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Partnered poly couple who have been together five years—she is 59, an educator and minister in training; he is a counselor, consultant, end-of-life Doula, and Professional Dominant—founders of Kink Collective.

🔗 CAT & JOSHUA LINKS |  kinkcollective.net / ssdce.org / masterjoshua.com / @kink_collective

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00:00:00:10 - 00:00:26:01

Luna

Our guests today are a partner and poly couple who have been together for five years. She is a 59 year old educator, creator of events and Minister in training with over 20 years of counseling experience who facilitates self-acceptance, problem solving and healing. He is a counselor, consultant and end of life doula who has over a decade of experience as a professional dominant and who has developed nontraditional sexual behavior counseling geared towards self-actualization and dismantling shame.

00:00:26:03 - 00:00:30:18

Luna

From the Kink Collective in NYC. Welcome, Kat and Joshua.

00:00:30:20 - 00:00:33:05

Joshua

Thank you so much for having us on.

00:00:33:07 - 00:00:47:14

Luna

I'm so excited to talk to you. Can you start off by telling us today if you had to rate yourself on a sexual a meter with ten being so full of sexual shame and one being like, nah, I'm good, where do you fall right now? And has it ever fluctuated?

00:00:47:16 - 00:01:07:10

Joshua

I would say about a 2 or 3, because I'm sure there's things that my body hasn't given myself permission for yet that I'm still trying to dig out, and the person or people I'm with absolutely matters to not more so being shameful of who I am, but then being able to receive what I am.

00:01:07:12 - 00:01:23:11

Cat

At the risk of sounding flip, I just want to say one. Great. It hasn't always been that way, but I don't have shame around myself, my sexuality, the people I like, I just don't. I it wasn't always that way, but it has been that way for a while.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:37:12

Luna

Do you feel comfy taking us through the like? What, like leveled it out for you? Because I really I meet a lot of one on the shame meters and sometimes I think I'm that. And then I get into these situations and I'm like, I can't even talk about it. So like, what have you noticed in your shame journey?

00:01:37:14 - 00:02:00:22

Cat

Well, I mean, I can't tell you where I was before about 12 or 13 years ago, but I've been a club owner and a party promoter for sex parties for all that amount of time and the exposure and involvement of myself and all of the people that I've come to know, it was a large influx of information and experience that just made everything okay.

00:02:00:23 - 00:02:12:04

Cat

Like there isn't anything that isn't okay so long as people are consenting and, you know, enable like so. There is no need for shame around any of it. And so I embrace that for myself as well.

00:02:12:06 - 00:02:13:03

Joshua

Yeah.

00:02:13:05 - 00:02:29:23

Luna

Do either of you notice a difference in your, like, schema meters between your personal life and your professional life? Because I have lately started to notice, like I still struggle to speak with partners sometimes on these things that like, I'm literally just like blabbering about my fantasies half the time in my regular life.

00:02:30:01 - 00:02:54:23

Joshua

Not particularly on my end of my profession and my personal life, parallel each other in regards to the sexual energy and the spaces that I try to create for myself and my partners and the people I work with. I especially try to lower that to a one for the folks that I am working with, because I want to make sure that they have a space, that they can speak without even the slightest idea of feeling shamed into who they are.

00:02:55:01 - 00:02:56:11

Joshua

That's my position. Yeah.

00:02:56:13 - 00:02:59:06

Cat

Yeah, but he's okay.

00:02:59:08 - 00:03:06:18

Luna

And now, could you just give a little snippet? Did either of you get a helpful, like, sex talk, sex ed lesson or lesson in consent when you were growing up?

00:03:06:20 - 00:03:12:07

Cat

Oh, absolutely. No. Okay, great. I learned I learned about the birds and the bees and Girl Scouts. It was horrific.

00:03:12:08 - 00:03:13:04

Luna

Really?

00:03:13:06 - 00:03:48:03

Joshua

Yeah. Yeah. And for myself, I learned it on for anyone from the northeast who remembers Robin Bird on public access and cable and Friends and what other people were talking about. But that's actually something I speak about quite often, is how are we teaching the kids about intimacy and connection? Because the emphasis is on the physicality of sex when while it is important to understand the anatomy and the process and the safety and everything on the technical side, I think the big hiccup is and that we're not doing is talking about the importance of connection and trust building, especially for children.

00:03:48:06 - 00:04:12:12

Joshua

Right? Because sex isn't about sex. Sex is about investment, about vulnerability, about sharing, about space. And the language is all wrong. I was actually talking to my nephew last week who's 11. I started having sex at 12 and he's 11, and it's like my brother's afraid to talk to him about sex. Yeah, right. Because it's like such a shameful conversation and like, it shouldn't be because most people have it to some degree or another.

00:04:12:12 - 00:04:22:07

Joshua

It's desired. And if we're not teaching them how to approach it responsibly and safely, what are they going to do? They're going to make the same choices that we've made. Yes.

00:04:22:07 - 00:04:25:02

Luna

We just continue the cycles that are in place. Yeah.

00:04:25:04 - 00:04:45:08

Cat

I also think an important part of the conversation is intimacy and sex. Right. Like I came up believing that the word intimacy meant sex. And it wasn't until very late that I began to understand that intimacy and sex don't even necessarily have to be related. And I think that's an important part of the conversation that was never had with me.

00:04:45:10 - 00:04:50:09

Luna

Yeah, well, that is what we are doing here today to try to fill in some of those context gaps.

00:04:50:11 - 00:04:50:18

Joshua

That I.

00:04:50:18 - 00:04:52:09

Cat

Think so many of us have.

00:04:52:11 - 00:05:01:02

Luna

So could you tell us, before we get to details what is sexy to you? What are your personal definitions or experiences of the idea of sexy?

00:05:01:04 - 00:05:29:01

Joshua

For me, sexy confidence. It's a seduction. It's sultry. It's being able to seduce with body movement and language. It's being able to articulate with confidence what it is that you want. Having the physical freedom while engaging in sex, in play. To be vocal, to give signs of joy and pleasure or not comfortably. I think communication, nonverbal and verbal, is probably the sexiest thing for me.

00:05:29:02 - 00:05:34:20

Joshua

It leads me down the road, right? If I don't have that, it's like I'm just in a dark room looking for a button.

00:05:34:22 - 00:06:04:11

Cat

For me, sexy is a little more subtle, right? Sexy is like a look across the room. Sexy is just the way someone stands. It's very subtle. Easy light stuff. I mean, sexy in all the traditional ways. But for me, I think what makes it maybe different for me is that it's very subtle. Like, I can look across the room and see someone that I like or I'm attracted to, and just the look in their face or the way they're speaking to someone or the way they're standing or their clothes like, is sexy to me.

00:06:04:13 - 00:06:04:21

Joshua

Yeah.

00:06:05:00 - 00:06:12:08

Luna

And I love both of those answers. And I think they're both, you know, it's we're creating fullness here. Okay. So now what counts as sex?

00:06:12:10 - 00:06:20:04

Joshua

That question that we throw that we talk about this would define sex because everyone defines sex differently.

00:06:20:05 - 00:06:20:15

Cat

Yes they.

00:06:20:15 - 00:06:41:03

Joshua

Do. For me sex is penetration and the intention of penetration. Right. Because like let's say if there's two female bodied folks who are engaging in sex, there's no penis to penetrate. However, we have other things we can use to penetrate or any type of connecting to the body parts. Kissing isn't sexy to me. However, kissing is more intimate than sex to me.

00:06:41:03 - 00:06:58:02

Joshua

To say I don't think masturbation, mutual masturbation is sex. I think that's two people masturbating together. But what if the other person is masturbating? The other person? Is that sex? That's like a handshake. Well.

00:06:58:04 - 00:07:03:16

Cat

One might argue in some ways that sex is it can be recreational. And to that end, right? Yes.

00:07:03:18 - 00:07:04:17

Luna

Totally.

00:07:04:19 - 00:07:23:14

Cat

I've come up around a lot of ways of using this question as a way of dodging responsibility. Right. Like, well, you know, I didn't do this, therefore it wasn't sex and someone else is hurt. Like, there's a whole nuance way of using that. It's the Bill Clinton thing, right? Like it's, you know, it wasn't sex thing.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:27:18

Luna

Yeah. Yeah. It comes up a lot. And I wasn't cheating, babe.

00:07:27:20 - 00:07:46:00

Cat

Yeah. It's like that. So for me, anything that has to do, anything that has to do with orgasm unless you're alone in a room by yourself, probably is the easiest way to cleave the question. Right. So mutual masturbation, so oral sex or any of those things where climax is or can be involved counts as sex to me.

00:07:46:02 - 00:08:03:23

Luna

I love that. Okay. Can you guys give us a little overview of what your sex related work life is like right now? Like do you identify as sex workers? What is it that you do? What do you think about sexy on a day to day basis? Like, just give us your sex work overview. Sex at work overview.

00:08:04:01 - 00:08:10:01

Joshua

So technically I do have sex at work sometimes just because it's the space. I have no kids.

00:08:10:01 - 00:08:14:09

Cat

We work where we live. Yeah, no.

00:08:14:11 - 00:08:30:20

Joshua

In order to get time with me, a person has to have an investment into themselves. Introspectively. Because if we're going to negotiate any sort of vulnerability or intimacy, I need you to have the language to have a conversation with me. On the professional side of things, do I consider myself a sex worker at the end of the day?

00:08:30:20 - 00:08:58:20

Joshua

Yes, because that's what I'm helping people work through is their relationship with intimacy, sex, shame, and a whole other gamut of things. But it all boils down to the investment and energy they're looking to share with someone else. So in order to gain that access to me as a sex worker, there's a large investment of time from the other person, because I want to make sure that my energy isn't being drained for fetish dispensing.

00:08:58:22 - 00:09:20:02

Joshua

Yeah. Right. For someone coming to me to say this is what I need, and I would like you to give it to me. My side of that is. Well what are you doing for yourself in order to deserve it. Right. Where's it coming from and why do you need it? Because as a sex worker and I talk about this a lot, especially with the implements of Bdsm, it's a drain and it's a toll on our body.

00:09:20:08 - 00:09:33:19

Joshua

Risk injury. Harm. You know, there's a lot of things that can come into this. And while I've been having sex for the better part of 32 years, I've learned the price that is invested or paid for it.

