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40 bisexual cis male, single, monogamous, working in accounting, Los Angeles-based, into: affection, companionship, playfulness, oral, doggy

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00:00:00:04 - 00:00:27:17

Luna

And our guest today is a 40 year old Swiss bi male who is single with monogamous leanings, who has not yet been in a relationship but enjoys safely playing the field. In his explorations, he is into affection, companionship, playfulness, receiving oral and being able to do doggy style while laying down. I love that doggy. He is generally open to ideas that do not involve a lot of equipment, and appreciates acknowledging the ridiculousness of sex while having a good laugh about it.

00:00:27:20 - 00:00:37:12

Luna

And if you're funny and energetic, then I'll totally do it. He is someone that I know rather intimately and works in accounting. Living in Los Angeles, California. Welcome, Roy.

00:00:37:14 - 00:00:40:05

Roy

Good evening. Well, thank you for having me on.

00:00:40:07 - 00:00:57:21

Luna

I am so excited to have you here. Can you please start off by telling our sweet listeners, if you had to rate yourself on a sexual shaming meter right now, today, with ten being the most full of shame and zero being, I don't even have any shame at all. Where do you fall right now and why?

00:00:57:23 - 00:01:16:10

Roy

Put me down for two and a quarter. Now, how did I get that number? I couldn't tell you, but I could say that I'm not shameless. I'm not an exhibitionist, so I don't. And I do respect the laws of the land when it comes to indecent behavior. Naturally, I'm not going to go run around and, you know, pound it for the public to see.

00:01:16:16 - 00:01:37:16

Roy

Obviously, I'm being wildly, exact and wildly exaggerating, but the fact is, is that if there is something that I do not want to do, it's either because I don't have an interest in it, or, if there's something I want to do, it's because I don't have any ability to access it or know where to go. So that's really what it comes down to.

00:01:37:16 - 00:02:01:16

Roy

And I could say that that shame meter used to be a lot higher. Because of initial reluctance and really a lack of maturity. And you know, I'll go on to that with my my life story, as it were. And you know, that's really it. And it's not, you know, I've, you know, I'm a listener to the show and, you know, I know a lot of people have a lot of different backgrounds and, you know, stories, things like that.

00:02:01:16 - 00:02:34:01

Roy

And, and I know for myself initially, you know, when I first listened to the show, I thought, oh, you know, my life story isn't that complicated. Well, not necessarily, but it's not, as, you know, wild and crazy. But I think in overall it's lens, right? The fact is, is that not everyone has, you know, it does all the, you know, gets under all kinds of crazy, you know, sexual adventures or isn't able to or just doesn't have the, you know, the network or the interest in, you know, it's not just that, but, you know, we've had you know, you know, we've spent and had our time together.

00:02:34:03 - 00:02:50:18

Roy

And, you know, it's incredibly memorable. I, you know, and, you know, I know we'll go into that further. But, once again, thank you for having me on. And I want to mention one other thing. The the alias Roy. It's not, you know, I do work, and I do have a, you know, corporate life, but it's not from succession.

00:02:50:20 - 00:03:13:13

Roy

It's a die hard reference. Okay. I will warn the listeners out there that I will have a lot of TV and movie references. Yes. Because that is basically how I live my life. So that's, you know, I just I tend to live vicariously through others and also just, I tend to do things on my own and a lot of that can end up being, you know, watching TV and movies throughout my life.

00:03:13:13 - 00:03:31:20

Roy

So, you know, if you're not used to that, folks, I am going to warn you, that's how I'm going to compare two. So get ready for that as well. I love that. Yes. No. What are you going to say? I was going to say do. Making up for a lack of actual experience. No. Or attempts.

00:03:31:22 - 00:03:47:11

Luna

Okay. I was actually about to commend you for, in my opinion, when I say being brave. It's kind of a funny word, but, you know, I will reveal to our listeners that I encourage you to come on. And you're like, no, I don't know. I don't know if I have enough stories. I was like, excuse me.

00:03:47:11 - 00:03:49:09

Roy

I have at least a little bit of stories I happen.

00:03:49:09 - 00:04:16:18

Luna

To know. And, you know, I do encourage people to apply because I think all of our stories are very interesting, even if they're not like the craziest, wildest sex stories. Sometimes I think the more just thoughtful reflections and intimate personal parts. I personally never cease to be super fascinated. So I'm very, very curious to hear all of your all of your references and, damn, it kind of makes me miss film school, so.

00:04:16:21 - 00:04:35:03

Luna

Okay. Before we get into all of your details, I want to stay on the subject of shame just a little bit as you reflect on your life. I want you to tell us kind of the outlines of your personal shame or coaster and or if there are any other contexts right now where you find yourself like going up or down, shame wise.

00:04:35:05 - 00:04:59:13

Roy

Well, certainly, I think the, the, you know, going back to, you know, you know, my, you know, childhood and all that, you know, and I'm a bit older, about like five years older than you are. So there's some similarity in the generation for me. I didn't have, especially when I was younger. You know, sex was not something, you know, I knew how what sex was even when I was, you know, a little kid because I used to watch, like, married, with children.

00:04:59:13 - 00:05:16:22

Roy

And they would talk about, you know, our wanting to have sex, and he doesn't want to have sex with his wife. And I knew you did something in the bed, but I didn't know know what the act was, and I didn't actually know what the you know, what you actually did until seventh grade, sex it. And I was middle school, of course.

00:05:16:22 - 00:05:42:18

Roy

And I remember we were shown a video of basically, it was almost like a film strip of just showing the anatomical way, you know, the penis goes in the vagina, and then there's ejaculation, things like that. Now, I didn't have the maturity for that, so I freaked out in class. And then, I think I just I don't remember if I ran out, but I remember telling my folks, and I want to be clear in regards to my background, you know, because again, I listen, I do this in the show.

00:05:42:18 - 00:06:06:13

Roy

I didn't come from necessarily any, you know, background of any. You know, I, I'm of, Jewish descent and that's, you know, my background and I've lived in L.A. all my life. My parents were not necessarily hard liners in any way. We were really secular. My dad was a somewhat of a reactionary conservative, but mainly due to, you know, wanting to stick it to his parents.

00:06:06:15 - 00:06:30:06

Roy

But he didn't, preach anything. And in generally the way it was with my parents was that there was openness, but you had to communicate it, and they weren't necessarily going to be the ones that were going to communicate. I mean, I remember when I was 15, I was already going to counseling because my parents were divorcing and they divorced when I was 17.

00:06:30:06 - 00:06:48:20

Roy

And I remember having this one day talking to the counselor. I was just freaking out about the idea of sex and like, I just was. I can't explain it, but I remember wanting to have my dad in the session and we did talk about it. I don't know why the idea of just having sex, just because I guess it represented, you know, big moment in one's life.

00:06:48:20 - 00:07:06:15

Roy

And it was just, you know, I don't know what frightens me about it, but I couldn't explain it. But I wanted him there to talk about and we did talk about it. And, so if there was such a, you know, if I had, you know, such questions, I could definitely ask them. But they were not encouraged, nor were they discouraged.

00:07:06:15 - 00:07:29:18

Roy

I mean, goodness, you know, you'll enjoy this. I remember wanting these tapes from blockbuster because it was the era was the late 90s that were like the I remember exactly what they were. They were these Playboy produced, you know, Candid Camera knockoff tapes with like, these, you know, silly sexual situations. You could see them on like, like, you know, Pornhub or X tube things like that.

00:07:29:18 - 00:07:46:05

Roy

They're there around. And these were tapes that you could necessarily rent if you were underage. So I had to ask my, you know, I knew I was gonna have to ask my mom to rent them for me, and I'd give her the money. So I told her, mom, you know, I just said, you know, on pleasuring myself, I remember exactly what I said to her.

00:07:46:07 - 00:08:05:22

Roy

Could you please rent me these tapes? And, you know. And she said, oh, that's okay. You know, I'm a my mother, you know, my mother, you know, worked as a nurse, for 40 years. And then, you know, both my mother and father, you know, grew up in New York City and were in there, you know, came of age in New York City in the 1970s.

00:08:06:00 - 00:08:25:23

Roy

So I kind of wonder what, like, what crazy shit they must have seen in their time. So it's not you got to ask consent. No no no no no no. There's two instances that. See, my dad wouldn't talk about it. Except for one time. He told me he used to work as a projectionist in the 1970s. And he told me the story once and only once of how he worked in a porn theater.

00:08:25:23 - 00:08:44:14

Roy

I think he even claimed, like it was the porn theater that you see in the movie Taxi Driver that Robert DeNiro takes. Cybill Shepherd to. And he talked about how he really needed to basically take a dump, and he didn't obviously want to sit on the toilet of a men's in the men's bathroom of porn theater. So he squatted.

00:08:44:16 - 00:09:03:05

Roy

He missed, and it landed on the seat, and then he just got the hell out of there. And he never told me that story again. But that would happen with my parents, where I would just be told these bits of information that had no context, and I don't know what brought that on. And then, oh, and then there's one another thing.

00:09:03:05 - 00:09:28:14

Roy

So like I remember I was senior year in high school and, I have I'm one of four. I have one sisters six years younger than me is actually would be the same age as you are. And then I have a sister and brother that are fraternal twins that are nine years younger than me. Oh, and I remember with my younger sister, my mother, just one day I was in high school, told me, your sister got her period, and I got upset by that because I'm like, why did you tell me this?

00:09:28:14 - 00:09:53:09

Roy

I didn't need to know this. I don't want to know about this. I got to were there. So it's just those things that would happen or, you know, being told, you know, I have no preference on who you date. It's okay. Or, you know, just things that would come in. But again, it was never it was very hands off and but it was clear that if the support was needed, it would be there to an extent.

00:09:53:11 - 00:10:17:10

Roy

Yeah. Ultimately, you know, it's just my parents were not that close and there was kind of a lot of disconnect. On the other hand, again, I was not oppressed, in any way in terms of what I wanted to do. And quite honestly, I mean, I remember, you know, I sometimes wonder about my dad and I wonder what he was doing, but I was never going to ask him, you know, about, you know, like his time when, you know, he would, you know, live in Chelsea.

00:10:17:11 - 00:10:37:19

Roy

I remember, like when we were renting it when I was renting my apartment the first time he told me, yeah, I went abroad for support in like 75 and Christopher Street for $175 a month. So quite the break. But I also wonder, like, well, that's Chelsea and like you would always talk about going to like gay discos and I don't know what he was doing, but he was always he was never, never homophobic, obviously.

00:10:37:19 - 00:10:58:00

Roy

You know, we would make, you know, we'd have our own, you know, private in-jokes that, you know, today you consider insensitive. But it was never it was never something that was just deemed, as, you know, were you tick you were typically seen as culture war trash today. So I have to say, I mean, so yeah, disconnect. But you did have the freedom and the support if you wanted.

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:04:00

Roy

But generally he was pretty hands off, you know. Yeah.

00:11:04:01 - 00:11:19:06

Luna

I find it so difficult personally to be in a situation where I don't where I don't know what to do if I don't have any examples. Right. Or if I don't have anyone to lead the way. That's also why I like talking to so many different types of people, because it's data gathering. It's figuring out how people like to talk.

00:11:19:06 - 00:11:35:10

Luna

And I know a lot of us kind of got thrown into those situations where it's like, yes, well, I can do whatever I want, but how do I even know how to go for it? So tell us then, how did you end up learning about sex? You had this scary experience in middle school where you ran out, so maybe you didn't get the rest of the lesson.

00:11:35:10 - 00:11:37:19

Luna

Did you have more sex ed after that? Did you ever have like I did?

00:11:37:20 - 00:11:53:20

Roy

I did have more sex ed. You certainly for that seventh grade class, my mother wasn't too keen on me doing it. I think she thought of it more as a maturity thing than a moral matter. Okay, she wasn't going to say that to my face. So instead, I remember just studying, doing like, outside study for like the period of that.

00:11:53:20 - 00:12:04:00

Roy

But I did do sex ed again in high school. And I remember vividly where you were showing pictures of venereal disease. And or STDs or STIs or whatever the hell it's called now.

00:12:04:01 - 00:12:10:19

Luna

And hopefully it stays an infection and doesn't turn into a disease that's catch it, catch it nice and early.

00:12:10:21 - 00:12:42:07

Roy

I'd rather not catch it at all. Yes we do. Yes. But, you know, I remember I think I was a sophomore in high school, and I remember, see, I have obviously I wear glasses in my day to day and I'm pretty damn nearsighted. So in those instances where I'm looking at someone with genital warts, I'm looking above my glasses, as I'm doing now, I know I'm doing a visual gesture for an audio medium and, I, you know, but, it's, you know, I'm just not going to look at someone, someone's general area.

