listen now

39 white Jewish cis male, queer, bisexual, polyamorous, submissive top switch, married, writer, creator, Los Angeles-based, into: Dominant women, male masturbation parties, group sex, cum, squirting, sauna sex, outdoor sex, bathroom sex, stand-up comedy, storytelling, political art

🔗 ROBERT LINKS | @robertbrookscohen / @twobiguys / linktr.ee/robertbcohen

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00:00:00:02 - 00:00:19:22

Luna

And our guest today is a 39 year old bisexual, queer, white, Jewish cis man who is currently polyamorous, married to a trans woman he has been with for five years. He is also dating a few other people and hooking up with lots more. He is more submissive and more of a top, but can and does enjoy switching it up.

00:00:19:22 - 00:00:24:16

Luna

Sometimes he's into dominant women, male masturbation parties and circle jerks.

00:00:24:16 - 00:00:29:12

Luna

Which I just love. I just, I just hear all the details of he.

00:00:29:12 - 00:00:52:11

Luna

Has a thing for group sex and mixed gender sex parties, preferring queer and trans friendly spaces, which I totally get. He loves cum, has a kink for squirting, and is into public sex saunas, bathrooms and the great outdoors. A writer and creator, mostly in mainstream TV on shows you've definitely heard of, you can go IMDb him. In 2019, he created a podcast, Two Bi Guys, which he's still going strong today.

00:00:52:12 - 00:01:04:18

Luna

Go listen wherever you get your podcasts. And in 2023 published his first book, Bisexual Married Men Stories of Relationships, Acceptance and Authenticity an Oral history slash memoir.

00:01:04:20 - 00:01:06:18

Luna

I need to read that. I need to read it.

00:01:06:20 - 00:01:17:08

Luna

Not sex wise. He is into stand up comedy, storytelling and affecting political change through art. Originally from New York and currently living in L.A.. Welcome, Rob Cohen.

00:01:17:10 - 00:01:24:06

Rob

Thank you. So great to be here. I'm excited to chat about all that stuff you talked about. I am so excited.

00:01:24:06 - 00:01:39:03

Luna

But first I like to get a baseline. So could you please tell us if you had to rate yourself today, in this moment on a sexual shame meter where ten is the most full of shame and zero is like, show what? Where do you fall today? Right now?

00:01:39:05 - 00:02:07:17

Rob

I think it's pretty low. I don't think I could say it's a zero because stuff sometimes comes up and there's still a few things that I don't share with everyone. Yeah, yeah, but it's probably like a one because I really have done a lot of work to get rid of that shame. And having my podcast has helped me just like start talking about stuff.

00:02:07:19 - 00:02:21:04

Rob

And once it was out there, like, really the shame really disappeared because it's like, oh, I just told everyone. So like, who cares what anyone thinks? So it's it's probably a one. I fucking.

00:02:21:04 - 00:02:31:21

Luna

Love that. Will you give us a little, like, shame, a coaster overview of your life? Like, when has it squiggle there? Loop de looped up, down and around. Or maybe just the spaces where it's like you still get squiggly because I too.

00:02:31:21 - 00:02:32:10

Rob

Yeah.

00:02:32:12 - 00:02:35:17

Luna

I sit low, but then sometimes I'm like.

00:02:35:18 - 00:03:08:01

Rob

Right, that's true. There are definitely times where it feels higher. And that's a good question because it has been really high at other times in my life. Like it's not. It's only been a one pretty recently. And, you know, probably before I came out as bi, it was that was when it was the highest. Like I realized that I was bi or started exploring those thoughts in my late 20s and then started exploring actual sex with men.

00:03:08:03 - 00:03:45:05

Rob

And so I would say in my mid 20s, like it was probably 8 or 9, like I knew I had these queer thoughts and desire for men in addition to women, but I really was not comfortable with that at all. And then it was the same with like half the stuff you just read in in the intro. Like, I couldn't even approach getting comfortable with those things until I just addressed the shame about having queer desire and having thoughts about men like that was nothing else could get addressed until that did.

00:03:45:05 - 00:04:11:02

Rob

And so it was really high then. And then I explored and it definitely dropped a bit once I accepted it for myself. But I still had a lot of shame about telling other people and talking about it, and especially like, because I'm bi and still wanted to date women and felt at the time more romantically attracted to women.

00:04:11:02 - 00:04:46:04

Rob

And I was really scared that coming out as bi would cut off that avenue and I and that women wouldn't want to date me anymore. So there was a lot of residual shame there, and I think that still bubbles up. I think the time now I experience the most shame today are in spaces or with people like with straight cis women who, whether it's true or not, who I perceive to have a bias against bisexuality or who I perceive might have homophobia, internalized homophobia.

00:04:46:04 - 00:05:12:09

Rob

So sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But, that's probably when the shame comes up the most is with, like, cis women. Oh, wow. Okay, I totally hear that. Yeah. And not all, you know, like, once I talk through that and get to know someone and share more, if they're still into me, then that shame is dissipated. But yeah, but that's where it shows up.

00:05:12:11 - 00:05:17:20

Luna

That I totally have my own version of that in many different ways. And sometimes I'm just like.

00:05:17:22 - 00:05:20:06

Rob

Oh no, I'm too sexy for this stranger.

00:05:20:06 - 00:05:36:14

Luna

This stranger doesn't know anything about House. Like what a pervert I am. And if I tell them, then bad things are going to happen, you know? And sometimes it's like, I mean, nothing really bad ever happens. It's just like, yeah, I totally relate to the discomfort of the unknown or the fear of like, how is this person going to receive me?

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:41:09

Luna

Am I going to get another like response? You know, and it's that is that is squiggly.

00:05:41:11 - 00:06:13:06

Rob

Right, right. Well, and one of the things I got to is, which is really, really hard to get to for me and for I think for other people is like, if they really don't like it and I'm being authentically myself, then that's good to know. And this was not going to be a good fit. Yeah. And I see so much and I felt it of like, I want to date those people, but now I'm now I look back at it and it's like, if they're not into me and who I am, why do I want to date those people?

00:06:13:06 - 00:06:17:19

Rob

Like, it's such a good filter now once you get comfortable with yourself.

00:06:17:21 - 00:06:35:13

Luna

I was just going to say that it is part of the filtration process, and I still have to actively remind myself of that instead of trying to control or teach someone when it's not my job to teach them, especially if I don't want to because I'm dating them. And I don't want to do that for free because that's boring and slow for me.

00:06:35:13 - 00:06:43:19

Luna

You know, it's it's just part of the process. And I think, you know, there are so many narratives that I have absorbed through the general culture of, like.

00:06:43:21 - 00:06:45:07

Rob

I don't want to be bad and wrong.

00:06:45:07 - 00:07:02:14

Luna

And so in order to avoid that, everyone has to like me, you know, and it's just not that's just not the case. But I still have those kind of knee jerk reactions. So I feel you. I would love to hear what you feel like. You are the best at sex wise. And how did you get to be so good?

00:07:02:16 - 00:07:05:15

Rob

Oh God, that's a good question.

00:07:05:17 - 00:07:20:19

Luna

And I know there's no really such like I'm a polyamorous person in all ways. And whenever people ask me favorites questions, I give like 6 to 12 answers. So like, it's just a feeling in the moment, but like or what's the most fun or what likes you what? But like really what are you the best at.

00:07:20:21 - 00:07:49:08

Rob

Interesting I just I so funny I've actually like never thought of of it as like I've never reflected on that. What am I the best? I mean, I think that I am really a to and to other people and what they're thinking or feeling or what turns them on. I mean, like my the thing that turns me on the most is seeing someone else who's turned on or doing something that turns them on.

00:07:49:08 - 00:08:19:12

Rob

And so, like, I think I'm good in that way. Like servicing someone or asking, like, I love, I love, love, love people who tell me what they like and what they're into. And then going with that, that's not actually something I'm good at. It's just something I'm like, aware of. But I, I guess maybe I'm good at asking and putting that out in the open.

00:08:19:15 - 00:08:24:15

Rob

I'm less good at sharing what I want and what I like. Well, it's still a question.

00:08:24:17 - 00:08:37:02

Luna

It's a huge, big question because like, what do you like and like right now, in this moment, do you want to see my bucket list of 809 hundred things? And then I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, I don't know. You know, it's it's it's we're changeable creatures, especially when you like so much stuff.

00:08:37:04 - 00:08:57:20

Rob

Yeah, yeah. But I so I guess like to as I'm processing there's in the moment. One of my strengths is like being open and upfront about stuff like that's my favorite kind of sex is when you've talked about it before and you know, you know a lot about what each person likes and what you want to explore. That turns me on.

00:08:57:20 - 00:09:18:17

Rob

I know it's for some people that takes away excitement or sexiness. For me, it's the opposite. It adds excitement and sexiness. And when I go in to something not sure of what is going to happen, it can be fun, but it's often comes with doubts and thoughts in my head of like, is this good? Is this what they want?

00:09:18:19 - 00:09:25:06

Rob

And that can sometimes trip me up. So I really like the openness. I'm putting it all on the.

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:42:05

Luna

Table that I'm the same way I really, you know, and I, I do notice patterns with people who prefer not talking as much ahead of time. Tend to be the people that I will like. I mean, at a sex party, they like more stranger play and they just want to dive right in. And maybe like the cover of the night needs to be there because that's the wild, exciting part of it.

00:09:42:05 - 00:09:58:16

Luna

And I'm a little bit more like, I want to make sure that tomorrow when you wake up, you still wanted to fuck me, and you remember what happened. Like, I like the thoughtful lead up. And for me also, the talking about it creates so much anticipation that's like yummy and turn on. And it doesn't mean we have to do everything we talked about.

00:09:58:16 - 00:10:08:20

Luna

It's just like, almost like designing a menu and then going to the restaurant, or maybe just straight to the kitchen, like nibbling on whatever. We feel inspired to share that night, you know.

00:10:08:21 - 00:10:32:08

Rob

Exactly, exactly. I had a threesome a couple months ago where we, the three of us, spent an hour talking about what we would want to try, what we might want to try but didn't have to try. Like what? What arouses us and turns us on. And then and then we went to the bedroom. And I loved that so much, more than just going to the bedroom.

00:10:32:08 - 00:10:48:09

Rob

And we didn't do everything we talked about. But I knew that. I knew what they both liked. I knew they knew what I was interested in, and we ended up just exploring so many great things. Because of that context. It was great. Yeah.

00:10:48:11 - 00:11:07:03

Luna

I love that. Oh, this is a question that could be very specific for you, but maybe it's annoying. You can tell me, do you feel like it's a similar skill that you are using? Like the creativity, the creativity that is necessary or required in the sexual session? For me, I'm like, that's a lot like writing. Like it's like when I'm in the flow.

00:11:07:03 - 00:11:17:20

Luna

Especially you have experience, I think in writers rooms. Like, do you experience a parallel there or do you ever catch yourself using your writerly skills to, like, craft a scene, even if you're not really thinking of it that way?

00:11:17:22 - 00:11:45:09

Rob

That's fascinating, because I also never thought about that, but absolutely. I mean, that makes perfect sense to me that like, yeah, you're taking these ingredients and then you're kind of writing a little story together and I like. Yeah, right. And sometimes you gotta talk it out to figure out, like, what is that narrative going to be? And why do we want to get this out of, you know, what do you want to get out of it?

