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36 bisexual white femme, sub-leaning switch, ex-Christian, single, non-monogamous, actor, singer, writer, instructional designer, Los Angeles-based, into: sensation play, stimulation, touch, hot words, photography, film, environments

🔗 SARAH LINKS | @sarahekarnes / skarnes.substack.com

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00:05:01:08 - 00:05:26:18

Luna

Our guest today is a 36 year old bisexual, white, fem ish ex Christian who is single. Actively dating and exploring non-monogamy. A sub leaning switch. She's exploring all the sensations and stimulation that turn her on, including being touched everywhere. Hot words, photography, film and I love this. Environments. We don't talk about this often. I mean, we talk about like, where have you done it?

00:05:26:18 - 00:05:28:02

Luna

Interesting places. But I'm excited to.

00:05:28:02 - 00:05:29:07

Luna

Get into environments.

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:43:11

Luna

Specifically. An actor, singer and writer from Seattle, she is now a Los Angeles based, works in instructional design and is exploring a new path to support others in their sexual unfurling. Welcome, Sarah.

00:05:43:13 - 00:05:47:06

Sarah

Hello. Could you. I'm so excited.

00:05:47:06 - 00:06:08:11

Luna

I'm excited to have you here. Can you start off by telling our sweet listeners, if you had to rate yourself today on a sexual shame meter, with ten being the most full of sexual shame and zero being like, oh, it's gone. It's never coming back. Where do you fall today? And what has your shame a meter coaster looked like squiggle wise in your lifetime?

00:06:08:13 - 00:06:12:01

Sarah

It's been very, very squiggly. Today.

00:06:12:03 - 00:06:16:20

Sarah

Today, I feel like a 3 to 2 and a half to.

00:06:16:20 - 00:06:29:22

Sarah

Three feels about right today. Okay. I feel very open. And it's. I'm still learning how to talk about sex with other people. Like, I have a lot of experience.

00:06:30:04 - 00:06:32:13

Sarah

And it's still.

00:06:32:15 - 00:06:34:04

Sarah

It's a constant learning experience.

00:06:34:05 - 00:06:42:08

Luna

So every person is literally a new person. Yeah. So it's different every time. It is different every time.

00:06:42:10 - 00:06:45:17

Sarah

Every single time we can learn.

00:06:45:19 - 00:06:50:23

Sarah

A million things. And still there will be more to learn. Over the course of my life.

00:06:51:01 - 00:06:52:09

Sarah

00:06:52:11 - 00:07:19:08

Sarah

I mean it's yeah I would say I've run the gamut from about where I'm at now all the way to a ten. I don't think a ten. That doesn't really come into play as much anymore. It's more nowadays about what I'm willing to share and with whom than it is about shame. For me personally and I feel, I don't know if lucky is the right word.

00:07:19:08 - 00:07:28:21

Sarah

I know a lot of people with similar religious backgrounds to me, have had a lot of struggle with shame, and my struggle in the past was more with guilt than it was with shame.

00:07:28:23 - 00:07:30:04

Sarah

00:07:30:06 - 00:07:37:16

Sarah

And so it's that has that's still comes up sometimes. And then the shame remains.

00:07:37:19 - 00:07:39:04

Sarah

Yeah. Say more.

00:07:39:06 - 00:07:41:14

Luna

And are they related?

00:07:41:16 - 00:07:43:12

Sarah

I imagine they are. In some.

00:07:43:12 - 00:07:44:15

Sarah

Ways.

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:11:13

Sarah

Shame feels to me more like it's more akin to an embarrassment for me personally. And guilt is more about falling short of some kind of ideal or ideal in air quotes, because it's. I don't believe in some in the ideals that would make me feel guilty about the things that I sometimes feel guilty about.

00:08:11:15 - 00:08:12:06

Sarah

Yeah.

00:08:12:08 - 00:08:34:05

Sarah

So it's it fluctuates, but and more so around like family or friends who knew me back in my religious days or people that I maybe haven't spoken to about sex specifically. And then depending on the person, sometimes there's a little bit like you've described it like squiggly and like a little.

00:08:34:05 - 00:08:40:23

Sarah

Bit like shy, but also excited. So it's.

00:08:41:00 - 00:08:46:17

Sarah

It's squiggly. Sometimes it morphs, sometimes it's more specific. It moves around.

00:08:46:19 - 00:09:05:01

Luna

I totally relate to that. Okay. So tell us a little bit before we get into all of your details, what does your health and safety landscape look like right now? Like what do you need to feel safe and good with a new lover?

00:09:05:03 - 00:09:14:08

Sarah

Yeah. You know, that is something that also, it changes depending on, you know, my situation, how many people and seeing.

00:09:14:10 - 00:09:14:19

Sarah

What the.

00:09:14:19 - 00:09:33:01

Sarah

Context of each relationship is and I would say, like I start every, every relationship, every sexual relationship that I have. There is a health and safety conversation. And I am usually the one to start it.

00:09:33:03 - 00:09:34:07

Sarah

00:09:34:09 - 00:09:48:04

Sarah

Which I hadn't thought about too much until just thinking about coming on here. And I was like, oh yeah, that's usually me. Okay. Interesting. And I have some feelings about that. And wanting to maybe share the load a little bit more with other people.

00:09:48:04 - 00:09:48:12

Sarah

Okay.

00:09:48:12 - 00:09:57:21

Sarah

But I always have a, like, okay, what what's your testing routine?

00:09:57:21 - 00:09:58:20

Sarah

Like.

00:09:58:22 - 00:10:10:15

Sarah

What are how many partners do you currently have? What's their situation? For me to feel comfortable. I prefer to have somebody.

00:10:10:15 - 00:10:11:08

Sarah

Who.

00:10:11:11 - 00:10:20:11

Sarah

Prefers someone has been tested within the last month or two. Depending on, you know, how recently.

00:10:20:11 - 00:10:21:11

Sarah

Their last they were with.

00:10:21:11 - 00:10:27:05

Sarah

Somebody else and just there's, as you know, like so many different nuances at play.

00:10:27:09 - 00:10:28:12

Sarah

00:10:28:14 - 00:10:53:10

Sarah

I've gotten comfortable with a level of risk and meaning that I don't. I have yet to use protection for any kind of oral sex. It's something that I'm open to if and when that, like, feeling comes up of, like, actually, oh, this is not a situation in which I feel safe about that, but I still would like to engage with the person.

00:10:53:12 - 00:11:15:12

Sarah

But it's not something that I've explored yet. This. I'm thinking about attending my first sex party or play party. And in that scenario, I think I would. I think that would be a thing like, okay, this is this is a space wherein that would feel the most thought to me. Yeah. Especially if I have other partners at the time.

00:11:15:12 - 00:11:22:22

Sarah

Yeah. If I'm going and I'm not seeing anybody else, I might feel okay with some wiggle room around that. But it's also very.

00:11:22:22 - 00:11:23:06

Sarah

In the.

00:11:23:06 - 00:11:35:05

Sarah

Moment to, like, have a conversation. If there are boundaries that people have, then setting those boundaries and then always leaving room for adjustment because how we feel changes.

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:35:17

Luna

Absolutely.

00:11:35:18 - 00:11:36:07

Sarah

All the time.

00:11:36:08 - 00:11:58:03

Luna

Yes. I'm so glad you said that, because leaving room for people to be people, because we are so changeable, is such a wise thing to do. You know, I have a partner that I've been seeing off and on who has a vasectomy. And we all know I love vasectomies. And I also take my personal health and safety very seriously because I've had partners not take it seriously in the past.