00:12:42:07 - 00:13:02:00

Roy

I think it was a man's, like, just coated in warts, and it just or seeing someone with gonorrhea or things like that. I think it was, at least at that point, it made more sense to go through sex ed. I remember with my mom when I initially had in seventh grade, she was like, I don't want to see the, you know, are they showing pictures of the neural disease?

00:13:02:02 - 00:13:22:17

Roy

To the students, you know, what are they doing? You know, I think again, it goes back to what I, what I infer to be mature. And I just was not of the right sound in my to, to be involved in. I mean, I personally, you know, goodness, I know. So I did it again in, in high school that was and so that made more sense.

00:13:22:19 - 00:13:40:08

Roy

But overall, like, I, I mean, but you know, but it just that was the extent of it with my parents. As for me, I mean, at that point, I know I was masturbating quite a bit naturally, because I'm a teenager and as I would say, a stiff breeze would get me going. But I and I here's thing you'll enjoy.

00:13:40:08 - 00:14:04:11

Roy

I remember the first time I ever came and that was when I was either 14 or 15. I remember exactly what it was too. And again, this will be loaded with movie and TV references. But for those of you who never saw the movie animal House, there's a scene I remember because I watched movies. My dad initially we had it on Laserdisc, of all things, and, there's a scene in there.

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:22:23

Roy

I don't know the actress's name, but it's basically John Belushi goes to spy to basically be a peeping Tom to the sorority at the school. And so he goes up the ladder and he sees these, you know, sorority sisters in their various stages of undress. And they're obviously have their their tits out. And it's pretty hot and they're pillow fighting.

00:14:23:00 - 00:14:39:14

Roy

And then there's another scene of a woman she's got, like, this green dress on. She was like, coming from, like a bad date. And then, you know, John Blue, she's on this ladder outside. So then he jumps from with the ladder from one window to the next, makes a lot of noise, which adds to the comedy. And because obviously someone would have heard that.

00:14:39:16 - 00:14:55:04

Roy

But you then you see this woman in this green dress taking off her dress, and then you see her in her bra and it's like it's set the early 60s. So it's like this complicated garter. I don't know what the hell. It's like a painting or if it's a penny, she'll I don't know what the hell it is, but it's like.

00:14:55:06 - 00:15:03:11

Roy

Like, do you ever see the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Oh, yeah. Okay, so you know that thing that Janet's got in the lower half? I mean, I say, this is a man I don't know. I mean, it's not just panties.

00:15:03:11 - 00:15:07:05

Luna

It's like a like a bustier. Is it on the torso? I can't I'm not a.

00:15:07:06 - 00:15:17:00

Roy

I'm not talking about the top, I'm talking about that. But someone is probably screaming at me right now just listening to saying identifying what the garment is. But see, I don't cross-dress, so I.

00:15:17:03 - 00:15:20:19

Luna

I prefer to be naked. So I don't know the names of clothes either.

00:15:20:19 - 00:15:28:17

Roy

It's like it, it's it's the kind of gear that you would wear, like on top of your panties. On top, you would hook your pantyhose into.

00:15:28:17 - 00:15:30:06

Luna

Yeah, yeah. Garters.

00:15:30:07 - 00:15:49:07

Roy

I guess. Okay. Okay. It's not just the garter belt, but I digress. It's more stuff. So she takes for. Yeah, it's a lot of equipment. So. And so she takes you know there's like this you know very nice little, you know music. And then she like, you know starts touching her chest and then she takes off her bra and then you see her full frontal.

00:15:49:07 - 00:16:08:12

Roy

But it's a little bit blocked by the window. And then she's like, she like, lowers her like panties just a bit. I guess that's what I'm referring to. It is because I don't know what that is. But like that she like, is like kind of touching your, your stomach. And then there's like a scene. It cuts back to John Belushi when he goes, he's kind of like, what's going on here?

00:16:08:14 - 00:16:30:13

Roy

And then you see her again, a visual gesture for an audio medium. I didn't understand what she was saying at the time, but basically she's about to masturbate. She takes like, her fingers and she's about to masturbate. I didn't know what that was at the time. Yeah, but it looked really sexy. And, Yeah, I didn't come when I saw it with my dad, naturally, but I remember I want to rewatch it because I was really turned on.

00:16:30:15 - 00:16:43:23

Roy

And so I remember that night, I think it was New Year's Eve or something. We may have a New Year's, and I was wearing at the time. I used to wear like, pajamas, button down pajamas, and I remember just wanting to watch that or, you know, just that's that sequence again and again. You know, I just really liked it.

00:16:44:01 - 00:17:02:14

Roy

And then I knew I got hard because obviously I'd seen the scene prior and then, you know, I watched it like a couple more times and just, you know, you would do this when you had VHS, you just rewind it again and again. But this is Laserdisc, which was like a DVD at the time. And then I felt something, you know, happened.

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:26:21

Roy

And then suddenly my pajama bottoms are soaked and I'm like, did I just come? Like, what? What happened? Because at that time I'm like, I knew what masturbating was, but I didn't know what you needed to do to actually come. Yeah, I see this, even though obviously the internet was a thing at the time. Yeah. And my dad was even a follower of Dan Savage, and I knew all these things, but I didn't know what you were supposed to do because actually, you're not going to ask your parents, like.

00:17:26:23 - 00:17:45:14

Roy

Right? Yeah. Did, help me? How do I, you know. Com exactly. So I'm not going to do that. Yeah, yeah. And, but that happened then I'm like, my pants, my pajama bottoms are soaked, and, like, did I. Now I gotta run over to the guest bathroom that we had, off to the kitchen and, like, try to clean this up somehow.

00:17:45:14 - 00:18:01:23

Roy

I think. And that's what I realized. I think I did just, I did they just actually come for the first time and I did that without like, any stimulation to, you know, without like, you know, putting my, you know, my dick in my hand and work on the town. It just went. And that's actually how I thought you masturbate.

00:18:01:23 - 00:18:18:04

Roy

So that's what I would do. I would take that. I then made a tape from that Laserdisc, and then I would watch, you know, watch, you know, that scene. There's a couple of nude scenes and anyone else and I would just like watch it again and again and again until I came. And then I really, you know, then I eventually figured out you're supposed to touch yourself.

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:22:14

Luna

And I mean, there's no supposed to. It's a lot of good ways. That's so.

00:18:22:14 - 00:18:40:07

Roy

Cool. Yeah, that happened to me. And that's really like one of the only I think that's really the only time I can ever say that I watched something where I actually came. But again, it wasn't just like once I had no, I know I definitely had scenes where like, yeah, I'm totally turned on right now and I'm yeah, I'm rock hard.

00:18:40:12 - 00:18:58:03

Roy

But other than that, I'd never like, you know, it's not like a joke you would see in movies where, like, the guy just instantly comes like, right then and there. That's never happened, okay? And I could certainly say that's not so much the issue. You know, I don't do that now. But yeah, I would do that. I would rent like this was the era where you would get like rent.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:15:18

Roy

I'd rent softcore tapes from blockbuster because I could there's like a bunch of them and like there was one that didn't care. I remember it was like Eros Productions or like the films, and that was like the those were ones where I knew I'd get like, good soft corner, because that's the thing blockbuster would definitely do, censorship.

00:19:15:20 - 00:19:36:22

Roy

But you would get, you know, good softcore, you know, tech where there's like, you know, it was obviously topless and there's people having sex and then maybe some lesbians. I remember a movie called Corporate Fantasy. That was when I bought the tape for or another one called Testing the Limits. And I bought the VHS that was basically like my spank bank is I'll say this about my dad as well.

00:19:37:00 - 00:19:56:09

Roy

My dad was, a good repository of movie nudity as well. And he could tell me exactly what actress was naked and what movie. I'm not kidding. And he would actually make comments about like, yeah, that was a by double or. Yeah, that was, you know, you know, that's a thought. You know, those are implants or things like that.

00:19:56:09 - 00:20:14:12

Roy

My dad would openly talk about that kind of thing. I just didn't know. Yeah. You know so that's the other thing that he would do. So again he was forward thinking in that way. I just want to wind it back to that other point. But it was not necessarily applicable to like, you know, saying, you know, when you go out there and meet a woman, you're going to do this or that or the other thing.

00:20:14:12 - 00:20:36:00

Roy

Again, it was never communicated, but that was what I did. And, you know, until, you know, I'm off to college and being able to download, you know, internet pornography from Kazaa because it was the stuff at the time. Yeah. And that's when I discovered the, you ever heard of the male funnel that was, you know, it's pretty gross.

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:53:06

Roy

So, you know, I'll talk about this briefly. So the mill funnel was this, you know, kind of unkempt guy with the goatee Indiana wine shirt. And they would do, like, these staged events where he would meet the mILF. And, those are not I mean, it was something to see that was hard work. That was definitely hardcore stuff.

00:20:53:06 - 00:21:10:00

Roy

And I was not used to actually seeing basically a tickle in the vagina and, you know, go to town, also see a vagina up close and that, you know, that for something for me was always, you know, not necessarily easy to look at because I just wasn't used to it. Oh. But, you know, that was the other thing I looked at.

00:21:10:00 - 00:21:28:15

Roy

And then, you know, again, I would just, you know, find, you know, scenes from movies that I, you know, of nude scenes that I want to see and just, again, just go masturbate constantly. So that was basically my college life. But in terms of like, dating or anything like that, I didn't do anything and I didn't have I mean, part of this is my personal life.

00:21:28:15 - 00:21:44:07

Roy

I went to two different high schools when I, you know, because of after my parents divorce and I didn't really have a chance to set down roots. And on top of that, like, I mean, if I didn't talk about all this masturbation, you would look at me and probably think I was just an asexual person because I just didn't.

00:21:44:09 - 00:21:59:09

Roy

I didn't pursue women. I didn't have women approach me. I didn't find any more attractive. And quite in retrospect, I probably had crushes on some some of the boys and in the classes I had, but I just didn't put two and two together. And I'll talk about that as we go. We get that.

00:21:59:11 - 00:22:16:20

Luna

Well, before we go any further, I would love to hear specifics of how you like to touch yourself. You know, on the topic of masturbation, like what are your favorite ways to pleasure yourself? What do you like to do? Tell us the specific sensations on your cock, what your balls are like. I can help you if you need.

00:22:16:22 - 00:22:30:05

Roy

No, I'm good with that. I like using my left hand. I know, like when I would hear, like as just like people, you know, you'd hear comedians talking about it. They would use their right. I don't like the sensation of my right hand hitting the head of my penis.

00:22:30:05 - 00:22:32:07

Luna

Okay, we are you. Right? What's your dominant?

00:22:32:08 - 00:22:51:05

Roy

I am my dominant hand is my right. Okay, but I've always used my left. Oh, and I just. It feels more natural to me. And I'll use my right to maybe, you know, cradle my balls. And then, just like I used to be more a little bit more forceful on them, however, you know, touch, you know, my balls.

00:22:51:05 - 00:23:03:11

Roy

But I got hit with testicular torsion when I was 15, and I didn't want to, you know, mishandle the merchandise and definitely not want to be having my nuts crushed. So. No, no.

00:23:03:11 - 00:23:05:10

Luna

Well, some people don't do it, but it's a very.

00:23:05:13 - 00:23:25:05

Roy

Some people are into it. Yeah. Yeah I know I'm not going to tell them what not to do. It's none of my business and I'm not impacted on the deal. But it is not for me. And, you know, for a long time, goodness, I would just do it dry and I would masturbate dry. And then because I didn't understand, like, why you would use lube like that seems very natural.

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:41:01

Roy

Then I realized, I think I developed a callus on my penis, and then I got it. I got to really start to figure out something else that went away eventually. Okay. But that's really it. Like, I never, like, did anything crazy where I would try to insert something up my ass or put a finger up my nose or not.

00:23:41:01 - 00:23:57:00

Roy

Once, that's happened to me when I was with, other men. Yeah. And, but but leading up to that by myself. Leading up to let. No. Okay, okay. Oh, cool. The. No. Oh. Okay. Yeah. So it's not really not much to it.

00:23:57:02 - 00:24:15:11

Luna

Great. I mean, it's it's always good to know details. And I think that little detail is very interesting. So okay, so you learned through a number of different methods. Did you do any like extra research. Like what what kind of came next in your sexual learning journey? Formative experiences?

