I'm looking for connection at the time. That's tough. Yeah, yeah.

01:08:41:16 - 01:08:42:24

Yeah I hear. Yeah.

01:08:43:00 - 01:08:44:13

And also I don't really I'm really bad at.

01:08:44:13 - 01:08:45:13

Starting things with girls.

01:08:45:13 - 01:08:51:03

So I was even worse then. So even if it would, I know I went on a date with one and we just talked.

01:08:51:05 - 01:08:51:11

The whole.

01:08:51:11 - 01:08:52:13

Time and I'm like left.

01:08:52:13 - 01:08:57:11

Going, damn it. You're like, oh my God, I forgot. I know, I know.

01:08:57:14 - 01:09:01:08

Have you like, can I talk and touch you at the same time? I know guys get.

01:09:01:10 - 01:09:01:17

01:09:01:21 - 01:09:04:11

But sometimes girls can do it all at once okay.

01:09:04:14 - 01:09:05:17

Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

01:09:05:22 - 01:09:22:00

So that that thing of like, when you have that need met, you don't go looking for that elsewhere. It's not that. Yeah. It's. Yeah, it's almost like I have a man I don't want two men. So therefore that is that, that that side of my life is.

01:09:22:02 - 01:09:23:10

Oh yeah.

01:09:23:13 - 01:09:25:17

So I think I've experienced that as well.

01:09:25:19 - 01:09:28:00

So a double dick threesome is not in your future.

01:09:28:00 - 01:09:29:24

I'm not in a group situation that's different.

01:09:30:00 - 01:09:31:03

Oh is it?

01:09:31:05 - 01:09:39:16

But even then recently every time I've got into that group situation, I'm like, yeah, are you done yet? Might because I'm not really feeling it.

01:09:39:18 - 01:09:46:20

Okay, okay. For men it's like yeah. So I've kind of stopped doing that. This isn't what it. Yeah.

01:09:46:22 - 01:10:04:22

It's funny because I had the same experience after like leaving my ex. So it's funny that like my mum was like oh yeah. Because I got out of this marriage of the first marriage. I then ended up hooking up with men a lot and I'm like, I do the exact same thing. I was like, part of the reason is because I wanted to explore my sexuality.

01:10:04:24 - 01:10:10:10

And then I only hooked up with men. I was like, what is this? Oh, like, mostly it's.

01:10:10:10 - 01:10:12:05

Because it's easy. Yeah.

01:10:12:07 - 01:10:30:19

It's because it's easy. And when you've got a high sex drive and I think mum and I probably both feel that way. When you've got a high sex drive, you just kind of want that, you know, whether that's in, you know, a body situation or a one night hook up when that's what you're after. And like I realized, I also crave that sort of intimate connection, even if it is for a short time.

01:10:30:21 - 01:10:46:00

Like, I would rather have sex with a stranger than masturbate sometimes because I'm just craving that, like interpersonal sort of stuff. And so because of that, I would just find I would go to whoever I could find, which often was men.

01:10:46:02 - 01:10:46:06

01:10:46:13 - 01:10:50:08

Yeah, yeah. Just really similar kind of dynamics.

01:10:50:10 - 01:11:01:00

What's interesting is I now know that if I was if I was single right now, I wouldn't even open my dating sites up to men.

01:11:01:01 - 01:11:02:13

Okay, that's very clear.

01:11:02:13 - 01:11:11:20

I know that 1,000% that even if I was to be single right now, at this moment, I would not open my dating sites out to men.

01:11:11:22 - 01:11:12:22

01:11:12:23 - 01:11:14:23

Which is why I feel like there's been a shift.

01:11:15:00 - 01:11:15:16

01:11:15:18 - 01:11:32:08

Also, because it's interesting how in life often people tell you that something is the way it is and you don't realize that you believe them. So someone had always said to me, oh my God, having relationships you don't want? Oh my God, women are terrible like you think being in a relationship with a man is bad? Wait till you're in a relationship with women.

01:11:32:08 - 01:12:00:13

They're awful. They're so hormonal. It's. It's up and down. It's it's this. It's that. But then I met a woman who is so emotionally mature and stable and way younger than me. So it should be the other way around. But it's not, and just so good at talking about things and so good at if there's a rupture in our day, she will stop whatever is going on, and we will fix that rupture right there and then, and we will not move until it is fixed.

01:12:00:16 - 01:12:04:05

Oof! Repair is so hot. Good repair is oh my God.

01:12:04:06 - 01:12:05:19

Amazing repair trust.

01:12:05:19 - 01:12:06:01

Building.

01:12:06:01 - 01:12:28:00

And this natural reciprocity in the relationship where we just see each other's needs and we try to meet, we try to meet the other person's need before they know they have it. Wow. But also a complete openness where there's no expectation from either of us that the other person is available to the other person, and if she's with her, another person, I'm totally respectful of that and be like, oh, you're such and such as House.

01:12:28:00 - 01:12:30:08

Oh, good. I'll wait till you message me.

01:12:30:10 - 01:12:38:22

Oh, which is a hot sort of edging. How is it? So you don't there's no you don't experience jealousy. Things like it sounds like some campervan vibes.