00:11:45:09 - 00:12:03:16

Rob

And okay, if that's what you're into, would you want to try this? Like, can we do a role play or like play a game or something like that? I think a little story involved in sex is really kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:12:03:18 - 00:12:23:01

Luna

I love that, you know, and I also have just started to notice that I am really oftentimes most drawn to people who do like to express with words, whether they're actual writers for work or they are lawyers or just people who like to read a lot. Like, because I am such an explicit communicator, the people that need me to be like.

00:12:23:03 - 00:12:25:11

Rob

00:12:25:14 - 00:12:46:04

Luna

I tend to feel less connected to. But the people who can again be like you said, this word, what does that mean to you. What does that feeling feel like or what has it felt like or you know like that's that's where I tend to feel the most, connected and held. Okay. Would you take us through your personal sex ed timeline?

00:12:46:04 - 00:13:01:02

Luna

Like, how did you learn about sex, maybe starting from when you first heard about it? Like, what were the formative pieces? You know, if you give us every detail of your whole life, but like, what are the parts that made Rob Rob sex wise? We got a little bit of info about your 20s and kind of that seeking time.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:10:09

Luna

But, what were what were your formative experiences like? Did you get a sex talk, like early experiences with partners? Take us wherever feels relevant.

00:13:10:11 - 00:13:48:06

Rob

Interesting. Great questions. I like this podcast. I remember a brief sex talk with my dad before some kind of summer program, maybe, or maybe I forgot when, but it was mostly about, like, using condoms and, like, being safe and didn't really have much of an impact on me in either direction. It just felt kind of awkward and a little, a little late, maybe, like, I was like, you know, I don't even remember, but I would guess, I would guess it was sometime in high school, like maybe 15.

00:13:48:07 - 00:14:11:06

Rob

And I was like, I already know about condoms. Like, okay, thank you. And I wasn't having I wasn't having sex at the time. So I was like, hey, I already know this and it's irrelevant at the moment. But okay, the actual important things, I remember growing up just thinking they're straight and gay and everyone around me was straight.

00:14:11:08 - 00:14:20:21

Rob

And being gay is not good. That's what I thought. And I had a lot of internalized homophobia for a long time. I ran from.

00:14:20:21 - 00:14:22:19

Luna

The city, parts of New York. Sorry. Where are you from?

00:14:22:19 - 00:14:46:19

Rob

The Westchester. Westchester? There. So, like a half hour outside the city, but like a suburb, very straight area. In hindsight, looking back, very few people out, even even later in high school, very few people out as gay. And and actually many have come out since either as gay or bi, who I was really good friends with and none of us knew.

00:14:46:19 - 00:15:07:23

Rob

And it's like, oh, no wonder we were such good friends. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. But I did have a lot of I mean, I had a lot of friends where like, hooking up. Was this, like, you know, you're checking off boxes or it was a a status symbol, or, like, it was cool to to hook up with women.

00:15:08:01 - 00:15:37:01

Rob

And so that was sort of a lot of the context where I started that was like it gave you social clout among guys. But at the same time, I, I always had a lot of female friends, I think, like, I remember that in high school being, like, having more female friends than most guys and just friends like a lot of women wanted to be my friend, even though not that many wanted to date me.

00:15:37:01 - 00:16:02:12

Rob

So I didn't feel that like sexy back then. I just felt like nice, you know, nice guy, a good friend, but I didn't feel super sexy. That said, I had, you know, a girlfriend girlfriend in fifth grade. We didn't do anything but go out for ice cream. But that was my first girlfriend. I dated that same woman again at the end of high school.

00:16:02:14 - 00:16:23:16

Rob

You, we went to the prom together. She's the first person I explored oral sex with. In between that, I had a girlfriend in seventh grade. That was my first kiss. Seventh grade. And then I didn't like. I mean, virginity is, like a stupid thing to say.

00:16:23:16 - 00:16:26:12

Luna

Sexual debut, partnered sexual debut.

00:16:26:13 - 00:16:54:11

Rob

I mean, the first intercourse was my senior year of college, so I was exploring a lot of sex in college with with different people without intercourse and exploring other kinds of things. But, but I felt at the time, like everyone else was having sex and I wasn't. And I felt kind of weird about that. And like, I, you know, I really didn't feel sexy, and I thought I was doing something wrong or like, what's going on?

00:16:54:13 - 00:17:19:00

Rob

But then finally that happened and it was good, and, everything was fine. And like, the other thing I can think about in those years, like high school, college, and a little bit beyond was like, because I was locked into this idea of straightness and hadn't yet confronted my other feelings, which were there but were very buried.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:47:04

Rob

I felt the, the, patriarchy and overwhelming me in all relationships and sex. Like, I felt like I was supposed to be the dominant one in relationships and in sex. And most of the people I dated reinforced that, like, I dated women who wanted me to be the dominant one. And so that was sort of the role I fell in to both relationships and sex.

00:17:47:06 - 00:18:14:00

Rob

And looking back, I really didn't like that. I didn't I don't mind now being dominant if we've talked about that. And that's what someone wants. And I know and there's a lot of context, but I really didn't like in hindsight being in that role by default. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. But that led to certain relationships kind of falling apart because I wasn't comfortable in them.

00:18:14:06 - 00:18:41:18

Rob

And sometimes sex to be not good. And I would have performance anxiety because I was in that role and I didn't want to be in that role. But I didn't understand that. And it would it would lock me up sexually. And I had a lot of performance anxiety when I was like sort of pressured into that role. And I think that's why now I prefer to be more submissive than to be dominant.

00:18:41:18 - 00:19:04:17

Rob

And I can switch and it depends on the partner, but I really enjoy not having to make the decisions, not having to guide sex all by myself, doing something that somebody else is into and following their lead. Yeah, all of those things really turn me on now, I think, because I wasn't able to do that for so many years.

00:19:04:19 - 00:19:13:05

Luna

That makes total sense. It's a lot of sense. What about. But what about when did you start exploring your own body or by yourself?

00:19:13:06 - 00:19:39:17

Rob

Oh. Good question. I forgot about that part. I, I used to masturbate with, like, a pillow and this blanket I had, like, a special blanket, and I would, like, hump the blanket, and I did not know what I was doing. Yeah, like, I remember getting it. So I was doing that probably from age five or 6 or 7 up till, I don't know, 11, 12.

00:19:39:19 - 00:20:07:12

Rob

And when I started to learn and like school or from friends what masturbation was, I had this realization, oh, I have been doing that, and I didn't know I was doing that, and I probably wasn't even coming at at the beginning. But at a certain point then I, you know, I started. And so that was for years, my experience of, of self-pleasure was like humping a pillow, knowing it felt good but not understanding what I was doing.

00:20:07:14 - 00:20:08:07

Rob

Totally.

00:20:08:11 - 00:20:12:06

Luna

Have you humped any pillows lately, or is that something that's fallen by the wayside?

00:20:12:08 - 00:20:38:18

Rob

It kind of. It's kind of fallen by the wayside. But, you know, it's just that sometimes that sensation of something between my legs, like a pillow or another person's leg or body like that, that brings back, like, good, you know, pleasant, pleasurable feelings. So I don't like, intentionally do that anymore, but, but yeah, it does sometimes happen.

00:20:38:18 - 00:21:04:11

Rob

And it feels good about that. I mean, I guess I should also explain exploring with men, which didn't happen until later, but is a big part of my sexual journey, which was like, so, so in my I only dated women until my late 20s. In my mid 20s, I started watching gay porn. I had kind of had those thoughts and resisted it for a while.

00:21:04:13 - 00:21:31:12

Rob

But eventually I was like, you know, it doesn't make me go to watch this. I'm not doing anything. Let me just watch it. That was like step one. And then after a while of watching that, I was like, you know, it might mean something that I'm enjoying watching this and like it might be something I actually do want to try and and the porn that I was watching mostly was gay porn featuring straight identified men.

00:21:31:14 - 00:21:57:12

Rob

So there were two kinds of versions of it. One was like hazing porn. Yeah. So it's like to get into the fraternity, you have to do gay stuff and then you get it. But everyone's straight. Straight. And the other was gay for pay, where it's like, if you to do this together, we'll pay you $500. And I, I don't know, you know, at the time, I didn't understand why this was what I was gravitating to.

00:21:57:17 - 00:22:23:07

Rob

Like, I wasn't watching two gay guys fucking each other. I wasn't into that. And I think I in hindsight, I was into it because it exploring that porn allowed me to explore queer sex while maintaining a straight identity myself. I was like, if those guys can be straight and do that well, then I can watch it and still be straight.

00:22:23:09 - 00:22:49:03

Rob

And so that that was my thought process at the time. And then just basically at age 29, the dam broke. And I remember thinking, I know I'm into this and I don't and I don't want to turn 30 without exploring it, and maybe I'll like it or maybe I won't, but if I don't explore it, I'll never know.

00:22:49:05 - 00:23:05:17

Rob

And so at 29 was when I started exploring it, and I basically got on gay apps and websites and received non reciprocal blowjobs. Have you heard of that show. No.

00:23:05:19 - 00:23:12:04

Luna

Yes. But I don't think anyone has called them non reciprocal blowjobs. So dudes were blowing you.

00:23:12:06 - 00:23:33:20

Rob

Yeah. And people would say like no Recep like this is sort of code word that I gravitated towards because I didn't want to suck a dick. I didn't even want to kiss a guy. To me, those that was too gay. Okay? But I was like, well, I like blowjobs, and it's kind of hard to get blowjobs with women I'm dating.

00:23:33:20 - 00:23:57:07

Rob

So like, I'll just do that and get a blowjob and go home. And basically I found that I enjoyed that my I didn't explode everything was fine. And the real feeling afterwards was, oh, I'm the same person. Like nothing's changed. I imagined, like, if I try that now, I'm going to be gay, and now I'm not going to like women.

00:23:57:09 - 00:24:22:22

Rob

And what I found was I liked doing that, but nothing else changed. Yeah, I still felt like me and I still had the same other attractions to women that I had always had, and that really that was a huge step. And then it was still step by step after that. But that kind of opened the door to, to me being okay to explore more, more and more and more.

00:24:22:22 - 00:24:23:21

Rob

Yeah, yeah.

00:24:23:23 - 00:24:44:08

Luna

I hear that from by dudes that I talked to her by guys that I know of. Like there just wasn't necessarily an example because there's such a stigma or like this idea that, like, it's just a pipeline. Being a big guy is a pipeline to gay, and it's a one directional thing and it's like, no, there's lots of us weirdos out there.

00:24:44:08 - 00:24:49:00

Luna

And also when you have a party full of them, it's really hot.

00:24:49:02 - 00:24:50:18

Rob

So,

00:24:50:20 - 00:24:55:14

Luna

Okay, so those were your first steps in like dabbling. When, when do you feel like you like.

00:24:55:16 - 00:24:56:10

Rob

Were.

00:24:56:12 - 00:25:03:00

Luna

Or do you even feel? I feel like now you're a fully self expressed biker. You have a podcast, you have all of you written a book like.

00:25:03:00 - 00:25:04:01

Rob

You.

00:25:04:03 - 00:25:08:04

Luna

And then. Yeah. And then when do we get to Circle Jerks?