00:09:33:21 - 00:09:53:14

Cat

I agree, I do some professional domination work as well, and for me, what's really important is that I'm on a journey with a client, right? It's not just like you said, it's not just transactional. It's not just I want you to do this to me. It's where are you on your journey? And how is it that I may assist you in that journey?

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:12:19

Cat

Right. And so that's an a really important part for me. Other than that, my sexy work was when I had a sex club, which I haven't had in a few years, and that was the whole of my life at the time. And that was, you know, everything that I did in terms of creating safe space for people. I used to participate in the parties because I could and I wanted to.

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:16:03

Cat

It was all about that at that point. But I don't do that now.

00:10:16:08 - 00:10:23:13

Luna

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you tell us what each of you respectively loves the most about your work right now?

00:10:23:15 - 00:10:52:04

Cat

The work that we do is about helping people become their best selves. Become who they want to be. There's a whole host of things that go on with the work that we do. And I just love, I feel blessed, I feel blessed and humbled and amazed that I get to participate in helping people learn how to communicate, helping people learn how to connect with themselves and other people in this realm, in this sexy realm, but also in the realm of spirit and in the realm of just humanness.

00:10:52:04 - 00:11:13:00

Cat

Like. I love that you introduced this thing as hello humans. Like there's a whole human aspect of it. Yeah, and the fact that we've devised a whole system, which is another whole story, but to really effectively help people, to walk them through in a very brief amount of time, skills and understanding that allow them to step into who they really want to be.

00:11:13:01 - 00:11:25:15

Cat

The work that we do is life changing, and I know that sounds like a lot, but it really is. And I'm just floored like that. The universe made it see fit that I could be at this stage in my life, in my career, I feel exceedingly fortunate.

00:11:25:17 - 00:11:47:18

Joshua

Amazing. Yeah. If I can connect the two questions one previous and this one here, I think sex work is work for God, work for the universe. I think the work that we do in the space that we hold allows people to find authenticity and self-acceptance and acceptance from another human being in a way that was intended right to sit in front of someone who is without judgment.

00:11:47:20 - 00:12:07:17

Joshua

It's changed my life, this whole journey of sex work, and it's helped me find my relationship to God or the universe. However a person would describe their belief system. And I think part of the work that I try to do in the teaching that we have and the network of sex workers that we know and others that we haven't met yet, is that that is the significance of the work that we're doing.

00:12:07:17 - 00:12:33:20

Joshua

We're holding space for folks as sex workers to be themselves accepted without shame. And there's no other feeling like that, like it's really hard for us to find spaces to get that feeling. That's where I met with my sex work. The sex is the byproduct of the investment. Random play is the byproduct of the investment into vulnerability and understanding self, and it transcends the intimacy and the play that we have to everyday life.

00:12:33:20 - 00:12:52:03

Joshua

Imagine meeting someone who allows you to be the most authentic self possible. And then after we leave, after you leave our connection, you go into a world where you feel like you have to put masks on. But why settle for that? And that's part of the work that we do. It's not just about what are you into and how do we do it?

00:12:52:05 - 00:13:10:17

Joshua

But tell me about yourself. Tell me your fears. Tell me about your relationship with touch and intimacy. And we really get to help people process their past because no one survives childhood. Everyone has some sort of influence. Or I used the word influence because trauma falls into that, that umbrella. People have different influences in their lives that mold them.

00:13:10:19 - 00:13:32:17

Joshua

And we have our wings clipped. When we're young, we're shamed into not being ourselves with oh moments like the time you got busted masturbating. Right, right. And imagine how could we flip those oh moments to moments, right? When a parent finds their child masturbating in the child feels, oh, right. That's an opportunity for the parent to go,

00:13:32:18 - 00:13:45:22

Joshua

Well, let me talk to you about it. Let me talk to you about your relationship with your body and what may feel shameful. And we try to not put Band-Aids over a person's life experiences, but really focusing on how do we mended.

00:13:46:00 - 00:14:05:10

Luna

Yeah. How do we support ourselves in the actual shape that we came out? And what about for yourself? Do you feel like you have to put a mask back on after the work you do? Because I've been dabbling in various depths of offering myself to people, and it's wonderful and it's my favorite. And then I go back into the regular world and I'm like, oh, wait, time and place.

00:14:05:10 - 00:14:08:07

Luna

Okay, so how do you handle that for yourself?

00:14:08:09 - 00:14:25:15

Cat

I lost the separation between the different parts of my life. I don't have it anymore. I mean, and I have family members that don't really stay in touch with me because of it, but I got to a point where I don't really mind is an easier way of saying that I don't really care. I'm who I am, right?

00:14:25:15 - 00:14:42:12

Cat

One of the things that would happen in the club is people would come in and they would be like, well, this is the name I want to use. This is my same name again. And like this is my name, Chad, and this is who I am, right? And it's freeing to not have to put on masks. And so much so that I hadn't thought about it in a while.

00:14:42:12 - 00:14:46:18

Cat

Like, yes, I think it would be exceedingly uncomfortable to have to put on a mask.

00:14:46:20 - 00:15:05:01

Joshua

I think, like you said, there's a time and place for everything, right? I'm not the type to something that down to people's faces. However, I won't allow someone's discomfort to force me to dial down my authenticity. With that being said, there's a leather brother of ours by the name of Bob. Bob, if you're watching this, I love you.

00:15:05:06 - 00:15:26:11

Joshua

Who we were talking about, how do you maintain authenticity in public in your day to day life? And the takeaway from it was understanding that we're at wherever we're at. We're not too late, we're not too soon, we're not too big, we're not too small. We're just at where we're at in life. And that's okay. When a person finds comfort in edging out a little more into that authenticity, like myself, I'll go into leather.

00:15:26:16 - 00:15:44:06

Joshua

I wear a dress to a wedding like I've pushed my envelope. But my bar is unrealistic for people to to aim for right off the bat. What I say to folks and how I did it was without the words and Bob finally gave me the word for it is do it piece by piece whatever feels comfortable for you.

00:15:44:06 - 00:16:04:18

Joshua

If it's a leather cuff, wear the leather cuff out, if it's a harness, if it's a pin, whatever it is, so that you can feel closer to yourself. Do it. You don't have to project everyone, but don't hide yourself to the best of your comfort. What that does, it allows anyone who's curious to come to you and ask, and you don't have to explain anything to anyone else.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:25:07

Joshua

So if someone does ask, tell me about your leather cuff or your vest, or your cap or your boots or whatever it is that you're using to express yourself, that's them giving you permission to talk to them about. And now at that point, you can discuss, you can share as much as you're comfortable sharing or as much as they're able to receive, because the onus is on them.

00:16:25:07 - 00:16:36:00

Joshua

Now they've asked, so here's my information. But if they don't ask, then they're not curious. So they don't want to know. And that's okay too. I keep aiming for my own level of authenticity.

00:16:36:02 - 00:16:55:04

Cat

Yeah, I think too, that what Josh alluded to is this idea of doing one step at a time, right? And I think it's a really important message as someone on that end of the bell curve, to understand that, like, it's never too late, you're never not where you're supposed to be. The thing I've taken to saying lately is, if I was supposed to be somewhere else, I would be.

00:16:55:07 - 00:17:20:02

Cat

Yeah. So this is where I am right now. And yeah. And so if taking a step in the direction of whatever that direction is, one step at a time is good enough. I want to go back to one thing that we said earlier, which is part of the work that we do. We attend conferences. And one of the things that I think is really impactful is we try to give other sex workers the viewpoint to help them understand the value of the work that they do.

00:17:20:04 - 00:17:37:07

Cat

I think there's a tendency out there for sex workers while they enjoy their work, or they feel like it's meaningful or whatever. There's still I do think there's still like a little sense of shame and a little sense of having to jump through certain hoops to do things, certain ways, and without the understanding that it is really God's work that we do.

00:17:37:08 - 00:17:51:18

Cat

Like, the amount of support and healing that we bring clients is nothing short of universal work, and not all of the sex workers we run into in our circles really grasp that. So that's another thing we try to bring wherever we.

00:17:51:18 - 00:18:23:04

Joshua

Go, especially for sex workers who are doing sex work for survival. Yes, right. The distress and the disrespect that comes towards us, them hearing that message about the importance of the space that they hold to help them reframe the value that they have in society. But we have a really good friend out in Arizona who's been fighting this battle of self awareness and self-worth for some time now, and when we were finally able to have that conversation about doing God's work, you could see the shift in their body, right?

00:18:23:04 - 00:18:59:11

Joshua

That there was a level of acceptance and self-respect that climbed because it's true, right? One day we'll open up a space that we can receive sex workers and hold space for them for a few weeks, a few months at a time, so that they can ground themselves again and heal and work through the stuff that they're experiencing. Because God knows, when you're doing sex work for survival, the choices you make, contrary to what you believe in morally and ethically in your body, there's a price to pay for that, and helping them work through that in the heal is very, very significant because again, at the end of the day, I believe what we're doing is

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:00:07

Joshua

God's work.

00:19:00:09 - 00:19:23:09

Luna

I fully agree with that. And I think it's so beautiful that you're able to offer those reflections. I do a version of it when I take photos of people, and so I will, especially with sex workers. I'm like, you need pictures, I got you, you know? And so being able to just kind of like create that beautiful space for them to see all the glory that they're doing is my favorite.

00:19:23:11 - 00:19:42:09

Luna

I would love to hear your respective origin stories to whatever fullness you wish to share. Like your work origin stories, interweave it with, you know, whatever feels relevant. Especially these themes of self-acceptance that you have planted have been coming up for me a lot personally. So I feel like your two angels here like delivering me.

00:19:42:11 - 00:19:42:17

Joshua

But.

00:19:42:18 - 00:19:49:17

Luna

You just. Yeah, hover makes sense to you. I would love for you to take us through the progression, the got to where you are today.

00:19:49:19 - 00:20:06:07

Joshua

Let's see. I grew up in New York City. I was born in Florida in Hialeah, and moved to New York around 4 or 5 years old when I was five. And I've heard this story a million times from my mom when she tells everyone else to try to embarrass me. But I was under the table and I was rubbing my aunt's leg, and she wore nylons, and it stimulated my body.