00:11:58:03 - 00:12:24:18

Luna

And I don't need consequences that I don't need. And so with him, I'm like, all right, you are going to be my one raw cock that I play with right now. And if you want to play with someone else unprotected, I need to know about it. I need you to get tested in between. I need to like if and if I find out that there has been a lapse in communication, then we revert, you know, or otherwise, just wrap it up and let me be your, like, unprotected bay.

00:12:24:18 - 00:12:46:10

Luna

And we're fluid bonded you know, so I, I think that all of those details are really good. I'm a huge fan of always defaulting to protection at sex parties. And I just want a PSA for everyone. Protection goes with lube. If you are using protection and then licking yourself and putting those in things, then you are. That is a fluid bonding situation.

00:12:46:10 - 00:12:47:13

Luna

So just make sure that you're.

00:12:47:13 - 00:12:47:19

Sarah

Being.

00:12:47:19 - 00:13:03:20

Luna

Consistent there. I had a partner recently do that and I was like, oh no, you be here. I have to lube right here. And actually you go wash that hand now, okay. Thank you. Like, you know, just because if we're erring on the side of caution, let's really on the side of caution. Anything else? Health and safety wise, I hear testing, I hear.

00:13:03:20 - 00:13:11:14

Luna

What about emotions or just other physical things? Or is this a good place to talk about environment? To start off the theme of environment.

00:13:11:16 - 00:13:13:20

Sarah

00:13:13:22 - 00:13:40:12

Sarah

I'm not sure. Well I think we'll hold off on the environment piece because I think that is less relevant here. But I emotionally yes, I mean I am somewhat demi sexual and that has been a long journey. As a high libido person to work with my own emotions and what it is that I need to feel safe to engage with somewhat sexually and, lots of bumps and twists and turns.

00:13:40:12 - 00:14:14:08

Sarah

And now I know that I need sort of that, ineffable connection, like a thing that I can't really describe. But I know when I feel and if there isn't that specific kind of chemistry, that doesn't mean I can't engage with someone sexually. It just means that I need to spend a little more time with them. Have more clarifying conversations around what we're both seeking out of the relationship, and just be really in touch with myself and what I'm feeling.

00:14:14:08 - 00:14:39:16

Sarah

Like maybe I've said to people on first dates where there is a good vibe and we feel good. I've said, like, I would like to kiss you right now, and I know that I need to sit with this for a couple of days. And so I'm into this. This is fun. This feels good. How do you feel about, you know, we'd be in touch and see how things go from here.

00:14:39:16 - 00:14:44:05

Sarah

Because I know from experience that I have engage with people and then come home been like.

00:14:44:07 - 00:14:45:15

Sarah

Oh.

00:14:45:17 - 00:14:48:03

Sarah

I actually didn't like that.

00:14:48:05 - 00:14:50:06

Sarah

But I don't always know in advance. Yeah.

00:14:50:09 - 00:14:56:08

Sarah

And being really in tune with myself to be able to ask for the time that I.

00:14:56:08 - 00:15:00:14

Sarah

Need and ask for,

00:15:00:16 - 00:15:14:06

Sarah

Specific specifics when it comes to connection. I one of my very first sexual experiences with somebody, we didn't have sex, but it was the it's like the one makeout session that I've had where I'm like, that was.

00:15:14:06 - 00:15:16:23

Sarah

Sex. Hot.

00:15:17:03 - 00:15:42:08

Sarah

Yeah. And it was so hot and nothing ever came after that. But in that moment, it was something that like, it was a connection where we did have a good vibe. There had been some little bumps in the road. We came back around and reconnected. And then when we're finally making out for the first time, I have this internal check of like, oh, am I not as into this as I thought I was going to be?

00:15:42:10 - 00:15:53:20

Sarah

That's disappointing. That would be okay. Let me ask for a pause. I'm going to run to the bathroom really quick, and I did that, sat with my feelings for a second, and.

00:15:53:20 - 00:15:55:20

Sarah

I was like, oh.

00:15:55:22 - 00:16:22:17

Sarah

We haven't emotionally connected tonight. We did last night. We have in the past, but tonight we haven't really connected emotionally. And so I came back and was like, hey, ask me a question. And he did. And then we didn't even talk about anything deep or heavy. It just was, okay, now we're talking and relating to each other. And then I was back in my body.

00:16:22:17 - 00:16:46:08

Sarah

I was like, oh yeah, no, I'm into this. So learning like that experience was really, really formative for me and has been a good foundation for when I find myself in moments where I feel a little uncertain to be able to take time, pause, ask myself the questions I need to ask myself, and then ask for what I need.

00:16:46:10 - 00:16:48:11

Sarah

It's very easy to say right now.

00:16:48:12 - 00:16:50:14

Sarah

And this super hard to do.

00:16:50:14 - 00:16:51:16

Sarah

In the moment, but.

00:16:51:16 - 00:17:10:09

Luna

Totally. I mean, I was going to say that's like straight out of Marshall Rosenberg's like Nonviolent Communication. Like, what is the feeling? What is the need, what is the request? And then you communicate it. And what I heard in your example is not like, oh, suddenly I made a big, huge emotional. Now we have a processing conversation in the middle of sex.

00:17:10:09 - 00:17:28:22

Luna

It's like I went away. I breathed for myself. I identified the clear thing and instead of going back, I'd be like, well, I realize I didn't feel emotionally connected, you know, which then the partner can feel criticized and this and that. I've been guilty of that more than once. You were just like, hey, this is the thing I need without even being like, I realized the need was missing.

00:17:28:22 - 00:17:31:22

Luna

You just you just got what you didn't.

00:17:32:00 - 00:17:36:17

Sarah

Give the full context. And yet sometimes, sometimes you do need to give more context.

00:17:36:18 - 00:17:39:01

Sarah

But sometimes you want time, and I need.

00:17:39:01 - 00:17:40:15

Sarah

To. Yeah, exactly. And that's for you.

00:17:40:15 - 00:17:43:17

Sarah

And sometimes I don't mean to. Yeah.

00:17:43:19 - 00:17:46:20

Sarah

It's hard to know when when is which. Sometimes.

00:17:46:20 - 00:17:53:12

Luna

Oh, we don't have to be perfect at it. I just think we can highlight that excellent experience because you said it was a, like, a more formative experience.

00:17:53:14 - 00:17:54:05

Sarah

It was a more.

00:17:54:05 - 00:17:59:01

Sarah

Formative experience as well. It was only my second sexual experience with another person.

00:17:59:01 - 00:18:09:00

Luna

Oh, well, I am applauding that. How did you learn that skill of checking in with yourself? Is that something that was modeled for you? Is that like one of your natural talents? Okay, no, that was.

00:18:09:00 - 00:18:09:20

Sarah

Not something.

00:18:10:02 - 00:18:36:21

Sarah

Modeled for me. This is so I came to sex and experiencing sex with other people late. I had a I was in my 30s. I think I learned how to have that kind of conversation with myself just through therapy. I it was not something that was modeled for me. And it's something that took a takes a lot of practice.

00:18:36:23 - 00:19:06:00

Sarah

And I did have in my first sexual experience with another person, it was with somebody who I felt very, very safe with. And felt able to have a lot of very open, vulnerable conversations about what felt good, what felt safe, both physically and emotionally. And so that gave me a really good foundation. I also am a nerd, and I before I ever engaged with another person sexually, I was hardcore researching like, okay, what do I need?