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:17:06

Rob

I mean, I feel pretty fully expressed at the moment. I can't say like that. There are never hang ups that come up, or for sure, but when.

00:25:17:11 - 00:25:25:21

Luna

When did you start to, like, embrace like. Yeah, bye. This is my, you know, what was that like for you internally and externally.

00:25:25:23 - 00:26:00:16

Rob

Yeah. So I mean I explored sex with men for probably about two years before I came out. So I was obviously coming out to all the guys I was hooking up with. Yeah. And in hindsight, that was good practice to start talking about it because because they, a lot of them would assume I was gay and I got practice, you know, getting confident in my bisexuality and explaining to them, no, like I am really into this, but I'm also into women and and it and that was great practice.

00:26:00:18 - 00:26:44:15

Rob

But I guess really the fully the full self-actualization was after coming out and because of coming out, because in those two years I was also still dating women, and I wasn't telling them about that, and I wasn't showing up authentically. And, and I wasn't telling them we were monogamous. I wasn't cheating on them, but I basically never allowed myself to get too deep into relationships with women, because on some level, I knew I couldn't yet talk about this part, and I didn't want to be in a deep, monogamous relationship with someone without telling them that.

00:26:44:17 - 00:27:06:16

Rob

So I was kind of stuck in that way, and I had a lot of three month relationships with women where as soon as it started to get to the point of like, what is this? Should we be exclusive? That was when I bailed. Okay. Because I because I wasn't ready to talk about it and I didn't want to lie, so I just I was out.

00:27:06:18 - 00:27:32:07

Rob

So once I did start coming out, yeah. It really things really started to click into place. And yeah, there were some women, like we said, who then didn't want to date me. I had many multiple experiences of coming out to women and getting bad reactions or never hearing from them again after that day. It or you know, that that was difficult.

00:27:32:09 - 00:28:04:07

Rob

Yeah. But it also helped me work through that and process it and come to the belief that this is a good filter and that if I were hiding this to be with those women, it would not work out in the long run. Like, it's much better to know this now than to to wait until later. So yeah, I guess it's been a process since then to of of shedding the performance anxiety and the expectations of sex and getting comfortable with what I like and the submissiveness and other kinks.

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:08:13

Rob

But yeah, it really started with coming out as my mom.

00:28:08:19 - 00:28:20:09

Luna

And then how about how did the non-monogamous stuff unfold for you? Was it is it part because I know not every bisexual person is non-monogamous, but I'm like, I personally am like.

00:28:20:11 - 00:29:04:09

Rob

But I don't want to have to click one thing forever, right? Right. I mean, right, technically they're not the same thing and many people are monogamous again. But for me it was intertwined. And for me it's really happened around the same time. And I think what happened was once I accepted my bisexuality and started coming out, I, you know, breaking out of that box, the straight box and, and bucking convention in such a big way as that, it then really allowed me to look at monogamy in a new way and to really think, is this what I want either.

00:29:04:11 - 00:29:24:09

Rob

And at that time, I really wanted to explore a lot of things I had repressed for a while. So in that moment when I came out, I knew I cannot be monogamous right now. Like if somebody wants to be monogamous, I. I just can't right now. There's too much to explore. And I'm curious about too many things.

00:29:24:09 - 00:29:45:23

Rob

And I had this feeling that I really needed to explore that, to understand myself. So it was actually easy for me in that moment to say, I'm by and, you know, I'm exploring non-monogamy. And right now that, you know, I don't know if I'll be non-monogamous forever, but right now, that's what I'm looking for. I think that turned off some people, too.

00:29:45:23 - 00:30:11:23

Rob

Totally. But but also another good filter. And then I guess, just like over time, that it started to feel like part of my identity as well, and not just something I needed in that moment, but like something I would like forever. And if I can find people who I love who are on the same page, like why not?

00:30:12:00 - 00:30:42:00

Rob

Like, that's great. If it if it slowly started to look like a more possible thing. And that gave me more confidence in it. And so I just kind of over time got got more comfortable with that identity too. And I still think maybe someday I could do monogamy with someone. Maybe not forever, maybe for some. But, you know, I've tried monogamy with my with my wife at certain times, like the pandemic and other times.

00:30:42:02 - 00:30:58:12

Rob

And there are good things about it. It's. Yeah, it's been pleasantly surprising in some ways. But then I miss going back to. But it's cutting off all these other things that I like and want to explore and I just don't want to cut that off.

00:30:58:14 - 00:31:19:09

Luna

I totally get that. For me, there's a certain access to a very specific flavor of intimacy that I've experienced as only like allowed to explore when I'm in a relationship container that is flexible enough to hold it, you know? And I really like going deep with multiple people, in ways that are good for all parties involved. Right.

00:31:19:09 - 00:31:19:23

Luna

You know.

00:31:20:01 - 00:31:50:08

Rob

Right. Yeah. And it also really turns me on, or at least I'm attracted to people who want that for me, who want me to continue to explore, who are not threatened by that. You know, because because for me, I've learned that I pretty rarely have jealousy. If a partner of mine is with someone else. Same. And actually I feel the opposite compassion, which is like I'm happy for them.

00:31:50:08 - 00:32:08:20

Rob

Like, I think that's great. I don't have to be there every time something good is happening to you. I like that a good thing is happening and that's great as long as you still want to do that with me. If you know, if somebody then doesn't want to be with me, okay, then maybe we have to talk about that.

00:32:08:22 - 00:32:28:07

Rob

But just because they like just because they like being with someone else, that it doesn't feel inherently threatening to me. It feels good. And it also takes some pressure off me to be everything for someone tall. And yeah, and when I feel less pressure, I feel more aroused and connected.

00:32:28:09 - 00:32:36:06

Luna

Absolutely a plus. I love receiving sex stories. I'm like, and if it's with someone who then also still wants to fuck me, I'm like.

00:32:36:08 - 00:32:38:09

Rob

You know, like, right.

00:32:38:11 - 00:32:53:05

Luna

This is funny. I'll share a little story. I don't think I've shared on this part yet, but like, I had a partner last year who was kind of newly dating after a monogamous divorce, you know, so the kind of like, fresh back in the pool was like, I don't think I'm settling down. And I was like, that's I'm not monogamous.

00:32:53:05 - 00:33:13:03

Luna

That's fine. Like, yay, you're in your Bachelor 2.0 phase. Wonderful. Like, and there was a day where he was like, well, okay, so here's the thing. I wanted to see you instead of this other person that I've been talking to. And I feel like I can tell you that, but what if that wasn't true? Like, if I had what if I canceled plans because I did want to see this other person more than you?

00:33:13:03 - 00:33:32:00

Luna

Like? Would it be okay to tell you that? And I looked at him. I was like, if you had me come over and fucked me instead of fucking the actual person you wanted to fuck, like as a friend, but also as a lover. I don't want that. Like, I don't want that. I go fuck the person you want to fuck.

00:33:32:02 - 00:33:47:23

Luna

It's okay to let me know where I am and your priority levels just be kind about it. Like, just be kind. And also, if the relationship has transitioned into something else or we're not fucking, that's okay. But just tell me, like, don't, don't fuck me when you'd rather be doing someone else. Especially if you have an opportunity to connect with someone you're excited about.

00:33:47:23 - 00:33:49:07

Luna

What are you talking about?

00:33:49:09 - 00:34:12:00

Rob

I know I, I couldn't agree more, and it's like that makes you just think we have all these perceptions about the way relationships should work. Yeah, yeah. You know, you should have sex with your primary partner x number of times a month and you should, you know, do you should want them more than anyone else. And you all the time or whatever.

00:34:12:00 - 00:34:40:22

Rob

All the shoulds are. No. Yeah. No, no. You should listen to yourself. Feel what you feel in your body and then be honest and authentic about that. That is the only should because there are a million. Truly, there are infinite expressions of sexuality and all of it is normal. And we, society that we live in puts on top these structures of like, this is how it should be.

00:34:41:01 - 00:34:59:06

Rob

This is what a marriage is. This is what that is. Here's how it should look. No, it's all bullshit. And you know what? Inside you? What is best for you and what works in your relationships. And you have to listen to that and be authentic about that. That's that's the real should.

00:34:59:10 - 00:35:12:14

Luna

Totally, totally. And in that connection to like that was the first moment of even deeper trust building. And, you know, from then on out, it was like, I can be the most honest with you ever of anyone. And I was like, great, just keep being yourself. You know, like, great, right?

00:35:12:16 - 00:35:33:19

Rob

That's what I love is that I love honesty and directness and openness. Like, if I can sense that there's something going on in someone's mind that they're not sharing. Oh, that locks me up. So much. Like you can you can tell and and when they. And when you going back to what you said before when, when a partner shares sex stories that they did with someone else.

00:35:33:21 - 00:35:43:12

Rob

I love it. And it gives me ideas and, and I learn something about my partner that I can use to create more pleasure between us. So like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:43:15 - 00:36:03:09

Luna

It's closer in the connection for me. And it's more, like I get to know all of them, you know, for people who like whatever, everyone's allowed to have their own certain structures. But for me, I never want to be in a don't ask, don't tell because because I don't want to be robbed of the connection that I experience from learning, like you said, about that part of the person.

00:36:03:11 - 00:36:04:19

Rob

Yeah.

00:36:04:21 - 00:36:08:13

Luna

I really want to know when your first circle jerk was.

00:36:08:13 - 00:36:13:07

Rob

It's just, you know, my previous. Okay, okay. But I can tell I.

00:36:13:07 - 00:36:35:10

Luna

Love circles and, like, masturbating, but also, like, there's something about, like, I don't have my own flesh cock. And so I think I feel like circle jerks are inherently cock oriented. I know that there can be, you know, plus owners jerking in them, but I think there's something about like cum coming out of cocks in a circle together that I just find so hot me to.

00:36:35:11 - 00:36:37:23

Rob

Oh, I wish you could come to the this.

00:36:38:00 - 00:36:48:08

Luna

Sometimes I think about being in the center like a target. Maybe there's a target painted on me, you know, I don't know. I've had lots of, like, fantasies about this, but I just haven't actualized. But I have so many fantasies. So, just.

00:36:48:10 - 00:36:53:13

Rob

I have that same exact. I have that same exact fantasy, and it and it has been actual ass.

00:36:53:15 - 00:36:56:11

Luna

Did you have a literal target on you, or were you just the human target?

00:36:56:16 - 00:36:58:00

Rob

No, I was, I've just been.

00:36:58:01 - 00:37:02:16

Luna

Did the aim for your belly button?

00:37:02:18 - 00:37:30:07

Rob

Not necessarily. Okay, okay. I mean, I've, I've explored that multiple times in different ways and that the top place on my body that's targeted can change. Yeah. And I enjoy it all the same. I do wish there were more vagina owners at these masturbation parties, because I think that would be very hot. I don't know how we can organize that, but yeah, you're right.

00:37:30:07 - 00:37:45:03

Luna

It could be the change I want to see. I haven't I've been I've been threatening like afternoon play parties for years. But it's like I gotta get the space. I gotta get the funds, I gotta, you know, figure out how I want to if I want to be in charge of something, or if I just want to be a fly on the wall guest, because I don't always want to be the ball.

00:37:45:04 - 00:37:49:05

Luna

I don't usually want to be the boss, but I usually and, you know, you get it.