00:20:06:12 - 00:20:32:20

Joshua

And fast forward to when I was 12 and in my formative years here in New York, masculine. It was defined by sex, sexual encounters, sexual engagements, how many partners you can have. And for me, that was my permission to go down manhood. Right? Because I want to be a man like everyone else. As a Latino here in New York, I grew up in East Harlem, and social influences and opportunities were there to support that.

00:20:32:22 - 00:20:52:12

Joshua

I started hanging out with sex workers when I was 16, up in Times Square before Disney bought it, and that's where I actually started having the conversations. Tell me about your story. Who are you, where do you come from? And none of that clicked until just a couple of years ago. So I would hear these stories of these trans women who were out there doing sex work for survival.

00:20:52:14 - 00:21:09:22

Joshua

And it was tough. But at the same time, there was a beauty to the suffering and the pain because they were going through the human experience. Right. And there was nothing I could do about it, but just observe and witness. I joined the military. I was in the Marines for four years. From there I went to law enforcement for ten.

00:21:10:00 - 00:21:32:22

Joshua

From law enforcement, I went into executive protection. I was doing bodyguard work for royal family and celebrities. And in that time when I was doing executive protection, now my relationship with Sex and King started from 12, I started peeing in my girlfriends at like 16 and 17, and it just gradually escalated. While I was in the military, I was the guy people would go to about sex.

00:21:32:22 - 00:21:52:08

Joshua

Tell me about this, tell me about that. And I didn't realize I was a source of information until just a couple of years ago. What? Yeah, yeah. So there's been the consistency of my relationship with not only sex, but education and affirmations. Right? If you use a vibrator, doesn't mean you left them right. It doesn't mean your cock doesn't work.

00:21:52:08 - 00:22:12:01

Joshua

It just means it's a tool. Yeah, I remember that conversation. The guy's name was Jeanette in the Marines, and he was so ashamed of his girlfriend wanting a vibrator. And I was like, do this for your benefit. So when I was doing executive protection, that was a gentleman I connected with who asked me to treat him like a dog and not in the sense of play, but in degradation and humiliation.

00:22:12:03 - 00:22:28:21

Joshua

And at the end of our scene, he looked relieved. He looked stress free, like in subspace. When I was in high school or even junior high, you know, when people ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up? My answer was, I want to help people, and that was all I could give. And that's such a big term, right?

00:22:28:22 - 00:22:50:14

Joshua

Big umbrella. And I thought the military and law enforcement and all that work would fill that. And it didn't. It wasn't until I worked with that gentleman to help him feel the way he wanted to, knowing that I allowed him to feel safe by our process. And that's where I got hooked, was I can make a difference one on one at this point and really help people be okay with themselves.

00:22:50:16 - 00:23:16:17

Joshua

That's since evolved into end of life doing the work and the NTSB counseling, which stands for Nontraditional Sexual Behavior, which is essentially a term coined for vanilla Bdsm. Right. Because people hear Bdsm, they think whips and chains, but it's all nontraditional sexual behavior. Yeah, right. Things that are out of the norm. So if a person's afraid of Bdsm and they hear NTSB, they're like, that's me, okay?

00:23:16:19 - 00:23:19:23

Joshua

And it gives them permission to talk about.

00:23:20:00 - 00:23:28:04

Luna

Wow, we but when did you become a death doula? Like, how did that enter your. Also, are you a Scorpio?

00:23:28:06 - 00:23:29:07

Joshua

I'm a Libra.

00:23:29:09 - 00:23:33:06

Luna

I'm here for right relationship okay.

00:23:33:08 - 00:23:52:22

Joshua

The end of life. Doing the work actually came through two experiences in my life. There's a little brother of ours in his mid 70s, late 70s who's never come out the closet. He's never said out loud he's a gay man to his friends or his family or his peers, and the idea of him transitioning from life to after life without ever speaking his truth is painful to me.

00:23:53:00 - 00:24:14:19

Joshua

And the other source comes from a puppy that I knew by the name of Max, and I knew Max from when he was a baby till about. I stayed with him regularly for about 7 or 8 years, and then there was a separation between his owner and myself. I hadn't seen her in a number of years, and I got invited to her house to do a photoshoot for their newborn baby, and I showed up and I couldn't see.

00:24:14:19 - 00:24:30:00

Joshua

Max was nowhere to be found. So I look over and I see him sitting on a recliner, and now he's deaf, he's blind, and they have a big ass puppy too, right? So he's just trying to do his old man thing. So when I walked over to him when he caught the scent, you could see he perked up.

00:24:30:00 - 00:24:47:02

Joshua

And I'm a dog lover, like I love dogs. And it was sad to see him in that state. So we went on to the shooting and later on he found me and he came and he put his head in my lap and I held him and I was able to reflect and I said, I don't want to forget the good things about Max.

00:24:47:04 - 00:25:08:00

Joshua

He's not going to be remembered here. I'm going to remember everything else about him. And that set in the wheels of motion, of what are we doing with our lives that we're leaving with regret or with shame that we haven't spoken out. And what can I do to help alleviate those who were advanced age advanced illness, to speak about their lives and to bring their truth to the surface?

00:25:08:00 - 00:25:18:05

Joshua

Even if it's just me, even if they are on their way out, transitioning to have that opportunity to just hold space for someone so that they can say, this is who I am, and for me to say, I see you.

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:27:17

Luna

Yeah, Kat, what about your journey? How did you get there? There's a club in there. There's domination work like this.

00:25:27:19 - 00:25:48:08

Cat

Yeah. Listen, there's a lot of stories in here, but relative to what you were asking about, like the lens through which you want to see my development, I, too, was sexually interested and then active at a fairly young age. Although, you know, I grew up here in New York, so I wasn't like the earliest one to the playground.

00:25:48:08 - 00:26:09:19

Cat

But when I jumped in it, I jumped in it hard, like I didn't realize until later, like later in high school years that I was one of those girls. Like, if a boy wanted to have sex, I was all about it because I wanted to have sex. Yeah, I found out years later that, like, girls like me get reputations, but I didn't care because I wanted to have sex and I didn't see anything wrong with it.

00:26:09:21 - 00:26:32:16

Cat

You know, as long as you were safe, like, I didn't see anything wrong with having multiple partners or multiple partners, but just, you know that. Yeah. And then I am a recovered alcoholic. So my life began to derail around high school. You know, I was supposed to go to college. I didn't quite get it together. And drinking took a larger and larger place in that part of my life.

00:26:32:21 - 00:26:56:06

Cat

I got sober at 29. In the wake of that, I began to own pieces of myself. One of them was about my sexual orientation because I had masqueraded around as a straight person for a while, even though I never really was. And so I was able to start that part of my journey. I had an interaction. I had been in two marriages and had never been in love.

00:26:56:08 - 00:27:17:01

Cat

And then I went back to college for a semester and ended up falling in love with a classmate, a woman who I had been in school with. And it's a whole messy story, but it was the first time I'd ever had that experience of being in love. And then I get sober and then I start doing things like, well, I've always had kinky thoughts and feelings, but I had no idea what to do with them.

00:27:17:01 - 00:27:36:12

Cat

So I started trying to step out. I was in San Francisco at the time. I started to try to find parties and places and education, and I did. So my journey starts there, like my kink sort of journey. My more sexual identity journey starts then, which is some time ago now. This is when I moved here 12 years ago.

00:27:36:12 - 00:28:03:02

Cat

Fast forward the story. That's when I met a partner who was already doing swing parties. And so I just sort of jumped in with both feet. So the development's been around, that sort of thing. And as a event promoter or club owner, it was always my mission to create a space that made people feel safe and comfortable. You know, people would come in and I would start a conversation by saying, so how long have you been thinking about coming?

00:28:03:02 - 00:28:24:10

Cat

And I would get answers like everything from two days to two years. You know, people don't cross the threshold of a swing club or a Bdsm club without having put some thought and feeling into it before they got there. And for a lot of people, it's the beginning of trying to overcome shame and overcome, not understanding themselves and not having communicated with their partners and all of that.

00:28:24:10 - 00:28:44:04

Cat

Right. So I would have these conversations with new people over and over again in my mission, became creating an environment safe enough and comfortable enough that, especially with couples, they would get to the end of the evening and one would say to the other, see, I told you those people were just like us, and let's do this again, as opposed to having a not good experience.

00:28:44:10 - 00:29:04:13

Cat

And one part of the couples says to the other, see, I told you those people were freaks and then they don't come back for days, months, weeks, years till they can come back to their journey. So that's been where I've taken all of my personal experience to the place of, I want to make it safe and comfortable for people to be on their journey, whatever that's going to be for them.

00:29:04:15 - 00:29:23:13

Luna

That's a monumental task. Like, can we focus on it for just a minute? Because like, that's very much what I'm interested in learning about going forward. And, you know, I am now five years into interviewing people and I'm like, oh, no, I can't do anything. Everyone's different. I don't know, you know? And now I'm in my little bubble.

00:29:23:13 - 00:29:42:09

Luna

So I go out and sit in the park and talk to people I would never run into otherwise with a little sign that says share a story. And I have things that aren't just sex because I'm realizing how scary sex is to people. And just yesterday I had an experience with someone that was so, well, several people, but the one that wrote to me, I think my relationship to shame.

00:29:42:09 - 00:29:54:05

Luna

I'm still unpacking and hearing you like creating those spaces for people. Like what insights do you have? How do you do it? Especially when people are just freshly walking in and then maybe mixing with community that already exists there?

00:29:54:07 - 00:30:20:08

Cat

One of them is that over time I just developed questions. I mean, this is one of the things and you'll hear Joshua talk about it too. A lot of what this work is, is simply asking the right questions. You know, the question that starts with, how long have you been thinking about this roots people and where they are like, right where they are and right at the most meaningful and vulnerable place of, you know, I, I talk about the the yellow brick road, right.

00:30:20:08 - 00:30:36:16

Cat

Like if you grow up in a heteronormative it like if everything is vanilla, you live in a world that's inside of a white picket fence and everything's broken. You never have to think a thing about your life. You go to college, you get a job, you have friends, you go to bachelor parties, you go to weddings, you go to funerals.

00:30:36:18 - 00:30:56:12

Cat

Your whole life can happen. And you don't have to think one thing about it. If, however, at a certain point in your journey, you discover that you're a man and you have a fascination with pantyhose, you're a woman and you want to kiss your best friend more than you want to kiss your husband. Like anything that occurs to you that makes you aware of your difference than everyone around you.