00:19:06:00 - 00:19:26:14

Sarah

What? What's going to work for me? What's the context like, how do you talk about sex with another person? Because I had so little experience in doing that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been it's taken effort. It's not something that I experienced early on.

00:19:26:16 - 00:19:27:06

Sarah

I do think.

00:19:27:06 - 00:19:32:12

Sarah

It comes naturally to me, though. I do think there's a piece of that at play.

00:19:32:13 - 00:19:51:14

Luna

Amazing. Okay. I would love more details on how you learned about sex. It sounds like the early years there was not so much information. It sounds like you've done a lot of self-education, but fill in the gaps for us. Like, did you get a sex ed? What was the environment you grew up in? Like did you talk about with friends and then what did you learn your own self?

00:19:51:16 - 00:19:52:18

Sarah

Yeah.

00:19:52:20 - 00:19:59:11

Sarah

I did not get any kind of real sex education. And I say real meaning nobody.

00:19:59:13 - 00:20:02:10

Sarah

Told me what it was.

00:20:02:12 - 00:20:18:10

Sarah

The conversations were, very purity culture coded. I grew up in an evangelical Christian home, and so the things that were said were more, do you know what purity means?

00:20:18:12 - 00:20:19:11

Sarah

And.

00:20:19:13 - 00:20:48:22

Sarah

And I at, in like, seventh grade being asked that question and, feeling very stuck and uncertain about how to answer that, because I knew it had something to do with something that I wasn't supposed to know about, but I didn't totally know what that was. And then being asked, do you know what this is? Because they're going to talk about it in youth group was like,

00:20:49:00 - 00:20:58:23

Sarah

I think I expressed hesitation and then was given room to like, okay, if you're not comfortable talking about it, we don't have to. And that was my like, okay, get by.

00:20:59:01 - 00:21:00:16

Sarah

I'm not comfortable.

00:21:00:18 - 00:21:26:21

Sarah

And, let's see in high school so I was I was homeschooled, technically up until high school, high school was a private school, like, type experience, but it was still very Christian. It was a once a week thing. I did most of my work at home, and the sex ed there that I remember was, I think we talked about menstruation.

00:21:27:00 - 00:21:37:15

Sarah

I do think we talked about that. I maybe remember seeing a diagram of a penis and like, you know, like a half, whatever they're called.

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:39:08

Sarah

You remember what the word is, but there's a word.

00:21:39:08 - 00:21:41:02

Sarah

For that where you see inside.

00:21:41:04 - 00:21:44:01

Luna

Yeah. Like the scientific diagrams that are, like, sliced open.

00:21:44:02 - 00:21:46:17

Sarah

Yeah, exactly. I think I remember.

00:21:46:17 - 00:21:52:15

Sarah

Seeing that and I remember there being messaging about,

00:21:52:17 - 00:21:54:02

Sarah

Basically.

00:21:54:04 - 00:21:58:20

Sarah

You'll know when you're married. You'll figure it out when you get married.

00:21:58:22 - 00:21:59:14

Sarah

Yeah.

00:21:59:15 - 00:22:26:01

Sarah

So a lot of that kind of messaging now, most of my because I was homeschooled most of my social life was within my church. I was very, very involved. And a lot of my friends went to public school. Some of my closest friends went to public school and had also just different, parenting environments and experiences and people who were, while still very conservative, more open about at least a basic sex education.

00:22:26:03 - 00:22:44:18

Sarah

And I used to be very, very afraid of asking questions. And so I didn't I just was I was one of those kids that just pretended to know what everyone was talking about. And nodded and laughed when it seemed like I was good at cuz like, laughed when people were supposed to laugh and nodded in agreement when everybody else was nodding in agreement.

00:22:44:18 - 00:22:45:14

Luna

I used to do that.

00:22:45:15 - 00:22:46:12

Sarah

But.

00:22:46:14 - 00:22:48:19

Sarah

I was sitting there just like gathering information.

00:22:48:23 - 00:22:49:15

Sarah

Like.

00:22:49:17 - 00:23:21:20

Sarah

Okay, what is that? What is okay? And I remember being in high school on some kind of youth group trip, and being a bunch of girls in a hotel room and somebody saying, oh, be careful not to have sex with a tampon in because there's not room for the penis. And I remember thinking. Okay. So it gets in there somehow.

00:23:21:22 - 00:23:22:15

Sarah

I remember.

00:23:22:17 - 00:23:25:05

Luna

So when I found that, I was like, but how.

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:33:12

Sarah

How could it? Oh, that was my next spot was the where, and it's not. It's like how how I did I mean, I've.

00:23:33:12 - 00:23:35:02

Sarah

Never seen one outside.

00:23:35:02 - 00:23:35:13

Sarah

Of.

00:23:35:15 - 00:23:37:18

Sarah

You know, I've never seen one. So like.

00:23:37:20 - 00:23:39:01

Sarah

I don't know how.

00:23:39:01 - 00:24:05:03

Sarah

That's supposed to happen. And it wasn't until God, I'm not sure when it, I went through a lot of, inner just, like, conflict over being a very sexual person, knowing that that was true for myself and not allowing myself to express that interest and not allowing myself even to investigate or be curious about my own interest.

00:24:05:03 - 00:24:05:10

Sarah

Yeah.

00:24:05:10 - 00:24:20:16

Luna

When did you realize you were a sexual like. Because. Because at first you don't even know what sex is. And like, I had all of these feelings that looking back, I'm like, oh, she was horny. But at the time I just like, had a lot of energy and curiosity and I didn't quite know what. And I was like, I want to touch everything I do.

00:24:20:16 - 00:24:22:05

Sarah

I don't know.

00:24:22:07 - 00:24:37:05

Sarah

I one of my very first memories, was having a conversation with my dad and one of my siblings, and I don't know what I don't know what we were talking about. Exactly. I just know that at some point, I said, and I had to have been.

00:24:37:06 - 00:24:38:09

Sarah

Oh, God, maybe.

00:24:38:11 - 00:25:07:17

Sarah

4 or 5. And I said, girls have a penis, too. It's just on the inside. And my dad shut that down. I was like, no, they don't. And I was like, yes, I do. He's like, no, they don't. And so that has been sort of that was a very formative memory for me. And now, of course, one of my favorite facts is that the clitoris is formed from the and the penis come from the same, same tissue, the same organized differently.

00:25:07:17 - 00:25:09:00

Sarah

Yeah. I.

00:25:09:00 - 00:25:42:23

Sarah

Love that so much. But there was something in me at a very early age that was connected to my body and then was repressed pretty severely for a very long time, and it was probably in my late teens, early 20s that I really started to think about how I felt around sex and like, starting to understand, okay, I still don't know the mechanics of sex, but I know that I can't stop thinking about what they might be.

00:25:43:04 - 00:25:59:10

Sarah

And like reading as a teenager, getting my cousin's old like, teen magazines and like, oh, I'm using these for collages. And like, I like reading, like the teen question of like, can you get pregnant from anal sex? And me being like, fuck, what's anal sex?

00:25:59:12 - 00:26:01:09

Sarah

I don't even know what that is. Yeah.

00:26:01:09 - 00:26:24:03

Sarah

And, I used to, you know, I used to get super aroused and not know what was happening. I would go and try on sexy clothes because that made me feel aroused. But I didn't know I was like, this feels like I'm not supposed to be doing this. But also I feel physically good and had a very complicated relationship with that.

00:26:24:05 - 00:26:33:10

Sarah

I didn't know girls could masturbate until I was in college. I think, and somebody else started talking about it, and I felt that I.

00:26:33:10 - 00:26:35:19

Sarah

Had this big.

