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43 heterosexual Irish-American cis male, polyamorous, married with four kids.

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00:00:00:07 - 00:00:22:12

Luna

Our guest today is a 43 year old Irish American male. He is married with four kids, identifies as polyamorous, likes the idea of sex parties, and is into giving to partners, group sex and dreams of a lifestyle of free love amongst friends. He is newly ish, exploring, practicing, receiving deeply, and is currently finally figuring out who he is as a sexual being a professional musician for a decade and a half.

00:00:22:12 - 00:00:26:13

Luna

Originally from New York City. He is a paramedic in Texas. Welcome, Mickey.

00:00:26:15 - 00:00:28:10

Mickey

Hey. Nice to see you. How are you doing?

00:00:28:16 - 00:00:38:12

Luna

I'm awesome. And I'm so excited to hear. If you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame meter with ten being the most full of shame and one being not so shame you at all, where do you fall right now?

00:00:38:13 - 00:00:40:20

Mickey

Somewhere between 0 and 1.

00:00:40:22 - 00:00:42:03

Luna

Nice.

00:00:42:05 - 00:01:03:13

Mickey

Yeah, it's absolutely like you get to be in your 40s and this beautiful thing happens where all of the stuff you used to worry about when you were young and still forming your ideas and what you like and what you don't like, it all just falls away. And now it's like I've been through half my life. What am I going to spend the other half of it worrying what other people think about stuff that doesn't have anything to do with them.

00:01:03:15 - 00:01:11:00

Mickey

So I'm left with dutifully, mostly shame free existence now, and it's awesome. I can't recommend that enough to other people.

00:01:11:05 - 00:01:26:04

Luna

You'll be amazing, I promise. Okay, I was going to say. Do you have any practical tips for those of us who maybe are 33 and are like, no, I get it. No, I get it. I kind of I'm there sometimes, but like, is there like a tangible method you have or is it just like 40? And then you're like, I don't give a fuck.

00:01:26:06 - 00:01:42:07

Mickey

You know, I wish that there was like a recipe or something that I could tell you that would just make you do it. But it's just one of those things where you get tired of feeling a certain way, you know, because who you are and what you like and what you do with other people is never going to change.

00:01:42:12 - 00:02:00:16

Mickey

Eventually you realize that no matter what person X, Y, or Z over there to the right things, that thing that makes you you is never going to change. So why worry about that? Because it's not applicable. It doesn't matter. It just gets there. You just get there in time. I wish that there was some magic wand to wave, but there isn't.

00:02:00:18 - 00:02:07:09

Luna

I hope so. I hope so. Can you please tell us a little bit about what your sex life is like right now, and your favorite parts?

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:31:08

Mickey

Right now I have two teenage girls, and I have a three year old and a nine month old son. So you can imagine that so much of my time and that of my partner is like wrapped up with all of this caretaking, driving people to cheerleading, changing diapers. I mean, it's because they're so far in age, like there's like two completely separate sets of challenges and responsibilities happening simultaneously.

00:02:31:10 - 00:02:49:14

Mickey

So the fact that we have sex at all is sort of a minor miracle. Totally. We've gotten really, really, really good lately about carving that time out intentionally because of some of the complications of the last two pregnancies. We went through periods after each pregnancy where, like, we weren't able to have sex for like a while, like months at a time.

00:02:49:20 - 00:03:02:04

Mickey

But there's a healing in emotional healing and other stuff. And we in some ways were able to strengthen our relationship on other sides of it because we couldn't just rely on sex as a crutch.

00:03:02:06 - 00:03:04:13

Luna

Right. You don't have that built in intimacy.

00:03:04:15 - 00:03:27:17

Mickey

Yeah. We really we learned all these other sides of intimacy just connecting, holding hands, making time for each other. Even if it's five, seven, eight minutes at a time, just making it hers and mine and that's it. But now we're really getting back into the flow of being able to, like, not just have sex. Because, you know, when the babies were both pretty young, it was literally like, let's run into the bedroom right now, we have seven minutes.

00:03:27:17 - 00:03:46:15

Mickey

Let's just go. It's better than nothing. Let's get it done, you know? But now we we actually have time. They're going to take care. And the kids are in school, the older ones in the day. So now sometimes when we both have time off of work and we're both home alone, it's like we have all day, dude. We can like, yeah, let's bust out the let's get back to it.

00:03:46:15 - 00:03:50:21

Mickey

Right? So we're finally like getting that stride and it's been so much fun.

00:03:50:23 - 00:03:59:09

Luna

Oh my gosh, I am so glad to hear that. Okay. Can you give us your personal definition of sexy what is sexy to Nicki?

00:03:59:11 - 00:04:27:15

Mickey

The biggest things that I find sexy are confidence and curiosity. I think that those two things together let you explore a whole world of things, you know? And I'm also very visual. And I think it's just like the very like I think it's left brain, you know, the hardest brain, like, that's totally me. I love, like, visual data, you know, and also sound, you know, like, to me, the right music can make something so much better than it was with just, you know, Brumaire, you know, or whatever.

00:04:27:18 - 00:04:46:14

Mickey

I find myself obsessed all the time by, like, little visual things that maybe other people might not think about. Right? Like somebody else might be turned on by, like the actual sexual event happening in a porn video, for example. And to me it's like, wow, the way her underwear sits over her hips like there's just something so sexy about that.

00:04:46:14 - 00:05:08:09

Mickey

Or the way her hair curves over her neck, or the way that she looked at him right before, man. That stuff to me is so much more sexy necessarily than just mechanical penetration or whatever. It's like all that easy. Achieving those other levels of sexuality to me, are so much more like it makes it so much more of a coherent, a complete experience, you know?

00:05:08:11 - 00:05:24:09

Luna

Totally. Here's my question for you as a musician and someone who pays attention to visual detail. Is the visual setting of a porno important to you? And what about music? Because music is probably the number one thing that takes me out of especially a lot of amateur porn.