00:37:49:07 - 00:38:09:10

Rob

Okay, well, and I'll answer your question in a second. But also what I love about the masturbation part is, is that there is a strict boundary around no penetration. And like I like penetration, but I also like this container where there's none of that and you and everyone knows that that's not allowed. And so you focus on this other thing.

00:38:09:10 - 00:38:27:12

Rob

And I just really like what that creates a very like focused, calm energy. Anyway, we could talk more about that in a minute, but okay, the question was the first time and then we can get into the parties. But yeah, my first.

00:38:27:12 - 00:38:38:06

Luna

How did you get to it? How did you learn about it? Did you already know you wanted to circle jerk? Did you even know what it was? I mean, yeah, I don't know, I'm just full of questions, but it's just anything. Any details about the circle jerks that are exciting to you?

00:38:38:08 - 00:39:03:21

Rob

I think. I think it all goes back to summer camp, and I never actually participated in a circle jerk at summer camp, but people talked about it a lot, like it was for some reason, a topic that came up and maybe some people did it. I don't know, I was never part of it or invited. Or maybe I was too anxious and shied away from it, I think.

00:39:04:03 - 00:39:30:18

Rob

I think if it had been happening right next to me, I would have gone to the other room because I was very uncomfortable at the time with with that. And I was afraid subconsciously it would make me gay. But I remember specifically this one time where, like the older campers a year older than us told us, we were gonna have to do a circle jerk, and like, the last person would have to eat it or something like as a as a hazing thing.

00:39:30:21 - 00:39:49:19

Rob

Yeah, yeah. And I remember feeling very tense about that. Like, is this really going to happen? How can I get out of this so tense? It was very charged for me. Yeah. And basically they told us that they let us freak out for five minutes and then they came back and we're like, just kidding. You don't have to do it.

00:39:49:21 - 00:40:12:16

Rob

That you guys were so freaked out. Hahaha. And and so we didn't do it. But I remember that moment so vividly. I remember it, and I think it was maybe more charged for me because I had in the back of my head these queer feelings. I don't know how charged it was for other people. Yeah, but that stuck with me.

00:40:12:22 - 00:40:38:10

Rob

And so I think part of why I was into it when I started exploring with men and coming out was fulfill that unexplored fantasy. Like, like I thought we would do that. And then even though I didn't want to, it got cut off. And so for two decades, I was like, what would that be like? You know, I imagined it, and I had no real, real world experience of it.

00:40:38:12 - 00:40:54:12

Rob

So I think it then just was like a thing. And I think it's a thing for a lot of guys, both gay, bi and straight. I think so many guys have had some experience when they're younger of group masturbation or maybe.

00:40:54:12 - 00:40:55:21

Luna

Even many stories of.

00:40:55:21 - 00:41:22:14

Rob

This. Yeah. And I just did a stand up set a couple weeks ago about masturbation parties. And, and I did a lot of open mics and I would talk to comedians afterwards. So many male straight male comedians would come up to me and say, like, yeah, we did a we had a circle jerk in middle school, or like, I used to jerk off with my friend and like they all so many people have had these experiences and then don't really talk about that.

00:41:22:14 - 00:41:45:22

Rob

Yeah, yeah. Like when I first saw them, when I first started coming out, I was getting these non reciprocal blowjobs. I also would gravitate towards straight guys who just wanted to jerk off together or watch porn or would say like, you know, just chill with my bro and like, it's straight, we're just jerking off. And so I did that a number of times too, with just one other person.

00:41:46:00 - 00:42:11:06

Rob

Because to me it wasn't as gay as others think. And I was still scared of being gay. And so I think doing that kind of made me realize I enjoyed that too. I enjoyed no pressure to have sex, but just to touch and mutual masturbation. And then at some point, still before I was out, I learned that there are these masturbation parties.

00:42:11:06 - 00:42:44:01

Rob

I was in New York at the time. It's called New York Jacks, and I just kind of pushed myself and went one time and had this, like overwhelming experience, because at New York Jacks, there's like minimum 50 people there every time, sometimes 100 or more. So it was like this sea of naked man and, some of it was a learning experience because you have to learn how to navigate consent in those spaces.

00:42:44:04 - 00:42:49:17

Rob

Yeah. In hindsight, I wished I had had like a guide who had been there before, and I.

00:42:49:17 - 00:43:07:14

Luna

Want that for all of us at all sex. But I want that for all experiences. Truly. Like if, if like teenage me had had a guide and I tried, I tried, but I had so many people around me that were like too nervous to talk about. So they give books some or, you know, but yes, I especially in the party scene.

00:43:07:14 - 00:43:08:14

Luna

Yeah. Sorry, sorry.

00:43:08:16 - 00:43:34:09

Rob

Yeah. No, no I don't be I yeah but I, part of me wishes that. But at the same time I, I figured it out I navigated that I learned how to handle myself in those spaces and I loved it. Like I just found that I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the anonymity of it and also the intimate connection.

00:43:34:09 - 00:44:05:03

Rob

It was almost like really intimate and at the same time totally anonymous. And when you when you, when you're in the space, you're really connected with people and, and on the same page. And then you walk out and you're back to your life and nobody knows what happened in there. And, and I just really liked that. And I think it was at those parties when I started to develop this kink for come, because I would really like if someone was coming, I would notice and it would turn me off, I would watch, I.

00:44:05:03 - 00:44:14:12

Luna

Love watching, I mean, I like come in my holes, but I like watching it. It's a real toss up. It's a real toss up.

00:44:14:14 - 00:44:39:12

Rob

Yeah, I really like to see it. I and I started to like to feel feel it on my body. Yeah. And I, and I still am unpacking like why that is. But I think it's something about like being with someone in that moment when they're, when you know, they're experiencing pleasure, like you can't see, they can't. Yeah. You can't fake it.

00:44:39:12 - 00:44:48:17

Rob

You know that something right is happening for them in that moment and I, I it just turns me on a lot.

00:44:48:19 - 00:45:07:14

Luna

Yeah. It's like a human volcano with you. Could be a guide for someone who was going into that space. Let's pretend like you are. What specifics of communication or boundary settings or whatever, I don't know, to ask a question about well enough, would you recommend a newbie kind of be prepared for.

00:45:07:16 - 00:45:34:20

Rob

Well, those spaces and many male only sex parties are much more, in my experience, nonverbal than a coed sex party. Like most of the spaces with more than just men, consent is sort of very explicit, and it has to be. And I like that, you know, you really have to use your words and ask and get a hell yes.

00:45:35:00 - 00:46:07:01

Rob

Yeah. At male sex parties, that isn't always the case. And I'm not going to judge that necessarily like that. There's some I like the explicitness, but I've learned to navigate it without it. And once you get a sense of that, the pressure went away for me. But basically when, when you're going in, if I were guiding you, I would say, like, you can say you can say no either with your words or non-verbally whenever you want.

00:46:07:06 - 00:46:32:04

Rob

You don't have to do anything with anyone. And in the masturbation party specifically, you can use your hand and move. Just gently move someone else away from you if you want to, and that is accepted. That is how you communicate it. No one will be upset with you or push. No one will continue doing something if you do that.

00:46:32:04 - 00:47:05:12

Rob

Like that's how you can say no in those spaces is to just maybe just shake your head, or maybe just give them a look or or just physically gently move, move their hand away from you. I didn't know that at first. And so it wasn't like I was doing stuff that I hated, but I was, you know, I was it sometimes there was that feeling of like, I don't know what to do or how to react to this, or like, maybe I'll just go to the bathroom to avoid this situation.

00:47:05:13 - 00:47:36:11

Rob

So that that would be my advice to my guided advice is like, you can give and revoke consent non-verbally. And also like you can just go for what you want and you can go up to people who who you are into and you don't even, you know, there's a lot of anxiety I had, and I think many of the guys had about asking, you know, do you want to touch, do you can I touch you?

00:47:36:12 - 00:47:59:22

Rob

A you can ask that, you can go stand next to them and you can read their body language and like if they don't look at you or they turn away from you, that's your answer. And if they are looking at you and, and kind of receptive, that's also your answer. And if you and if you touch you can ask if can I touch you.

00:48:00:00 - 00:48:21:02

Rob

You can also in those spaces touch and some and those people will say no if they don't want that. So it's like it's kind of a I mean, as I'm saying it out loud, like, I don't know that this is the way it always should work. Like I really like explicit consent. And these days at the parties I will say, May I?

00:48:21:08 - 00:48:41:00

Rob

Yeah. Like maybe not use a full, complete sentence, but may I and and get a nod or a shake and that makes me more comfortable. But there's just a lot of gay sex parties where people don't talk and they just do. And then you either do or don't. And you read the body language, and that's kind of how it works.

00:48:41:06 - 00:49:25:12

Luna

Absolutely. I mean, I've I've been to a lot of sex parties where I don't receive the level of verbal communication that I need or required to actually get to play. And. Explicit affirmative consent is also imperfect because all verbal communication is imperfect and it doesn't, you know, so I always want to empower people to use all the tools at their disposal and also be like, oh, also, just because I said yes in this minute, one minute later I may be like, actually this, you know, because my body changes its feelings or like if I get distracted, I might turn on may go away, or if suddenly I said yes to them.

00:49:25:12 - 00:49:48:08

Luna

And now there's a partner here that I didn't say yes to. No. That's a whole new question, you know. And so as a person who really, really thrives in all circumstances on explicit communication to the point where it really annoys the fuck out of some people, like a I'm going to continue to do what I need to do to feel comfy and be it's like we're all just doing our best.

00:49:48:08 - 00:50:05:19

Luna

And I really just want to help people say yes or no. And the part that I'm practicing is being what you just said. It's like, if I like someone being brave enough to go up and kind of like invite what I like, which also requires me to identify my desire in that moment, which I think many of us can.

00:50:05:21 - 00:50:09:05

Luna

You know, it's an ongoing practice in every circumstance and moments.

00:50:09:07 - 00:50:36:21

Rob

Right, right. And, and I we're on the same page about a lot of things. But I like I have two anxieties about going up to someone. One, they won't be interested in me and it'll be embarrassing. Whatever. I'm getting over that. Sometimes it's still there, but, you know, I can push through that. My other bigger one that's sort of harder to deal with is I worry they will say yes even if they don't really want to.

00:50:36:23 - 00:50:54:05

Luna

Yes, I've experienced that as a I say no if I want to know like I'm the most real time boundaries. Stop it. Do this, do that. You know, like so I don't have that issue. But on the other side, I have had people where they were like, actually. And I'm like, thanks for telling me. Okay. And so like, I get it, I get it.

00:50:54:06 - 00:50:55:16

Luna

That's a real fear.

00:50:55:18 - 00:51:18:15

Rob

And so yeah, I mean, I, I try to trust other people that, that they can express themselves and, stand up for themselves. But I also like to live by this philosophy. Since I started going to sex parties, which is like, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no. And so, you know, you can sense people's energy if you're paying attention.

00:51:18:17 - 00:51:36:02

Rob

And whenever I get a yes, that doesn't feel like a hell yes, I might back off or go slower or, you know, yeah, just come maybe come back to it later or just, you know, walk away. Well, I also as okay.

00:51:36:04 - 00:51:59:03

Luna

As another submissive person or submissive leaning right. I'm in top space most of the time for work. If I'm directing, if I'm photography, if I'm being a photo, damn. If I'm, you know, in a sex work space, giving joy like I know how to use top space. But for me, if I'm going a play party for funsies, I ideally also I'm not leading the entire experience in like curating this thing for a stranger I just met, you know?