00:26:35:19 - 00:26:48:22

Sarah

Burden of, oh my God, I am one of the rare women who has a strong sexual desire, and I have to carry this burden and not do anything about it.

00:26:49:00 - 00:26:50:09

Sarah

Oh, the message that is.

00:26:50:09 - 00:27:07:07

Luna

I mean, that's what happens when we don't talk to each other because I'm like, wait, you're horny to wait? All you guys are horny. Wait. Women actually really love novelty. Oh, interesting. Okay. Oh, we're horny as fuck. Oh, we get more turned on when people treat us well. Wild. Okay.

00:27:07:09 - 00:27:08:16

Sarah

Yeah, and that was the whole.

00:27:08:16 - 00:27:10:03

Sarah

I mean, that's one of the.

00:27:10:03 - 00:27:20:11

Sarah

Big pieces of purity culture messaging is that men aimed at people are shouldered with this burden of sexual desire, and they have to fight against it their whole lives.

00:27:20:14 - 00:27:21:10

Sarah

Women.

00:27:21:12 - 00:27:36:15

Sarah

A name that people like, oh, they don't care about it. They just have to make sure that the men are okay. And so hide your tits and like, don't let your bra strap show and like, all that kind of shit. And so it wasn't until college when other people.

00:27:36:15 - 00:27:38:09

Sarah

Who, while still.

00:27:38:11 - 00:27:44:19

Sarah

Practicing Christians who had more experience and had more.

00:27:44:21 - 00:27:45:21

Sarah

00:27:45:23 - 00:27:49:00

Sarah

Just different, different messaging, were like, oh, actually, yeah.

00:27:49:00 - 00:27:50:02

Sarah

I.

00:27:50:04 - 00:28:12:03

Sarah

Think about it all the time to I still don't feel safe talking about it. I was very much still on my own internal journey with like, okay, I guess this is hard for me and now I have to try to work against this. And that was my mindset really, until I hit 25 or 26 and I.

00:28:12:03 - 00:28:13:01

Sarah

Lived.

00:28:13:03 - 00:28:48:18

Sarah

Outside of my parents home for the first time, and I was the doing theater and feeling really good and fulfilled creatively and crossing a lot of milestones in my own career as an actor. And I remember sitting in the room of the house where I was staying, and I had been I'd started talking about sex with one of my closest friends in a very loaded heavy like, oh my God, what are you supposed to do as a Christian single person about how horny we are?

00:28:48:18 - 00:28:53:17

Sarah

Like, what are we supposed to do? Is masturbation? Okay, I don't know.

00:28:53:19 - 00:28:55:01

Sarah

And doing.

00:28:55:03 - 00:29:04:10

Sarah

Honestly while doing research into like different theologians and trying to find a way to make it okay for me to engage.

00:29:04:10 - 00:29:05:22

Sarah

With my own body.

00:29:06:00 - 00:29:36:00

Sarah

Yeah, and finding enough of a loophole like hearing a pastor say, as long as you aren't thinking about somebody else when you're doing it, then maybe it's okay. And. Yeah, and that's when I was like, you know what? Okay. It's at the bare minimum. This is my body. I need to know how it works. I need to know where things are, and I need to know in order to live my life, Christian or otherwise.

00:29:36:04 - 00:29:37:07

Sarah

How a.

00:29:37:07 - 00:29:54:22

Sarah

Penis works. Like how I need to know these things. These are basic life things, and I need to understand them. So at 26 years old, I'm like googling, all right. Just like, give me Wikipedia. Let me read how this fucking works. Because I don't know. I still don't know how a penis gets into a vagina. Like.

00:29:55:00 - 00:29:56:01

Sarah

I don't know.

00:29:56:03 - 00:30:28:21

Sarah

How would you actually happens? Like, how does all of this work? And that started a journey of, okay, now I know how my body works. This feels good. But that but somewhere, somewhere in that experience, I started to feel the guilt. Somewhere it went from educational to okay, well, now I know. So should I stop. And that that was a long experience too.

00:30:28:21 - 00:30:47:18

Sarah

And really, until I left Christianity. That I then allowed myself to really feel comfortable and safe and open to explore my own sexuality. Wow. And there's so much more I.

00:30:47:18 - 00:30:48:05

Sarah

Could say.

00:30:48:05 - 00:30:55:20

Luna

I was going to say. Yeah, start by when. When did that start happening for you? 30s. You said.

00:30:55:22 - 00:31:23:20

Sarah

That I started feeling free to explore. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I so I left conservatives the conservative version of Christianity in my 20s, but I still subscribe to the basic tenets of Christianity, just with a much more, politically liberal mindset up until 2020. So I was fully in my 30s, and it was through a series of experiences that that all really just crumbled.

00:31:23:20 - 00:31:37:06

Sarah

And yeah, the when I finally felt, okay, yeah, I don't know what I believe about God in the universe, but I know it's not that. What do we do? And the first thing on the list sex.

00:31:37:10 - 00:31:44:03

Sarah

Okay, we're okay, but, yeah, what do I do now? But that's when I.

00:31:44:03 - 00:31:50:14

Sarah

Really started to feel okay, I, I want to figure out what I want, and I want to go get it.

00:31:50:16 - 00:31:51:17

Sarah

00:31:51:19 - 00:32:02:22

Luna

That's powerful. Also thinking to what you were sharing in your college years and also now like all throughout I feel like one of the themes that I have been like wait, really?

00:32:03:00 - 00:32:04:02

Sarah

Whoa, whoa.

00:32:04:04 - 00:32:31:10

Luna

That the whole time throughout the last six years of sex stories is I'm like, so these humans, they say one thing and their behavior is completely sometimes different, but they don't even they don't even act like it or, you know, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Because like the level of like sometimes it's that, like unconscious disconnect, but sometimes it's just cognitive dissonance and someone may not even know it.

00:32:31:10 - 00:32:55:11

Luna

That's the part that I've been like struck because then I'm like, well, how am I supposed to positively communicate about everything when not everyone? It's not reasonable, right? Like it's people can only give so much consent. And like you said, sometimes I say yes to things because I'm excited and then it's a whole I get home and I'm like, I mean, for me, the power of my horniness is so powerful that I'm usually, like, really aligned with that intuition.

00:32:55:11 - 00:33:11:03

Luna

But I also that may have to do with my background. Okay. Where do you want to go from here? Do you want to get into sex stuff? Do you want to do more like background thoughts and feelings, like what feels juiciest or relevant around your learnings? I mean, we're definitely going to get to the physical parts of the learnings and the pleasure.

00:33:11:03 - 00:33:13:12

Luna

Yeah. What what do we need to know?

00:33:13:14 - 00:33:15:21

Sarah

Well, let me talk a little bit.

00:33:15:21 - 00:33:19:12

Sarah

About the beginnings of that, like joyful exploration, okay.

00:33:19:12 - 00:33:21:12

Sarah

And the fact that we were in.

00:33:21:12 - 00:33:28:10

Sarah

A pandemic and fully like March 2020 and I'm like, okay.

00:33:28:12 - 00:33:29:05

Sarah

Everyone, like.

00:33:29:05 - 00:33:30:19

Luna

Die, I need to have.

00:33:30:19 - 00:33:34:10

Sarah

Sex. Yeah.

00:33:34:12 - 00:33:48:13

Sarah

And also feeling a lot of that, like being the nerd and be like, okay, well, I guess maybe it's good that I have this. It's time to now just dive into research before I engage with another human in a way that feels safe to me in the context of it.