00:05:24:11 - 00:05:41:22

Mickey

Oh, sure, both of those things are so important. And on top of that as well. Context. If it's just person A and B, they're in the same room. So let's just get it done. I can't connect to that at all. There needs to be some sort of story or some sort of reason, like some sort of like established attraction, I don't know.

00:05:42:00 - 00:05:51:15

Mickey

That's why so much of what passes for pornography, it just doesn't do it for me. Yeah, yeah. And music, the minute that you put music on and it's not sexy, I'm like, okay, we're done with this one.

00:05:51:15 - 00:05:56:17

Luna

Move along. Okay, so that's my next question for you. What's the sexiest music according to Mickey?

00:05:56:19 - 00:06:21:20

Mickey

So I listen to all kinds of things, but we come back time and time again to trip hop stuff like Massive Attack and Tricky and Portishead. Those types of things, they're just sensual. The tempo is like a nice slow medium tempo that you can actually like, do things to. And with and feel like the music is flowing in and out while you're doing things, you know, and it just has that sexy beat, you know?

00:06:21:20 - 00:06:27:04

Mickey

And a lot of the voices are very breathy and sexy. So yeah, that's that's really been a go to for us time and again.

00:06:27:10 - 00:06:31:18

Luna

Amazing. And thank you for those recommendations. When do you feel sexy?

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:39:18

Mickey

I feel sexy when I know that there's true enthusiasm coming from the other side for me, you know?

00:06:39:20 - 00:06:42:01

Luna

Yes. Good answer. Yes.

00:06:42:02 - 00:07:11:09

Mickey

I didn't feel like sexy or attractive or, you know, even a very sexual being. When I was younger and straight through high school, I had like very bad self-confidence issues. And now knowing that someone is really invested physically, but also spiritually or emotionally or all three in the experience with me just puts me into it so easily. And if I feel like any one of those things is lacking, it takes me right out of it, you know?

00:07:11:09 - 00:07:27:18

Mickey

And then I'm worried about the other person, you know, like, are you doing this when you don't want to, or is there something telling me? And then I get so in my own head, it's it's over. It's just not going to happen, you know? So I feel sexy when someone is perceiving me as sexy. And the idea of what we're going to do together is sexy.

00:07:27:20 - 00:07:43:13

Luna

I love that, I love answers where the consent is built in, because that's for me too. That's my number one stopper is like, I'm not totally sure. Are we okay? Okay. Fuck yeah. Enthusiastic yeses are sexy. Now tell us what counts as sex for you.

00:07:43:15 - 00:08:03:15

Mickey

So to me, I don't know if this is going to be, like, too broad of a definition for most people, but to me, any exchange of energy back and forth, to me, that's basically sex, right? If that's where your brain is like, it doesn't have to be physical, it can be a conversation and you don't even have to be talking about sex or implying that you want to have sex.

00:08:03:15 - 00:08:25:23

Mickey

But if there's that's some current, it's sex adjacent, if not actual sex. And then even just to look like when you see someone across a room or a bar or something and that spark happens, that's not not sex, right. Like it's it's, you know, to me, it's close enough like, that fits into that thing where it's putting me in the mood or the mind for more physical manifestations of it.

00:08:26:01 - 00:08:35:22

Mickey

But the mental side is just as important, if not more so. So you have to acknowledge the mental side as being sexy, or it's like in the category of sex.

00:08:36:02 - 00:08:45:21

Luna

Yeah. And as a young person, did you ever have a grown up you trusted explain to you what sex was, or give a sex talk, or have a talk with you about what consent was?

00:08:45:23 - 00:09:05:17

Mickey

Oh my God, I got the mother of all consent slash sex slash. Like the mechanics of it. Talk like my mom. She was an R.N. for like 30 years before she retired. And I have a twin brother and I have another younger brothers, two years younger. Now there's six of us total, but back then there was only the three of us.

00:09:05:22 - 00:09:13:01

Mickey

She sat us all down in the living room one day, and there's like a cucumber on a cutting board and we're like, what the hell is going on here?

00:09:13:03 - 00:09:14:05

Luna

How old are you?

00:09:14:07 - 00:09:34:09

Mickey

Maybe 10 or 11. I mean, this was well before, I think that I was even really cognizant of sex beyond, like, just the purest of, like, you know, peripheral background. I'm aware that there's something that adults talk about that they get really squirrely and weird about sometimes. Right? But I don't know what it is. So she sat down and explained to us the entire thing, like, this is where babies come from.

00:09:34:14 - 00:09:50:03

Mickey

The penis goes in the vagina, like, but like all of this stuff. And then the cucumber, she had us put condoms on and then made sure that we did it correctly. A male leaving room for semen and like, you don't want it to break. And then if it breaks, this is what you do. And like we just went through all of that stuff.

00:09:50:03 - 00:10:10:06

Mickey

So the mechanics of it, we went through the entire thing and then she was like, well, now that you understand the concepts, this is what you need to have happen before this stuff can happen. And like then we had this huge consent talk like a maybe is not a yes, like a yes, but they seem uncomfortable. It's not a yes, you know.

00:10:10:06 - 00:10:34:00

Mickey

And she just went down the line and like just made it super clear you don't act unless someone acts like you don't make an advance unless you really think someone wants, you know, and it actually got to the point where that consent talk sort of scared me away from trying to engage in being a sexual being pretty much all through high school, because I was seeing my friends make these mistakes.

00:10:34:02 - 00:10:50:00

Mickey

I would see women get pressured into things that they didn't want to do. I was seeing friends of mine that were that were men, that were boys, that were making these mistakes, that were putting people in these uncomfortable positions. And then, like my female friends would come up to me after like, can I just that didn't go the way I wanted.