00:30:56:16 - 00:31:03:12

Cat

Yeah, you're in a liminal place between this is how I know I feel about myself and what or if can I do about it?

00:31:03:16 - 00:31:04:04

Joshua

Yeah.

00:31:04:09 - 00:31:22:10

Cat

And then when you get to the place where you're willing to like, open the picket fence and step out, when I say to people as now you're like, Dorothy, you're on the yellow brick road, hey, you can't go back. You'll never be able to go back and be. You're on a very broad road where it's like, welcome, join us.

00:31:22:10 - 00:31:39:21

Cat

And then nothing about your journey is wrong. Nothing about your timing is off. Like we're all out here on the yellow brick road having our own journeys, and all we do is share that with each other. So I tell that story to people all the time. So where are you? Where are you? Just stepping out. Tell me about that.

00:31:39:23 - 00:32:02:23

Cat

What is that like for you? What are you just asking questions about what's happening for you and then holding a space that says, and it's great, whatever you're going to say, like you're good, like, so people can just speak. There's nothing more magical about creating safe space for people than just let them feel safe to share what's going on.

00:32:03:01 - 00:32:21:08

Joshua

Yeah. No, no. How are you different than everyone around you is a question we're going to put in our intensive because that's such a impactful question, right? Because everyone feels like we're the only ones in this world. Yes. And we're all the same. The paint jobs just look different, right? We all still feel shame, joy, happiness, sadness, grief.

00:32:21:10 - 00:32:36:06

Joshua

We all have the same feelings. They just come in different forms. Yeah. So when you ask the question, how are you different than everyone around you? That gives the person holding the space to hear it, but then to say, wait a second, we're not that different. You just think you're alone in this world, right when you're not right.

00:32:36:08 - 00:32:55:21

Cat

And the questions were crafted and honed for years of sitting with people, years of sitting with people, asking questions, looking for the light that comes on in their faces, to know that we got them to the place where they're connecting to the conversation, and they're starting to feel like it's okay and safe to talk about who they are and what they're experiencing.

00:32:55:23 - 00:33:13:15

Joshua

On top of that, everyone feels like they're behind someone else, like, oh my God, I'm already 30 something, I'm 40 something, I'm 50 something, and I'm just getting here. Especially when it comes to shame and unpacking. Who are we and how did we get here? It's like there's no time limit on it and it's all circumstantial, right? There's no one behind anyone.

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:33:02

Joshua

No one is delayed. We're not just getting here, right. It's all circumstantial. And once we can understand that we aren't our past, right? They're just circumstances in how we got here, right? It really helps people move through that and let go of the. Why am I so late? Why am I so this why am I so that it's like, look, you're good.

00:33:33:04 - 00:33:34:22

Cat

Yeah. Why isn't even the right question?

00:33:34:22 - 00:33:35:18

Joshua

Why isn't.

00:33:35:20 - 00:33:54:04

Luna

It not. Yes. Yeah. And in fact, it's the least interesting question oftentimes because it's most likely to make people accident mad at me when I ask it. So I've learned not to ask why usually. But I am so curious. And then I'm just like, well, you know, so that's such a good point, you know? And people do, myself included.

00:33:54:06 - 00:34:14:01

Luna

I'm still walking around feeling like I'm late to every party and weird in my own unique ways. And yet the more that I speak with others, the more I'm like, oh, we're all weird with air quotes. It's just the details are different and we all feel late because every time I'm an adult, I'm an adult and I feel like I should know the things and I discover something I didn't know, I'm like, damn it, I should have known it, you know?

00:34:14:01 - 00:34:37:12

Luna

But it's actually I wouldn't be here helping people if all the things that I can't stand about myself on those days where self-acceptance is low, you know, if I had all of that, I wouldn't be creating bumps in the world that are helping me spread ripples of love. I was introduced to you by one of my sweet listeners who said that you have this great wisdom communicating when it comes to consent.

00:34:37:14 - 00:34:47:22

Luna

Is that something you feel comfy speaking to a little girl? Just kind of like, how do you overview people when you're in charge of holding a safe space, whether it's in a private session with someone or in a group setting?

00:34:48:00 - 00:35:03:10

Cat

Some time ago, I've had a few partners husbands, however you want to look at it. I was here in New York City. I was still living in California. I was here in New York City, and we found this was in the days before the internet, honestly. And so we finally found a party to go to a swing club.

00:35:03:12 - 00:35:26:08

Cat

And we went and he and I were walking around and trying to figure out what it was felt like, what do we want to do? And we finally sat down on a that area and turned to each other to sort of engage. And then I had this feeling like over my shoulder. And I looked around and there were these guys everywhere, literally with their cocks in their hands, like in my space.

00:35:26:10 - 00:35:59:11

Cat

And I remember looking up, my instinct was to find someone to help, to stop. And there was no one. And I didn't know then that I was going to be a club owner later. But in some ways, that experience informed a lot of what I felt like people needed to know about. Yeah, right. So over the time, over the development of my experience as a club owner, what I did was I developed a series of statements about how the space was going to be and how your behavior was expected to be inside of the space.

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:20:06

Cat

You know, the club would open at whatever time people would come in over a period of time. And then I would do a group and, you know, okay, everybody in the room, here it is. And 15, 20 whatever points about what was expected of you, if you were going to be in the space and what did consent look like, and what did it mean to be safe and what did it mean to be respectful?

00:36:20:08 - 00:36:28:10

Cat

And the expectation is, is that you will be that here or you will not be here. I did that at the outset of every party that I threw.

00:36:28:12 - 00:36:48:07

Joshua

When Kat and I connected. That was one of the first things I saw when she was hosting an event, was keeping the place space closed for the first 45 minutes and making everyone socialize. And we've since evolved that when we host our events so that everyone knows each other so that there's named people name tags, the idea is so that you're aware of the people's names.

00:36:48:11 - 00:37:12:00

Joshua

The other emphasis on it is equality, right? No one's anyone's dominant, no one's anyone's submissive. We're all here to explore, to work through boundary pushing for some people, right. Experiential for others. And when I saw how she opened her events of keeping the place space closed for 45 minutes and making everyone sit there and treat each other like people before they become objects in the back.

00:37:12:00 - 00:37:35:17

Joshua

By consent, by choice. Yeah. And the rule reading evolved into going from a swing event to larger Bdsm events. There has to be more guidelines on the expectations of what what we're expecting of people. But it's not only just a reading of the rules, but we also give examples, right? Because if a person doesn't quite grasp it, we give solid examples so that they can't say, well, I didn't know.

00:37:35:19 - 00:37:59:14

Cat

I'm kind of hardcore at some levels, right around the edges. I'm not necessarily soft and fuzzy in some ways, and I made it really clear the level of consent that was required to be in my space. The level of consent that was required to continue to be in my space. So I spell that out. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I don't pull punches when it comes to speaking what I mean and saying how things need to go.

00:37:59:16 - 00:38:20:14

Cat

The development of all that language around consent. I since have found out who it is that you're referring to in terms of one of your listeners. Right. And so I appreciate that they appreciated what we used to do at the club by way of doing the announcements every time. And, you know, it's nice to know that upon reflection, I come up in the top ten of people who do consent chats.

00:38:20:16 - 00:38:28:03

Joshua

We hear it from other people, like people who just say, we hear about what you do. And ultimately the rule reading is about consent, comfort and safety.

00:38:28:05 - 00:38:46:03

Luna

Yes, it's a gift to everyone in attendance, and I actually think that that is a bomb ass way to be hardcore. Like, in fact, the only reason I have any designs on a space of my own in the future is because I just haven't found a space here that I like. I don't like going, I'm shy. I'm a little bit on the autism spectrum.

00:38:46:03 - 00:39:05:13

Luna

Going to a loud thing is already hard for me. I want to touch everyone, but like I need a human connection. Stranger play is boring for me. Like I can fuck strangers wherever I go. They hit on me, you know, like, so I'm looking for that connection and I just, I really admire that. What else would you say makes each of you awesome at what you do?

00:39:05:13 - 00:39:07:05

Luna

Like what makes you excellent?

00:39:07:06 - 00:39:22:12

Joshua

So for the event hosting, when I started hosting events, I was the same thing for me. I just got tired of the superficial connections. What are you into? I'm into this. Let's go play and blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, listen, everyone's into almost the same shit. Just talk. Yeah. Be people. That's how people before kink are.

00:39:22:12 - 00:39:39:15

Joshua

Foundation are the philosophy before the intensives we host came to pass people before kink. You are who you are before what you are. What I do at the events is I make sure I meet everyone that comes to the door so that they have someone, that they know the head of the party, so that they don't feel alone.

00:39:39:18 - 00:39:58:22

Joshua

Because that's what I would do. I pay to go into a space. And there we are, among 100 other strangers and no one's talking. And it's like it's so disconnecting that it's like a fetish factory. Not you, Glenn in Florida, not fetish factory. The store. But it's like like a skate park, right? It's like, look at the cool shit I do.

00:39:59:01 - 00:40:16:06

Joshua

And it's like, that's awesome. But understand the vulnerability, the investment that everyone makes into each other to create these spaces for each other. It is not about you walking into this space. It's about what do you bring to the space to help maintain its cohesiveness and its peace.

00:40:16:08 - 00:40:17:16

Cat

All right. What was the question?

00:40:17:18 - 00:40:18:00

Joshua

What do.

00:40:18:00 - 00:40:21:17

Luna

You do? What else do you do that makes you phenomenal or excellent?

00:40:21:19 - 00:40:23:12

Joshua

She's the hammer I was.

00:40:23:12 - 00:40:42:11

Cat

About to say. Right. Like people used to say to me, like, well, what's security at your club? And I'm like me. People would look at me askance. I'm like, I'm old. I was old enough at some point to be almost everybody's mother, and no boy in particular wants to be taken out of the playroom and scolded about their sex behavior.

00:40:42:13 - 00:40:58:20

Cat

If it would come down to them having to come to get me to talk to somebody, you were in trouble. I've never had trouble being that the heavy. Right. Like, I'll take you out of the room and I'll tell you exactly what's going on and exactly how much longer you get to be here. Until I'm throwing you out and what it's going to take.