00:33:48:18 - 00:33:49:08

Sarah

Yeah.

00:33:49:10 - 00:33:55:17

Luna

Absolutely. And if I am doing math correctly, you were like pretty fresh in Los Angeles.

00:33:55:19 - 00:33:58:09

Sarah

I was I had been here nine months.

00:33:58:11 - 00:34:01:00

Sarah

Yeah.

00:34:01:02 - 00:34:05:11

Sarah

There was a lot of things happening, not just in the world, but inside of me.

00:34:05:13 - 00:34:06:13

Sarah

Yeah.

00:34:06:15 - 00:34:16:05

Sarah

And I, I at this point had started to learn how to talk to other people about sex. I started to make really, really wonderful friends.

00:34:16:07 - 00:34:17:03

Sarah

Who.

00:34:17:05 - 00:34:21:06

Sarah

Were so open about sex. And there where, how?

00:34:21:08 - 00:34:22:06

Sarah

Yeah.

00:34:22:08 - 00:34:25:06

Sarah

They're all screenwriters now.

00:34:25:08 - 00:34:27:16

Sarah

Okay. And, and.

00:34:27:16 - 00:34:47:13

Sarah

It was great. And we and I connected through a screenwriting group as an actor, and, these people just made me feel safe. And so before I even started to talk about my own experiences with sex, I did, again, a lot of, like, sitting and listening and, like, okay, there's no pressure here. They're cool talking about it amongst themselves.

00:34:47:13 - 00:35:31:19

Sarah

And oh my God, they're being so open. Actually, this could feel safe and just, you know, tiptoeing into those kinds of conversations and learning that it was okay, that I didn't have experience at that point. And then deciding, okay, how do I get experience? What do I need to do for myself? And that turned into following, you know, finding a lot of sex educators, on social media and engaging with them, doing lots of reading, figuring out how I could talk to other people about my lack of experience, lack, you know, trying to take away the negative connotation of that.

00:35:31:19 - 00:35:48:15

Sarah

But, the absence of experience and. Looking into sex toys, being like, okay, I'm not comfortable engaging with another person right now. Let's let's look into toys. Let's see what might feel good there.

00:35:48:15 - 00:35:51:10

Sarah

And at this point, first vibrator.

00:35:51:10 - 00:35:57:02

Luna

Yes, you were already masturbating, but you didn't have toys.

00:35:57:04 - 00:35:59:11

Sarah

I did not have toys, okay?

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:06:00

Sarah

And I honestly can't remember the first orgasm that I had. I wish that I did, because.

00:36:06:00 - 00:36:10:08

Luna

Me too, I can't. Yeah, same, I don't remember. No, no.

00:36:10:10 - 00:36:11:15

Sarah

I don't want to question.

00:36:11:15 - 00:36:13:00

Sarah

And I wish I had an answer, but I.

00:36:13:00 - 00:36:16:02

Sarah

Can't tell you. Yeah. And,

00:36:16:04 - 00:36:19:04

Sarah

I bought my first vibrator and I bought my first dildo.

00:36:19:06 - 00:36:22:12

Sarah

And, That's it.

00:36:22:14 - 00:36:42:18

Sarah

It's so funny to me. Now I'm up a pretty anxious person, and especially at that point, at that point, with all of the change that was happening, plus the pandemic, just it was a lot. And I remember you're like, all right, I'm going to try my seven inch filter that I bought myself. And I'm going to see how this I'm going to see how this works.

00:36:42:20 - 00:36:44:15

Sarah

Yeah.

00:36:44:17 - 00:37:01:01

Sarah

I was very impatient. And so I did not, like, give myself any real warm up arousal time and like, couldn't get it in and then was getting frustrated and then it was, it was hurt because I wasn't, you know, it wasn't ready.

00:37:01:03 - 00:37:01:15

Sarah

Yeah.

00:37:01:17 - 00:37:09:18

Sarah

And then there being like a little bit of blood. And I remember going to bed that night being like, I'm going to bleed out. I'm going to bleed out my sleep.

00:37:09:23 - 00:37:16:03

Sarah

I'm going to bleed out my sleep. And it's going to be because I did this. Oh my God. And having getting on the.

00:37:16:08 - 00:37:23:23

Sarah

You know, talking to 1 or 2 of my close friends who I felt safe enough to like, share that with and then be like.

00:37:24:01 - 00:37:26:20

Sarah

Well, it's probably not going to happen.

00:37:26:22 - 00:37:38:18

Sarah

And even then and like getting on Reddit and like reading other people's experiences and then, you know, not even 24 hours later being like, we know why that happened, we know why.

00:37:38:18 - 00:37:47:12

Luna

And but sometimes we don't know till we know. Sometimes we just need reassurance from a friend to feel okay. Sometimes you just need to get within and it's all okay.

00:37:47:13 - 00:37:49:00

Sarah

Well, yeah.

00:37:49:02 - 00:37:51:22

Sarah

So then, I honestly, I'm not sure.

00:37:51:22 - 00:37:53:03

Sarah

How this was.

00:37:53:06 - 00:38:08:23

Sarah

I guess maybe a full year later. So a year of, exploring, playing with my toys. Actually, it couldn't have been a year. Couldn't have been here because there's no way that I had that dildo for a full year without actually, like, fully using it.

00:38:09:02 - 00:38:12:13

Sarah

So an amount of time went, why wouldn't have been.

00:38:12:13 - 00:38:35:02

Sarah

A full year. And I know spring 2021 and I was in a kind of a shitty living situation. And I needed to get out of my apartment. I needed some space. So I took myself on a little staycation, got an Airbnb 15 minutes away from my apartment, and took myself on a little speculation and yes.

00:38:35:04 - 00:38:35:22

Sarah

Yeah.

00:38:36:00 - 00:38:49:18

Sarah

Yeah. And I like had I had also purchased some lingerie for myself, I had been playing with photography up to that point and feeling good about that. That's also something that started at a really young age.

00:38:49:20 - 00:38:51:08

Sarah

00:38:51:10 - 00:38:56:15

Sarah

So that's that's been a through line, and interest in erotic photography.

00:38:56:17 - 00:38:58:08

Sarah

Feel you. Yeah.

00:38:58:10 - 00:39:00:03

Sarah

And so.

00:39:00:05 - 00:39:01:02

Sarah

I.

00:39:01:04 - 00:39:24:20

Sarah

You know, I get groceries to make myself nice food and I take two days to just allow myself time and space and actually, like, oh, my God, I can use this dildo fully. Like, getting it all the way inside of me and, like, feeling so good and feeling so affirmed. And some of the things like, oh yeah, I was pretty sure I liked Deep penetration and.

00:39:24:20 - 00:39:26:00

Sarah

Now I know.

00:39:26:00 - 00:39:42:08

Sarah

And like just getting really in touch with that part of myself and I have I was at that point a very easy come. And so, and so many orgasms over that weekend and felt so good.

00:39:42:08 - 00:39:43:09

Sarah

And so I.

00:39:43:11 - 00:39:50:17

Sarah

Myself and like I was also sharing about it with 1 or 2 friends and just like it was such a.

00:39:50:17 - 00:39:52:06

Sarah

Healing, healing.

00:39:52:06 - 00:39:55:01

Sarah

Experience that I honestly need to recreate for myself, I.

00:39:55:01 - 00:39:56:14

Luna

Was going to say, yeah.

00:39:56:15 - 00:39:59:00

Sarah

Yeah. And then I end.

00:39:59:00 - 00:40:01:09

Sarah

Up like, you know, actually I think it's time to do that again.