00:24:15:12 - 00:24:33:07

Roy

I mean, in college, like I would you know, I remember, you know, I'd go with my roommate, you know, we had a good, you know, friendships at the time. We went to strip clubs twice. This is like 20 some odd years ago now. And I remember being blown away by it. I remember getting a full nude lap dance by a woman with three piercings on her labia.

00:24:33:09 - 00:24:48:07

Roy

Ooh, now this is pretty. This was dark, so I didn't really I wasn't put off by it. And she had told me ahead of time and I said, well, I'm being fairly liberal minded. It doesn't bother me. And we ended up like me being me. At the time, we used to talk about, like, going to community college.

00:24:48:07 - 00:25:08:15

Roy

I kid you not. And, I did that twice. I spent a lot of money. But I never went back on it. And because it was fun for what it was, there was the novelty of it. But once you've had your share of, you know, lap dances and you know how things work, there's nothing to do beyond it.

00:25:08:15 - 00:25:25:09

Roy

I haven't been to strip clubs since, and I've periodically thought about it because I would have occasionally friends that would come by out of state, and they talk about going to a strip club and like, I don't want to do it. And, I just remember this is just the random advice my father would give me. Like, yeah, don't go in there wearing sweatpants.

00:25:25:09 - 00:25:46:16

Roy

Otherwise the vice squad will catch you. You talk about this vice squad, but basically getting arrested for, like, for indecent exposure and, or use the ATM at a strip club. Don't do that either. Now, I don't know if my dad went to strip clubs. I have no idea. He never talk about it, obviously, but it would just be these pieces of advice I would get randomly and but I did.

00:25:46:16 - 00:26:08:05

Roy

So I did that. And then I would just, just again go, you know, occasionally I remember, like looking for nude scenes from, like, The Howard Stern Show. And this is still, you know, and it was still there wasn't a lot video was still kind of difficult. And then, I mean, I didn't have this was that was really it.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:29:20

Roy

There wasn't a whole lot to it. Again, even in college, I wasn't dating. And it just although let me walk that back because that's actually where I lost my virginity. I was 20, okay. And I remember at that point I was going I was into the goth industrial scene. I know, again, visual gesture for an audio medium. I don't look like a hair.

00:26:29:21 - 00:26:44:18

Roy

I was that part of that scene. I did not really paint, I didn't I wasn't doing gestural music at the time. Okay, although I joke that I was probably 15 years too late for that scene when I arrived, but I enjoyed. I learned about it from a coworker because I wanted to go. I wanted to go clubbing, and I ended up there.

00:26:44:20 - 00:27:08:16

Roy

So I remember this, you know, I saw this, and for a year prior to me losing my virginity, I desperately wanted to get laid. I would not start talking about it. I mean, it was an era of still gross out, still the gross out comedy. Yeah. And you're like, the guy is gone late. What's wrong with him? And, you know, and you're a virgin, you know, and and, you know, my behavior was of milkshakes.

00:27:08:18 - 00:27:24:02

Roy

Okay, I'm not going to. I will say that of everything that's happened, especially in the past few years, I can look at, you know, look at my behavior and just observe, like, you know, was that appropriate or things like that. And it was kind of gross. And, you know, it's a good learning experience. But I mean, I'm not going to passwords.

00:27:24:02 - 00:27:45:23

Roy

My behavior at the time was incel like. And I was just just it was a noxious thing. And because I would not stop complaining about not about not getting laid and just how I hate it, you know, I was in a relationship, but I can't get in a relationship. I don't have a girlfriend. And I met this woman at this, industrial club one night, I remember her.

00:27:45:23 - 00:28:08:00

Roy

I'm not going to name her, obviously. And we have not been in contact really, ever since that time, since, like 2004. And we met. She was seven years older than me, and we went. I remember the date we went on. I talked, actually told her look and had sex before and I really want to have sex. And she was she, you know, jokingly laughed, not insultingly, but, you know, she thought I was, you know, how fun it was.

00:28:08:04 - 00:28:13:21

Roy

Yeah. To be around her, you know. You know that it was going to be my first time. She was basically forward thinking.

00:28:13:23 - 00:28:16:15

Luna

Yeah. That's vulnerable of you to share also.

00:28:16:17 - 00:28:36:10

Roy

Oh, totally. Look, I mean, that's the thing. At least I can say that throughout my track record is that of oversharing and then learning how to dial that back, but also be willing to communicate what it is that you want to do, what I want to do. And unfortunately, English being the language that it is, it is not.

00:28:36:12 - 00:28:53:14

Roy

It doesn't come off, you know, that. Nice. But I'll go on for let me continue on with the story. So we I remember, you know, we got to have, you know, we had sex in my dorm and I remember, you know, we did it with the lights on. I remember like previously, she never a handjob. She I asked her if she could get naked for me.

00:28:53:14 - 00:29:04:12

Roy

She don't want to do it. So I said, well, you want to? I'll get naked if you can, you know, be topless. And, you know, I kind of retrospect, I don't that bargaining may have been kind of not proper but.

00:29:04:14 - 00:29:06:10

Luna

We don't know. Don't know.

00:29:06:12 - 00:29:28:06

Roy

Correct. But, you know, I remember we had sex. We had sex with the lights on. And I remember I was so grateful that I cried, I didn't ball, but I was crying tears of joy. I was so happy that I had finally lost my virginity at 20. Yeah, that I couldn't believe that I had gotten it done.

00:29:28:06 - 00:29:47:04

Roy

And then we kind of fling a little bit after that. I remember that was the first time I had sex in a car. That was really quick. I find that to be uncomfortable. And it was. We did it in a parking structure underneath that particular, like another industrial golf club, like the back of my 2001 Corolla. And we didn't get caught.

00:29:47:06 - 00:30:03:18

Roy

But I just remember being real quick at that because it's quite uncomfortable. I'm not like a really tall guy, but still, it's it's hard to do totally then also. But it's so fun we can't even see like for me, I mean, like, I want to be able to enjoy myself and take my totally.

00:30:03:18 - 00:30:19:07

Luna

So I think I only think it's fun because of the fast sneaking it like in, in a world where I also have access to lots of other sex. I of course want to have the other sex more often than the weird, uncomfortable quickie car sex, for sure. But, you know, we can appreciate all of it.

00:30:19:09 - 00:30:29:02

Roy

Oh, we can appreciate it, sure. But for me, it's like I want to be able to enjoy myself. Yes. I don't, you know, it's kind of like the mile high club thing where you're, like, supposed to fuck in an airport. And every.

00:30:29:02 - 00:30:32:16

Luna

Time I look at them, they look so small and they seem really.

00:30:32:16 - 00:30:33:05

Roy

Uncomfortable.

00:30:33:05 - 00:30:43:06

Luna

So full of germs, like just so many. The number of people, I just watch them go in and out and I'm like, when would I even get a moment for these people not to notice? I don't know, not got it. Just like.

00:30:43:08 - 00:31:07:09

Roy

I guess. But not only that, there's just no room to maneuver. So it's like, what kind of experience is this? So yeah, but to me, I want to take my time. I don't like I'm not an exhibitionist where I want to just, you know, fucking in public just to, you know, because am I getting off with my partner or am I getting off on the fact that I could be busted and I'd rather be getting off with my partner than.

00:31:07:10 - 00:31:21:15

Roy

Yeah, wondering if I'm going to be dealing with, you know, having to go to court the next day. Yeah, yeah. So that's how I look at it. But you know, and then I had sex standing up. I remember she was on top of a, you know, chest of drawers in my dorm. We went, you know, we went to town and that was fun.

00:31:21:15 - 00:31:42:22

Roy

But other than that, you know, and then things kind of went by the wayside. Then for a year, nothing happened. And then I met another, you know, woman, you know, one of those club nights. And that was really fun. And, you know, but she told me she just wanted to have a fling. I got upset because I thought, oh, someone cares about me.

00:31:42:22 - 00:32:01:01

Roy

She cares about me. And it's like, oh, now I got to go back to, you know, square one. I don't want to do that. And like, you know, naturally, I got upset. I mean, I was 22 at the 21. Yeah, I was 21 going to be 22. And again, gross behavior not, you know, not not in the way an adult should behave.

00:32:01:01 - 00:32:28:02

Roy

And then I discovered being bi, I developed a crush on a photographer of one of these industrial clubs. He had this really androgynous look. Now in retrospect, it's a ridiculous look. Again, I'm going to describe something visual here. You kind of had like he had like basically I just remember it was that time of emo and there was a kind of now you would notice, like the Karen haircut, where it's like at the swoop in the front and spiked in the back area.

00:32:28:02 - 00:32:36:06

Roy

And he was in her and his hair was red. Actually, in retrospect, now I think that he looked absolutely ridiculous. He was that kind of look that just drove me wild.

00:32:36:06 - 00:32:38:02

Luna

If it's cute, it's cute. At the time.

00:32:38:02 - 00:32:56:06

Roy

You know what? It was the style at the time. Yeah. And I didn't dress like that, so I didn't like I tried like, when I was going to those clubs, like, I had the clothes. I knew I was going to wear these clothes, like, only once or like, you know, fiddle around with makeup because I knew, again, I wasn't going to do this when I was old.

00:32:56:06 - 00:33:09:01

Roy

I knew full well I was not going to do this when I was older, but I didn't know how to use makeup. I remember I just screwed around and went to a Rite Aid. I bought it, like a compact, a foundation, but I don't know what the hell you're supposed to do with it. So I'm like, it's powder.

00:33:09:03 - 00:33:26:16

Roy

What do I do with it? And then I just, I just briefly put it on my face. I'm like, well, this looks stupid. I can't do anything with this. There is another guy. He he would have this look of like an anime character with like, this, this. He had his hair done up, like in a sneaker pimp style with like they were like little like, look like little dreads.

00:33:26:16 - 00:33:44:22

Roy

And he had this, like, makeup over his eyes, and he looked so fucking cool and pretty much. Hi. I'm like, I wanted to look like that. And I had a this girl made me look like that one for my birthday once. It was really awesome, but it really hard to dance with the paper mask and then. But overall I had it doll to crush.

00:33:45:00 - 00:34:15:03

Roy

I remember feeling really emotional about that, you know, having feelings for another man. I didn't come out to my parents. I remember going to like the, the local LGBT group that was on campus. I tried that, I didn't like it because what I discovered at the time was that it wasn't really about supporting one's needs and, you know, dealing in sexual feelings and, you know, being supportive was more about people exercising their political grievances.

00:34:15:05 - 00:34:34:11

Roy

And naturally, this is more, you know, leftist. And at the time, I didn't agree with them. Again, like I was telling some political line, but I just thought, I thought we were here to support each other in our sexual orient and discover sexuality. Not this is the era of George W Bush. You know, we're Marc and rant about, you know, the politics of the day.

00:34:34:13 - 00:34:54:13

Roy

Yeah. And that turned me off. I remember going to a support group at the LA Gay and Lesbian Center. I was down in Hollywood, which is a beautiful center. It was like a bi support group. I was one of three people. I was the only young person there. And like, this wasn't going to work at all. So there wasn't really an avenue there.

00:34:54:15 - 00:35:15:16

Roy

But eventually I knew that being, like, going to those goth industrial clubs wasn't the place to, you know, try to meet other men. And, I just I was done with this, I just don't I was bored and, you know, I just I had to move on. I told Mike that that photographer, I had a crush on, he told me he was straight, like, oh, that's cool.

00:35:15:18 - 00:35:33:12

Roy

Okay. So good for you. Oh, yeah. No, here's the thing. I look at it this way, and I look at this in retrospect, I do not have a lot of regrets. There have been there are really few, if any moments where it's like, I should have done this thing or that thing or that other thing. There was never a moment where, like, Roy, I love you so much.

00:35:33:12 - 00:35:56:11

Roy

I want you to be with me for the rest of my life. I don't want to do it. It was never nothing like that. And so I went, you know, like anyone in Los Angeles, when you're, you know, young and gay and you're not a bear, you go to Wausau. So I did that. I remember going in 2006 or like around 2005, 2006, and that's when I did that for pretty much like ten years now.

00:35:56:13 - 00:36:18:13

Roy

More like eight. And I remember having gay friends and I used to call them my posse dollar for dollar tacos out in Burbank. And we would go to what was then called rage, which was a dance club on Santa Monica, and then go to the motherlode and have, you know, go drink before. I'd have my friend, you know, the bartender there.