00:40:58:22 - 00:41:17:17

Cat

I'm the person who fires me. I'm the person who does all of that heavy lifting. And I do think that some of what makes me good at what I do, because I do have. So I do have something to back that up. Thank. Right? Yes. I do have the ability to back that up. Oh yeah. But that coupled also with the ability to see people, I can see stress.

00:41:17:18 - 00:41:35:18

Cat

I can see distress in your face. Like I'll have conversations with people that are challenging and they'll go to cry five times, let's say, and pull it back. And every time think that they somehow fool me and we'll be talking and I'll be like. And that part where you didn't want to cry. And they look at me like they've been found out.

00:41:35:18 - 00:41:47:13

Cat

I'm like, I see people, right? And I can communicate with you in a way that lets you know that you've actually been seen. So that is the softer side of me. Yeah. When I'm not busy being having.

00:41:47:15 - 00:41:56:08

Luna

Do you feel like that's a skill you've developed over the years, or is that just like a natural get? Well, I'm sure you've developed it, even if it's a natural gift. But how do you understand the kind of that part of yourself?

00:41:56:10 - 00:42:12:18

Cat

It's hard to say. You know, I say this to people a lot. Like almost everything I know, I learned through the journey of my sobriety. Right? There's a million things like, you know, you run around people who are who do recovery stuff and you learn lots of things. And some of it is about being a sober woman, right?

00:42:12:18 - 00:42:39:07

Cat

Like I learned how to sit with people. I learned how to sit with myself. And at the same time, I'll say, that's one of the things I'm still learning how to do myself is that, you know, with myself and for myself. But I do think that the journey through sobriety, the journey through having my life completely crash and burn and what does it look like to pick yourself up and find another way to live, I think contributes to my ability to see that in other people.

00:42:39:09 - 00:42:40:10

Joshua

00:42:40:12 - 00:42:56:07

Luna

Just as I was listening to you both talk, thinking about the space that you're creating, you know, like you said, it's not a factory. It's almost like you're creating a space where people can be their full authentic selves and express their artistry through their sexuality. Because it's like if I'm working with another artist, as a painter, as a photographers, whatever.

00:42:56:07 - 00:43:11:14

Luna

Like if we just get together like, okay, let's go. It's what? But if we take a little bit of time to understand each other's like ethos or do even just personality, like, then we can figure out how we actually want to collaborate and play together. So it sounds like you guys create excellent space for that to happen.

00:43:11:20 - 00:43:16:18

Cat

One of the terms we've co-opted from somewhere else is to say we're making better people through the guise of kinky sex.

00:43:16:19 - 00:43:18:04

Joshua

Co-opted. I made that shit up.

00:43:18:04 - 00:43:24:19

Luna

Oh, turn, I love that. Oh, maybe Cat co-opted it from Joshua.

00:43:24:21 - 00:43:45:07

Joshua

That's it. Yeah, because that's what we do. It's like people want to learn the modalities and stuff, but they don't quite grasp the responsibilities and the power behind the connection and vulnerability. Yes. And it's like through our intensives and the work together that we do with people, the introspective work, the healing that we're asking people to do for themselves is going to make them better for themselves.

00:43:45:08 - 00:44:05:13

Joshua

Yeah. And when they're done working with us, when they've come through the intensives or we're working one on one on the other side of it, they raise their own threshold of authenticity, and they get to set the example moving forward on how to change life to be true to themselves, moving forward. And that inspires the people around them.

00:44:05:15 - 00:44:22:00

Joshua

Right? And they generally come to us because they want to learn about kink and sex. And it's like, well, here's the homework. Here's a five hour intake form to do. Yes. Just so that you have language around your own identity. Yeah. Co-opted. Let's see everyone on that list came from.

00:44:22:02 - 00:44:38:21

Cat

Yeah. But I mean, we we do counseling, work with people. We recently worked with a couple and they dug in deep. We spent 4 or 5 days with them, which is a very different way of approaching counseling that we do, which is to just stay in it for several days in a row and really dig stuff up and take a look at things.

00:44:38:21 - 00:45:08:11

Cat

And they were willing to work really hard, and they came out the other side of it with their relationship better, with their ability to communicate with themselves and each other increased and improved. And those are life changing changes. When you beat your head up against the wall, the same wall with a partner, let's say, and your communication gets cyclical, repetitive, and you're not getting anywhere to be able to have that block like sort of knocked out and find other language and find a way to learn to sit.

00:45:08:11 - 00:45:38:19

Cat

We watch them learn to sit with each other, even in the days we were there together to really be in touch with themselves, to have the courage. Because a lot of times I may know about myself, but I don't have the courage to say it to you out loud. Right? And part of what we do in making space for people is give them the courage to speak, because we create a safe enough container, like if a couple can sit with us and we create the safety for them to begin to speak to each other because we're their almost as referees, what they do is they get legs on them for how to do this.

00:45:38:19 - 00:45:58:12

Cat

Even when we're not around, how can they begin to speak with each other more authentically, offer up more of their truth to the other one, knowing that they know now how to not judge the other one, how to hear each other, how to create the feeling seen and heard that we create for others. And then they do it for each other and then take it moving forward like they're doing it with their kids.

00:45:58:12 - 00:46:02:03

Cat

It's like it just spills out from there. Wow.

00:46:02:05 - 00:46:10:21

Luna

Yeah. Would you tell us a little bit more about the intensive work you do with people, like, how were they invited in? How do people kind of connect with you? What does that look like right now?

00:46:10:23 - 00:46:30:04

Joshua

So our intensive program is called the Power Exchange Academy. And this is leaning towards the kink journey. It starts off with an intake form where folks will receive 20, 30 questions for themselves, essentially to do a personal inventory on who am I, where am I, where am I at today on these fundamental questions? And none of it is based on kink.

00:46:30:06 - 00:46:50:05

Joshua

It's all about identity. So like we have an intensive coming up in Eastern Mountain here in New York in a town called Grant green, which not Grant green, which New York. I've got corrected by the locals so they'll get the intake form. They show up Thursday afternoon. We have our opening circle and our show and tell and a couple other things for that evening.

00:46:50:07 - 00:47:18:10

Joshua

Come Friday morning, our foundation program called Connection Simplified is a program where it was developed off of the work that we would do doing professional domination, where I hold space for person, they share with me their identity. And in that process of sharing is where a lot of the healing comes, because they're validating themselves. I'm validating them. They're speaking their own truth, self actualizing, by sharing this information about themselves.

00:47:18:10 - 00:47:36:09

Joshua

And it's almost like a accountability questions. For example, one of them is give me three characteristics that make you feel drawn to a person. Or what does trust mean to you and what does it take to build? Why do you matter things like this so that it makes a person think and speak their truth in front of a total stranger, who in turn is going to reciprocate the same thing.

00:47:36:11 - 00:47:58:02

Joshua

And in that way we're providing the space for them to experience vulnerability, authenticity, self-actualization in a safe container that's created for them to process their introspection in the safety of an education space. On the other side of this, they realize that I can speak to a total stranger, someone I would have never spoken to a day in my life.

00:47:58:04 - 00:48:16:01

Joshua

And we have so much more in common than we don't. And in that process, what they learn is, wow, how many relationships could I have passed up on my life because they didn't hit the social markers or my expectations and what I needed to do to fill in these empty slots in my life, and it really flips them upside down.

00:48:16:03 - 00:48:38:13

Joshua

What happens after that? Once we've established this connection, the ability to speak without feeling shamed or judged through that experience, we bring in the modalities so we can learn. Not if this is for me, but how can I enjoy this? How can I get to yes versus no? I don't like that. And the one modality that I always use that almost gets everyone all the time is punching.

00:48:38:19 - 00:48:53:15

Joshua

Because we have this yes, no, maybe list of kinks that we send out so that people can review but not answer, but just so that they can have it in their mind. And the one I bring up is punching. Are you into punching? And most people go, no, I don't like to be punched in my face. And it's like, I'm not going to punch you in the face.

00:48:53:17 - 00:49:13:22

Joshua

Have you ever had a massage? And they'll say, yes. And I go, have you ever had them do this into your muscle parts? And they go, yes, like, you know, that's called. And they'll look at me and I'll say it's called punching because it's a close hand fist impact. Yeah. Some people may be triggered by it being impacted with a punch with a closed hand because of abuse, domestic violence, assault, whatever it was.

00:49:14:00 - 00:49:33:07

Joshua

But that's information, right? Because most of the time, 99% of the time it goes from no to fuck. Yes, because yes, I like to have impacted my muscles. So that's a yes for punching. And the intention behind the program is how do we make it accessible? Not if kink is for me, but how is kink for me. Yeah.

00:49:33:08 - 00:49:46:20

Joshua

And we continue the next three days with that. They're immersed into the modalities, into the programs so that they can learn how to communicate. You're not going to learn the most flashy techniques. We just want to make sure that you know that you can do it for yourself.

00:49:46:22 - 00:49:50:09

Cat

Most people are kinky, whether they know it or not.

00:49:50:11 - 00:49:51:06

Joshua

I say all I say.

00:49:51:06 - 00:49:58:11

Luna

Everywhere they are, whether they label it that, whether it's conscious or not. The more I talk to people, I'm like, wait, but you like what you don't like? Okay.

00:49:58:11 - 00:50:15:07

Cat

Oh, I we don't have time for this. But I've had some crazy conversations with people who led the conversation by saying, oh, I don't know anything about that. I don't. And then, you know, ten minutes in there, like relaying some of the craziest kinky stuff that they're engaged in. Yes. With no sense that they're kinky at all. So, yes, that's the.

00:50:15:07 - 00:50:33:13

Joshua

Thing. The people who say no, I'm not are afraid to look at the shadow here. I'm off to their side because either they don't trust the people there with the religion or some other form of belief has told them not to. Yes, but when they dig deep inside and it's not for me to know. I don't care if you do or you don't, but you should.

00:50:33:15 - 00:50:54:11

Joshua

I think you should know what you're afraid of and what you're afraid to talk about. Because on the back end of life, that's regret, right? Imagine the things I could have done with my life. And I waited so long. And here I am dying. And now it's too late. Right? It's like that's to the degree of shame or lack of introspection or just admitting to oneself.

00:50:54:12 - 00:50:57:16

Joshua

It's okay that I desire something that's nontraditional.

00:50:57:18 - 00:51:00:09

Luna

Yeah, man. Yeah, people need to hear that.