00:51:59:03 - 00:52:19:03

Luna

So for me, I'm also like, would you want to play? And then I'm like, how you know? And so then I look for the ball that's going to get tossed back and forth instead of just being the like, sexy tour guide, I guess. So that's that's kind of how I look for communication, whether, again, whether it's verbal or, nonverbal, like, where do you want to touch me first or do you want to go over here?

00:52:19:03 - 00:52:20:01

Luna

That, that sort of stuff.

00:52:20:01 - 00:52:26:21

Rob

So yeah, I think turns me on more than someone who knows what they want to do with you. Yes.

00:52:27:01 - 00:52:32:06

Luna

Although I feel so much pressure sometimes. So I'm also like, as long as.

00:52:32:06 - 00:52:33:06

Rob

There's a spark.

00:52:33:06 - 00:52:49:01

Luna

Yeah, as long as they have a spark and as long as they. As long as they want to explore it together. That's what really lights me up, you know? Because I feel an immense amount of pressure if someone walks up to me like, hey, you want to play? And I'm like, maybe. Yes, what are you thinking? They're like, I don't know, what do you want to do?

00:52:49:01 - 00:52:50:04

Luna

And I'm like.

00:52:50:06 - 00:52:52:20

Rob

Well, what do you want to do? And then we're in this loop.

00:52:52:22 - 00:53:11:03

Luna

Because I don't know them at all. And that's why I also I'm really discovering that I actually love to get to know people first and then go to play parties, or I'm really working on fulfilling my fantasy of finding a top who wants to, like, point me in a direction of the sex party. And so I just got used for the first time for a performance, at a play party.

00:53:11:09 - 00:53:28:21

Luna

So we got the party started. I was a baby dragon that was tamed by my mistress, Dragon tamer. You know? And so then that was a fun week. And then I was, like, ordered to worship after care. And then it also gave me a way to connect with people at the party. I didn't end up playing with anyone because I was more of a voyeur watcher, and just also.

00:53:28:21 - 00:53:30:11

Rob

Because everything happened slowly.

00:53:30:11 - 00:53:30:18

Luna

And I.

00:53:30:18 - 00:53:33:05

Rob

Start to expire and turn into a pumpkin around 11.

00:53:33:06 - 00:53:36:16

Luna

£0.30 m and people don't get the party started until later, fuck wise usually.

00:53:36:16 - 00:53:39:15

Rob

So fire sex parties so late at night all the time.

00:53:39:15 - 00:53:58:18

Luna

I think a lot of people need the cloak of darkness. I know, I think, I think I really am. I'm going to spend the rest of this year figuring out how 2025 can really be the year of my hosted brunches and play parties where people, you know, you got to arrive by noon. Snacks and drinks started 11. We have a curated like a really curated.

00:53:58:18 - 00:54:19:12

Luna

Here's how we're holding the container of this space. Here's and I think in my perfect world, it also comes with like education glasses. You know, in some some places do do intake glasses. So anyway that's that's we'll see. We'll see if I actually want to do that. But sounds good. And it might just start with, personal explorations in my inner circles and, you know, trying it out, test testers.

00:54:19:17 - 00:54:33:15

Luna

But, I want to hear about what it's like to be more of a submissive and more of a top. I know for some listeners who maybe aren't super well versed, they may see those things as opposite. But tell us a little bit about your world in those ways.

00:54:33:17 - 00:55:04:06

Rob

Okay, so Tom's top, bottom. Many people correlate those things, but they are separate things. And so it's might seem, contradictory to be a subtype, but it is not. So. So the Dom sub stuff we talked about a little like to me, that's a power dynamic in sex. And there doesn't have to be an explicit dynamic. You could be sort of equal.

00:55:04:06 - 00:55:29:12

Rob

And that's a perfectly normal and fine way to have sex. But often, either consciously or subconsciously, there's this dynamic. And one person might be leading or guiding more than the other, or at the more extreme, and one person might be bossing the other around, deciding everything you know, master slave, like you do what I say, and that can be a big turn on to people you know.

00:55:29:14 - 00:55:56:10

Rob

But you can tie people up. You can do all sorts of things in the dominant, submissive dynamic. And I think I lean toward the submissive side because after 20 years of feeling like I had to fulfill the dominant masculine role without really liking it, I'm now sort of swinging the other way and really enjoying letting other people take the lead.

00:55:56:12 - 00:56:27:13

Rob

You know, I'm into lots of different things, and the thing I'm most into his pleasing someone else. And so if they're taking the lead, I feel comfortable and confident that they like what's happening. And that allows me to really let go and be there and present and and not feel performance anxiety. So, so I'm more submissive. And then to top bottom is really just about either penetrating or being penetrated.

00:56:27:15 - 00:56:58:21

Rob

Like that's it's not really necessarily related to the dynamic. It's just to prefer to penetrate or to be penetrated. And most tops in the gay community are more dominant and more bottoms are more submissive. But not all. You know, maybe that's a slight correlation, but it's it's not necessarily tied. And so basically I, I, I'm very comfortable tapping and I like tapping.

00:56:58:21 - 00:57:25:12

Rob

I like the sensations of that, of being the penetrator. Yeah. But I also don't necessarily need to lead lead the other person. Like I like to follow someone's lead. And one of my favorite things is to to tap. But from the bottom like to be ridden by someone because they're I mean, I'm still the top even though I'm on the bottom.

00:57:25:14 - 00:57:49:20

Rob

But if you're penetrating, then you're the top. But I like that dynamic of I'm just lying there and they're doing the motions and the work, but but they're still the bottom in that situation, right? Yeah. Yeah. So so that's why I'm a sub tap and but I can be dominant when I know the other person is into that.

00:57:49:22 - 00:58:14:02

Rob

And when we've kind of talked about what they want, then I can be dominant without having the performance anxiety and the doubts of do they like this? Like if I'm dominating and I don't know if they're into it, then it takes me out of it. And I yeah, it's hard for me. But, you know, if we've talked through it, I can be dominant and then but like, I also never bottomed until I came out.

00:58:14:08 - 00:58:30:20

Rob

I never even touched my butt until I came out like, oh, I didn't know what it felt like. Yeah. I remember the first time a guy rimmed me like a my ass. Yeah. I was like, could not believe what that felt like.

00:58:30:20 - 00:58:31:09

Luna

Same.

00:58:31:09 - 00:58:55:20

Rob

I was like, whoa. Yeah. I was like, whoa. Nobody told me, like, why did I go so long without feeling that it's so wildly different from most other sensations, and it's really feels good. And there's this feeling of like, you really have to let go. And if you do, it feels so good. Like, don't clench, you know, let it go.

00:58:55:22 - 00:59:19:21

Rob

And and don't have that fear of, you know, the cleanliness or like, there's ways to take care of the cleanliness so that you can let go and feel it. And then from that experience, one step at a time, I started exploring more and started using toys and then eventually bottomed for other people. And I like it. And it feels different.

00:59:19:21 - 00:59:47:19

Rob

Like a prostate orgasm. An orgasm when you have something in there is really different and really incredible. Like it's this body, hi, it's this body orgasm instead of like, I don't know how many orgasms I have. You feel it in that area in your dick. But this felt like it's all through my body in this amazing way. So I like bottoming.

00:59:47:21 - 01:00:07:00

Rob

I just don't do it as much for kind of practical reasons. And also it's there are like so many more bottoms in the gay community than top. So it's kind of hard to find. It's harder to find a top here. Most people want me to type. They don't want me to bottom. They want me to top them. Yeah.

01:00:07:01 - 01:00:15:15

Rob

Oh my God. It's like, kind of a running joke on these gay apps, but, like, there's a million bottoms out there and there's not enough tops.

01:00:15:15 - 01:00:30:16

Luna

That's so funny. I know that through, like, the kink community, but I didn't realize that it extended. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I do think a lot of us just want to be told what to do in this world as much as we're, like on a page, but it's like in a way where we're deeply taken care of too.

01:00:30:17 - 01:00:34:17

Luna

Right? And because to receive and to surrender like it really is a beautiful gift.

01:00:34:21 - 01:00:35:09

Rob

Yeah.

01:00:35:11 - 01:00:38:18

Luna

So here's a question. When you are with a pussy owner, do.

01:00:38:18 - 01:00:39:18

Rob

You.

01:00:39:18 - 01:00:44:19

Luna

Still like butt stuff or are you like, I get enough of it? Or like, how do you feel about all the.

01:00:44:19 - 01:00:49:04

Rob

Holes, like for their butt stuff or my butt stuff with all.

01:00:49:04 - 01:00:52:13

Luna

The directions? But there's yeah, all directions.

01:00:52:15 - 01:01:28:22

Rob

I would say I'm very open to it. I enjoy it, but I've kind of follow their lead. Like I would say, most. Well, I don't know about most, but you know, many, many pussy owners just want want that and want vaginal intercourse. But I'm open to it. I'm trying to think if I've done that recently, I can't think of a time, but I don't think there's a specific reason why other than it just hasn't come up with me and my specific partners as something we've wanted to try.

01:01:28:22 - 01:01:39:20

Rob

But but yeah. I don't see why not. Like, right. Like it's feels just you have a vagina, but it still feels good. Yeah. No, I it I'm.

01:01:39:20 - 01:02:03:07

Luna

The kind where I'm like, I love it if all of my holes can be serviced. You know, in my perfect world. In my perfect world, it doesn't happen often because I also will only play with my asshole with a partner who knows about assholes, is very into assholes and like, wants to like obviously for me the and not just like they'll do it if I ask them because I want I'm like no, you have to like a butthole.

01:02:03:07 - 01:02:23:08

Luna

Like otherwise please stay away. You know, because I'm, I'm really both directions like I love. I realized through my first kinky relationship. Like I am a butt slut. And, like, I love, I love giving and receiving and playing and cool. Love having a singer in an asshole when there's an orgasm happening. Because I love the feeling of squeezing.

01:02:23:08 - 01:02:43:04

Luna

Like, I just love that muscle contraction. I like it in pussies too, right? Like if I'm making a pussy come and I can feel that, like, that's really hot. Oh, interesting. I'm in this moment realizing, I think this is a fresh realization. I'm really into my own asshole squeezing, and I don't care as much about the feeling of my pussy, but I think it's because it's just less intense.

01:02:43:04 - 01:02:46:17

Luna

Or like, maybe because I'm more distracted. I don't know, but like, it's.

01:02:46:20 - 01:02:50:18

Rob

Like, stick your own finger there to feel the squeezing. Oh yes yes yes.

01:02:50:19 - 01:03:03:12

Luna

Yes yes yes. You know, not not every time, but Yeah. And so because I just like, I don't know, I just like love it's such a different texture for me. And then it's like getting that sensation is yummy.

01:03:03:14 - 01:03:18:13

Rob

Yeah. I do really like eating ass. You know, assuming you've taken the steps to clean and everything, which, yeah, people are afraid of but is easy to do. Yeah. Once you've done that, it's great. And it's like sort of different from from eating pussy. Like it.

01:03:18:13 - 01:03:20:02

Luna

Is. It's very different.