00:36:18:13 - 00:36:40:07

Roy

And he was a really good, nice guy. We'd be friends. Nothing happened between us. He's an older man, and occasionally I would find a guy I would make out I never bombed. I did tarp a couple of times, and then I would get fingered. And I distinctly remember some guy tried to finger me with two fingers. I got hemorrhoids as a result of that in 2008.

00:36:40:09 - 00:36:46:09

Roy

Oh no, I mean nothing to it. No, I learned my lesson. I learned my lesson on that. And did you mean to tell.

00:36:46:09 - 00:36:48:13

Luna

You he didn't use lube on, you.

00:36:48:15 - 00:36:51:03

Roy

Know, deny it's two fingers to.

00:36:51:03 - 00:36:58:16

Luna

Yeah. I mean, if you if you warm up slow enough, sometimes it can be a thing. But yeah, that's that sucks. That sucks that you know that.

00:36:58:18 - 00:37:16:15

Roy

Well and then I mean, that was certainly a life lesson in between all that. Like I'm looking at that point in my life, I just think we focused on pursuing my interest in it. I don't want to say, you know, and I say that, you know, I kind of understand this is a loaded this is definitely a loaded territory.

00:37:16:17 - 00:37:37:21

Roy

I don't it's not I don't consider myself ex-gay. I it's not like that. I don't ignore what I was interested in, you know, especially in that era. It was like, well, it's by now gay later, and especially for men, it was like, it's one track. Yeah. Later on, when I realized it's like for women, it was like perfectly allowable to go back and forth.

00:37:37:21 - 00:37:53:21

Roy

I'm like, well, men should be allowed to do this and clearly meant, do do this. Yeah, yeah. And but at the end of the day, what I was interested at the time, which was like that, you know, you know, androgynous love like a great example would be like 15 movie Velvet Goldmine. You probably don't have I haven't no.

00:37:53:23 - 00:38:15:22

Roy

Okay, so Jonathan Reese, Mars and Velvet Goldmine, he's clearly playing Bowie in that he looks unbelievable in that, just, you know, it'll stop, you know, stop. You know, goddamn, I say all in, but that's a really difficult look to maintain. And the other thing, you know, and it's really selective. And the other thing is I'm basically want to talk about like pursuing twinks.

00:38:16:00 - 00:38:31:14

Roy

That's the parlance of the time okay. And I wasn't necessarily a twin guy myself. Like it was never an overly macho guy. I still I'm not. Although I remember people telling me at the time when I had gay friends, like, you're the straightest game in we ever knew. I didn't know how to react.

00:38:31:14 - 00:38:35:19

Luna

So interesting. Did you ask them what they meant, or what do you think they meant?

00:38:35:21 - 00:38:53:19

Roy

I think they meant, by the way, I came off because here's the thing. This this complicates, you know, my dating life to this day is that when I'm out and about, I usually come off defensive, because or I'm just focused on what it is I'm doing, or I look like I'm deep in thought. So clearly no one wants to approach me.

00:38:53:21 - 00:39:12:21

Roy

But I know when I was when I was, you know, dating men or pursuing men, rather I was that was Hollywood. I had a type that I was looking for. I didn't want to just fuck anybody. Now, here's the thing. As much as I have had a church, my life has been pretty much a dry spell the entire time with some wonderful, wonderful downpours.

00:39:12:23 - 00:39:31:09

Roy

But, but in general, I had what I thought were standards. I didn't want to just fuck anybody, because if I wanted to fuck anybody, I clearly would've got laid all the time. But I didn't. I didn't want to just give it away. And it wasn't like I wanted to get married. I just legitimately wanted to be attracted to whoever it was I was fucking.

00:39:31:09 - 00:39:50:01

Roy

That's fair. And so therefore I had standards. If some guy told me I want he wanted to suck me off, I'm like, no. And the other thing is that, you know, I'm I'm severely nearsighted. So if I take off my glasses and I didn't and at the time I did wear contacts, I don't work contacts now, but it's hard for me to see.

00:39:50:01 - 00:40:07:12

Roy

So either I'm squinting or I'm not looking at anybody. Combined with the fact throughout my life which said an eye contact problem, which is not a medical thing, it's just a behavior thing. And I just wouldn't look at people when I spoke to them. Sometimes it's, you know, it just it was just habit. It's just a bad habit.

00:40:07:14 - 00:40:30:20

Roy

And I just just not come off as appealing. And I got, you know, so I had these. And so that's why like, rarely, if ever I had you know, a guy, you know, anyone approach me or that I would find attractive or work out like I remember once this was 2006, I was on a date. This is when I actually I did I did come out to my parents at this time because I it was a date that failed.

00:40:30:21 - 00:40:47:04

Roy

We went and saw Children of Men, not a movie you want to see on a date. And it was clear he wasn't interested. He was going to end things after. And then we went to the aquarium, and I made the mistake of doing funny voices on the date to think I could win them over, which is another disaster.

00:40:47:06 - 00:41:07:04

Roy

I will not, I don't know till you know, you know, but, I was really upset, and I came out to my parents, and I asked my mom that thought asked me it was a phase and said, I don't think so, but I never came up again. I didn't tell my parents what I was doing, except for like, one other time where I'd asked my mom if I was still under her insurance.

00:41:07:04 - 00:41:31:09

Roy

Because this is the one shortcoming and I'm lucky that nothing ever, nothing ever bad happened and nothing bad happened because I have been tested, you know, since, I used to, you know, do oral and receive oral from men without a condom. And that's, you know, I regret doing that. I remember once I had met this guy, and then I woke up and we woke up together, and I discovered his.

00:41:31:10 - 00:41:45:22

Roy

He had blood in his mouth. I'm like, all right, well, you need to leave and I'll drive you back. And I said to my mom, I just had sex and I had sex with a guy, but, you know, do I go ahead and, you know, you know, am I still under your insurance? And I said, well, what are you doing?

00:41:45:22 - 00:42:06:03

Roy

And then she I know one thing. Before I had my wisdom teeth taken out, I had some, like, real bad gum issues. And then she made some snide remark about my sexual activity. At that time, I didn't say, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but, that is the one. That is, you know, big time mistake I made on my part.

00:42:06:03 - 00:42:27:14

Roy

But again, I was lucky I didn't have anything any repercussions from that. And, you know, got vaccinated for hippie, got vaccinated for HPV when it first came out, and, you know, but use protection ever since. And naturally, if someone asked me to get tested, my no issue doing that. I will go ahead and get it done. It's not a hack, you know, it's it's a necessary thing to do.

00:42:27:14 - 00:42:45:14

Roy

But I'm so infrequent. For example, like, I know you're on prep, I'm not on prep, but if I was sexually active, then I'd be on it. But I'm not going to take something just for the sake of taking it. I'm not. I'm not out there fucking. So what? What's the point? Yeah. So that's kind of how I look at it.

00:42:45:16 - 00:43:08:06

Roy

But you know overall. So I did that. And then I had my various gay friends. But after a while I noticed like the, the men I was attracted to were of certain certain age. I'm getting older, the age there's a bigger and bigger age gap. I think this is kind of I'm not liking this as much. And then the other thing, really, what it comes down to is that I genuinely want to have a conversation with whoever it is.

00:43:08:06 - 00:43:30:03

Roy

I'm, you know, whether I'm in a relationship or I'm just fucking with the, you know, fucking them or something. Absolutely. I want to know who I'm dealing with here. And also, I don't want to seem like I'm talking to like, a wall. And the fact is, you know, people are of a younger age or in that age group, and I just generally was not interested in talking because I wasn't interested in what they had to say.

00:43:30:05 - 00:43:52:00

Roy

And so and I just or it just was just like, there's just no chemistry here. And the fact was, like I said, I just looked at as a value judgment. I just said, I don't like where this is going. It's not sustainable. I feel kind of gross. I'm not really attracted to this anymore. And I don't want to be 20 years older than whoever my partner is.

00:43:52:02 - 00:44:08:20

Roy

And so and the fact was, I was not interested in men my own age. I was not interested in an incredibly macho man. You're bearish otters or whatever the hell you're leather scene. I wasn't interested in that. And so like, this is a dead end and it's just not sustainable. And then I'm like thinking, all right, you know, I'm going to do something.

00:44:08:20 - 00:44:28:14

Roy

I'm going to change things up. And and then I'm like thinking, all right. If I'm, you know, if I'm going to pursue women, like, what am I attracted to? And I took me a long time to figure out. And what I came to realize is that I, you know, speaking of androgyny, I, like a more handsome woman. Doesn't mean that they're, you know, part of the language.

00:44:28:16 - 00:44:52:00

Roy

Dike. I think it's just I like, independent, not necessarily overly feminine. Women especially, you know, it's, you know, that's just I've come to realize that from, like, you know, the ad, you know, if I've watched TV movies and, like, actresses I like, and then what I'd see on through online dating and looking photos and like, all right, I kind of figured this out.

00:44:52:01 - 00:45:18:02

Roy

And it's I want to be clear, I'm not like, I got to be with a woman for the sake, you know, because I'm trying to hide something or I'm trying to go in the closet. It's not that. Again, I'm legitimately. You know, if I wasn't interested in this, I wouldn't be doing I know myself well enough. And that I know, again, it's it's loaded to talk about because I think a lot of men again, from that stigma of like it's by now gay later and that, oh, this, this guy's clearly a closet case or something like that.

00:45:18:02 - 00:45:37:09

Roy

And then there's not enough by sexual minute talk about this and I say bisexual. Now I get it. It changes. It could be panned. It could be whatever I don't necessarily get hung up on. I don't stick to labels so much because they change all the fucking time. The other thing is on War of Deeds, not words kind of guy, because I just again, labels change all the fucking time.

00:45:37:09 - 00:45:40:10

Roy

I can call myself Pan. I mean, to me it doesn't make any difference.

00:45:40:12 - 00:45:55:09

Luna

Well, and it depends on who you're talking to to right. For some people, for some people, those are opposite. For some people there is overlap. For some people there's a different emphasis. And so that's why I'm like, well, yeah, let's have a conversation sort of like label each other and assume we know what those labels mean, or assume we agree on the meaning of those labels.

00:45:55:09 - 00:46:13:13

Roy

So I'm yeah, I mean I'm with you there. It's of my generation ultimately, you know, you do what you want. I'm not harmed by this and I'm not going to be like one of those crusty, you know, guys like, you know, the kids today and all that. It doesn't matter. I really, I sometimes I personally think it's a little superfluous, but, you know, what is my opinion?

00:46:13:13 - 00:46:43:14

Roy

Me absolutely nothing. But in general, you know, I know, you know, from that point on, like, I want to be either dating women or being in a relationship with a woman. I think it's highly unlikely at this point in my life that I would be, you know, have a husband, have a boyfriend, I really do. I mean, it's not what I want, I mean, occasion, look, I mean, there'll be the can there be a moment where I'm like, I think there's a guy that's attractive or am I, you know, completely floored by, you know, just some, you know, hot, you know, hot guy.

00:46:43:14 - 00:47:00:23

Roy

I mean, yeah, I can have I mean, if Timothy me comes to me and actually says, you know, I want you, bro, I want you really? Then I'm like, I say, now you got it for not just for the connection. I'm not going to sit here and think, oh, I'm going to go lust after Timothy Shalini, because I'm like, that's kind of to me, it's just gross.

00:47:01:01 - 00:47:05:04

Roy

And I not going to have a chance with Timothy Shell. Amazing example. Well, you know, like you.

00:47:05:04 - 00:47:20:04

Luna

Never say never. But also I think it's fine to have little crushes and be open. Well, I would love to know about okay, so you're bisexual, but you identify as monogamous. Is that that's like the structure you want. But what if a girlfriend and a boyfriend, you fell in love with them at the same time?

00:47:20:04 - 00:47:46:21

Roy

Magically you. That could be possible. Okay, that could be possible. Look, the way I. The way I classify myself is I do it because that it's not to me, because I did so infrequently. I don't want to come in with a lot of restrictions. And the fact is, is that polyamory naturally requires a lot of ground rules and boundaries, and it's pretty rigid in its structure.

00:47:46:23 - 00:47:52:15

Roy

And so it's been okay. But see, again, you have to lay that stuff down and then.

00:47:52:17 - 00:47:54:23

Luna

Talk about changing all the time.

00:47:55:01 - 00:48:11:10

Roy

Yeah I too yeah. And the fact is, is that if someone like myself who's not dated much, who's never been in a relationship, and granted, am I applying myself, am I trying? No. And that's that's a massive shortcoming of mine. I well, I but hold on though hold on though.