00:40:01:09 - 00:40:04:17

Sarah

But yeah, yeah. And take it. And there was like, there.

00:40:04:17 - 00:40:22:20

Sarah

Was a lamp that had this dark red light bulb in it. And so putting on lingerie and like playing with the light and different moods and just like capturing myself in different ways. And it was, it was so good. It was so yummy. Oh so yummy.

00:40:22:22 - 00:40:25:02

Sarah

Wow. That's. Yeah.

00:40:25:02 - 00:40:44:01

Luna

Amazing. What a beautiful gift to give yourself. I've, I've done that in like small doses here and there. But literally as you were talking, I'm like, I need to get a move on these pleasure retreats because I haven't. I've done some like private ones, but not like the group ones bringing people. And I'm like, I don't know, are people going to want to come together and masturbate, come together and come together?

00:40:44:03 - 00:40:47:04

Luna

I know it's been done before.

00:40:47:06 - 00:40:48:04

Sarah

So.

00:40:48:06 - 00:41:09:15

Luna

Would it feel fun to talk about what you discovered about your orgasm? I heard you say that you were an easy come. Has that changed? Has it shifted? Is that like. I love noticing different types of orgasms? Because lately I'm not like, did I come? What a boring question. It's like, how did I come? Where am I in my current arousal cycle?

00:41:09:17 - 00:41:10:07

Sarah

00:41:10:09 - 00:41:29:09

Sarah

Yes, it is fun to talk about. I actually one of my favorite questions that came from a previous partner is what's your relationship to orgasm? And I try to ask that of most, if not all of my partners. Because it's just it's such a good conversation starter and I yes, I was in easy come for a long time.

00:41:29:09 - 00:41:46:18

Sarah

I did not need much time at all to have a tutorial orgasm and then pretty quickly learn like, okay, I like to have a couple 1 or 2 like clit orgasms, and then I want penetration and I think I used to be able to come sometimes just from penetration.

00:41:46:19 - 00:41:48:03

Sarah

00:41:48:05 - 00:42:16:01

Sarah

But it's been a long time since I've had that experience, and so memory's foggy. But definitely, I mean, a combined orgasm is my favorite kind of orgasm. So whether that's clit and penetration or, you know, clit penetration or like, vaginal penetration, you know, just all of it is my preference. And it has been a journey. I, went on antidepressants for a year, very recently.

00:42:16:01 - 00:42:25:11

Sarah

And that experience, took away a lot of the ease around orgasm. I was still able to, but it was a lot harder and.

00:42:25:13 - 00:42:26:16

Sarah

00:42:26:18 - 00:42:30:13

Sarah

Really dulled. They were not as big and explosive.

00:42:30:15 - 00:42:31:10

Sarah

They,

00:42:31:12 - 00:42:43:00

Sarah

And my libido went down. Now my libido is pretty high, so I feel like it went down to sort of a semi more normal place. But that wasn't what felt good for me. It wasn't my fault. Normal for me.

00:42:43:05 - 00:42:43:12

Sarah

Yeah.

00:42:43:12 - 00:42:55:20

Sarah

I am now one month off of the antidepressants, and, my libido is coming back and the orgasms are back, back, back. They are back. Congratulations.

00:42:55:20 - 00:42:57:21

Sarah

Yeah, you're.

00:42:57:23 - 00:43:07:12

Sarah

It was, it's it's so nice to have them back. Yeah. Because even though while I was on the antidepressants, I could get there, it was like, okay, once.

00:43:07:12 - 00:43:09:06

Sarah

And I just, like.

00:43:09:07 - 00:43:26:18

Sarah

Somebody recently described it to me in a way that feels so accurate. It was I'm really horny in my brain, but I don't want to do anything about it. And now I'm back to wanting to do something about it. Which feels just so it's. I feel so much more like myself. And I. Yeah, I love God.

00:43:26:18 - 00:43:51:23

Sarah

I love, I love that, like, deep. Give me a give me a cervix. Cervical orgasm. Like, I haven't had that very many times. And I don't know if I'm actually I've had very few orgasms with other partners because of the timeline of my experience with depression and going on antidepressants that coincide with my sex life ramping up.

00:43:52:01 - 00:43:53:01

Sarah

00:43:53:03 - 00:43:57:08

Sarah

Which is interesting, I guess, considering that I now just I just said my libido was way lower.

00:43:57:10 - 00:43:58:06

Sarah

But it was still.

00:43:58:06 - 00:44:07:10

Sarah

There and the desire to explore was still very strong. And so I was having more sex than I'd ever had in my life. But I wasn't having orgasms with partners.

00:44:07:12 - 00:44:25:23

Luna

That actually makes perfect sense to me in certain ways, because I am a high desire, high arousal person. And I still have days where like, I feel lazy and I've started to think of like, and I mean, the word lazy in a way of like, reclaiming. I don't actually believe in laziness. I believe in rest, and we all need it.

00:44:26:01 - 00:44:49:02

Luna

And so I'm using lazy here to mean like allowing another partner to nourish me, which it makes sense if you're horny up here, but you're like, I don't want to do anything about it, but you can, and you're willing to put in the effort to a person. Sometimes I need another person to get to that level of like erotic energy that I that I am not in the mood access alone or just can't on that certain day.

00:44:49:04 - 00:44:58:20

Luna

There's such different experiences to like. So you know, all, all valid. But it's just like so different. Wait, so. Okay. What? Yeah. Tell us about this partner exploration time.

00:44:58:22 - 00:45:15:12

Sarah

Oh my god. Yeah I because I started I had not dated very much prior to moving to LA. It was pretty limited experience there. And so in conjunction with my sexual exploration, it was exploring dating and like in LA.

00:45:15:14 - 00:45:22:18

Sarah

Dating in L.A., which is, oh, I don't know. I did not know.

00:45:22:19 - 00:45:44:10

Luna

Until anyone who was like, what are they maniacally laughing at? I'll tell my experience and then you can add on to it or tell yours. My experience and I have been now living in Los Angeles almost half my life. So I came out for college when I was 18 and 35. Now I it's taken me a minute to realize the level of like, who are you?

00:45:44:12 - 00:46:03:01

Luna

What can you do for me? Are you hard enough? Are you going to worship me? Are you going to feed my need for validation and my ego? There's like a mixture of that. And again, it's not the only thing out there. There are plenty of good things in that. But those are the little threads that I have found to be the most, like tricky and pokey.

00:46:03:01 - 00:46:21:16

Luna

And as a person that has a fuckton of skills, both practical and creative, it's taken me a minute to figure out, you know, how to guard myself, and how to value myself, you know, and and also, like, for me personally, I love, like, validating people. I'm like, oh, yeah, no, you are good. Especially if I think they're a little bit good.

00:46:21:16 - 00:46:39:12

Luna

So I fall into that that trap a lot with the narcissists that Los Angeles can magnetize, you know? And I recognize my part in that dance. And I am also doing life differently. So that's that's kind of like my, like, top level, certainly not nuanced. Like take what's it been like for.

00:46:39:12 - 00:46:39:21

Sarah

You.

00:46:40:03 - 00:46:43:00

Luna

Especially coming from the Pacific Northwest?

00:46:43:01 - 00:46:44:12

Sarah

Well.

00:46:44:13 - 00:46:45:02

Sarah

In some.

00:46:45:02 - 00:46:46:14

Sarah

Ways.

00:46:46:16 - 00:47:13:20

Sarah

It's good because I didn't have much to compare it to. Okay. So I didn't really I, I know now that a lot of it does come from the fact, from just being in Los Angeles, a lot of the difficulty that I've run into that it's not dissimilar to what you described. And like it has been tricky to find people that I actually connect with, for a lot of different reasons.