00:10:50:00 - 00:11:15:08

Mickey

And I'm like, I know, because you guys didn't talk about X, Y, and Z first. And, you know, so I was in this weird position where I was like, so cognizant of how it could work best, but not having the, like, mental ability to, to say, I can do this and follow these rules and not offend someone. And currently, I think that it was also my lack of self-confidence that almost used consent against myself as a weapon.

00:11:15:10 - 00:11:41:06

Luna

Okay, so I hear that so hard and I can compare it to anecdotally people I know in my life, and then the lovers or definitely people who didn't become lovers because their behavior was atrocious. People have maybe dated or gone out with or attempted. And I do see a pattern of all of society gets hurt when the ones that listen, like follow the rules and air quotes, for lack of a better phrase.

00:11:41:06 - 00:11:49:00

Luna

And then I know so many dudes that are that share something similar and I'm like, nah, we need you. Okay? So okay, you get it?

00:11:49:01 - 00:12:09:11

Mickey

I do, but I think that the competition is incomplete. I think that's why I think that you can set all these boundaries everybody talks about, like when you even have a good conversation about what not to do. It's so centered about what not to do, but so rarely does somebody then ask the follow up question like, okay, so I know what not to do now what do I do?

00:12:09:13 - 00:12:10:20

Luna

I sure do.

00:12:10:22 - 00:12:28:00

Mickey

Yeah. You talk to friends and like, like a woman, you know, like some of my friends, when we've had these conversations, I'm like, how do you want to be approached? Like, how would you get approached that you could walk away from saying, that's exactly how I want that to have happen. And it's not because I need that information now because I'm very comfortable now.

00:12:28:01 - 00:12:43:06

Mickey

Yeah. And being able to do that. But it's for the benefit of like friends of mine that are peripheral to this conversation that like, they don't know. Yes. And that's why you have all these men being like, oh, this is like, now I don't even know what to do. I don't even know how to talk to women. Like, dude, just don't be a jerk.

00:12:43:06 - 00:12:50:13

Mickey

Like, start with that and then ask, yeah, ask women, talk to women. That's like the biggest part. Men are doing.

00:12:50:13 - 00:13:11:14

Luna

But also there's another side to that conversation, which I've experienced in dating, which is why we have to talk about this stuff. Also, this goes really good into the next question, but it's I receive a lot dudes who don't want to take any responsibility, and they show up and they just want me to be their brand new teacher to the point where I've started to be like, hey, I do talk about sex for work.

00:13:11:14 - 00:13:28:03

Luna

Over the course of three and a half, almost four years, I have accumulated a lot of knowledge. I am not a free teacher in my personal sex life. Like, yes, communicate with me. But this is not a ask me questions and then you're done and you get the good boy check mark and you move on. And now you get to choke me without talking about it again.

00:13:28:03 - 00:13:44:00

Luna

That doesn't happen, you know? So it is it's complex. And I think it really is teaching that dialog. And I imagine that you have a lot to teach us based on what we know about you so far. And so on that same note, and in that same vein, what happens to your shame in music when it's time to talk about safer sex?

00:13:44:00 - 00:13:50:10

Luna

And can you give us your example of that conversation of like a what to do thing there in that situation?

00:13:50:12 - 00:14:18:14

Mickey

Absolutely. My shaming meter doesn't move at all. I think it's also helped me that I've had to talk to, like teenage children of mine about how to ask for these things, right? So, like, if I'm ashamed to try to set boundaries, how can I expect the children I'm trying to teach to stand up for themselves too, right? So to me, even in some of the experiences that we'll get into later that I've had outside of the traditional monogamous situation, we did a lot of research before we dug into that stuff.

00:14:18:14 - 00:14:57:13

Mickey

So I learned very quickly how best to have these conversations, and to me, it always boils down to like the most simple, direct, honest thing that you can ask for is the best, right? Like these are the things I like. These are the things I don't like. These things are negotiable. And then you leave no room for wiggle room because I find that like people that get burned on these like boundary and consent conversations, we're trying not to seem hard at, you know, like, okay, I could set the boundary, but then when someone challenges it in real time, when we're naked and, you know, the hip hop is on and the lights are so nice,

00:14:57:15 - 00:15:12:12

Mickey

oh, why don't I just let it happen this one time and then, you know, we can talk about it after. Nah, y'all already ruined it, man. Like, somebody that violated that once is going to not understand why they can't violate again. So it has to be firm and then you have to defend it. You know what I mean.

00:15:12:12 - 00:15:18:16

Mickey

That. And then if it's simple and honest, there's no way to misinterpret it without seeming really dumb.

00:15:18:18 - 00:15:48:17

Luna

Well, I totally know what you mean. And I'm really good at establishing, affirming, reaffirming, enforcing my boundaries. And I think recently I was like, wait a second, I seem to explode people sometimes when I do that. And so that's the part. For so many years I've been like, understand what's happening? And now I'm noticing the pattern is boundary related, you know, and also to circle back to what you were saying earlier about, we need not just the what not to do, but also the what to do.

00:15:48:17 - 00:16:05:11

Luna

I've also had conversations with people here or out in the world where the similar like, what do you do for safer sex? How do you do this? And they tell me what they do and then they want to engage with me personally. And it's so interesting sometimes how what they tell me does not mirror my actual experience with them.

00:16:05:13 - 00:16:22:00

Luna

So it's sometimes it's like people think that because they're like, oh yeah, I'm the type of person that has safer sex conversations. Do you want to hook up? And then I'm like, okay, but where's our conversation? Oh, you want me to start it? You want me to be the teacher, you know? So it's like all of that do feel comfy telling us when you started talking to your kids about safer sex stuff for sex in general?

00:16:22:01 - 00:16:51:16

Mickey

Yeah, sure. So, you know, I thought that my mom really had the right idea, so I just thought that she frontloaded it all at once, you know what I mean? Like, that was a heavy conversation and had a lot of moving parts for a 10 or 11 year old. Yeah. So instead, what my current partner and I in particular have done because she's a social worker, so she really gave me a lot of like verbal tools to talk about, like serious, important, complex things with children whose brains are still forming.