01:03:20:04 - 01:03:26:15

Rob

Yeah. It's and both are nice in different ways. How can I ask you like how do they feel different to you.

01:03:26:17 - 01:03:28:09

Luna

Pussy eating versus asshole eating.

01:03:28:12 - 01:03:31:12

Rob

No. Get getting you're receiving. Yeah.

01:03:31:14 - 01:03:52:13

Luna

No one has asked me that. They're completely different. I do like, you know, so I don't want to, like, I don't want to have, like, a tongue go from my ass to my pussy. Like, I'm very much like, let's keep it separate. But I do like, a lot of, like, double stimulation if we're doing fingers. But, like, for me, like asshole licking.

01:03:52:15 - 01:04:11:00

Luna

There are two completely different kinds of vulnerable. And I really like, you know, so I can feel like the tightness of my own ass. Oh, and to jump back to what you were saying earlier, like, agree about the clenching. Like letting my asshole relax. Like, if I am with someone and I feel that level of relaxation to let go, I love.

01:04:11:00 - 01:04:28:15

Luna

But if I'm giving, like if I'm sticking my if I'm tongue fucking an asshole, basically, I kind of love it if they clinch up a little bit around my tongue like I like, I like because I'm a sensation seeker. Anybody interesting and but pussy wise, it feels because it's like a larger surface area and the nerves are all different.

01:04:28:15 - 01:04:56:07

Luna

And because I have a smaller clitoral hood, which means like my clit is hyper sensitive if you just like, go directly for it. Like, I really, like, I really like tongue sucking inside on both, but in my pussy it is less tight, like it feels wider and warmer and more just like warming the whole thing up and then like clit wise in a way where like, if you're between my cracks, you can play all around and be a little bit rougher.

01:04:56:07 - 01:05:22:22

Luna

But like my Clinton needs, if there's like direct like single finger or, or single pointy tongue stimulation, I need a lot of gentleness if we're in the clear region. And so my pussy likes a lot more like wide, flat tongue and like, someone can totally do that up my butt crack if that's their thing. But I'm, like, much more excited about, like, the whole parts and the edges and the warm up.

01:05:22:22 - 01:05:46:05

Luna

You know, I love just even just like the massage or the masturbation or like using a knuckle, and on my pussy, you know, it's just a completely different sensation when it's like. Like I love my outer lips to be played with. I love my inner lips to be teased. And I love if, you know, if they're putting lips over my clitoris, like, including fingers, then I like a lot of hard pressure.

01:05:46:09 - 01:05:49:11

Luna

And then the thing about being really specific, maybe more.

01:05:49:13 - 01:05:51:13

Rob

Is it okay? Okay. And then what?

01:05:51:18 - 01:06:10:07

Luna

What I really like about like, pussy eating receiving wise, that is, I've never had anyone try actually with an asshole I don't think is like having all my folds taken into the mouth like a blowjob, you know, and then because it creates this, like suction, like almost like, okay, it's.

01:06:10:09 - 01:06:10:14

Rob

Okay.

01:06:10:14 - 01:06:27:12

Luna

I did have someone write to me about vacuum play, and I did try this over my sweatpants. So there were sweatpants in between. But but that, that sort of like, like blowjob suction of just like having everything in there. Then I can have a lot of pressure and stimulation, and that's just a completely different experience from asshole stuff.

01:06:27:17 - 01:06:39:06

Luna

And then the other thing is, like with a pussy, just because of just because it's shaped different, I like I really love having like fingers inside and the outside stimulus stimulated with like, lots of wetness. Yeah. So that's.

01:06:39:06 - 01:06:47:00

Rob

Fascinating. It's very interesting. Last part I've tried, but the vacuum thing, I've never tried. That sounds hot.

01:06:47:02 - 01:06:50:19

Luna

I thought it was hot. I put it on my nipple, you know, and it was someone that was like, are you going to try it? I was like.

01:06:50:21 - 01:06:54:07

Rob

Why wouldn't I try this, you know? And.

01:06:54:09 - 01:07:10:06

Luna

And that was a penis. Oh, no. That has a special vacuum for, for like a play vacuum and then like a regular house vacuum. I have a vacuum that's probably a little bit too strong. I think I would prefer to try it again with a different vacuum, but, Yeah, yeah, I love that. Sort of like that pressure.

01:07:10:06 - 01:07:16:15

Luna

And, you know, again, for me, like the, like, you know, all the clip sucker toys that are like small and they have like air pulses.

01:07:16:20 - 01:07:18:00

Rob

I actually have one.

01:07:18:02 - 01:07:37:04

Luna

Yeah. I mean interesting, but like, I, I have to be so. The way that my clit works because it's like they're like so not enough to get me close for a while. And then when I'm at the close, at the edge and coming, then it is suddenly way too much. So I really have to be careful about how I hold them.

01:07:37:04 - 01:07:57:13

Luna

It's not a toy that I could ever let anyone else drive with so far. I mean, things are always changing, right? Like, so it's interesting because I just have like such hypersensitivity. So it's like my clitoris is a tricky, finicky bitch. And that's why I also like, really like high sensations long sessions. Because if all of me is warmed up, then I can take a lot of everything.

01:07:57:18 - 01:08:25:21

Luna

And I would say that's the larger similarity. To bring it home with the comparison is like both for me, in the best case scenario, both assholes and pussy stuff. Just a lot of warm ups. So yummy. Like I love that warmth. And that is why I think every penis owner should get penetrated in the asshole, because if they did, then they might understand a little bit more about like the slowness and the tenderness and how fun warm up is and can be.

01:08:25:21 - 01:08:38:19

Luna

And I feel like it for me, like really getting to know other people's assholes, I think, took me to the next level of appreciation for even oral sex on pussies. Giving and receiving, you know?

01:08:38:19 - 01:09:02:00

Rob

So yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I did learn so much from being penetrated. Yes. About sex and just, you see, the other side of it that most men have not ever felt. And you just feel, you just feel it in a different way. And it changes how you think about everything in a good way. And just gives you that other side of things.

01:09:02:00 - 01:09:03:00

Rob

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:03:03 - 01:09:23:01

Luna

Even if it's only a dildo and it's you by yourself, I just. Yeah, I just noticed that my lovers with penises who have taken the time to explore all their orifices, are a lot more conscientious in my in my personal experience, you know, total and total more likely to, like, take pleasure out of every, every little moment. Okay.

01:09:23:01 - 01:09:36:13

Luna

What about sex part? Is there anything else to say about sex parties for you? Just like things you've enjoyed. You know, you like the queer spaces like me. I don't know if you know, it's kind of self-explanatory, but you know what? What lights you up or what would you like to explore in sex party group situations?

01:09:36:15 - 01:10:07:21

Rob

Yeah, I mean, a lot of the straight sex party is where, like, people come as couples feel intimidating to me. And I've been less comfortable at those, I've. And I've found some people to be less open to talking about stuff ahead of time, but I don't know, that may just be my experience of it. But I love the sort of gender diversity and queer expression at the more queer parties.

01:10:07:21 - 01:10:34:18

Rob

Like, you know, my favorite ones I've ever been to were like gender fluid focused parties or trans focused parties where just like, yeah, you can't make any assumptions about anyone, right? So you have to talk. You have to talk about what, you know, get to know a personal head on. What do you want to explore? And I also just find I'm very attracted to people who are different in some way.

01:10:34:20 - 01:11:05:02

Rob

And that could be in lots of ways. It doesn't have to be an appearance, but just, yeah, quirky ness or people who, you know, are breaking out of whatever box it is and who are confident in that. And so that turns me on and I it's I really I like the exhibitionism of parties, like I like to be seen, but I also sometimes find that that gives me performance anxiety at the same time.

01:11:05:04 - 01:11:28:20

Rob

So there have been interesting moments at parties that, you know, I'm still working through. This is where like, I'm very turned on in my head and I love what's happening and what I'm seeing. And I'm like really into it here, but not down there. And I'm like, why am I not hard as a rock right now because of this?

01:11:28:22 - 01:11:32:14

Rob

Because this seems so cool to me. I love it.

01:11:32:15 - 01:11:38:10

Luna

I just get stimulated sometimes and I'm like, ooh. And then if I'm with someone that's like, are you going to come now, babe? I'm like.

01:11:38:12 - 01:11:39:16

Rob

Yeah, no, but.

01:11:39:16 - 01:11:42:06

Luna

I'm very turned on and that's okay.

01:11:42:07 - 01:12:14:11

Rob

Right? Right, right. So part of me is saying, like, it's telling myself, like it's okay. You don't have to be turned on every single moment of a sex party. That would be impossible anyway. And it's also made me realize that, like the seeing and being seeing gives me the context to to be turned on and I and it works on me up here, but I've started to realize that what actually gets me aroused physically is being touched.

01:12:14:13 - 01:12:33:20

Luna

I was just going to ask that, okay? Because I'm like, I love soft cocks. I love playing with soft cocks. I get so sad if my partner stays hard the entire time because I'm like, I need all textures, you know? And so I, I now have a partner that will like, gift me and like, how many times do we get to make it go down, you know.

01:12:33:20 - 01:12:48:08

Luna

And so it's like sometimes it's only when sometimes it's multiples. If I'm being really good or whatever. Because I'm like, it's my toy. I want to have my toy, you know, and, and I like to touch and I like having a soft cock in my mouth because it's it's different. It's slurpy, you know what I mean? Like, it's like.

01:12:48:08 - 01:12:59:06

Luna

And then I, Yeah. And so and I also like it's a different experience too. I love feeling it grow. I love feeling it grow, especially if I can have my hand or mouth on it, you know. Yeah.

01:12:59:08 - 01:13:15:23

Rob

Well, I love that attitude. If I imagine maybe this is what I need to do, but, like, if I, if other people had that attitude or even if I imagined that they had that attitude, I feel like it would take a lot of pressure off of. Yeah, that's what it did with this partner.

01:13:15:23 - 01:13:30:00

Luna

Because because he and he didn't believe me at first. And I was like, I was like, well, we don't have to get you hired then, but like, I'm just going to lay here. And I was like, if you're not too overstimulated right now because he was like, we had just played. And I was like, I was like, then can I just.

01:13:30:00 - 01:13:47:05

Luna

I was like, there's no pressure to do anything. But like while you're scrolling or doing whatever you're doing on your phone, because I also have a little bit of like, I tend to have more desire than most partners that I'm with. And so I've had I've, I've, I've done a beautiful job of creating these like rejection experiences for myself from people who like, like me to.

01:13:47:05 - 01:14:10:13

Luna

Right, because I'm like, oh, I don't think. And so I was like, what if I just like, play down here for a while? If you're not too overstimulated and like, you don't have to do anything. And then that was how he sort of like realized that actually taking off the pressure. And yeah, that's where he started to believe that I like, like a soft cock because it's just a plaything, because it also removes the like I used to get into anxiety loop spirals of like, well, I don't mind, but he minds or he minds.

01:14:10:13 - 01:14:14:23

Luna

Okay, now why am I supposed to do I have to but that's also just like.

01:14:15:01 - 01:14:37:16

Rob

Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, the permission to be soft probably gets people hard. Like, I like the pressure to be hard means prevents you from doing it, from getting there. Like. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that. Like, often I will be touching someone else and I like that. It feels good. I'm glad that it feels good for them.