00:47:13:22 - 00:47:21:19

Sarah

And one of the, you know, being somebody who has been in the film industry and adjacent to it, I don't.

00:47:21:19 - 00:47:24:06

Sarah

Actually connect.

00:47:24:08 - 00:47:41:05

Sarah

Really well with people whose entire lives are that. And that's like, I don't have judgment for that. And and it's just not a good fit for me. So I am interested in a lot of things, and I'm interested in people who are also interested in a lot of things.

00:47:41:07 - 00:48:02:11

Luna

Totally relate. Yeah, I'm there and I'm here too. It's just it's filtered. And I think that's true in any big city or any place, especially now that the world is so niched down with the internet, like finding just basic common ground is, is the filtration piece that can make me too tired to online date. So and we're you we talked a little bit about online dating before we started recording.

00:48:02:11 - 00:48:04:17

Luna

But like you're meeting people that way.

00:48:04:19 - 00:48:07:19

Sarah

That's been almost exclusively my day.

00:48:07:19 - 00:48:11:11

Sarah

Wow. I bow down to you.

00:48:11:13 - 00:48:14:02

Sarah

It's been a lot and.

00:48:14:04 - 00:48:27:21

Sarah

It's been hard. And I am at a place now where I know what works for me and what feels good, and how much effort I'm willing to put in to the search.

00:48:27:23 - 00:48:33:13

Luna

What is it, and is this is the process you learned it in, right? Like, oh, but what else are you?

00:48:33:15 - 00:48:37:21

Sarah

Oh well, just like, no, you're great. I think.

00:48:37:23 - 00:48:49:14

Sarah

I am still willing to use online dating because I have had some really, really beautiful experiences and made some of my most, like precious.

00:48:49:14 - 00:48:51:17

Sarah

Friends from.

00:48:51:19 - 00:48:53:10

Sarah

Dating app dating like.

00:48:53:10 - 00:48:54:15

Sarah

Amazing.

00:48:54:17 - 00:49:16:16

Sarah

Yeah, and not is the result of a lot of work and a lot of, listening to my intuition and like my gut feelings. And, I have a very high bar with in terms of who I will even start a conversation with. And most of those conversations don't go anywhere. It's like, okay, yeah, no, we're moving on from that.

00:49:16:18 - 00:49:31:07

Sarah

Or I you know, I learned that I want to meet people pretty quickly. And that was a journey in and of itself, like took me a long time to get there. And now I'm like, okay, let's meet because I don't know anything until we sit across a table from each other or whatever. Go on.

00:49:31:07 - 00:49:37:07

Luna

I'm always like, my animal body has to smell your animal body before we can discuss anything else. Yeah.

00:49:37:09 - 00:49:38:13

Sarah

That thing.

00:49:38:16 - 00:50:03:20

Sarah

Something similar in the last like nine months where because I've had experiences where I think I'm really connecting with somebody because I do, I really value and appreciate written communication. That's something that's meaningful to me. And I used to rely really heavily on it. And then I had experiences where written communication was great, but that in person, yeah, your pheromones just don't like it just doesn't work out.

00:50:03:21 - 00:50:26:00

Sarah

It doesn't feel right. Yeah. And often the other person would feel confused and frustrated by that. So I now when a conversation is going well in like written form and it's the other person is often very excited and that that might have my own complicated relationship to other people's excitement about connecting with me.

00:50:26:02 - 00:50:26:19

Sarah

Yeah.

00:50:26:21 - 00:50:34:05

Sarah

That's something I get scared, not scared. I put the brakes on pretty fast. I'm like, you don't know me.

00:50:34:06 - 00:50:36:12

Sarah

Okay, how do you know you want.

00:50:36:12 - 00:50:37:07

Sarah

To do anything with.

00:50:37:07 - 00:50:38:15

Sarah

Me?

00:50:38:17 - 00:50:57:09

Sarah

So I've started saying things like, yeah, this is really fun. Hope. Fingers crossed our pheromones get along like, I'm excited to see how that works out in person. The mixed results, but it feels really good saying that because it feels truthful to what I'm feeling. Absolutely.

00:50:57:10 - 00:51:13:02

Luna

I and I don't want to give a green light when I'm not yet a green light, when I'm a hopeful green light. But it doesn't mean I. I've had some experiences lately of people trying to get me to commit to stuff ahead of time, like just on dating apps, and I'm like, I think you're looking for an escort website.

00:51:13:02 - 00:51:25:02

Luna

I thought, maybe I have this wrong, but if you're trying to get me to like, agree to certain activities on a certain time, that's a different negotiation somewhere else. And that's not what I'm here for. You know, like, okay.

00:51:25:02 - 00:51:28:03

Sarah

You, you know, so I'm like, oh.

00:51:28:05 - 00:51:45:15

Luna

Glad you're having a nice time. Okay. And I also want to get people on the phone or a FaceTime or in person as fast as possible, because I don't want to be free sexting and then get disappointed. Like, I'm like, no, I want to. I want to connect as a human first. So you figured that out? Sounds like how like what was the process like for you?

00:51:45:15 - 00:51:47:10

Luna

Oh, you just going to Ivan?

00:51:47:12 - 00:51:50:08

Sarah

Okay, I did just dive in.

00:51:50:10 - 00:51:52:12

Sarah

And.

00:51:52:14 - 00:52:16:08

Sarah

Just started seeing how it felt to be out in the world dating other people and starting to wreck. I started to recognize what safe connection feels like for me. It took a while. It took a long time. But then when it happened multiple times, I mean, like, oh, now I have evidence. Okay, that's what it feels like for me.

00:52:16:10 - 00:52:27:00

Sarah

It feels it's something that feels engaged and excited and somebody is curious and willing to be vulnerable and shows up. That really is.

00:52:27:00 - 00:52:36:15

Luna

Huge for me. I'm like, do your I love your good words. Those are a good backup. Do they match your actions actions first and then? I also need words and touches.

00:52:36:17 - 00:52:39:09

Sarah

Yeah, a lot of those.

00:52:39:11 - 00:52:44:10

Sarah

So I we I see.

00:52:44:12 - 00:52:46:02

Sarah

Yeah I started.

00:52:46:04 - 00:52:48:08

Sarah

Meeting people through.

00:52:48:10 - 00:52:56:05

Sarah

Dating apps and started being very open about the kinds of experiences that I wanted.

00:52:56:06 - 00:52:57:04

Sarah

00:52:57:06 - 00:53:01:07

Sarah

And early on that was very much I want to.

00:53:01:07 - 00:53:02:09

Sarah

Explore.

00:53:02:11 - 00:53:23:01

Sarah

Pretty broadly was just like, I want somebody that I connect with and feel safe with to explore in a casual, casual container that I know has so many meanings. But for me, casual is never without intention and care like it just maybe means we're not on some kind of, relationship ladder.

00:53:23:03 - 00:53:24:14

Luna

Absolutely.

00:53:24:16 - 00:53:28:21

Sarah

And that led to meeting.

00:53:28:23 - 00:53:30:05

Sarah

Some really.

00:53:30:05 - 00:54:01:13

Sarah

Really beautiful humans who were willing to show up for with me for where I was in my own experience. And, and ask me about what I wanted. And like, I had a, one of my first, not long term, but a connection that lasted several months. Experience with somebody who was it was them who was like, do you want to go over a yes or no, maybe less together and see, like what.