00:16:51:16 - 00:17:09:20

Mickey

Right. And I think I hadn't met her and hadn't had that. I might not have done as good of a job. But we instilled things gradually, starting at a certain level and then adding to the complexity as they became more able to understand certain things. The internet has complicated that to a certain extent, because kids are going to find stuff out.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:13:05

Mickey

If you don't talk to them to find it out, it's not going to be where you want it to come.

00:17:13:05 - 00:17:14:09

Luna

Yes.

00:17:14:11 - 00:17:32:11

Mickey

So we got ahead of it. And, you know, we talked to them early and really just focused on like, this is your body, this is yours. No one can do whatever they want to it. This is like, you know, your sacrosanct thing. You control the ins, the outs. Like whatever happens, we started with that. Like, this is yours.

00:17:32:16 - 00:17:47:18

Mickey

You don't have to hug a relative if you don't want it. You don't have to shake anybody's hand. You don't have to do anything you don't want to. If you're not comfortable, don't do it. It will back you up. We just started with that. And then as they got a little older, you build on those concepts. And now my oldest daughter's 15.

00:17:47:18 - 00:18:05:08

Mickey

So like we've had the full 100% physical, emotional, mental, spiritual like these are all the things that you should get out of an experience like this. This is what you should ask for. This is what you should prevent. This is what you should protect yourself from. Don't let anyone tell you different. So now my 15 year old, I don't worry about her at all.

00:18:05:10 - 00:18:06:08

Luna

Beautiful.

00:18:06:10 - 00:18:21:21

Mickey

She identifies as queer. The other the other reason I don't worry about her at all right now is because she's so awkward. I can't stand it. I just want to shake her and be like, we don't have to be so scared. Like nothing is going to happen that's going to hurt you, right? Like you're you're okay. You know, you're smart, you're funny, you're beautiful.

00:18:21:21 - 00:18:46:03

Mickey

Like, just go out there and be yourself, you know? But she's just not there. My middle daughter is autistic and that required a little more fine tuning of the process because she's 13 now. Developmentally, she's more like 9 or 10. Okay. So we're still having to like softball that talk about it in broad strokes, reaffirm it constantly. That's been working well too.

00:18:46:05 - 00:18:53:00

Mickey

Yeah. And then I have a long time and I'll have to worry about it with my sons. Where's the almost a decade away from that thing?

00:18:53:02 - 00:19:05:03

Luna

Could you concretely give us a little example of how you would ideally have a safer sex conversation unfold, let's say maybe if it was you and your partner looking to play with other partners or something, however, what would come up for you?

00:19:05:05 - 00:19:37:01

Mickey

Okay, so ideally before I think that like the people that try to have those conversations in the moment before the actual sex starts, you're already too late. That's not the proper time, right? Especially if you've had a few drinks beforehand or whatever the case is. Smoking weed, whatever. While I do like the idea of spontaneity, if it's the first time that you're going to be playing with someone, or you think that it's possible, it's so much better to just get out in front of it and be like, hey, yes, we're noticing some attraction here, you know?

00:19:37:01 - 00:19:57:16

Mickey

I know that you guys are coming over for dinner. Like in the event that something was to happen. Generally speaking, this is what we like, what we don't like, what's off the table completely, you know, and then the x, Y and Z could be negotiated. Where are you guys? And then even if they're like, well, we don't want to have sex with you at all, then we're like, oh, okay, cool.

00:19:57:16 - 00:20:05:13

Mickey

So sorry, but at least if you did, we avoided awkwardness. It's got to be direct. It's got to be beforehand. It's got to be sober.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:16:18

Luna

Oh, yes. Love that. Utter clarity. Love it. Okay, now take us through your formative sexual timeline, starting with your early years.

00:20:16:20 - 00:20:40:06

Mickey

I have two very, very, very distinct memories. And they happened pretty soon after each other. Like and it was like going from being a kid that had no idea to all of a sudden, you know, like realizing that that I was having sexual feelings. And the first was my mom had this book, I think it was some sort of like self-help book or something philosophical or whatever it was called, chop wood, carry water.

00:20:40:07 - 00:21:00:15

Mickey

I'll never forget it. And I remember I thought the title was weird and like, what is my mom reading? And I was in a room one day to get something, and I started flipping through the pages of this book, and there were illustrations of a man and a woman having sex. And I think, if I remember correctly, I had reread the book later on and it was like about how you could approach, like, sex consensually and whatever.

00:21:00:15 - 00:21:31:20

Mickey

As adults. I think that that's what they were doing in that book. But for me, I saw the pictures and I'm like, what is this? What are these people doing? You know? And then I remember that shortly after that, I got a cassette player, and one of the first cassettes that I got was Whitney Houston's first album. And I distinctly remember that she was the first human that I was ever physically attracted to, and I pictured myself doing those things from the book, even though I didn't know what they were with Whitney Houston in that, like teased out 80s.

00:21:31:20 - 00:21:33:06

Luna

The. Yeah oh yeah yeah.

00:21:33:06 - 00:21:52:01

Mickey

Don't Jupiter things like I still find some of that stuff kind of sexy that in fact because it was formative for me. Right. And then shortly after that, my mom and my stepfather rented Basic Instinct, and they had no idea what it was. So now this is like a little bit later, the chap would carry water. Whitney Houston thing was probably like 89.

00:21:52:03 - 00:22:20:09

Mickey

So about 1991 ish. I'm a little bit older. My parents read Basic Instinct and they realized that, oh wow, this movie is way sexier than we thought. So they were telling us to like, look away during the sex scenes. But we had a bookshelf that had glass fronting to it, but I could see the entire thing. And man, like the Sharon Stone scene with the skirt and like, you know, freaking out on the police officers was one thing.