01:14:37:16 - 01:14:53:05

Rob

It's a it's like brain arousing in my brain. But I'm not going to get hard myself until. Yeah, they're touching me. Yeah, both. You know, my touching my dick. I love the sensation of lube. I've realized. Oh, I love dripping.

01:14:53:07 - 01:15:02:12

Luna

I love dripping it on a cock. I love dripping it onto my like. I love feeling it a little bit cold drop down. I also love the warmed up lubes. Like a little bit warmer than me. Ooh, I love this.

01:15:02:14 - 01:15:16:15

Rob

Yeah, no, the sensations really turn me on. And then the other thing I've learned is my nipples are very sensitive and I never. And before I explored with men, I never knew that. Really, I never asked for. Actually.

01:15:16:15 - 01:15:24:02

Luna

That's true. I ask a lot of penis owning partners. I'm like, what are your nipples like? And they're like, I don't know. And I was like, well, I'm going to play with,

01:15:24:07 - 01:15:28:18

Rob

If that's okay. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. And that's what.

01:15:28:20 - 01:15:36:00

Luna

What kind of sensation though. Like what what do they and is it like good. Is it intense. Is it orgasmic. Is it very good to your cock like.

01:15:36:02 - 01:15:57:09

Rob

It's it's yeah. It feels like it's directly connected to my cock. Like it's like it's, very sensitive. Feels nice. Feels like a little bit of that vulgar ability, like openness. And then the sensitivity, like, all around here is not as sensitive. But then when I go right there, it's like, oh, I feel this. I feel the chill in my whole body.

01:15:57:09 - 01:16:05:13

Rob

Oh, cool. And then and then that if you do that for more than a second, it then is like wired to my abs.

01:16:05:13 - 01:16:21:15

Luna

Damn, I'm so jealous of those people I don't. I have a really tough nipples and they like to get played with. Please don't ignore the nipples. But like for me it goes like up through my neck and just like arouses everything it does not. It's not related to my orgasm at all. But I like touch everywhere, you know?

01:16:21:15 - 01:16:28:19

Luna

I love to be touched everywhere. Are you? Is it more like licking, kissing, sucking, flicking, pinching, squeezing? Or is it like anything like do.

01:16:28:19 - 01:16:39:08

Rob

Any, any of those things, any of those things work for me? Like just any attention paid to there? I think the licking and sucking is really good, actually.

01:16:39:09 - 01:16:40:07

Luna

Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:40:09 - 01:16:45:15

Rob

But even just touching and playing with or sometimes like putting a little clamp on there.

01:16:45:18 - 01:17:01:12

Luna

Okay, I was going to ask about clothespins because I'm like, I love a good clothespin. What about, I had a partner that wanted me to, like, lightly nibble, like, take the nipple between my teeth, which is so hard with a man nipple. There's. I mean, some of them are bigger, but, like, the time, like, this is a really delicate balance here.

01:17:01:12 - 01:17:03:03

Luna

What if I slip you?

01:17:03:05 - 01:17:25:05

Rob

Yeah, I think that's a delicate balance for me, too, because I do sometimes. If I feel it, I get a little nervous that it'll be too hard, or sometimes it is a little too hard. And I'm like that they're so sensitive that that can hurt. Yeah. Same with, same with like, ball play or like my mind.

01:17:25:05 - 01:17:26:21

Luna

Okay. Yeah, yeah yeah. What are your balls like.

01:17:27:02 - 01:17:53:09

Rob

Like I like, I like for people to play with my balls. Especially with their hands. Maybe with their tongue. But sometimes if they're like, put them entirely in their mouth and like, suck my balls. That gives me a little anxiety that it's kind of hurt and often it's fine. And I and if I'm really comfortable with someone and know what they're going to do and they've done it before, then I can let myself feel that and not worry.

01:17:53:11 - 01:17:57:03

Rob

But if it's often with a new person, if they do that, I tense up a little.

01:17:57:05 - 01:17:59:10

Luna

That makes sense. Yeah. Because you know.

01:17:59:12 - 01:18:01:23

Rob

Oh going, you're so sensitive. It's. Yeah. Yeah.

01:18:01:23 - 01:18:21:19

Luna

No, that's I mean that's cool. But going back to the soft cock thing that you were talking about, I did have a partner once who is into a little bit of, like, cock torture and like. And he was a little bit older, not super old, but, like, he really he really liked it. He asked for this directly and then and I was at first I was like, are you sure?

01:18:21:20 - 01:18:33:17

Luna

Okay, I can do it. Are you sure? He really liked it. If he was not so hard, if I would slap his cock pretty hard and say, get hard toys.

01:18:33:19 - 01:18:34:10

Rob

Wow.

01:18:34:12 - 01:18:50:14

Luna

I need this toy. You know, like it was like, come on, you know, and I would like that's a good, you know. And then I would praise it once it started. But the he like went from soft to hard with like impact on his cock and the specific like, don't you dare be soft for me. And it was like that that like got him really hard.

01:18:50:18 - 01:18:52:19

Luna

And I was like wow. So like.

01:18:53:00 - 01:18:54:00

Rob

Isolating just.

01:18:54:00 - 01:18:56:23

Luna

Interesting. All types, all types, very interesting.

01:18:56:23 - 01:19:09:02

Rob

There's everything out there and I don't like anyone's yarn. Whatever you're into, it's cool. It's legal and consensual. Yes yes yes. That would not work on me. Yeah. No, I mean I, I do.

01:19:09:04 - 01:19:24:11

Luna

I do like a pussy slap in, especially if I'm starting to get overstimulated or like the end of an orgasm or if I'm getting edge and I'm so close to cumming, like, I like that variety. But if someone were like, like for me, you know, and for him it was part of the like naughty play, right of like being bad with air quotes.

01:19:24:11 - 01:19:26:06

Luna

He knew it wasn't. But but I'm.

01:19:26:06 - 01:19:28:20

Rob

Like, I oh, that feels too much like an insult to me. You know.

01:19:28:20 - 01:19:33:00

Luna

I had to really be, secure, secure inside. But he was into that.

01:19:33:02 - 01:19:57:22

Rob

Yeah. That speaking of, like, I'm not very into pain. That's a turn off for me. I mean, very light impact can be kind of fun, but if it if it hurts even a little, it really takes me out of it. It's just not my jam. But I get it's for other people, but I, I'm very into bondage restraints being being tied up.

01:19:58:00 - 01:20:21:12

Rob

And also been exploring edging a lot lately. And I love it, I love edging, I've, I've been edged by some, some procedures on Twitter. I have an alt Twitter account that I won't tell you. What I don't handle is. But but I'm there and there are all these professional agers, and I've visited a few of them, and it's amazing.

01:20:21:16 - 01:20:24:13

Rob

Oh, that'll be. Oh.

01:20:24:15 - 01:20:30:12

Luna

Do you think you would, like, go into chastity? Like, do you think you would explore that level of extreme ness or like. No. Okay. Yeah. Because I'm like.

01:20:30:12 - 01:20:36:03

Rob

I'm not sure what it would do for me. I hear this.

01:20:36:05 - 01:20:38:21

Luna

Interesting sensation, but, oh, I.

01:20:38:23 - 01:20:41:03

Rob

Be like the swelling while it's in there.

01:20:41:05 - 01:20:41:19

Luna

The cage.

01:20:41:23 - 01:20:44:02

Rob

Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I.

01:20:44:04 - 01:20:57:05

Luna

It yeah, I mean I would, I would want, I would need the container of someone who is really excited to give it to me. Right. You know, like someone who is like really into the dynamic like that, that because I think I would need the mental component to get excited, but also like, I don't have a body part that would swell.

01:20:57:05 - 01:21:07:02

Luna

And I think that's the part of what I think. I'd rather take a picture of someone in a cage, which I have not yet done in my erotic photography, but color me curious.

01:21:07:04 - 01:21:17:16

Rob

I guess I would try that. I'm not. I'm. I'll try anything once I'm open, but but it isn't something that in theory can't me like knows that I don't. Yeah, it doesn't call to me.

01:21:17:18 - 01:21:26:13

Luna

But what about squirting? You mentioned squirting. So tell us a little bit about squirting because I love it and talk to you about it. Hearing about other people's experiences.

01:21:26:15 - 01:21:53:21

Rob

Well, I, I, I think it's similar to my interest in cum just like see that physical manifestation of orgasm and then like having it come out in a liquid form and like feeling it. I just think there's something that turns me on in the same way that cum turns me on. But also, like my first girlfriend I had intercourse with, in college.

01:21:54:02 - 01:22:16:03

Rob

She squirted a lot and like. So that was my first experience with vaginal sex. And at the time, I didn't love it. Like I didn't. I didn't hate it, but I was just kind of like, what is this? I didn't know about it. I was like, is this okay? And now I have to, you know, get a new mattress or like whatever, clean, clean the sheets.

01:22:16:05 - 01:22:40:17

Rob

And it just I didn't know enough to embrace it, but I but I felt what it felt like when I was fucking her and she was squirting. And it did feel good. And I think in hindsight now, it's like, I think part of why I'm so into it now is because I didn't allow myself to be into it then, even though on some level I liked it.

01:22:40:19 - 01:22:52:15

Rob

The other things about it, like what is it? And the embarrassment and the cleaning the sheets like those, prevented me from really enjoying it. And so now I like it.

01:22:52:17 - 01:22:58:15

Luna

I totally hear that. Yeah, they should definitely teach us about squirting and sex ed. You are correct. That's my take away.

01:22:58:15 - 01:23:21:17

Rob

Yeah, even if I are just like knowing that it's normal and it's cool and like, here's what you can do to keep your bed clean. I'm like, then I might have been able to really let go and embrace it and and enjoy it. And so now I can do that. Although I still I feel like I haven't found that many, women who squirt in the past few years.

01:23:21:18 - 01:23:23:18

Rob

Like, I would like to explore that some more.

01:23:23:23 - 01:23:42:03

Luna

Well, they got to be really hydrated. And there is an element of letting go for some people. I mean, some people do it quite naturally. Or like when I say naturally, I mean just without extra trying. Some people can't help it, but, I'm somewhere in between. I have to be hydrated and there has to be like a little bit of effort or it happens most often if I'm on top of vigorously smoking.

01:23:42:05 - 01:23:53:01

Luna

But there was a moment where like that was happening, and then it kind of like slipped out. And then I just got to watch, like, and I was like, oh. And he's like, what's happening? I was like, I'm drenching you.

01:23:53:03 - 01:23:56:08

Rob

I was like, oh, yeah, it's really fun.

01:23:56:10 - 01:24:06:23

Luna

Speaking of really fun, you've got to have public sex in saunas, bathrooms, and afterward, like, like, is it like sex saunas? Like like bathhouse situations or. Like what? Oh.

01:24:07:01 - 01:24:48:23

Rob

Both. So. So the first level of experiences was when I lived in New York at my local Equinox gym. Like. Yeah, when I, when I started coming out. Okay, so I had been going to this gym for years. Never crossed my mind that anyone would ever jerk off in the sauna. I had no clue. As soon as I started coming out and getting comfortable and hooking up with guys, I started to notice that when I went to that sauna, people would were looking at me and I had never noticed it before.

01:24:49:01 - 01:25:08:01

Rob

And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, people are looking what is this? This is. And that's gaydar. Like gaydar is eye contact. Like that's what I learned when I came out was like, when you look at someone and hold eye contact, that's that being something. And before I came out, I would not hold eye contact.