01:12:38:24 - 01:12:52:23

Occasionally I experienced jealousy. Yes. But. So there was, She. I actually went on her first date with her to meet this girl, so. That was cute. So I'd met her, and I'm like, oh, wow, she's really hot.

01:12:53:00 - 01:12:55:08

We look weirdly similar. It's kind of funny.

01:12:55:10 - 01:13:05:03

But she's also not married. She doesn't live 2000km away. She rides a motorbike and I speak.

01:13:05:05 - 01:13:06:23

The same language as my girlfriend.

01:13:06:23 - 01:13:25:10

Unlike me. Like, there's always. It's. I felt like she was me, but better. Oh, and that that was really tricky. That was. I was like, I was totally kind of like, oh, my God, I'm so happy you guys are going to hook up. You guys are going to be so cute together. But there was a little moment that it was like, she's me, but better.

01:13:25:13 - 01:13:26:04

That sounds tough.

01:13:26:04 - 01:13:32:17

And I needed a little bit of reassurance that there's no such thing as me about better. Yes. In life.

01:13:32:22 - 01:13:33:09

01:13:33:11 - 01:13:52:19

There's just you and you are who you are. And we, you know, and I love you for that. And it's not about anyone being better. We're all different. And so there was a little moment of that. But again, we have this conversation. I'm like, I'm feeling really jealous because of that. And I think this is why I'm feeling jealous.

01:13:52:21 - 01:13:58:21

And then we have a chat and we're all reassured and we're back and we're good and we're okay.

01:13:58:22 - 01:14:22:16

Wow. It's so funny because I have the exact same experience. My mum and I, I think are very energetically linked because I had like, you know, my partner had started to interact with someone online and they had heaps in common, more so than we do as far as their hobbies and interests were concerned. Also really sexual, just a little bit older than me.

01:14:22:17 - 01:14:44:22

Also really, really beautiful. And like just it made my brain be like, oh no, but what if you could just have me? But better? And so immediately I started to fall into that same sort of, you know, like anxious, kind of jealous, but not quite jealous because I was so excited about the prospect of them meeting and hooking up and to the point where I was like, they had a plan to catch up.

01:14:44:24 - 01:15:08:02

And I was like, please go do that, because I don't know how I'm going to feel until after that's happened. I would rather you follow through with your plan and then, but know that I might need to have a discussion with you regarding my feelings and how it like I'm dealing with that which might not be good, but I really would love it if you kept doing this, because I don't know how I feel until I'm in it.

01:15:08:02 - 01:15:36:03

And that's just me kind of acknowledging that I don't always know how I feel, you know, like and that was a really hard thing to do. But it was just that same sort of thing where I was like, oh, this person is me. But then better. And we had a huge conversation about how like, that's not at any point where their mind wasn't right, like my partner had not even like that was never the point of view they were taking because they love me and they want to spend like, you know, all the time with me.

01:15:36:03 - 01:15:47:24

But this is just the person that they also had a connection with, but not in the same way. And it was just really interesting how like and it's like there's room for multiple versions of connection.

01:15:48:03 - 01:15:48:13

01:15:48:16 - 01:16:06:24

And like, you know, I thought that was really it's just it's so funny hearing mum talk about it and being like, that is literally being reflected in my own life in this present moment. Because I think you mentioned it before, how we are kind of in very similar spaces as far as our own journeys.

01:16:07:00 - 01:16:09:07

Yeah. In.

01:16:09:09 - 01:16:15:04

You know, a relationship and sexual scope, which I think is really funny and interesting.

01:16:15:06 - 01:16:16:02

It is how.

01:16:16:03 - 01:16:36:04

How incredible that you can be such mirrors and teachers and just like life companions, but like compatriots on the journey, you know what I mean? Like, that's that's just, it just gets me wondering about past lives or kind of soul connections or whatever, you know, whatever energetic threads are like human oneness in these physical bodies delivers to us.

01:16:36:06 - 01:16:59:22

And isn't it funny how like, for me, at least from the inside out, the experience of every other person I come across is vastly different. Like no one person ever feels the same. But I too can connect with like, oh, I'm like that person, but different because of how my binary human brain experiences the world. In contrast, you know, even though I have this kind of like more intense yeah, yeah, mindset that.

01:16:59:24 - 01:17:01:13

01:17:01:16 - 01:17:03:02

Mystery.

01:17:03:03 - 01:17:03:16

Yes.

01:17:03:18 - 01:17:12:08

What are your orgasms like? What is your body like? Do you know how orgasmic your daughter is?

01:17:12:10 - 01:17:16:16

Look, I would say given.

01:17:16:18 - 01:17:17:17

She has a very.

01:17:17:17 - 01:17:21:00

Very, I she.

01:17:21:01 - 01:17:23:17

One of the brothers has no boundaries.

01:17:23:19 - 01:17:29:04

No boundaries, no boundaries whatsoever. And so I'm gonna like, I'm going to, like going.

01:17:29:04 - 01:17:31:20

Across over the information that he.

01:17:31:20 - 01:17:43:02

Gives the family and his girlfriend as well. And so anyway, neither of them have boundaries. It's hilarious. And I'm going to know what I'm like, and I'm going to go and I'm going to go. What?