00:22:20:11 - 00:22:40:07

Mickey

But then the scene where Michael Douglas and Janine Tripplehorn have their sex scene and he's like, totally dominant, pushes her over the couch, grabs her hair, rips her skirt that seemed so. I had a like a like a formative idea of what sex was, but that seemed so like animal and primal and interesting. And I just had no idea that that was like that, you know?

00:22:40:07 - 00:22:56:19

Mickey

And I guess I sort of pictured it very like we do this mechanical thing in the dark and babies happen. Right? And then this felt like, well, no, they look like they're having fun. I want to know more about that. And that's right around when I saw my first porn movie, and then I started exploring, talking to other people.

00:22:57:00 - 00:23:08:15

Mickey

So the basic instinct was sort of like a jump off point of like, no, no, this isn't just like a mechanical baby making thing. This is part of your life. It's like a culture lifestyle, like fun event, you know?

00:23:08:17 - 00:23:25:01

Luna

Wow. Okay. So when did that lead to you figuring out the physical feelings of it, either with yourself or others? And like, did sex ed in school happen? I know you'd gotten a very thorough talk, but like, what was your friend group like? Like what was the social climate sphere vibe like for you?

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:49:05

Mickey

Sure, sure. So sex ed in my school, I graduated high school in 1996. So you could imagine that prior to that, like 92 to 96, sex ed was not comprehensive. They split us up. I mean, I've heard the story a lot from other guests on your podcast where like, this is a common thing. I don't know why, but they think that girls need to learn these specific things and boys need to learn these specific things.

00:23:49:05 - 00:24:12:06

Mickey

And they wonder why men don't understand how menstruation works, though, right? Or, you know, so they did that to us. We didn't understand much. I learned so much more from my friend because I had a couple of friends, even in early high school, that were very sexually active. They were very comfortable with it. I mean, even to the point where, like sexual things would happen at parties or whatever.

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:34:15

Mickey

And one friend of mine in particular, and his girlfriend had no problem having sex in front of all of us, which now I understand, like, oh my God, violated so many boundaries and consent. But at the time it was almost like, oh, now I'm seeing in real time like how this works. Yeah. You know, I was intrigued by it in a way, you know, and now I think that it's lent itself possibly to some voyeuristic tendencies that have gone on later in life.

00:24:34:17 - 00:24:35:09

Mickey

You know what I mean?

00:24:35:11 - 00:24:49:13

Luna

I do well, and it's complicated because the more I talk to humans, the more I'm like, consent is very important. A lot of people like stuff that's actually rape, kind of rape, actually. Rape. Okay. Well, we have some issues here.

00:24:49:15 - 00:25:10:01

Mickey

Right? So the culture in that time, I also have to mention I didn't know anything about, like, queer people at all. No, I it was present in my school, and I found out later on that friends that I've had for years were gay and were dating each other, and I have no idea because they had to hide it for like, physical safety.

00:25:10:03 - 00:25:19:17

Mickey

There was one out lesbian couple that I remember them. They would walk along the commons of my high school holding hands, and dudes would throw rocks at Holy shit.

00:25:19:17 - 00:25:22:16

Luna

So this is in New York City. Growing up to like the biggest.

00:25:22:22 - 00:25:41:17

Mickey

Like, yeah, I went to high school like a little bit north of New York City. Okay. But even still, like, this was still we were an hour away, right? Like we were, you know. Yeah. This wasn't the cornfields of Iowa, right? Like you would think that there would be a little bit more like cosmopolitan vibe to like, the northeast, but not like.

00:25:41:19 - 00:26:02:10

Mickey

Yeah, these girls, like, risked physical harm just to be like, nah, we like each other and we're going to hold hands like, fuck you. And at the time, I was like, what are these girls doing? Like, it didn't bother me per se. Like, I never really felt any, like, hatred or ignorance towards it. I just didn't understand why they would risk themselves like that.

00:26:02:13 - 00:26:25:01

Mickey

And you know, now I totally understand. But back then I was like, I just don't I don't get these kids at all. Yeah. So yeah, like my introduction to sex is like an active participant or even as someone who was like around it in my life with my friends was still very controlled, very had very mono, very just, you know, almost like it was almost informed by this like 50s Norman Rockwell vibe.

00:26:25:03 - 00:26:40:16

Luna

Well, it is it was it literally was because a lot of the movie and media that we've grown up with over the past several decades, like literally started with that and it's grown off of that. And we didn't have examples of queer people. We still lack a lot of examples of queer people, which is what I hope to help change.

00:26:40:16 - 00:27:00:03

Luna

But like, we didn't have access to knowing about other people's experience if it was different than ours necessarily. So I totally get that. Wow. You mentioned that getting that talk from your mom, like there was kind of this I'm gonna put words in your mouth. Was it fear? What did it feel like that kind of like, okay, I have to get this right.

00:27:00:03 - 00:27:06:17

Luna

I have to not be boundary crossing. Like, when did you start touching yourself and other people?

00:27:06:19 - 00:27:28:17

Mickey

So touching my stuff happened way earlier. And as a matter of fact, I think it almost became a crutch so that I didn't have to try to put myself in a situation where I had to ask if I could touch someone else. You know, once I figured, oh, I can contain this to myself. That was part of what kept me insular, I think, all through high school and like, avoided the risk.

00:27:28:23 - 00:27:45:02

Mickey

I remember that the first time. I think I really tried it. A couple of my friends that actually slept over my house. So we had a basement, which is where my mom would stick all of us boys. We had a big TV down there and we were watching TV, and all my friends were there, and we were all sleeping on the floor, and this big pile of blankets and pillows and all this thing, right?

00:27:45:04 - 00:28:04:10

Mickey

And I remember everybody fell asleep and I couldn't sleep. And we had learned that with these old TVs and the early cable boxes, if you set the cable box to the porn channel, and then you turned the channel dial on the television itself to like 2 or 1 or whatever, you could get like a broken up scramble. Porn scramble.