00:51:00:12 - 00:51:25:11

Cat

The other thing that I think is helpful about what we do when we use this language is to see and hear another person. I mean, being seen and heard without judgment is always, you know, the tagline to that is very affirming and very empowering. Yeah. But also learning how to see and hear another. We hold space, but we teach people how to hold space for themselves and for others.

00:51:25:13 - 00:51:36:00

Cat

And I think that's some of where the power comes from in terms of what we do from the standpoint of people taking skill sets from what we do and bringing it into their lives.

00:51:36:05 - 00:51:52:20

Joshua

It's definitely the communication base. That's the biggest impact. And the coolest thing about it is you only have to experience it one time. You only have to go through and speak your truth to a total stranger, and to see and hear what they share back with you, to see that you're not alone in what you thought were your own struggles in life.

00:51:52:20 - 00:51:55:23

Joshua

For your own experiences or in anything.

00:51:55:23 - 00:52:13:18

Cat

Yeah, we've had some of the most mind blowing feedback. We did. An intensive ones were two women were paired together who we never imagined, neither did they imagine that they had anything to do with each other by their markers. And one had to do with the issue of being trans. And so the conversation for them went to why?

00:52:13:19 - 00:52:33:20

Cat

Why do we use the term cisgendered? Right. Like they didn't understand that. And the trans woman was able to explain why and the importance of it. And the other woman's mind was blown and she'll never be the same. Like her understanding and insight into something she had no way of understanding prior to sitting with this other woman was life changing.

00:52:33:22 - 00:53:01:04

Joshua

Ultimately, the question was why do you use the term cis? And the trans woman said, because if we didn't use the word cis, the word that they would use is real, and that would negate us as trans women. Dude, listen, everyone's jaw dropped. People were crying because it's legit. And the one who shared the cyst, woman that shared was like blown away because she realized the importance of validating another human's experience just by using another word.

00:53:01:06 - 00:53:03:06

Joshua

Game changer. Game changer. Yeah.

00:53:03:07 - 00:53:22:02

Cat

That's the kind of stuff. When we have moments like that in intensives, I like, say, how did I get to be this lucky that I'm in this room? You know, we facilitate, we don't teach anybody anything really. We just facilitate experience for people. We facilitate learning and experience. That's what it is like. We don't teach anything that you could learn on YouTube.

00:53:22:04 - 00:53:28:22

Cat

We don't teach by standing up in front of a class and lecturing. We'll talk for five minutes and then it's like, here you go, it's in your hands. What are you doing?

00:53:28:22 - 00:53:30:08

Joshua

Let's do.

00:53:30:10 - 00:53:36:00

Cat

It. Let's do it. Like all of our intensives are all about having you do all the things.

00:53:36:02 - 00:53:43:07

Joshua

The only thing we can share in these classes is wisdom. Through our own experiences in the same information we're providing them to do themselves.

00:53:43:09 - 00:53:48:02

Luna

Those are the best lessons, just holding space for people and letting them actually put the pieces together.

00:53:48:05 - 00:53:48:14

Joshua

Yes.

00:53:48:19 - 00:54:01:14

Luna

What are some of the reactions you have gotten over the years when you tell people what you do, like at any point on your journeys, like how do people respond to you? Especially if you're like, I don't fucking care, here's who I am. Like, what is that been like?

00:54:01:16 - 00:54:32:23

Joshua

So what I do is because I have fun with it. I try to make people agree with everything that I'm doing, regardless of how staunch against it they are. Because I make I boil it down to human interactions and belief. Right? Don't you want to feel? Imagine? And I tell it to people like this were hard against. I said, essentially what I do is I want people to think about the person in their life that they feel the most authentic with 100%, and then I help them use that baseline to get through all the relationships in their life, so that they don't have to feel any less than.

00:54:33:04 - 00:54:54:16

Joshua

I also bring in religion into it, especially if they're religious. I talk about belief system and what does God want from you? And I'll have them break it down to me, and then I'll pull up my own examples of how this is the same thing is the belief system of the leather lifestyle is ultimately, in my perspective, a belief system of characteristics, morals, right?

00:54:54:16 - 00:55:14:21

Joshua

Traits on social norms, how do I treat people in my kind and my open and my honest and my transparent? Am I doing what's right? Because ultimately, if we want to get to the upper echelons of vulnerability and kink, we have to be truthful with each other to a point where there's no doubt that what I'm telling you is the truth.

00:55:14:23 - 00:55:34:17

Joshua

Now imagine the only difference between my belief system and yours is I will accept you no matter how you come from, whatever sexual identity or orientation you have. Because I believe that is the deepest connection to human beings can have is intimacy and vulnerability. Sex happens to be a byproduct of that. And then I'll flip it back to them.

00:55:34:23 - 00:55:43:10

Joshua

How are you living up to your belief systems? And then I'll say, wouldn't you want that in your life? It's like, what do you say, no, I don't want authenticity.

00:55:43:12 - 00:55:45:19

Cat

He's very persuasive.

00:55:45:21 - 00:55:50:11

Joshua

I want to move people past the judgment by putting them into our shoes.

00:55:50:13 - 00:56:03:12

Cat

I think it bears emphasizing. He doesn't say, how are you living? According to my belief system or your church's belief system? He's like, how are you living according to your what is your belief system and how are you living up to that? That's a.

00:56:03:12 - 00:56:10:05

Luna

Beautiful invitation. What about you can't like what have you run into with, you know, telling people what you do in the world?

00:56:10:07 - 00:56:26:09

Cat

I didn't run into a lot of judgment or negativity around what I was doing or that I was doing it. It was mostly like, oh, that sounds so like, tell me about that. What is that? Like, if I talk long enough, what I usually get is do you should write a book. That's usually what people say to me after fashion.

00:56:26:11 - 00:56:32:22

Luna

Totally. What would you say are the hardest parts of the work that you have done over the years?

00:56:33:00 - 00:56:58:02

Joshua

I guess from my side is marketing. How do I get the people who need this work in through the door? Yeah, the work is not I love what I do is it's stressful financially at times. Covid was a motherfucker, right? Yeah, but I don't not want to do this work in getting the message, finding the right language. If there's a marketing person out there watching this and you want to help dude, reach out because I could use I could use your help and it would change my life forever.

00:56:58:08 - 00:57:11:16

Joshua

But ultimately, that's the hardest part, is the right language to get the right people through the door. Because people will ask us, well, who was this intensive? Who is your work best for? And it's like anyone who's looking to do their own personal development, not a lot of people want to do that.

00:57:11:22 - 00:57:34:21

Cat

Yeah. And this work, the introspective work that can connection simplified work has nothing to do with kink at all. Right. So some of the work that we do is bringing the connection, simplified process to corporations, to people on the spiritual plane, without having to do anything with kink, because that's what this work does. I mean, everyone will benefit from being connected with themselves and finding the language to communicate who they are to the people around them.

00:57:34:23 - 00:58:01:15

Cat

That's not solely in the purview of kinky people. That's anybody. Right? So definitely the marketing piece. I've had trouble because I do all of the behind the scenes stuff. And so I just literally this week, I have a solution to doing this all alone. I have a team that just formed, but I'm really excited to start working with, to begin to unburied myself from the pile of administrative stuff that I can never get ahead of on my own.

00:58:01:17 - 00:58:03:01

Luna

I feel that that's incredible.

00:58:03:07 - 00:58:22:23

Joshua

I'm also working on a book called Healing Through Kink, which is going to be a workbook for folks to do this introspective work by themselves. But also, I'm going to use this book to help certified mental health professionals to talk with their clients and walk with their clients through this process of understanding self, because it's not about knowledge, but you can read a million books and have all this information.

00:58:23:00 - 00:58:39:04

Joshua

It's like, and I always use this analogy, you can't teach someone how to swim if you've never been in the water. Yeah, you can learn all the techniques, all the safety of the breathing, all the strokes out of a book. But until you hit that water and you can't feel the ground when you have that oh, shit realization shit's real, right?

00:58:39:04 - 00:59:07:12

Joshua

It's like I think Bruce Lee was talking about black belts. If you hit him in the face once in a fight, they go down to brown belt. Then you hit him again. It's like once you're in the stress levels of it all that knowledge goes out to the wayside and it becomes very survival based. Right? So it's like when you're working through the shame in this fear, you're asking your client to reflect to you some of the scariest things in their life, and you have no idea what they're feeling in their body through that, because you haven't done it yourself.

00:59:07:14 - 00:59:29:12

Luna

I've been there. I'm a really good example of a person who has just been taking in other people's knowledge and books and theoretical knowledge and, you know, in the last year or two that I've really been going out in the world to gather my own experiences, having that touchstone in my body and then seeing how it progresses over time and how like it's it's a completely different experience.

00:59:29:14 - 00:59:42:18

Luna

I would love to hear your insights on what you have learned through your work about sexual shame. I know it's a huge topic, but I would just love to hear. Kind of like what stands out to you?

00:59:42:20 - 01:00:07:20

Joshua

People aren't doing enough work on their childhood. People aren't reflecting on how they learned on their relationship with sex, touch, intimacy, interpersonal relationships. Everyone's checking in with where they're at now and moving forward and saying, okay, that happened to me. And they make their life experiences. They bring it just to the threshold of awareness versus processing it and understanding what happened.

01:00:07:22 - 01:00:38:08

Joshua

And also trying to decouple the emotional connections to it, to understand the circumstances of those in their life or in that circumstance that they're reflecting on in order to heal from it, more people need to do the introspection and the reflection work into their childhood to understand how they got here. Once you can understand how you got here, can you make much larger strides in order to work through that shame as opposed to saying, well, that's something that just happened in my past and I know about it.

01:00:38:10 - 01:00:45:11

Joshua

So that's that. That's how I come to be today in this. Like that's just the first step of actually working through that is awareness.

01:00:45:12 - 01:01:03:15

Cat

I think most shame stems from judgment. You know, you were a young person. You expressed the thought of feeling exhibiting a behavior and you were judged. And so shame is the internalized version of judgment, right? Like I was judged, therefore I judged myself.

01:01:03:18 - 01:01:04:09

Joshua

Yeah.

01:01:04:11 - 01:01:25:10

Cat

To me that is the nature of shame, right? So some of the way out of that is to stop judging. And some of the way out of that is the process that we go through. Well, how do you hold space for another person and not judge? It's much easier to start with, I'll stop judging you, right? Stopping judging myself is not easy, especially if you've been doing it for years.