00:54:01:14 - 00:54:08:01

Sarah

We want to explore? Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, yes I do. Yes, let's do that.

00:54:08:03 - 00:54:43:16

Sarah

It's feeling so able to just with ease or relative ease, say, oh yeah, that's something I'm interested in or no, because the other person was setting that example for me and saying like, yeah, actually that's not my thing. Or I would be really interested in exploring this specifically with you and that felt really good and made me helped me feel more confident in having those kinds of conversations going forward.

00:54:43:18 - 00:54:44:22

Sarah

Yeah.

00:54:45:00 - 00:55:13:14

Sarah

And meeting people who, you know, it's funny, I, I've been listening to this show for so long, and I laugh every time somebody comes on and talks about how they grew up really religious and now they are a sex worker, or they're doing whatever, because it's, it's so it's so common. And I've met so many people who have that similar experience, and sometimes they're people that I really connect with.

00:55:13:14 - 00:55:42:05

Sarah

And other times or not, but just being that's also been a really healing journey. I've connected with 1 or 2 people who, grew up very similar to me, and, and the way that our own religious traumas have manifested is really similar. And, and being able to engage with them sexually and experience so much safety and healing, it's been really beautiful.

00:55:42:07 - 00:55:50:22

Sarah

It's been really, really beautiful. And I've also made friends who haven't been sexual partners at all through the app, people who I just connect with. And then.

00:55:51:00 - 00:55:52:00

Sarah

Yeah.

00:55:52:01 - 00:56:08:05

Sarah

Two of my closest friends now are people that I met on dating apps, one that I did date for like a month, and the other person is somebody that, you know, we were going to go on a date, and then she was like, you know, actually, I'm not feeling a date at the moment. Do you want to be friends?

00:56:08:07 - 00:56:09:10

Sarah

I was like, yeah.

00:56:09:12 - 00:56:22:06

Sarah

Yeah, I do want to be friends. And so I keep getting positive affirmations through the process of app dating. And I know that that it's not everyone's experience.

00:56:22:08 - 00:56:22:17

Sarah

No.

00:56:22:17 - 00:56:24:15

Luna

But in some people that's amazing. Yeah.

00:56:24:15 - 00:56:31:04

Sarah

And yeah. And it's okay that like.

00:56:31:06 - 00:56:44:08

Sarah

It's up to each of us to decide how much energy we want to put into something like that. And it does take so much energy. And so I don't want to like I want to recognize that it's stupid hard.

00:56:44:10 - 00:56:44:18

Sarah

Yeah, yeah.

00:56:44:23 - 00:56:49:12

Sarah

And I it's been a space. It's not good for me to explore.

00:56:49:14 - 00:57:12:00

Luna

Well, I want to highlight the good attitude that you're bringing to the process. Right? The willingness to allow imperfection, the willingness to see who those people are, the, you know, the willingness to be like, yeah, actually, friends, let's explore that. Let's see what's actually present here, because I certainly know that I've shown up to the apps before with the like, I'm busy.

00:57:12:00 - 00:57:28:13

Luna

Maybe I'm I'm guarded. I'm, you know, I, I get inundated with a lot of attention I don't want. And so anytime I get a little bit of that there, then my amygdala is like my I'll destroy you, you know? So it's like, I certainly have brought the bad vibes to dating apps in the past, and I have my own, you know, journey with that.

00:57:28:13 - 00:57:30:22

Luna

But I think I know a lot of people.

00:57:30:22 - 00:57:31:23

Sarah

Who.

00:57:32:01 - 00:57:55:23

Luna

It has worked really well for them and for myself. I know that one of the ongoing life lessons for me is filtration. Right. And it sounds like you have gotten really clear on your values and your needs and your desires. And in this, looking through what sounds like a very specific lens of like, I'm at this place in my life right now, are you here to join me for this part of the journey?

00:57:56:01 - 00:58:06:13

Luna

You've gotten lots of yeses, and it also sounds like, we haven't talked about this yet, but like, when did your queerness start presenting itself to you? Like, what's that part been like for you?

00:58:06:15 - 00:58:31:09

Sarah

That has been that is, I mean, as everything is like constantly changing and growing because I was I was not able to notice my own queerness genuinely until I left Christianity as a whole behind. And now I'm in a space where I'm like, looking back.

00:58:31:12 - 00:58:37:07

Sarah

I mean, like, oh, oh, the queer.

00:58:37:08 - 00:58:38:14

Luna

Girl gasp.

00:58:38:16 - 00:58:41:06

Sarah

Oh!

00:58:41:08 - 00:58:44:02

Luna

They don't, oh want to make out with their girlfriends.

00:58:44:04 - 00:58:47:21

Sarah

Oh, you know all actually because being like what would.

00:58:47:21 - 00:58:49:23

Sarah

Happen if I come do that right now.

00:58:50:01 - 00:58:54:07

Sarah

I.

00:58:54:09 - 00:58:57:02

Sarah

And so that's actually been very fun.

00:58:57:04 - 00:58:59:05

Sarah

I feel.

00:58:59:07 - 00:59:15:21

Sarah

I feel lucky that that experience that it's been fun, that it's been this, gentle awakening. This as soon as all the rules and restrictions that I had lived under were gone, it was like, oh.

00:59:15:23 - 00:59:19:19

Sarah

Oh, I think this is part of who I am.

00:59:19:21 - 00:59:31:22

Sarah

You know, there was heaviness in like, saying that out loud for the first couple of times, but then very quickly it just became like, oh yeah, no, that's just part of who I am. And I have.

00:59:31:22 - 00:59:32:11

Sarah

Moved.

00:59:32:14 - 00:59:37:14

Sarah

More slowly in exploring sex, like queer sex.

00:59:37:14 - 00:59:38:17

Sarah

Like, that's.

00:59:38:19 - 01:00:00:12

Sarah

Been something that I have taken more time with. I think because I've not processed a lot of my own trauma around queerness and, I'm very conscious of how I bring other people into that process.

01:00:00:14 - 01:00:02:18

Sarah

And.

01:00:02:20 - 01:00:13:05

Sarah

It's been fun. It's been fun. It's been a good like, I remember the first time I turned one of my dating apps on for women, and I was like, oh.

01:00:13:06 - 01:00:27:19

Sarah

I'm doing it. What? Oh, she's here. Everybody. She's here. Did you say, what did you say? I totally get that. I totally get that. I'm a real good mom. I love you, queer.

01:00:27:21 - 01:00:36:09

Sarah

And, like, going on my first dates with women and. Yeah, non-binary people and.

01:00:36:11 - 01:00:36:22

Sarah

Just being.

01:00:36:22 - 01:01:01:13

Sarah

I mean, I'm intentional about all of it, but it was it's it is something still that I am slower with. In a way that does feel good, like it's something that, Yeah, it just the way I'm going about it feels really good. And I have let's see. I ate pussy for the first time this year.

01:01:01:19 - 01:01:04:04

Luna

So how was it for you?

01:01:04:06 - 01:01:07:11

Sarah

So good. It was so good. And I had had.

01:01:07:13 - 01:01:08:08

Sarah

Sex with.

01:01:08:08 - 01:01:09:09

Sarah

01:01:09:11 - 01:01:12:18

Sarah

A woman before, but that was not a part of the experience.

01:01:12:18 - 01:01:14:19

Sarah

And,

01:01:14:21 - 01:01:25:18

Sarah

So it and it had been a couple, like a year or two since that first experience to when I ate pussy for the first time in a threesome.

01:01:25:20 - 01:01:27:15

Sarah

Oh.