00:28:04:12 - 00:28:24:11

Mickey

Yeah, yeah, like of the porn. And so I had done that and I felt this urge to try to touch myself. And so I was already playing drums by that point. And this is a thing that's been like a thing for me my whole life. When you play drums, your hands get colicky and rough, and I had tried touching myself with my hands.

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:41:08

Mickey

I'm like, this doesn't feel good at all. This feels like fucking sandpaper. And yeah, so why do like, how does anybody like this? And it didn't occur to me because I'm a kid like, oh, well, it's because your hands are all torn up. Dude, I had a pillow that was super soft, so I just, like, folded it up and used that.

00:28:41:08 - 00:28:45:00

Mickey

And I was like, oh, that, that's that. That's the thing that feels good. Okay, cool.

00:28:45:04 - 00:28:49:04

Luna

Like a whole big pillow. Are you folding it around or was it like a fold.

00:28:49:04 - 00:28:55:16

Mickey

It so it's in half and then there's like a space in between. So the soft and soft on top, it's almost like digital.

00:28:55:18 - 00:28:56:21

Luna

How do you hold it.

00:28:56:23 - 00:29:01:12

Mickey

Push it down and put another pillow on top of it or whatever. Right. Like you figure out ways to do it. Right.

00:29:01:16 - 00:29:02:22

Luna

And then when you came.

00:29:03:00 - 00:29:19:17

Mickey

What's no no nothing. Not that I was trying to be quiet. It was all my friends going to wake up. And then I was too, like, so I just tried it to see it would feel cool. But then once I realized that it felt good later on when I was by myself, then I would, you know, I would use it that way, and then you just, like, pull out and ejaculate into something so you don't make a mess, right?

00:29:19:17 - 00:29:20:21

Mickey

Like you learn all that.

00:29:20:23 - 00:29:25:15

Luna

Well, not everyone does. I've interviewed enough people to know.

00:29:25:17 - 00:29:33:08

Mickey

So yeah, I started that way. And, that's basically still the way that I have to do it, because my hands aren't any softer. Really, you know?

00:29:33:10 - 00:29:38:19

Luna

Wow. Okay, so, wait, did you ever talk about it with your brother or your twin?

00:29:38:21 - 00:30:02:04

Mickey

No, no, I mean, that's the funny thing about that time period, too, is that, like, you had friends and you would talk about sex with your friends in very specific, limited ways. Okay. You know, and with the boys that I was friends with at the time, there was almost a competitive element to it that I heard, you know, like all the toxic masculine shit that like, we're still trying to get rid of today.

00:30:02:04 - 00:30:16:10

Mickey

We were living it hard rock that, yeah, occasionally sex would come up with my friends that were girls, and that felt like a minefield to make. So I'm like, I don't want to say anything that's going to make you feel weird or whatever. So I would almost bow out of those conversations. You know, they probably thought that I was like, super prude.

00:30:16:12 - 00:30:46:02

Mickey

It was just like, no, I don't want to hurt you or make you feel uncomfortable or whatever. But with my family, with my brothers, outside of that one talk that I had with my mom, we just didn't discuss it, okay. And then like, it didn't, it was never a thing that we talked about ever until like the first time that my mom caught me having sex with my first, like, real girlfriend in the house, and then it was like, okay, to further our boundary conversation, like, if you're going to do this, maybe the leather couch in the living room is not the best.

00:30:46:04 - 00:30:47:06

Mickey

And then you.

00:30:47:08 - 00:30:59:14

Luna

You make me put a blanket down. Wait. Okay, so fill in the gaps for us. How did we go? From now? We're touching ourselves. And there were partners yet to like. Now we're going to go new boundaries. Composite. Was that your first partner experience or do we have some things in between?

00:30:59:16 - 00:31:21:03

Mickey

Yep. So actually so many of my firsts all happened with the same person right? Shortly after high school. I went to college very briefly. I was there for a semester. I really liked this girl. We started talking. I thought she was going to be my first girlfriend. And then she got toxic shock syndrome from a tampon. Went to the hospital, almost died, and then missed the rest of the semester.

00:31:21:05 - 00:31:46:07

Mickey

So I know that was like, the most horrible thing that could have happened to this girl. Yeah, so she was gone. And then I quit college to pursue the music career full time. When I went back home, I met a girl from the town over through a new bandmate who went to high school next town over. So he brought this whole new group of friends with a whole new group of girls, and I hit it off with this girl who had the same name as the girl that I liked in college.

00:31:46:09 - 00:32:06:07

Mickey

Well, I know the weirdest thing, but then, you know, I met this girl. We really hit it off. We started dating and actually, like, the first, like, enthusiastic. Yes, that I ever got was interesting the way it happened with this girl. We had been dating for a little while. We experimented with like, little foreplay type things, but I never had an orgasm.

00:32:06:07 - 00:32:28:16

Mickey

She did a couple times, but I never did. And finally I wanted to address what could happen in the event that, like, we both felt right. Right. So I said to her, basically, like, I'm ready to lose my virginity to you. It doesn't have to be. Now, this is like just me communicating to you that I am interested in having this experience with you for the first time.

00:32:28:18 - 00:32:51:00

Mickey

And because she came from an environment where there wasn't the consent to it and had been a victim of abuse early on, she took that as a me trying to push having sex with her. And she's like, I'm not ready to have sex with you. Like back off. And I'm like, no, no, that's okay. That's totally okay. I'm just telling you that when you're ready, you can come to me and not be afraid whether I want to or not.

00:32:51:02 - 00:33:09:20

Mickey

And she was like, done that, like, wait, this is happening the correct way. Oh my God, that's weird. So eventually, I guess a couple weeks later, she did come to me and she's like, I think I'm ready to. So we tried a couple times and we had a little trouble actually getting it done. She was a very small girl.