01:01:25:10 - 01:01:50:01

Cat

It's been ingrained in you from the time that you were a child. Some of it involves what Joshua just said about having to go back and untangle what the judgments were. And where did they come from? Did they come from uptight parents and they come from religiosity? Like, where did they come from? And understanding all of that. But I do think it's untangling judgments, external and internal from your life experience that helps you walk out of shame.

01:01:50:03 - 01:01:50:22

Joshua

Yeah.

01:01:51:00 - 01:02:08:23

Luna

I would love to hear how your professional work has influenced your personal life and or vice versa, because I know, like me, maybe you are people who will. You said it earlier, Joshua. Your life is in parallel, like so. I would love to hear any specific kind of like noodling takeaways on just the influence that you've noticed.

01:02:09:01 - 01:02:45:07

Joshua

I have two clients that come to mind that really impacted my life. Holy, holy. There's a Catholic priest that I work with. He's been a priest for, I think 41 or 42 years now. Just as long as I've been alive. And after our first session, I walked him through his relationship with God. Right. Because he had a lot of doubt and self-judgment on the experience that we shared together in domination, that he was worried God would be angry or disappointed because he's been a man of the cloth for 40 something years, and being able to talk him through that inner turmoil he was having.

01:02:45:11 - 01:03:07:01

Joshua

What does God want from you? I was someone who stepped away from church organized religion many years ago, and I found my connection to God through Bdsm, through my work, not through the work in and of itself, but the process of connection. Yes, to hold space for someone who's been a priest as long as I've been alive, because he needed to be walked through.

01:03:07:01 - 01:03:31:19

Joshua

His relationship with God was validating isn't even the word. It was like there was an awareness in that of the work that I'm doing that said, it is much bigger than you could put words to. And there was another gentleman who was married for 20 or 30 something years to a woman. He got divorced, he came out the closet, and he had this huge negative space in his heart towards women.

01:03:31:21 - 01:03:55:19

Joshua

And through our process and through meeting Cat, he realized that it's not all women. It was the woman he was married to. At the end of our session, all the work and conversations that this guy and I had, there's a painting or statue or ton of it called the Peter, right where Mary is holding Jesus, I don't know, is a painting or statue, but it's out there where Mary's holding Jesus.

01:03:55:19 - 01:04:19:00

Joshua

Right? And at the end of our session, I was holding him. He was crying, and I could have sworn I felt light come from the sky onto us to see. You have completed the whole human experience from meeting, sharing to being vulnerable, to helping each other heal and validate each other to this moment of peace. At the end of it was like, this is what the human experience is about.

01:04:19:02 - 01:04:39:16

Joshua

And there's been nothing like that, nothing so big like that. And I've had a lot of incredible experiences, but that one was really grounding to me. That said, you were walking well, but you're walking the path well. And I found my purpose through this profession, through this journey. I can't ask of my clients what I'm not willing to do myself either.

01:04:39:18 - 01:04:50:18

Joshua

And that's the introspective work. That's the self accountability. Having the hard talks with my partners in my life. Right. And it's like, I can't ask you to do something that I'm not willing to do myself.

01:04:50:20 - 01:04:54:15

Luna

Yeah, what about you, Cat? What if you noticed you're.

01:04:54:15 - 01:05:27:08

Cat

I'm supposed to follow that, you know, because you ask the question both ways. Work impact life. Life impact work. I've been sober for it'll be 30 years this year. And I really have to say that all the things that I've learned in my journey of being and becoming a sober woman have probably impacted all the areas of my life, including work, in the most meaningful way and the most effective in the biggest way has been that, you know, in the course of my journey around other recovered people, there's a million phrases in the community that I'm in.

01:05:27:10 - 01:05:43:15

Cat

You know, we always like to say that we're a little dumb. We need everything, like in five words or less like this. But anytime I'm with people, those phrases all come to mind. Those little clips of how to live a better life that I got there have served me in good stead in every other area of my life.

01:05:43:17 - 01:05:44:12

Joshua

01:05:44:14 - 01:05:52:00

Luna

Do you have anything to say about boundaries between personal and professional life? How do you think about them? Does that come up for you?

01:05:52:01 - 01:06:17:23

Joshua

It's tough. I believe they're there and they should exist. With that being said, slave marry, who I've been with for over three years now, started off as a client and I don't pursue intimate or personal relationships with clients. What happened there was she was at the lowest point of her life when we met, and her asking for guidance and leaning into it and seeing how she turned her whole life around was so inspiring and so influential.

01:06:18:01 - 01:06:41:18

Joshua

She came to me about deepening it. And when someone because I don't, I'm like the reluctant Dom. I don't want power exchanges. But her commitment to herself was inspiring and motivating for me to say yes, let's continue talking and let's see how it develops. And now she's been my slave for over two years. It's been incredible to watch her grow.

01:06:41:20 - 01:07:03:09

Joshua

That is one out of 100. Nor do I seek that with my clients. I do maintain friendships because what we are sharing is vulnerable. But for boundary, when I'm working with clients, it's about you. It's not about me. In my personal life, it's about us. Yes, sometimes me, but us. Yeah, but in my professional relationship, it is one way.

01:07:03:09 - 01:07:13:15

Joshua

No. Two way. Yes, I'm getting there's the flow of energy and you're paying me and we're working together and stuff like that. But the focal point isn't about me. The focal points about you. Yeah.

01:07:13:17 - 01:07:16:07

Luna

Can't do anything to add.

01:07:16:09 - 01:07:38:12

Cat

Other than to say I think boundaries are where it's at. I think a lot of people's experiences in life, in interpersonal relationships that are challenging, come from not having boundaries, not knowing how to set boundaries, not knowing how to like I call police boundaries, not knowing that it's okay or necessary to have boundaries. Yeah, I can talk about boundaries for a long time.

01:07:38:14 - 01:07:47:18

Luna

I feel that your vibe for enforcing them are you just very straight forward? Like, are you just like, no, that's not going to work. Or you like, do this instead? Like, what do you do? Okay, you like it.

01:07:47:18 - 01:07:51:17

Joshua

So this phase kind of can.

01:07:51:19 - 01:08:11:00

Cat

Yeah, I mean, I, I've been doing recovery work around codependency for probably even longer than around alcoholism. And you don't come out of the codependent whole without learning about boundaries. Yeah. And without learning what it is. And back then did I struggle? Absolutely. Was it hard? Did I believe you know, I believe the things that I think a lot of people believe.

01:08:11:00 - 01:08:32:04

Cat

No, you won't like me if I set a boundary, I'll be alone. Nobody want to be with, like, all the reasons people don't want to set boundaries. Yeah, because you don't understand what they are and how they work. Once you have some experience setting them, seeing the effects of them, understanding that like that's the way to the life you want to have, then suddenly becomes easier to want to do, easier to find ways to do.

01:08:32:06 - 01:08:49:01

Cat

But it's not easy if you come from a place, as I did, from not having any or not knowing how to have them, to having them and putting them in place and seeing what that's about. I mean, the work stuff ones, I mean, I, you know, I was in the hospitality business for a long time, and those kind of boundaries to me are very straightforward and simple.

01:08:49:01 - 01:08:55:03

Cat

You know, you don't have sex with people you work with, you know, like all of that stuff almost seems to go without saying.

01:08:55:05 - 01:08:58:06

Luna

Some of us need everything said out loud.

01:08:58:08 - 01:09:01:04

Joshua

Yeah, no sex with your coworkers. I feel like.

01:09:01:06 - 01:09:20:21

Luna

I'm like a fucking coworker everywhere I've ever worked. I don't know, I think as I'm talking to you both too, I'm reflecting not just, you know, we hear conversations about boundaries and we're like, oh, how we need them. But I imagine the way you each deliver them is quite unique and delicious and emotionally intelligent, you know? And like, I see your kind of like, straightforward but with a loving sense of humor.

01:09:20:21 - 01:09:36:20

Luna

And you know, Joshua, I see this like, deep, thoughtful sensitivity that's like as fuck from where I'm sitting, you know? And then I reflect on mine because I'm like friendly, friendly, funny. And then when I hit a boundary sometimes, like, nope, that does not work, you know what I mean? So I'm seeing just like this, Grace, in your experience.

01:09:36:20 - 01:09:43:20

Luna

And I wonder if you have that, can you put that into words about your experience in it? Like, is there a playfulness there or just a certainty?

01:09:43:22 - 01:10:08:01

Joshua

I think it's tough for me because I've been a people pleaser for a long time. Libra and yeah, right. Boundary setting has actually been difficult for me. It's been very difficult for me because I don't want to say no. I've been worried about hurting people's feelings of not being enough for insert any of those worries. And with what I said now about, is this the life that I want to live?

01:10:08:03 - 01:10:27:15

Joshua

Right? I think the shoe drops for me after the cup is full of the nonsense. For example, one of the boundaries that I've worked on over the years is I will help you as long as you help yourself. But the minute you stop helping yourself, I'm done. I can't help you. Yes, right. And the closer you are to me, the harder it is for me to do that.

01:10:27:17 - 01:10:46:09

Joshua

And I'm just like a shame. Boundary setting is also something I'm continuously working on because I'm not where I want to be. But with the perspective that kept just shared of is that the life you want to live? If the answer's no, then how do we get there? Right in is having the hard talk. It's being uncomfortable so that I can shed that skin.

01:10:46:11 - 01:10:49:11

Joshua

So thank you, mom. I think, you know,

01:10:49:13 - 01:11:13:04

Cat

Yeah. I mean, when I'm working with other people about boundary setting, boundary setting is a necessary evil challenge, etc. if you're going to create relationships that you want to have when you're in a relationship, that isn't the way you want it to be, there's a good chance that there's some boundary issue, right? You're either not speaking your truth, you're not being heard.

01:11:13:04 - 01:11:29:02

Cat

You're letting the person get away with behavior that there's something everybody's need for boundary. Everybody's type of boundary is different. Like, what I need in my life is not what you need in your life in order to be okay and to be who you want to be, and to have the life you want to have, at least on the relationship front.

01:11:29:04 - 01:11:43:22

Cat

So some of boundary setting is about determining what does that need to be for you, and then what does it take a lot of it's just like propping up like, okay, like this is what it will look like. I know it's really scary. So this is how you're going to like and walking people through. How are you going to do it?