00:48:11:10 - 00:48:30:17

Luna

Let's push let's push back on societal norms for a second. And this is, this is me being a little bit, inserting my own personal commentary, too, because I, I do notice that oftentimes there are narratives in parts of our society, right pockets at least, where success as a human being is defined by whether or not we're in a relationship.

00:48:30:17 - 00:48:50:19

Luna

Right. I'm about to turn 35 and I get a fair number of people that are like, you're so beautiful, you're so smart, you're so intelligent. Why? You're single. Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? And and for me personally, I'm at a point in my life where I'm like, whoa. I live a really satisfying life. I'm just very specific, right?

00:48:50:20 - 00:49:18:12

Luna

Like a I'm a very specific type of person. And so I, I hear everything you're saying, and I don't want to, like, dismiss any of, like, your own personal desires and needs. But, you know, maybe you're not applying yourself to dating, but it also sounds like that's. Yeah, I don't know. You're applying yourself to lots of things, and I want to just also highlight, no, but the self-exploration and the amount of willingness to like, look at yourself and just sort of be like, oh yeah, past me was like that and I've grown since then.

00:49:18:12 - 00:49:28:10

Luna

That's a huge like, I really, really value personal growth and like, like the ability to do that. So I just want to, I want to big you up for that.

00:49:28:12 - 00:49:43:20

Roy

Well, thank you for that. That's very nice of you. And certainly it shows I'm trying to do something right. But the fact is, is that, I mean, for a long time I thought I was going to be perpetually single. I thought, I mean, this is I'm gonna live on my I'm just going to do things on my own, live alone, be a loner.

00:49:43:22 - 00:49:56:21

Roy

And that's just what it is. And that that could very much be what it is in the cards. Granted, when, you know, especially during Covid, during lockdowns, I thought I could do things just live on my own during Covid especially. I'm like, yeah, I can't do this anymore. Yeah.

00:49:56:22 - 00:49:59:07

Luna

And then even I hit my limit.

00:49:59:09 - 00:50:20:03

Roy

Yeah, right. And it didn't help that people were basically using social media as their therapist. And to hear people that legitimately needed help, it just didn't help. But I'm going on off topic, but the fact is, is that, you know, for a long time I thought I could just do things on my own. I thought I could be a workaholic, but the work I do doesn't lend itself to that.

00:50:20:04 - 00:50:37:02

Roy

Again, weird brag. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, goodness, I just I thought I could be one of those, like, characters in movies and TV that could just be subsumed by their work. I legitimately I could, you know, I once applied to be part of the LAPD when I was in college, I took it seriously. I was rightly rejected.

00:50:37:04 - 00:50:52:16

Roy

But the idea of, well, because I envision myself as a detective, but it also know be just be a detective. You have to be a street cop. And especially me back then, and more than likely now, that would not be the case. So there's no way it was that was a that was going to happen. It wasn't a life dream.

00:50:52:16 - 00:51:10:22

Roy

I just did it. But after a while I realized I couldn't make, you know, work my identity and I have to put in some kind of effort. And the fact is, is that, you know, and that's it's it's something I have to deal with to this day. And it's not like I'm pressured to thinking I'm going to get married.

00:51:10:22 - 00:51:26:14

Roy

I mean, let me, let me go back to what I talk about with polyamory. So the reason I bring all this up is the fact that I don't want to go in with such a restricted framework without, you know, at least I got to me. I have to keep things open as possible. If I truly wanted something, I'm going to ask for it.

00:51:26:16 - 00:51:46:22

Roy

But to me, stuff like polyamory, open relationship, to me that's going to be with with whoever what she wants to do because I'm not going to broach her and say, I want this, this and this and this will hold on horse. I'm not in a position to be bargaining here, especially especially because I don't want that kind of relationship.

00:51:46:22 - 00:52:11:04

Roy

I don't want necessarily dominant, domineering relationship. Now, I could be in off someone. I could be, but the way I look at it, maybe that's just my upbringing. I'm not looking to be someone's daddy, and I don't want to dominate. Okay, so, you know, naturally that that doesn't. It's not 100% either way. But I want a woman that's going to complement, you know, complement what I have.

00:52:11:04 - 00:52:28:19

Roy

I thought there was something pretty cool that I learned about that. Like, you know, usually like, people say you want common interests. Obviously you want common interests. But the idea that you want a partner that will complement you, like the introvert, the extrovert, the extrovert and the introvert versus two introverts, two extroverts. I don't self-described myself like that.

00:52:28:19 - 00:52:32:18

Roy

I find it kind of nonsensical, really. But you know, you do. You wait.

00:52:32:21 - 00:52:36:07

Luna

You don't identify as introvert or extrovert.

00:52:36:09 - 00:52:55:01

Roy

I can call myself introverted, but to me it doesn't add any value. So I think I said, all right, so it's an empty gesture. So I don't view it as. And I get why some people do it. They do find it values that it us to who they are. To me it's clearly I understand an introverted like or and if I declare that like so fucking what?

00:52:55:02 - 00:53:14:08

Luna

Oh see for me, people always think I'm an extrovert because I like people very much and I get very excited by them. But I am actually an introvert and I will get totally overwhelmed in like, big, big group situations, you know, almost anywhere just because it's so loud. It's so many things. And so I don't get fueled up by that.

00:53:14:08 - 00:53:29:01

Roy

Personally. I used to do that. I used to be like that. But generally nowadays I do like working groups. And the fact is, is that especially dealing with matters of dating, I at least want to have the ability to, you know, meet and greet other people. Yeah. Because even if I don't, finding it gives me a backup plan.

00:53:29:02 - 00:53:46:00

Roy

If I don't find anyone, if I don't find women attractive, I'll mention something else about formative stuff. Just I want to and then we can talk about the sensory, you know, also, you know, throughout my years, you know, I would, you know, watch porn on, you know, then, you know, the internet finally caught up and, you know, watch porn on the internet.

00:53:46:02 - 00:54:00:00

Roy

I'd watch, you know, especially when I was interested. And then I watch gay porn. Now, I want to mention one thing about watching porn. I would generally pay for my pornography. I know I would get shit from friends of mine, but I, you know, the fact is, I will, I if I can, I will pay for someone's work.

00:54:00:00 - 00:54:20:13

Roy

I generally also don't want to get my I don't want my computer to be infected. And really, I'll say this in all my experiences, you know, using my credit cards on porn sites, I've never been hacked through those sites. I've never had a problem. But I kind of got bored with them because as a man, you know, with two men get together, there's only so much they can do.

00:54:20:13 - 00:54:39:08

Roy

And I'm like, I don't want to see this guy getting ruined. I'm like, or spitting in some guy's asshole. Or again, this is kind of gross. I'm like, I'm like, well, for me, it's it's also like I have no like I always find it's one of the weirdest fucking complaints. It's to me it's bellyaching about like, there's a condom in for.

00:54:39:10 - 00:54:56:08

Roy

And here's the thing I remember watching gay porn. Where there you had to have the condom on. It didn't bother me in the least. And obviously when prep showed up, everything was bareback. And I'm like, I don't really want to watch bareback pornography. I don't really like this. And again, all the men kind of look the same. And it just to me it's again, it's boring.

00:54:56:08 - 00:55:14:15

Roy

And that's another thing that kind of, you know, put me off off to it at least, like with like straight pornography or even like with two women, there's like more atmosphere. It's usually there's more effort, sometimes a shot really nice through. Also the hearing women or women get off. I do enjoy hearing that. It's just the way it builds.

00:55:14:15 - 00:55:28:23

Roy

So your guy guy getting off doesn't it's not the same thing because it's very, you know, it's utilitarian. I'm reminded of like in Seinfeld where they talk about, you know, naked woman in the apartment, fantastic. Naked man, the apartment. Utterly disgusting. Yeah.

00:55:29:02 - 00:55:43:22

Luna

Okay. Can't disagree. Also, no, you make me want to do an experiment where just, like, line up a bunch of dudes and, like, you know, find ways to make them come, ideally in a circumstance where they're comfortable vocalizing and just seeing if there's one of those that eventually you like.

00:55:44:00 - 00:55:51:13

Roy

Well, I mean, I, I mean, there's gotta be a fun experiment, right? It's quite the experiment, I will say. But if you like.

00:55:51:15 - 00:55:54:16

Luna

That one sound okay, let me try on the next one.

00:55:54:18 - 00:56:15:07

Roy

I can tell you it's going to get you ready. It's going to be a lot of, or just like shorter and shorter breathing, but, like, I took pills and then, before OnlyFans took off, there was clips for sale. That was really fun. I hate I tried OnlyFans just as a consumer, I hate it, I honestly, I hopefully they've they've changed the layout.

00:56:15:07 - 00:56:32:14

Roy

I think when I first played fiddle around that the layout, the layout of it reminded me of LinkedIn and there was no what pissed me off the most. There was no search function because yeah, yes, that really annoyed the shit. And because the reason I was looking at OnlyFans is that I did want to look at some transgender pornography.

00:56:32:14 - 00:56:51:03

Roy

I did want to look at that. And also the other thing is a common male thing. It's not, much like to look at pregnant women also, just to see them transform and change. Is something, you know, I say it's not one necessarily of kids, but it is also I just naturally find appealing. I'll mention this one brief aside, I can't match.

00:56:51:03 - 00:57:11:13

Roy

I was not turned on by this. I distinctly remember going through my mother's closet when I was trying to find some papers. I find this photo of my mom naked and pregnant with me in like, almost like a Demi Moore Vanity Fair. Oh my God, look, I'm like, so I didn't say anything, right? Like I'm like, I'm going to pretend I never saw that.

00:57:11:13 - 00:57:34:00

Roy

And, just because my dad was, it was and still is a use a photographer as a hobby. Nothing untoward by that, nothing coded. But I mean, to be clear, but. Okay, I couldn't believe I found that photo. I didn't say anything to my mom, but I just. I couldn't believe that I found that, and, clearly my dad took it, and, it just threw me off that I saw that, but it's.

00:57:34:04 - 00:57:39:22

Roy

I could tell you that watching anything like a pregnant woman is not like. Because of that, it didn't trigger anything.

00:57:40:04 - 00:57:40:18

Luna

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:40:20 - 00:58:02:10

Roy

But that's a common. That's a common thing with men. Total. But and let me. So that's kind of been the formative experience and then I'll wind it up with this in 2021, I finally went out to to, Sheri's ranch in Provo. I finally, you know, for a long time, I thought I was never going to go out and pay for sex or engage with sex worker.

00:58:02:10 - 00:58:17:10

Roy

I don't know why I thought I had my I was being prideful or anything like that, but it was just just, I thought I could make it on my own and clear was not going to make it on my own. And then then after Covid, I'm like, I got to do something, you know, I only get one life here.

00:58:17:12 - 00:58:37:22

Roy

So I went out there. I was familiar with it. I had been familiar with those ranches going back 20 years, and at that point I had the means because I basically had the cash. Yeah. And I knew that. But even if then I knew what I even if I say I ran into a problem or anything like that, I would not.

00:58:37:22 - 00:58:54:22

Roy

I at least knew that I could practice talking. Well, that was that was the critical thing for me, because I've had issues where I've gone on like dating events, things like that, where which have been uttered just disastrous because I could line it, I could size everyone up. I'm like, I don't find these women attractive. Give me the fuck out here.

00:58:54:22 - 00:59:10:22

Roy

I don't want to be, if I can have a good backup plan, if I could do something, I. Then I could feel comfortable with the fact. All right. I didn't get my original tactic, my original thing. But I know I'm going to get something else. I know I could practice talking to women. I could take my time.

00:59:10:22 - 00:59:32:09

Roy

I can just I can enjoy the draw. And it's a beautiful drive. But, you know, I did go out there. I felt incredibly nervous. Also, this is still, you know, there's still nascent going on. This is late 2021. And I had looked at the site, I didn't here's the thing. And I'll say this to anyone who's ever considering going out there, I can't stress this enough.

00:59:32:11 - 00:59:51:03

Roy

Take your time at the bar. Don't do the lineup. I don't even even if I have, there's a cortisol that I have my eye on. I never set up an appointment. I like the spontaneity. I want to have a conversation because I could run into a situation where, like, well, this one's clearly a high piece of ass.

00:59:51:05 - 01:00:08:19

Roy

Oh, no, the personality sucks. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be with her. And then it allows for, you know, you know, things to happen in to see you know, what comes, what things may come. I want to take. I'm not in a rush. Take your time. Take your time in the bar and settle in.