01:25:08:01 - 01:25:26:07

Rob

If a guy was looking at me, I would look away instantly. And so now if I look at a guy and he looks away instantly, I immediately know he's straight or he's doesn't realize that he's not straight. But that's off the table. But if they continue to hold eye contact, that's.

01:25:26:09 - 01:25:44:22

Luna

You are blowing my mind right now because I literally last week was like, I've been staring at so many beautiful ladies lately, and they look at me and smile back, wow, that's nice. I wonder what it means. And because I've always been like, I don't have a gaydar, you're the first person to put a concrete terms, and now.

01:25:44:22 - 01:25:45:23

Rob

I can use.

01:25:45:23 - 01:25:47:00

Luna

The data to go explore.

01:25:47:01 - 01:26:13:05

Rob

Wow wow wow wow. Radar is like 99% eye contact. Yeah. So. And the sauna kind of helps me realize that because in the sauna, it becomes very clear. Once you're looking for it becomes very clear who is looking around and who is in their own world. And until I came out, I was in my own world, in the sauna, I avoid I subconsciously avoided eye contact.

01:26:13:09 - 01:26:38:20

Rob

I sat there, I did my thing, I left once I started noticing it, I started seeing it all the time. Like maybe not every time I went to the gym, but pretty close to every time. And what happens is you start to notice who's looking, and then you notice who's not. So say there's like four people in there and two of us are looking at each other and two aren't.

01:26:38:22 - 01:27:02:22

Rob

You can't do anything while they're there. That would cause problems. But if those two others who are not looking live and you're left alone with people who are looking, stuff starts to happen. Like you'll just you'll just silently move closer and start touching starts to happen without even communication necessarily.

01:27:03:00 - 01:27:05:00

Luna

Well, without verbal communication.

01:27:05:02 - 01:27:29:09

Rob

Without verbal communication. And I basically jerked off or had oral sex with a lot of people in that Equinox steam room. And then and the steam room was like big enough that if the door opens, you have about one second to say, that's all I was gonna ask of where they can see you. You can only do it when the room is filled with steam and people can't see in from the outside, but.

01:27:29:14 - 01:27:55:19

Rob

So we would let the room fill. And then if anyone comes in, you just stop and and that's it. And like, you also start to notice when you enter a steam room, if people have just stopped having sex, you can tell. Yeah. And like and I've now told this to my straight friends and they've said, oh my God, I went to a steam room last week and I walked in and I felt weird.

01:27:55:19 - 01:28:07:12

Rob

I felt like something was happening and I didn't know what I felt like. Everyone was looking at me and I'm like, they were having sex until you walked in. That's that's 100% what was happening. 100%.

01:28:07:14 - 01:28:12:02

Luna

I feel like the oral sex part is harder to, like, reconfigure from.

01:28:12:04 - 01:28:16:18

Rob

It's mostly torture. I mean, there's more just masturbation in there because of that, because.

01:28:16:18 - 01:28:19:15

Luna

It's like, would you, like, lean over still sitting down like, let's.

01:28:19:15 - 01:28:46:10

Rob

Just. Yeah, I'm like, it's really just your body. It helps if you're bendy and it's mostly just like sitting next to each other and then, you know, leaning over, stuff like that. And so that that started to happen and I really enjoy it. That's yummy. And then, there are now, now I will go to specifically gay saunas where that's sort of accepted.

01:28:46:10 - 01:29:13:05

Rob

And what happens. And you don't have to hide it really. And the best sauna experiences I've had are out of the country, like London has some amazing ones. I just went to one in Mexico City. I had the best, best time. I was in Mexico City for a week with three, with two friends from from here. We didn't meet many locals or make many friends in the week.

01:29:13:06 - 01:29:33:13

Rob

The last night I went by myself to the gay sauna and I was like, I should have gone earlier because I actually made friends like we would meet people. It really, really is because it it's this instant intimacy. Yeah. And I would like, hook up with people in the dark room or in the hot tub or in the steam room.

01:29:33:15 - 01:29:50:04

Rob

And then we all went to the sauna and everyone's chit chatting. There was no sex in the sauna, only the steam room, and everyone chit chat and talks and I actually made friends there. It was so nice. I love yeah. Wow.

01:29:50:06 - 01:29:51:09

Luna

Oh my gosh.

01:29:51:11 - 01:30:17:14

Rob

I love the gay saunas because there's also like I'm into like, water and wetness. Yeah. People, you know, wet clothing or just shower. Shower sex is great. And at this sauna and at others, they have these like three showerheads behind a glass wall that was facing the bar area. It's just like, if you wanted, you could just go take a shower in front of everyone.

01:30:17:14 - 01:30:21:08

Rob

And I thought, I thought that was really hot. So hot.

01:30:21:11 - 01:30:24:23

Luna

Do they have like, condoms around or is it like, what is that vibe.

01:30:24:23 - 01:30:44:10

Rob

Like, gave you a packet of lube and one condom when you entered. Okay. And I guess you could have gone back and bought more, asked for more personally at that night for me, I used the one I got and that was enough. But yeah, they had some. I guess you should bring your own if you're going to use multiple, I don't know.

01:30:44:14 - 01:30:46:19

Rob

Yeah. Wow wow.

01:30:46:19 - 01:30:59:17

Luna

Oh my god. Okay, well I feel like there's a million things we could talk about. But let's ask you if there's anything else we need to know about Rob to feel like we round out your batch of sex stories.

01:30:59:18 - 01:31:32:21

Rob

Where we started was with sham. And, like, I could not have had this conversation with you for seven years ago or ten years ago or whatever. Like, I had a lot of shame about all of these things. And I couldn't even tell partner, let alone anyone who can download a podcast. Yeah, and not coming out as BI was the first step was so helpful doing my podcast and talking more and more and more about it got me comfortable.

01:31:32:21 - 01:31:54:01

Rob

And just like every little step along the way was so helpful and healing for me. And like, you know, I'm probably not at a zero in terms of shame. I'm probably at like still 1 or 2 and there's there's always more work to do and things to explore and like, but now that makes me excited and not scared the way I used to.

01:31:54:03 - 01:32:01:00

Luna

So in that vein, what are you most excited to explore? Like what are your hopes, sexual hopes for the future?

01:32:01:01 - 01:32:48:05

Rob

Good question. I mean, I just I think just like I still have that that, that anxiety sometimes about sex and like what it should be and worrying if the other person is into it or not. And what I'm really excited about lately is doing more internal work and embodiment work and feeling things instead of thanking them. And, and, you know, taking what I know and really letting it sink into my body and just being in spaces where I can push myself to feel that and to not overthink it.

01:32:48:05 - 01:33:08:15

Rob

And so I just want to keep exploring this stuff with both individuals and, and new things with them. And also group party, party scenes and group play. Like I just want to keep exploring and see what else I'm into that I don't know about yet, because I'm sure there's more to talk.

01:33:08:15 - 01:33:18:11

Luna

Yes, I totally feel that. Okay, lastly, if you could go back in time and give younger you a piece of sex advice, what age or ages would you pick and what would you say?

01:33:18:13 - 01:33:56:00

Rob

I guess it's along the same lines. And I mean, I, I would probably go to like puberty age when I actually started to understand what sex was until the sexual feelings and started masturbating. Like, I guess it's probably around age 12, 13, 14. And I would just say that, like, everything is normal. Like whatever thoughts you have, feelings you have, it's all normal and okay, and there will be people out there who accept you for whatever it is, and there will be people who don't.

01:33:56:02 - 01:34:26:16

Rob

And that's good to know too. Like I would tell myself not to try to chase what what I considered normal then, because that what's normal is a construct. And the truth about what's normal is that everything is normal. Anything. It's normal. I'm reading come as you are right now, which is really I'm loving it and it's really helping me believe and feel that like, everyone is different.

01:34:26:16 - 01:34:51:00

Rob

And because of that, everyone is the same. Yeah, same parts organized differently. Yeah. And it's that's just such a beautiful concept and so calming and gives me more confidence in myself to just be whatever I am and whatever it is. And there will, there will be people who get that, and who don't stigmatize and shame those things.

01:34:51:00 - 01:35:25:07

Rob

And so, yeah, just to I would tell myself to trust myself more and not be so scared of like what will happen if you share these things or come out because yes, there may be negative feel things that feel negative that happen, but there's so much joy and positivity and expansion on the other side that, like, I'm so much more grateful for the new things I've been able to experience since being more open and honest about myself than I am sad about the things that went away.

01:35:25:09 - 01:35:26:03

Rob

Yeah.

01:35:26:05 - 01:35:37:01

Luna

Before we started recording, you mentioned that you have been doing some coaching stuff with a limited number of people. Is that something you feel comfy talking about here? A little bit? I listen to this and they're like, I want to connect with Rob.

01:35:37:03 - 01:36:04:05

Rob

Absolutely. So the podcast two bad guys turned into this book by sexual married men because I realized so many of our listeners were like around my age or older, many were already married to women, but they didn't have the permission to come out earlier in life. And now that things are sort of changing in terms of our conception of gender, they're just starting to confront this stuff now.

01:36:04:10 - 01:36:24:12

Rob

So that was kind of why I wrote the book. And then as I wrote the book, which is an oral history, so it's 13 interviews with by men who are or were married to women. I interviewed them, and so many of them said afterwards, like, it was so helpful to talk to you like I learned so much about myself by answering the questions you ask.

01:36:24:12 - 01:36:52:11

Rob

Yes. And I was like, that's weird that I helped them. Like they were helping me to write this book. Like, how was I helping them? And then the more I thought about that and learned about what coaching is, the more I realized, like I was kind of coaching them without realizing it, just by being curious and by asking them open ended, empowering questions that caused them to reflect and gain awareness.

01:36:52:13 - 01:37:15:10

Rob

And so I started to realize, like, awareness is so fundamental and so important, and it's like step one to working through any of these identity or relationship issues. So then basically I went to this training program called iPAC because I decided that, you know, the TV industry is kind of fucked right now. And and I'm doing this work anyway.

01:37:15:10 - 01:37:36:07

Rob

I might as well learn how to do it better and get paid for it. And so I did this eight month training with iPAC. I learned I got certified to be a coach and I realized how naturally it came. I was already sort of in that work. And so now I can coach anyone I know how to do it for.

01:37:36:09 - 01:37:57:13

Rob

I can coach you on, you know, like eating late at night and you don't want to. I can coach you on anything. But most of my clients at the moment are by men struggling with identity or relationship issues. And, you know, I just have a lot of experience and knowledge about that stuff and, and know good things to ask.

01:37:57:13 - 01:38:16:05

Rob

And I follow the, the client and their energy. So, so anyway, long story short, if you're interested and you can read my book and if you're interested in learning more and working with me Robert Brooks co and.com and all the info is there. And I do group coaching and private one on one coaching.

01:38:16:06 - 01:38:28:08

Luna

Awesome and lovers. You can also follow him on Instagram at Robert Brooks Cohen or at two. Bye guys. Maybe both of them go follow him. Rob, thank you so much for being a guest on Sex Stories.

01:38:28:10 - 01:38:38:10

Rob

Yeah, thank you so much. It's really nice to be on the other side of it. And you really has two basic questions I learned. I learned some new things about myself from this as well.