01:11:43:22 - 01:12:01:04

Cat

Are you going to have a conversation on the phone? Are you going to write like just even moment to moment? How do you set a boundary and then what to expect? So you'll set the boundary and then the person won't honor it. They'll keep pushing against it. Yeah. Because when you start to set boundaries, people don't want you to particularly if you've lived a certain kind of way.

01:12:01:09 - 01:12:20:20

Cat

Yeah. People who are in your life now who are used to you being however, they're not interested in you setting a boundary. So when you do for the first time, they'll be like, well, sure you don't. You know, they'll push up against it. And so then I it's what I called earlier, placing a boundary. If you set it and you mean it, then you have to police it.

01:12:20:20 - 01:12:25:20

Cat

It's like, no, no, no. Remember I set that boundary. I said that it's got to be like the I really meant it.

01:12:25:22 - 01:12:26:04

Joshua

Yeah.

01:12:26:09 - 01:12:44:07

Cat

And you do that enough times that either the person goes away or you get tired of it and then you move on. Your relationship life is like a spiral that goes up as you begin to set boundaries, as you begin to be able to usher out the people who are not interested in you, taking care of you, and begin to make room.

01:12:44:07 - 01:13:07:05

Cat

When taking something away. The universe makes room for something you don't currently have, which in this case is relationships with people who do want you to be your best self and do want to support your growth and your development in terms of what you need to feel good about who you are in your life. When you let other people go, there's room for those people to come in, and boundaries is the currency by which that happens.

01:13:07:06 - 01:13:30:10

Luna

Damn. That's beautiful. And also just really, really clearly reflecting to me my last year and my this year. And I was living the story of like, oh, I'm so I'm so good at enforcing my boundaries. I'm gonna be alone forever. But what's happened a few months and I had to have those spaces is my life is currently like filling up with brand new, really loving, supportive, wonderful, thoughtful people.

01:13:30:10 - 01:13:34:20

Luna

So I'm like, oh, and you're just like, are you just like, narrated my life to me?

01:13:34:22 - 01:13:38:07

Cat

But you have to be willing. You have to have the courage to let go first.

01:13:38:08 - 01:13:39:17

Joshua

Yes. Like.

01:13:39:19 - 01:13:54:17

Cat

You know, the universe can't bring you what there's no room to bring you. So you have to have the courage to let go. And so it sounds like that's exactly what you did. You did. And then you see the benefit of, oh, there are other people in the world who want to think of me differently and treat me differently and speak to me.

01:13:54:19 - 01:14:06:03

Luna

And that space in between can feel like insurmountable. I was like, am I ever going to friends again? Will anyone ever know me? Like, will anyone ever care? You know? And it's scary, you know, in those moments.

01:14:06:05 - 01:14:12:10

Cat

Here's another one of those phrases. When one door closes, another one opens. But the hallways are a bitch.

01:14:12:12 - 01:14:32:23

Luna

Oh, yes, very. That's. I've never heard the hallways part. That's beautiful. Fuck, yeah. Yeah. I would love to hear from you. If you can say in any realm of your sex related work, have you noticed trends in your industry over any amount of time, like whether it's as a club owner, as someone who facilitates growth? For people?

01:14:33:01 - 01:14:48:08

Joshua

Covid was a big turning point for people. I guess people saw the a mortality in life and they were like, what the fuck am I doing? Especially after being locked up for however long. Yeah, I was like, I need to take action in my life. There's been more actionable people.

01:14:48:10 - 01:15:10:12

Cat

Yeah, we saw a whole influx. We started doing events just as soon as we could after the most of Covid lifted. Yeah. And there was an influx of brand new people invariably when queried the response was yes, I have thought about this for years. But then Covid made me realize I wasn't doing anything about it, and I realized that that's not how I want my life to go anymore.

01:15:10:17 - 01:15:23:08

Cat

And so they found the events. They started showing up. They started asking questions, all brand new people because Covid made them have that reflection of life is short, maybe shorter than we thought it was going to be.

01:15:23:10 - 01:15:27:12

Luna

What are you most excited to explore in your work going forward?

01:15:27:14 - 01:15:45:15

Joshua

Kat asked me the other day, where do I see myself at the end of life? Or something along those lines? And for the first time I've ever been able to piece together, I said, I want to open a hospice center for the folks that want to do the work that we do. Right. And like that's where I want to be on the back end before I check out.

01:15:45:17 - 01:16:06:04

Joshua

I'm excited. I'm getting we have a huge opportunity to expand what we're doing here in New York City. Our alumni from our programs are growing our abilities to teach what we're teaching, how we're teaching is ever expanding and evolving. I think this is the first time in my life where I see the next step, where it's going to require financial investment, and I'm not afraid.

01:16:06:06 - 01:16:09:14

Cat

As long as one of us isn't afraid, both of us aren't afraid on the same day.

01:16:09:15 - 01:16:11:20

Joshua

We're we're good. We're good. Yeah.

01:16:11:21 - 01:16:18:23

Luna

That's the most compelling reason for partnership. I think anyone has illustrated to me a long time. Damn. Oh. Good one.

01:16:19:02 - 01:16:40:18

Joshua

It's hard to put into words. The relationship that we have, right, is beyond partners. Primary boyfriend girlfriend. Any of that, it's the support that she's given me, and I've given her to work through some really hard stuff. Like we met when her husband passed away from cancer, and it was like just the way the universe threw shit together.

01:16:40:20 - 01:16:55:00

Joshua

There's something bigger happening. I believe the opportunity we have to do with our work is to change the trajectory of humanity, to save it. If we can just move past everything that's been put in front of us, or at least start to move past it.

01:16:55:01 - 01:16:58:23

Luna

Or at least enjoy what we have of it while we're here on this planet.

01:16:59:01 - 01:17:03:08

Joshua

Yeah, yeah, it's all with intention. It's all with intention. Yeah.

01:17:03:13 - 01:17:23:09

Cat

In order to continue to be a sober person, I can't spend a lot of time in what's not here in terms of the future. I mean, we're planning. We're in as much as you have a business and you have to do those things to move forward. But where do I live? Internally? I'm having my best moments. When I'm in the moment, I'm in Sam, right?

01:17:23:11 - 01:17:33:00

Cat

When I start thinking about the future and spend too much time there, it doesn't go well for me. So I do best when I'm right here, right now.

01:17:33:06 - 01:17:35:02

Joshua

Fuck yeah, I agree.

01:17:35:04 - 01:17:46:18

Luna

Okay, so this is still a fantasy question, but we can ground it in the present. If you could wave a magic wand and teach everyone everywhere something about sex, what would it be?

01:17:46:19 - 01:18:01:12

Joshua

Communication, introspection and communication. The importance of it from everything I've seen, that is like the most important part to change anything is who am I really? Versus what is society expecting of me?

01:18:01:14 - 01:18:14:09

Cat

The only thing I can come up with this quick on this question is that it's okay. You know who you are, how you feel, what you want, what you think. All around the issue of sex is okay.

01:18:14:11 - 01:18:36:00

Joshua

There's a book by Doctor Susan K called M I normal if that book is game changing, because reading the book requires a person to reflect on questions that are in the book that reflect on our past. That book really helped me find a lot of language around the work that we're doing. If I if I could do anything, I'd have every person on the planet buy that book.

01:18:36:02 - 01:18:46:19

Luna

I love it, I can't, I can't wait to go read it, I will. I am a person that like, I read the books, people recommend me and then I, you know, inevitably they work their way into my mouth and spout out. So thank you for that.

01:18:46:22 - 01:18:47:15

Joshua

Yes, yes.

01:18:47:17 - 01:18:50:23

Luna

What are the best ways for people to interact with you?

01:18:51:01 - 01:19:13:15

Joshua

So we have our websites sdc.org which stands for sanctuary for Spiritual Development and Consciousness Expansion. We do a lot of personal development work through that business, a lot of journey work as well. Journey work being introspective and some of it is medicine based medicine being psychedelics or anything else that can safely get a person into a realm of presence.

01:19:13:17 - 01:19:31:12

Joshua

Yeah, kink collective dot net. That's K and K. Collective dot net is our group name where we have information on our websites and our education series, and on social media, kink collective as well. Kink collective NYC on Twitter, Facebook, set life Instagram.

01:19:31:14 - 01:19:53:16

Cat

I mean, for me, I always tell people the easiest thing to do is go to kink collective dot net and then there's right as you scroll down the first page, it says reach out to us. It goes to our email address, which is King Collective NYC at gmail. But if you can't remember that, just go to the website and then write me and say, I heard you on the podcast and whatever your question is, or whatever you want to know, just send us a message.

01:19:53:20 - 01:20:01:05

Joshua

We offer everyone a free 30 minute consultation. Just reach out and we use that time to determine how can we work with each other.

01:20:01:06 - 01:20:22:00

Luna

Gorgeous and links to everything is in the description below. Lovely listeners. Lastly, a fantasy brainstorm. If you had an unlimited budget to build a sexy playroom or house or castle or building, etc. whatever structure you like, it can be for yourself. It can be for your brand. It can include a hospice. What would it be like?

01:20:22:02 - 01:20:43:10

Joshua

So for me, it's a plot of property, right where we have different structures on the space where people come to us to work with us in person. The room, the sex room would be a barn or something large where we can do one on one play and we have the whole space to run the gamut. But we can also host events there and allow people to come and be immersed in it.

01:20:43:12 - 01:20:53:05

Joshua

I don't really care about the equipment in there. It'll have whatever we need, but it's more about the space so that the neighbors can't hear you scream. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah.

01:20:53:07 - 01:21:12:17

Cat

Yes. Yeah. That property is part of my bigger vision for what I see and what I want. And if money was no object, yeah, it would be big and beautiful. There'd be a main house. You could come and either do your own personal journey, we would be able to host all kinds of events, and they're all sexy. Everything's sexy when you're living your authentic life.

01:21:12:18 - 01:21:13:12

Joshua

Yeah.

01:21:13:14 - 01:21:21:21

Luna

Sexy retreat space. That's what I want I love it. Oh my gosh, Kat and Joshua, thank you so much for being a guest on Sexy Stories.

01:21:21:23 - 01:21:24:00

Joshua

Thank you so much. Has been such a good time.