00:33:09:20 - 00:33:31:03

Mickey

We had no idea about lubrication, like none of the stuff that I know now. So there was a few aborted attempts. But then, her pants went away and I came over to her parents bed. But I it was thinking it was comfortable, man. Like, you know, it's the most comfortable bed in the house. There were check ins, like, more than once through this thing.

00:33:31:03 - 00:33:57:17

Mickey

And then, like, loving it was eye contact. That was kind. It was music. It was just a beautiful way to have that first experience. And even years later, we're still friends and we still could acknowledge, like, yeah, our first time was awesome because like, every single thing happened the way it was supposed to, and that first enthusiastic yes, set the tone for every single thing that happened after it took so much of the fear and anxiety out of it for both of us.

00:33:57:19 - 00:33:59:09

Mickey

We just knew where we stood.

00:33:59:11 - 00:34:19:12

Luna

Amazing. So tell us a little bit, please, about what you learned about yourself and your desire and your likes in that time. You know, in that kind of like time period can be specific physical details or kind of like your whatever came next on your formative timeline. But I want to hear a little bit about your physical experience of sex worked in there?

00:34:19:14 - 00:34:39:02

Mickey

Sure. So interestingly enough, this all set the tone for some issues that I've had up till now that I'm starting to undo. Is that because of that confluence of events that happened where, like, my mom gave me this big consent talk and then like my first girlfriend had had some bad things happen to her when she was younger.

00:34:39:02 - 00:34:56:14

Mickey

And I was very cognizant of those and didn't want to trigger her, or like before I even knew what trauma was. I was like helping my first girlfriend deal with it and had to like, sort of have it inform my sex life, right? Like there were things that were just triggering or scary or didn't happen much or whatever.

00:34:56:16 - 00:35:18:00

Mickey

So what I found to end up being the safest course was to completely let my first partner set the tone, ask for what she wanted, and then just serve those needs. So what ended up happening was like, I almost became what I jokingly call now, like like a sexual butler, right? Like I didn't impose my desires or beliefs, whatever.

00:35:18:01 - 00:35:29:08

Mickey

Like nascent ones that I had at the time I sublimated them. I just like, I'm like, this is not as important, but what does this person want? And then that became my whole focus for decades.

00:35:29:09 - 00:35:30:15

Luna

Wow.

00:35:30:17 - 00:35:50:15

Mickey

Yeah. So yeah, like I'm only getting to the point now where as a 40 something year old guy, I'm like realizing like, it's okay to want stuff further. It's okay to ask for stuff, but back then no. Right. And then even to the point where, like, having oral sex performed on me, I knew that that was something where she'd had a bad experience.

00:35:50:18 - 00:36:07:06

Mickey

I just never asked for it. And then if it did happen, I felt guilty. Like if she making herself do this and then, like, I lived in my head every single time it was happening. So it was not fun. So I just like, we just shied away from it for, you know, to a certain extent. And then that sort of stayed with me.

00:36:07:09 - 00:36:27:10

Mickey

I'm still getting over feeling guilty as it's happening, or if someone is actively pleasuring me and I'm not doing something back, I still sometimes this is not okay, man. Like, what are you doing? Like, you're so selfish, bro. Like that stupid voice in your head. Yeah, you know I do. So my sex life was very centered around. I have to please my partner.

00:36:27:10 - 00:36:41:13

Mickey

I have to please my partner. And then, like, you know, all my female friends are like, oh, this guy's never gone down on me and my wife, you know, or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not going to be that guy. So like, now I'm like, you know, I'm the giving oral guy, right? Like, I'm going to learn everything I can about this and I'm just going to do this.

00:36:41:13 - 00:37:08:06

Mickey

And so yeah, I turned into this like full service, like, you know, sexual provider. And I'd never let it be a two way street. I didn't even realize it. I thought that what I was doing was like, I'm actually like the superior guy. I'm the superior man. Like, I'm not the guy that's like, you know, pushing for things to to be done to me or like doing things and then ghosting you or whatever.

00:37:08:06 - 00:37:27:18

Mickey

Like I wanted so bad to not be like the the user, the selfish guy, the whatever. And some of that was informed by like, my dad and the way he treated my mom early on and like probably the genesis of that early consent talk. Right. Like, you know, and my dad cheated on my mom and I'm like, I'm not going to be that fucking guy either, right?

00:37:27:18 - 00:37:40:18

Mickey

So like, I tried to leave on this like super straight and narrow path where I never hurt anybody, never took something that wasn't mine. And then it just like it kept me from taking anything for myself at all.

00:37:40:19 - 00:38:00:23

Luna

Wow. I do, and I'm sure there's so many people who can relate to that. I know my version is I didn't want to be the dead fish girl that people fucked. Like I remember people talking about fucking a dead fish and I didn't wanna be that. So now I, you know, now it's really helpful if I get tied down to make me stop moving, because now I've created this pattern and I can relate to so much of that.

00:38:00:23 - 00:38:18:23

Luna

And I hear so much of like, I will be this way as a reaction to this thing I don't want. Rather than prioritizing the desire, which I imagine you don't sound like a boundary crosser, a person that wants to be, you know, like it's. But but just when we focus on our desires, that's still something that I'm working on too.

00:38:18:23 - 00:38:30:14

Luna

It's like coming forward with that and being with, yes, I want. Okay, so it sounds like there's a big shift in progress between there and now. What's what's happened, what's happened.

00:38:30:14 - 00:38:51:01

Mickey

I will tell you exactly what happened. So I dated the first girl that I ever dated off and on for about ten years, I think, because, like, I got so good at managing her trauma things and she got good at managing myself down and whatever, we stayed together way too long because the alternative was scary, like, oh, risk all this stuff again.