01:00:08:21 - 01:00:38:18

Roy

I cannot stress this enough. I and you know, I was able to, you know, make contact and and, you know, have conversation. And I had a wonderful time and that's where I did missionary. And you know, I got, you know, had a, you know at worlds under me and you know, my I let's I've been to the ranch for the time since then and I know that it's not I could be in a position in my life, with my career, that I could keep that going and probably even make it more frequently.

01:00:38:20 - 01:01:09:11

Roy

But to me, that's not necessarily sustainable. And I know it's it serves up to a point. And what gets me going ultimately is the affection, because ultimately I didn't really get that I was kid. I'm not blaming that. But I want to be, you know, touched and, you know, to be able to embrace and, you know, being able to just even just run my hand, hand through another woman's hair, I really enjoyed doing that's actually I did quite a bit that last time I was there.

01:01:09:13 - 01:01:31:06

Roy

And that was really fun, especially while she's giving me a whirl. And I made sure that I wanted to be clear that I'm not grabbing her hair. Yeah, I'm just going to, like, run. I'm telling her I'm gonna run my hands through my hair because I genuinely don't. I'm not interested in, anything that kind of, you know, like you're caught, you know, you pretend to choke someone or a date.

01:01:31:06 - 01:01:49:18

Roy

You know, I'm not a guy that my needs are basic. Now, here, you know, I could be open to things, but I'm not necessarily going to seek them out if I know I do not want them. You know, I'm not into Bdsm. I'm not interested in being humiliated. I can humiliate myself on my own time very easily.

01:01:49:18 - 01:01:56:19

Roy

I can put myself down very well. I'm not interested in wearing a dog mask. No disrespect to the community.

01:01:56:22 - 01:02:03:14

Luna

I hope you let go of putting yourself down. I've been telling people lately.

01:02:03:16 - 01:02:07:19

Roy

Well, I said that facetiously, I know, but I can't be any hard on myself.

01:02:07:21 - 01:02:27:07

Luna

Exactly. And I think underneath jokes, jokes are jokes because there's always little kernel of truth. And so like lately, if my friends are in self-deprecation mode, I say things very annoying, like, well, in my presence, no one makes fun of my friends, even you. And so my new like kind of hard line is probably the most annoying quality about me.

01:02:27:07 - 01:02:30:10

Luna

But like, I just want you to love yourself.

01:02:30:10 - 01:02:47:06

Roy

In all of the ways. Oh, I agree, I completely agree. It's just to me that it's just I know what I don't want to do. Yeah. And because, I mean, here's the thing. Ultimately, to me, it's just I can't take that kind of stuff seriously because I know you have you can't just be like, be a smart ass where you're getting hit with the cat.

01:02:47:06 - 01:02:50:22

Roy

And I'd say, well, yeah, well, we I have you serious.

01:02:51:01 - 01:03:08:18

Luna

I had my first experience with a cat of nine tails last weekend receiving. I got nipple whips. And so I got, you know, I found a nice top who I and, you know, I was like, he's like, would you want to play? Because I was admiring his new toy and I was like, well, I was like, I've never actually negotiated with someone I just met.

01:03:08:18 - 01:03:24:23

Luna

And then like, gone into a dungeon. You know, he was a friend of a friend and it was at a big event. But I was like, well, let's see. And then, yeah, I mean, it was a it was a smaller one, not like a huge, huge one, but it was so fun. And you know me, I can talk nonstop no matter what's going on.

01:03:24:23 - 01:03:43:08

Luna

And so and I was like so excited because like, yes, we found a corner so that I wasn't like seeing everything. I was like looking at the wall and him. But then people would walk by and I would be like, I'm getting nipple with, like, I'm having my first VIP and, you know, because they'd be like, can we watch, you know, in there there's different every space has different rules.

01:03:43:10 - 01:04:02:16

Luna

And then not every single person in that space remembers which space they're at. So like in this space, you don't need to ask permission. In fact, it's like you're not supposed to ask permission. And other ones, they want you to talk, you know, so it's a whole bunch of silly signals. But basically this this whipping up was finally like, okay, stop it.

01:04:02:16 - 01:04:10:11

Luna

Pay attention to me. Like he wrangled me in because I was like, Blood Moon, you know? And I get very squiggly. And so stuff comes out of my mouth. But,

01:04:10:13 - 01:04:30:23

Roy

So yeah, that's to me. But to me, a woman being, you know, funny and also being silly is quite the turn on, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, not not like a standup because standup can be neurotic. I can again, that's something I could do on my own very well. Easily. I want I like seeing an energetic woman be, you know, if she could be silly.

01:04:31:02 - 01:04:57:16

Roy

It's quite a thing to, behold. And it's appealing to me, and I don't know what it is, but it's just. Yeah, it's it's just I just find that attractive. And again, it took me some time to figure that out because I just I couldn't articulate what it was I was looking for. But. Yeah. That's just something I noticed from, like, you know, actresses I would watch on TV or, or movies just like in, but like, oh, yeah, she's really the apex of that is like, Alison Brie.

01:04:57:20 - 01:05:16:20

Roy

I'll never forget, like, when she takes her top off and glow and like, God damn, you know. Oh, yeah, I know she's being so silly with the the showgirl headdress and, like, good damage. Yeah, I certainly had to go to, you know, take care of business multiple times. Oh, yeah. To this day, it still angers me that that show that canceled I know.

01:05:16:22 - 01:05:20:06

Luna

In terms of silliness. Can I share a story.

01:05:20:08 - 01:05:21:06

Roy

Please?

01:05:21:08 - 01:05:27:01

Luna

Can I tell people that one time I had a whole lot of fun leading you around the room by your cock and.

01:05:27:03 - 01:05:43:02

Roy

And so you're the mirror, dude. Now, here's the thing. I don't mind that, I don't mind. That was actually that was pretty fun. I will never videotape myself having sex. But in general, yes, you did leave me along. And the other thing is that you allowed me to see myself in the mirror I never done.

01:05:43:04 - 01:05:45:04

Luna

Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned. I was like, oh yeah.

01:05:45:04 - 01:06:03:23

Roy

Yeah, yeah. How was that for? Yeah, that was that was quite memorable. But I think and you know, I didn't flex like it was Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. I was going to do that, but maybe it was a way to look at myself as a sexual being. That I was not used to doing. And like I had no problem having sex.

01:06:03:23 - 01:06:38:20

Roy

But the idea of just, you know, looking at myself because obviously I'm in my own body, I see everything from the first person, it's, it looks at in a whole new dynamic and that was, adventurous. And then the other thing is just simply that, you know, we had fun, and I legitimately want to have fun. I don't just being silly, you know, you know, exploring each other and just the fact that I remember when you came the first time I had sex with you and the second time I mean, I'll never forget that because I.

01:06:38:20 - 01:06:57:14

Roy

And then the what you taught me to do, or I was able to finger you, and then I was able to redo that, because I've got these long, basically built for piano fingers that will use my hook, my ring finger in, to this one woman's vagina. And I was like, I couldn't believe what I was able to pull off.

01:06:57:14 - 01:07:15:09

Roy

I was quite surprised. And here's the thing. I'm not even like I came much later. I just like, enjoyed seeing her, enjoy hearing her get off. And I was like, oh, this is cool. This is really cool. Because again, there's something about the way it just builds with a woman. It's and I get it. It could be that could be a lot of acting in a can be.

01:07:15:11 - 01:07:34:01

Roy

But the fact is that there's that physical change. I'm like, fucking nailed it. It's like a nailed it. Yeah. Like I'm just proud of myself and, and, I enjoy that quite a lot. But yeah, it was just the fact of, you know, what we're able to do together. It's just. No, I will always, always treasure that.

01:07:34:01 - 01:08:03:18

Roy

I can't stress that enough. That's not just, you know, mere words. You know, whatever I do and wherever I go, you know, that's just part of my sexual being. Totally. But, yeah, that's, you know, that's, you know, you're an immensely giving person. It's that's actually few and far between. And you got to be proud. And even though I understand has its shortcomings and certainly that can lead to people acting inappropriate or practically just gross or just downright criminal.

01:08:03:18 - 01:08:28:09

Roy

Unfortunately. You know, you're a real special person. And, you know, I'm proud to have, you know, come across you. And, I mean, I knew that from the moment I saw your photos, even when you had your shaved head. I'm like, there's something about it. There's something daring about that. Because even with the last time I was at Sherry's and the woman I ended up being with initially, I was put off by her.

01:08:28:09 - 01:08:50:01

Roy

I thought she was overpowering, but then at the end of the day, I'm like thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking. And I'm like, what's there's something about that. Where again, where a woman is being overly silly, even if it's I find it kind of overpowered, you know, just off putting it will somehow just get me there. Like there's another like, like, uncertain night life these days.

01:08:50:01 - 01:09:09:12

Roy

So, actually, I'm Sarah Sarah Sherman. She's, like, really gross and, like. And also just kind of, you know, visually off putting. But the way she comes off when she's like doing characters and sketches, I'm like, this is a clear like, I, I don't want to. I mean, she's got boyfriends. It doesn't matter. And I'm never going to meet her in person.

01:09:09:14 - 01:09:28:13

Roy

You never know. I've never seen it like this. Just, you know, this is more like. I clearly want this to be a one night stand kind of situation, or at most, rising the levels of fuck. But we're clearly I don't want a committed relationship with her. I'm like, I'm slumming it, but I'm like, I don't know why, but it's like, yeah, it's it's that energy.

01:09:28:13 - 01:09:45:07

Roy

Just like, got damn, it just gets me every time. And, I don't see this. And the thing is, it's like my mother's not like that. My dad is definitely not like that. I don't know where that comes from, but I guess it's. Perhaps it's what it is. Maybe it's the contrast. Yeah.

01:09:45:13 - 01:10:04:13

Luna

And and we don't have to know. Right. Other than paying attention to the signals, figuring out the why is is impossible sometimes. You know, I know psychology has made it very, very popular for us to analyze ourselves. And there's maybe some use to that. But I'm I am team. Oh my gosh, I have a relaxed kitty. Wait, let me show you this.

01:10:04:15 - 01:10:06:03

Roy

Let's see, the more I am.

01:10:06:03 - 01:10:11:06

Luna

Team relaxed like this, relaxed little pussy right here. He is so.

01:10:11:07 - 01:10:27:00

Roy

Cozied up right now, he's, Look at his little face. He's going to get so mad if I do this. He's. He's already squinting with fury right now. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. Not everything is up to interpretation. I've seen a lot. I've seen a few David Lynch movies in my time and stuff like that.

01:10:27:00 - 01:10:46:12

Roy

Is it's art. It's completely subjective as to what you think it is. You're never to get the true answer, but I at least could say, at least even at this stage of my life, with the fact that, yeah, what I wish I knew, what I knew now when I was younger, but hey, you know, at least have a clear vision as to what it is I'm looking for.

01:10:46:14 - 01:11:12:12

Roy

Yeah. You know, I think about, you know, what I want to seek, you know, is that is the idea of accessibility, openness, kindness. And I want to. That's what I want. And I just want to know if I have those ethics. That's the thing. Even with the ranch, it's nothing like it. And and it does fulfill a need.

01:11:12:14 - 01:11:33:19

Roy

It's a nice thing to have, but I know it's not. Even if I was, you know, at an amazing income level, I would eventually want to move on. Yeah. You can't achieve, a level, you know, the ultimate level of perfection. You're you're kissing, you're you're, you know, being able embrace and and truly, you know, and do everything.

01:11:33:19 - 01:11:51:02

Roy

And I get I'm not I'm not complaining. I want to be very clear about that. There's a reason why those rules are in place. You can't take it to what you would traditionally expect. And you know, in it like a regular, you know, sexual interaction. And I'm not going to pretend, you know, I don't pretend that it is, you know, it's anything else but that.

01:11:51:02 - 01:12:10:18

Roy

And but again, it's it, you know, it eventually kind of reaches the point of empty calories. You will get me where I need to do. But at a certain point, I know that, like once I've kind of gone after, you know, or, you know, sought after the women that I want, I kind of know, like, well, this person is kind of like that person.

01:12:10:18 - 01:12:43:09

Roy

And I know it's very dehumanizing the way I'm describing this, but basically, you know, this person is kind of like that. And, you know, it's like a tight it's a tight. Yeah. Yeah. And so it just fit, you know, I can maybe it'll be a little bit different, maybe not. But at the end of the day and like I know eventually I'll, you know, I'll move on from that unless I truly I somehow a millionaire or something like that, then I'm like, all right, then I'll go all out nuts and then it just, you know, then just, you know, move on to that and they'll probably near a, bungalow level, but, but yeah,

01:12:43:09 - 01:13:01:07

Roy

that's there's that that place is a means, you know, I have it's an, it's an outlet and I have the means. I'm fortunate I'm privileged to be able to pursue that. And I know a lot. And I know for there was a period in my life, a two year period where I didn't have a regular job. Yeah, I would have not had that.

01:13:01:12 - 01:13:25:20

Roy

I know a lot of other people do not have that access. And and it's incredibly frustrating and it doesn't help. And especially in this day and age where your choices either online or not, I can't fucking deal with it. I can't deal with, you know, just the to the drudgery of it and then trying to figure out setting up meeting points where it's like my dad call it, like arguing for him.

01:13:25:22 - 01:13:53:16

Roy

You're dealing with like nuclear armed disarmament or something like that. It's like really protracted because ultimately, at the end of the day, for me, the way I look at it and I learned this from my time even doing improv, is that because I spent all my time in my own head anyway? And like, the stuff I'm talking about, you know, no person may not know understand what the hell it is I'm talking about, but I'm very good at, being able to listen and respond and be able to, you know, reinforce what it is.

01:13:53:20 - 01:14:12:11

Roy

I discovered that at least when I was doing improv, that I was great doing support work. Yeah, I can expand on whatever's being talked about. I'm really good at that. Just because I've got a head full of trivia and, other useless material. But, you know, I it's something that if, like I say, it goes back to what you just described.

01:14:12:11 - 01:14:27:05

Roy

If it's something that she wants to do and it's clear she's interested in doing it, I'm going to. You know, I don't have a real objection to it. I want to I want to, you know, I am going to I am going to want to explore it. I'm going to shut you down. I mean, best example I can give that's similar to that.

01:14:27:10 - 01:14:44:10

Roy

I was just at Disneyland for the past couple days with a friend of mine from out of the country, and I went first time I'd been there since I was 17, and there were I'm not a ride. I'm not a thrill rides guy, and I don't like roller coasters, but I know there's a couple of rides where, all right, I'm like, I'm not sure I'm like this.

01:14:44:11 - 01:14:59:10

Roy

You know? You know, I'm kind of leery about a because I'm not used to being jostled. Yeah. And then I know he was there. It was something that he really wanted to do. And I'm like, this is like when the I'm never going to be here again. I'm not going to go to Disneyland on my own. So I'm like, I'm going to be there.

01:14:59:10 - 01:15:14:07

Roy

I'm doing it for him, and I can be weirdly loyal like that, but I know that I'm going to enjoy him enjoying, you know, like when I'm Indiana Jones or Indiana Jones. The ride is actually pretty. It's pretty. It's not that scary since you're not high off the ground or anything like that.

01:15:14:13 - 01:15:19:05

Luna

I get thrilled every time there's real fire, okay? And you go down and that Boulder's going to get you.

01:15:19:05 - 01:15:29:08

Roy

So yeah, there's that. But it's not. It's not like the repurposed Tower of Terror where you drop 32. I saw that I'm like, which became Guardians of the Galaxy. I know I.

01:15:29:08 - 01:15:34:19

Luna

Missed Tower of Terror. I loved it as Tower of Terror. It was so spooky. And.

01:15:34:21 - 01:15:50:16

Roy

They did they do stuff for Halloween. But the fact is, is like, I didn't want to drop 13 stories, and I certainly didn't want to be going up and down, up and down. So I know that, and I got an ice cream bar while I waited. Oh. But, well, they're they're they're pretty damn frozen when you get them, but they're not bad.

01:15:50:16 - 01:16:09:04

Roy

But in general, like I said, there is support because I know that and that I know that I'm going to enjoy seeing the other person enjoy it. Maybe that's a bit of voyeurism. I don't know what to tell you, but, you know, it's not something I would do on my own. And but and the other, you know, but it ultimately comes down to, what the other person wants to do.

01:16:09:04 - 01:16:28:07

Roy

And then I'm going to think about it because maybe something I never thought about, like, you know, the, you know, stuff we did together, I never would have suggested that. And, that, you know, that was absolute fun. But, I never would have thought of that because I just. Why would I ever think of that so. Well, like I said, you know, it's just I'm always open minded, and I don't just say that.

01:16:28:07 - 01:16:42:14

Roy

I do mean it. But, you know, I want to make, you know, there's got to be good. You know, if you got to be genuinely good, don't just say, because I could tell, you know, it's more forced and it's a little less. But. Well, certainly that's how I look at genuine.

01:16:42:14 - 01:17:02:03

Luna

And I also I personally experience you as a clear communicator. Right. One of my top values is do I trust that that person can talk to me enough for me to feel comfy and safe, that we're on the same page? Rates of when you come to me, even if you're just like, oh, I don't, I don't know exactly, or I just want to have a good time and we want to do this.

01:17:02:06 - 01:17:20:20

Luna

You know, I feel I felt such an openness from you to just be playful. And then everything we did together was just sort of like examining your energy and co-creating the moment. Like, that's probably where the seed planted, right? And then when we go along for the ride, it like it really is, really is fun.

01:17:20:22 - 01:17:40:21

Roy

Yeah, absolutely. And the fact is it allowed me to expand boundaries. I never would have thought it because ultimately, like, I could throw all sorts of shit, you know, just to say, I want to do x, y, z, ABC, but I have no frame of reference. And that's the thing. Like it's, you know, like when I go to the ranch, for example, I just ask, you know, for basic stuff, I'm not there to role play.

01:17:40:21 - 01:18:04:11

Roy

Now, if you said to me, Roy, I want to act out this fantasy, you're the star and professor. I'm the I'm the, you know, the student. You cheated on their exam. And I want you to be real stern. And then I want to, you know, classic, you know, teacher fantasy. I wouldn't necessarily seek that out because I think it's I do find it real ridiculous where I'm like, I know you really want it, and I'm going to serve that out because would you be.

01:18:04:11 - 01:18:07:01

Luna

Committed to or do you think you would giggle and crack if someone.

01:18:07:01 - 01:18:22:01

Roy

Wanted you to do that? I mean, I think what I want to do is practice it a little bit just to make sure that it's not because it's kind of lends itself to where if the if the actions are rougher, like I needed, I needed it. I got to gauge this kind of thing and I need to practice.

01:18:22:06 - 01:18:28:07

Roy

It's like almost like dealing with like an intimacy coordinator, which I think is a great position. Just I've heard you explain this celibate.

01:18:28:09 - 01:18:49:18

Luna

Totally. Well, it's a it's a whole long, complicated thing, but yes, I hear what you're saying about, like, working out the blocking of the scene, and that is part of a good role play, too. But also what I know about you and your willingness to like improv and play and go along with it, and the fact that you at one point did funny voices on a date, even of that date, couldn't appreciate your funny voices, is that you're just down the play, you know?

01:18:49:20 - 01:19:09:05

Luna

And so for me, role play is never about getting a scene right. I know there are some king stars out there that are like, I have this fantasy and I need it, you know, to get fulfilled like this. And also, I've been to enough workshops at this point to know that just because we have a fantasy in our head doesn't mean that playing it out is always going to be as satisfying as we may hope, you know?

01:19:09:05 - 01:19:27:04

Luna

And so for me, the piece always is finding the other person that's going to be excited enough to be like, yeah, babe, I'll do that with you. You know, regardless of how it goes. And we can adjust in the in the real time as we need to, but, I think it's time to ask. You are a wrap up fantasy questions.

01:19:27:06 - 01:19:47:09

Luna

My new favorite. Suddenly we live in a new reality where all of us have to serve as a sex worker for at least two years. You have to serve your fellow countrymen and women or whoever. How would you choose to serve? And let me know if you need a list of sex workers off the top of our head.

01:19:47:11 - 01:19:54:01

Roy

I mean, that's gonna be tough, because if we're talking about are we talking about like, right out of high school or now because you can put them right.

01:19:54:03 - 01:20:09:13

Luna

In. Yeah. In my in my perfect fantasy for you. Can you get to pick it's within ten years of adulthood. It would be my would be my kind of like, you know, I don't know, 20 years, whatever I think, I think it'd be nice to have it in the first decade of adulthood personally, when people choose it.

01:20:09:15 - 01:20:14:18

Roy

I agree with you. But I knowing who I was back in my early 20s, I would have not been very good at.

01:20:14:21 - 01:20:19:20

Luna

Oh, you get training? No, you get training for whatever job you pick. Yeah.

01:20:19:22 - 01:20:22:17

Roy

Now what kind of jobs are we talking. Are we just like okay.

01:20:22:18 - 01:20:44:13

Luna

So any any type of sex worker. And part of my research if you want to call it that is figuring out what counts as a sex worker. So it could be anything from phone sex to online sex, chatting to being a full on like independent OnlyFans baby, being a mainstream porn star, to being a full service brothel worker, to being like a tantra.

01:20:44:13 - 01:21:03:20

Luna

Happy endings massage therapist, to being like, sugar baby girlfriend, to being like a gold digging wife or husband to being, let's see what other to being like a surrogate partner to being a sex therapist. You could be a dominant. You could be a madam. Well, there's. I guess you couldn't be a madam. You can be a madam.

01:21:03:20 - 01:21:22:01

Luna

It's a fantasy question. Let's see, what am I need of my list? And for me, I think rock star counts. Now, this is where we get into definitions, right? Does wife count? Does like slutty artist count? You know, does, is food porn its own category? I mean, literal food porn with just food? I don't know, it turns me on.

01:21:22:01 - 01:21:28:18

Luna

Like to eat food. So, so, so using your creativity, what do you think?

01:21:28:19 - 01:21:45:05

Roy

Oh, goodness. I mean, see, this is tough for me because I know how I was back then. I mean, I don't I'm trying to think of, like when you when you deal with a situation like this, you think about, like, what do you not want to do? Like, I don't think I want to be a happy ending massage worker because I, I've got plenty of legit massages.

01:21:45:05 - 01:21:58:19

Roy

And I would think this is the least, the least thing I want to do is to be working for the future. Can people off again? It's dehumanizing to me. I could be a good brothel worker, but then I don't know if I'd be necessarily good at my job. Like the way I think about it, this is going to be a real deep.

01:21:58:19 - 01:21:59:04

Roy

Could you.

01:21:59:04 - 01:22:00:11

Luna

Get training.

01:22:00:12 - 01:22:20:01

Roy

Or training? I'm willing to give that a shot. I don't necessarily know if I'd make my quotas. But also it would probably be like, this is a really this is going to be for the listeners who are, like, familiar with this for Saturday Night Live, there's like a really old sketch called Fred Garvin Male Prostitute, and it's from the mid 70s.

01:22:20:01 - 01:22:41:17

Roy

Dan Aykroyd plays basically like a, like a basically like a he looks like a just like this doofy blue, you know, salesman guy. Okay. And but he's the male prostitute that was hired by this woman's client to give her, like, the raw, jarring of her life. And I'm just like, this guy's sure he's got, like, a little green ombre cat, and he's got, like, the plaid pants, and he looks like a complete dork.

01:22:41:19 - 01:22:56:19

Roy

And unfortunately, I know that as a sex worker, I would end up looking like that. But I think probably I would just end up doing that because I wouldn't have had the business skills to be a madam, although I know I could. I could be a damn good back office worker. But that's not sex.

01:22:56:21 - 01:23:00:15

Luna

That's not. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if madam even technically counts as a sex worker.

01:23:00:15 - 01:23:02:18

Roy

I don't think that counts. So that's that's an admin role.

01:23:02:18 - 01:23:10:00

Luna

I mean, I think I mean, it is more admin than anything else, but, you know, some some madams have a background as a lady, so, you know, you know.

01:23:10:02 - 01:23:25:17

Roy

That's different. That's I think graduating into the position. So I'm going to say even though I doubt I'd be successful, you know, to, to put myself down and just look at the like not just the reality of it. And I'll go with that. I'll be a sex worker and then because at least I'll get training. Be more.

01:23:25:17 - 01:23:45:06

Luna

Well, yeah. Sure. Okay. So in in this fantasy, you are serving the whole wide world, because in this fantasy where in my perfect world, where insurance covers sex, women, at least once a month, maybe once a week, I don't know, for a really, really, really who want the country to be really prosperous and full of creativity that would be liberated.

01:23:45:06 - 01:23:55:14

Luna

So you would be there of service for people who need you, who come in and their things are covered by insurance. And I think everyone would have plenty of business if it were that model just now.

01:23:55:16 - 01:23:59:13

Roy

Now, do I get to pick my clients? Because admittedly, I may not, you know, like because you can.

01:23:59:13 - 01:24:06:04

Luna

Always you can always reject clients. They have to pick you. It has to be the mutual picking. But yeah, you definitely can always say no to people.

01:24:06:06 - 01:24:18:23

Roy

This is what I mean. Not meeting my quota because I understand this is a little bit different. What I have to know, what I have to do in that position to be used to the fact that I may not be like gobsmacked, attractive, and more like I'm doing this as a service, which would be an interesting thing to do.

01:24:19:05 - 01:24:42:06

Roy

Yeah. So at the end of the day, based on everything, even though I know I don't think I'd be successful at it, I know that's probably the path I kind of take. Obviously, I'll definitely be a I'll be a brothel worker, but because ultimately it's curiosity and I think from the training and the interaction that would help me a lot with that would have helped me further along my people skills and overall maturity.

01:24:42:06 - 01:24:43:07

Roy

So I'm going to go with that.

01:24:43:09 - 01:25:03:01

Luna

Dude, I love that. Okay, so lastly, you have an unlimited budget to build your perfect play space, whether it's a creation mansion, playroom, dungeon, play palace, etc., castle, hotel, whatever you want. What is it like? What are the elements that are important to you for your play space?

01:25:03:03 - 01:25:26:07

Roy

The play space. Because I've talked about parties quite a bit, I think it would be I would almost want to make it like like a regular, almost like just the. So like almost it's a social club where you'd have like, you know, you're maybe more traditional social club where you got like the, the, the nice wood bound walls and then it's, it's got, you know, it's not overpowering, it's not overly loud.

01:25:26:07 - 01:25:48:10

Roy

But people have their individual spaces. It's welcoming. There's no pretension. And it's just it's also but it's also a social space. And the fact that, you know, again, that's what I mean. It's a social club. That's I think the way I look at it, maybe there's like different rooms have different themes. Maybe it's again, you know, one more looks like a, you know, I live in a wood panel apartment.

01:25:48:10 - 01:26:07:08

Roy

It looks more like there's more it's more of a dated theme. It's, you know, and but there's just places where we could just talk and hang around and there's a bar, but obviously, you know, people can't, you know, drink too much. Maybe there's a show because I always like the way you described. Maybe there's a way that, you know, you'd have, you know, discussions and things like that and teachings.

01:26:07:12 - 01:26:20:11

Roy

I wouldn't that here's one thing I wouldn't have because and I forgot to talk about this, but I'll be very brief about I'm not a fan of burlesque. Like I said, I'm not a fan of strip clubs, although I do respect the work of burlesque, and I think there's a shitload of work that goes way.

01:26:20:11 - 01:26:23:04

Luna

So much work, so much work.

01:26:23:06 - 01:26:45:04

Roy

You respect it as a as an art, but I don't like it. And here's a very brief tangent. I remember going to a friend's, burlesque party. It was a frozen themed burlesque party. I was in a shitty mood to begin with because this was, Halloween 2016. I hadn't worked in a couple of months. I was in a real foul mood to begin with because I was unemployed.

01:26:45:06 - 01:27:01:19

Roy

And then I'm going to this thing and I'm like, like, what the fuck am I watching this bullshit? Because ultimately, to me, was burlesque. I understand it's an expression of sexuality, but to me it's like it's neither fiction or fail. I'm not getting any really good comedy, and it's not a strip club because I understand the word pasties.

01:27:01:19 - 01:27:16:07

Roy

But there's a lot of art and things. But I'm like, to me, this is performance art, if you call it performance. I'm not bothered by it. Like, and I know here I am, here's Roy with this hot tape machine. But I mean, I'm told that this person I'm not if I'm like, what the fuck are we doing?

01:27:16:13 - 01:27:17:03

Roy

What is this for?

01:27:17:03 - 01:27:19:06

Luna

I, I just wonder if you haven't been.

01:27:19:06 - 01:27:19:19

Roy

Don't get it.

01:27:20:00 - 01:27:23:17

Luna

I've been to some excellent burlesque and I'm like,

01:27:23:19 - 01:27:27:12

Roy

Yeah, I must have gone to a really shitty burlesque. Maybe that's what it must have been. Because I.

01:27:27:12 - 01:27:35:18

Luna

Know what. And it is all about the T's, right? Which I'm. I'm still practicing, learning about teasing. That was my kind of theme of March, but I don't think I learned enough about teasing.

01:27:35:18 - 01:27:40:23

Roy

So I'm going to say to me, I'm not a fan of teasing unless it goes somewhere, because to me it's.

01:27:40:23 - 01:27:49:08

Luna

Like, yes, yes, yes. So like tantalizing. I think it has to be dates to turn people on. And then it's supposed to like inspire the audience. But I, I hear what you're saying.

01:27:49:12 - 01:27:51:12

Roy

Yeah. This is a fun time. Yeah, but go on, go on.

01:27:51:17 - 01:28:07:19

Luna

What? I feel like I've been to very sexy burlesque. Like watching these ladies like it was like, some of this burlesque that I was like, wait, I think I, I think I really like ladies. It's so like, for me, I've had some some formative, spicy experiences that were really.

01:28:07:19 - 01:28:12:11

Roy

That's wonderful. That's awesome. But the fact is for me is like, if I was going, there's a symbol that I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?

01:28:12:13 - 01:28:16:06

Luna

Okay, so in your play space, we have a burlesque stage. Is what you're saying or no.

01:28:16:08 - 01:28:33:22

Roy

No, no, no, we have more of like a discussion stage. To me, it's almost like it just goes back to what I talk about. Like, you know, the, you know, it goes back to like, the Playboy Club or the Playboy Club and have this, but like, you'd have actual discussions of it. I want mine maybe not necessarily, you know, just of social issues, topics, things like that.

01:28:33:23 - 01:28:53:10

Roy

Because like, I have, access to I have, you know, a membership to Playboy where on the app they've digitized every magazine. Right. And when you realize it's like there's that cliché of like, he only reads Playboy for the articles and let's not Hefner has got some history on it or that seems great, man. But the fact is, is like there was a lot to that magazine.

01:28:53:10 - 01:29:18:12

Roy

Both like glitter, you know, both of literature and interviewing and just the idea of like that. Here's what it boils down to the ability of sexual expression. Well, in a collegiate environment, I don't mean that in like traditional college rah rah, but the idea of treating everyone. Yeah, with with it on equal stature and being able to express this in a variety of room, you know, ways of things, it's not that complicated to me.

01:29:18:14 - 01:29:35:20

Roy

Yeah, I think that, yeah, that's because to me, what you've articulated, it's not laziness on my part. That's what it is. Because like, I can improve upon it. That framework is what it is other than like where you want to locate it to be to me. Like, I almost want to, you know, you have like a different environment.

01:29:35:20 - 01:29:43:03

Roy

You've always thought that having it out in the desert, I think of like you have it in like a, you know, an urban like, again, like a social club in an urban environment.

01:29:43:08 - 01:29:50:22

Luna

I want one near every major city, ideally within two hours of driving distance of every town in in my perfect.

01:29:50:22 - 01:29:51:16

Roy

Yes, in.

01:29:51:16 - 01:30:05:02

Luna

My progress and in my perfect world, there's a chain, a chain of Playboy mansions. Because I'm not a Playboy, but I'm a Playboy. I'll be your Bey for the day. I don't know, we could just play like we could just make whatever you are you want and then, like, fondle each other. I don't know, I don't know how to make it fun, but I think it's going to be an art clip.

01:30:05:03 - 01:30:10:07

Luna

I think it has to be an art club with education, forward pieces. And then maybe there's a secret.

01:30:10:09 - 01:30:28:03

Roy

It kind of like is, yeah, I agree with you. It's almost like a collective. Like an artist collective, although not necessarily so artsy, high minded. Yeah. And the other one is accessible. Yeah. Accessible because. Well, I want to be clear of like Playboy always espouse like an upper class mentality because that's obviously the market they were trying to espouse.

01:30:28:05 - 01:30:50:09

Roy

Yeah, naturally. And I never read hustler, but I get the I understand the appeal of it. And that was certainly not for me, but certainly it's just the expression of being able to be both lowbrow and high, you know, you know, again, it's it's equal footing to. Yeah, it's just the mere expression. And, but we're doing it in such a collegiate manner that we're respected because again, I can I'm not always a high minded guy.

01:30:50:09 - 01:30:53:01

Roy

And again, I can like I said, I can be really silly. And I think a.

01:30:53:01 - 01:31:17:17

Luna

Lot of us are mixtures of stuff up to even in the like. Yeah. I mean, I personally have not. Well, if I've had issues with like feeling, how do I say it? I feel like I am not aware of issues I've had asserting myself as a full human being, even when I'm a full sexy creature. Right. Like the people in my life, whether they are men or women.

01:31:17:17 - 01:31:31:23

Luna

If I have fucked them, I've never felt like degraded for having fucked someone, right? I've never felt like I couldn't express myself. I've never felt like I couldn't show up in a room and say anything. I know that's not the experience of everyone, but that is also why I want to create a space where I'm like, hey, here's the baseline.

01:31:32:00 - 01:31:44:16

Luna

We're going to be as horny as we are and as polite as we are mixed together, and we can be silly and playful. So that's, any, any themed rooms that you would definitely want me to have at my space or in your space?

01:31:44:16 - 01:32:02:09

Roy

I want you to. I want you to have the, the definitely the wood paneled den. Yeah, it's not it just I want us to have something where it looks like. Especially for the, younger folks out there, to experience what it was like to experience the 80s and 90s. Not necessarily a 90s theme room. I have a game that I'm.

01:32:02:10 - 01:32:13:04

Luna

I'm in. Don't know what if we. What if it's a giant mansion and we have themed rooms starting in? When would it get interesting? Maybe late. It. We'll start with a 1890s and we'll do every decade from there.

01:32:13:09 - 01:32:32:20

Roy

Just have these just for fun. I agree with your spiral. You know, I like the idea of having themed rooms and then you can have your costumes if you want and that you can if you want to role play, you can, but otherwise you can just enjoy, you know, just lounging around. I want to lounge. I think that what I look at is that again, you guess it goes back to my mentality, my upbringing.

01:32:32:20 - 01:32:51:04

Roy

It's a bit it's hands off. I'm not going to try to make this more than it is. If you want to say that you're expanding the consciousness and be hippie dippy about it, you can. But it's not universal. It's like it's what you are going to make of it, provided you abide by these guidelines and you, you, do that.

01:32:51:04 - 01:33:15:05

Roy

Otherwise there's going to be zero tolerance about, you know, certain things that are not done that can and cannot be done because naturally, that's the thing you, you know, when you I was like a moderator on some Facebook page and I got, I got fired from and I remember I want to mention this quickly because you were talking about how can I, I knew obviously you had to change like the naming of your show and all that, and then like, how, like sex became sex and all these, like, censoring.

01:33:15:06 - 01:33:30:19

Roy

Because at this time. Yeah. So when I was a mod at this one group, the biggest thing we were told that you couldn't have the word kill in any meme. You had to censor it not just by one little bit too. I remember having to, you know, reject me and tell people like, just replace this word. You have to replace sort of the race.

01:33:30:19 - 01:33:47:07

Roy

It's going to get removed. And then I got fired because I approved a meme and a meme that involved American Pie, where the guy fought the pie and the guy said, I don't want those filthy. I don't want, you know, sexual means. I said, does your rule state that? No. Well, you better put that in the rules.

01:33:47:07 - 01:34:08:03

Roy

You got 300,000 people in this group. You better do that. If you truly believe that. Or you better get like minded people to watch this, this page, because you're not. Otherwise, it's going to be different sensibilities all the way around, and there's going to be uneven enforcement. So the way I look at it is, and I don't get off on enforcement is that, you know, we're clear about our intentions.

01:34:08:05 - 01:34:25:20

Roy

You know, there's certain things we can't, you know, on a daily basis about beyond that, you know, do what you want to do. And I look for accessibility, openness, kindness. And beyond that, you know, do it. Do what you want to do beyond that, you know, but that's what I seek.

01:34:25:22 - 01:34:35:16

Luna

Fuck yeah. Lovers. You can't find him on the internet because he's anonymous. Roy, thank you so much for being a guest on X stories.

01:34:35:18 - 01:34:40:12

Roy

Thank you very much for having me on allowing me to, be a part, have an opportunity to be here.