00:38:51:01 - 00:39:09:13

Mickey

Even though we knew that this probably shouldn't have been a forever thing, we did something together a little too long, but there was still love and good feeling and all this other stuff, so it just became easy to stay, hard to go. Eventually we did break up. I moved to Texas to join a band and now I'm in my like early 20s.

00:39:09:15 - 00:39:29:12

Mickey

It's like post 911, like we're we're past that point. And I got to this band in Texas and it was a popular band, and all of a sudden I'm playing for big crowds. I'm opening for huge metal bands like Slayer and all these huge bands and like, yeah, I went from being like a kid who plays drums to a drummer in a band and like, people knew who I was.

00:39:29:12 - 00:39:50:21

Mickey

And like, there was like a fame element to it, almost on a, on a, on some level. And then all of a sudden, like, I started getting all these overt, like, you're in this band and I want to do things to you because you're in this band. And I went from being the guy who was scared of everything and worried about, like, I don't want to, you know, violate your boundaries and I don't want or whatever.

00:39:51:02 - 00:40:12:07

Mickey

All of a sudden I was like the bully that someone handed a loaded gun to. And I'm like, oh, wait, I'm cute. And people want to have sex with me. I'm going to have sex with everyone. I turned into a fucking monster for like 3 or 4 years, and I turned into the guy who was like, juggling five girls, lying to all of them, you know, taking what I wanted.

00:40:12:07 - 00:40:33:18

Mickey

Like being, like, dishonest and almost borderline cruel with the way I ended things or whatever, because now I was like, we like, I am a commodity and I can act like I'm a commodity. So I went from like, being over balanced on one side to over balancing and overcorrecting completely and turned into like this worthless fuckboy for like four years.

00:40:33:20 - 00:40:53:16

Mickey

So then, yeah, and then I had to, like, bring it back down to earth somehow. And what ended up happening was right around when I turned 29, I got married for the first time because I got a girl pregnant, and that's the only reason we stayed together. So my first marriage was a disaster, but I had my first two children with her.

00:40:53:16 - 00:41:15:15

Mickey

My girls and I had these little girls, and I had to, like, just reinvent myself from the ground up. I was like, basically like a full blown alcoholic. I was doing cocaine and all these other things on the road. I crashed a car high on cocaine once, walked away from that entirely unscathed, and that was sort of like a, for lack of a better phrase, like my come to Jesus moment.

00:41:15:15 - 00:41:40:09

Mickey

Like, not in fucking motley crew, bro. Like, you have to stop living like this. You have people that are you're responsible for that, but you're a child. I'm like, I went from being probably more of an adult when I was in 11th grade to like 1920 or so to being an absolute moron. I developmentally regressed almost, you know, and then I had, like, learn how to be an adult again.

00:41:40:09 - 00:42:00:02

Mickey

I quit smoking, I cut way back on drinking, quit drugs, got a real job, you know, like all that stuff. And so but then I almost had to like, reexamine also like, okay, just the way you've been treating the women in your life is gross. Like, you've always known that deep down you had that power, you had the taste of control.

00:42:00:07 - 00:42:17:22

Mickey

You weren't afraid for a little while, but really, you've been afraid this whole time now of you, you know? And like, I didn't have really, like, an external conversation with anyone. There was no therapist at the time. There was no whatever. It was really just more self-reflection. Like almost dying in that car wreck made me examine everything from the ground up.

00:42:18:00 - 00:42:33:03

Mickey

So then I had to, like, relearn again, like how to treat people with respect and how to be like a good person. You know, I just, I it was Jekyll and Hyde and I had to relearn Jekyll like all over again. So it's been a process, like I'm still, you know, I don't think I'll ever have it 100% right.

00:42:33:03 - 00:42:57:17

Mickey

But I think I'm much better off now than I was. But like, meeting the partner I have now really solidified a lot of stuff for me because she's so emotionally mature and expected that from me, you know, and saw the potential in it for me too. So like, you know, I really she gave me this space like she never like there was never any like, ultimatums or like, you have to be this certain way or I'm not going to date you or whatever.

00:42:57:19 - 00:43:21:17

Mickey

Like, we both found each other post first. Divorce and like, commiserated from that. And it was like a long distance thing. She was in California and I was in the East Coast, and we met on Facebook in a random Facebook group, and it was just more like, oh, you're going through this terrible thing to let's commiserate, to talking every day, to FaceTiming every day to like she flew out to hang out with me and like, we we hit it off physically and mentally.

00:43:21:18 - 00:43:38:00

Mickey

Whatever. So she moved in with me. She moved to the East Coast, moved in with me and then never pushed. She just knew like, yeah, we're both kind of broken, like, let's heal together. And there was never like, you have to be this way or not. And we had spent all this time talking before we ever got physical.

00:43:38:00 - 00:43:56:11

Mickey

So we had a deep connection before the first time we ever even had sex. Wow. Right. Yeah, it was really cool. Like. And we'd even talked about things we like, don't like, mistakes we made, like, you know, whatever. So the first time that we had sex, when she flew to the East Coast to hang out with me, it was like we'd been together for months.

00:43:56:13 - 00:44:08:06

Luna

Okay, so that seems like a perfect time to tell us what you like. Like specifically what you like, what you're discovering you want more of and what you like to give, what you actually like to give.

00:44:08:08 - 00:44:25:01

Mickey

So I mean, as far as, like what I like, I'm still learning, I really am. I it's only been like literally in the last 2 or 3 months that I started working with a new therapist who's poly friendly. She's a certified sex coach, but she's also a psychiatrist.

00:44:25:01 - 00:44:26:04

Luna

Like, amazing.

00:44:26:06 - 00:44:45:16

Mickey

Like a polymath. She's just brilliant and, like, knows how to talk to me too. And what my favorite thing about her is that she has like, this ability to cut through, like my very Irish ability to bullshit myself and others, you know, just by talking, you know, she's like, no, no, no, the thing you're saying is dumb and you should stop.

00:44:45:18 - 00:44:53:01

Mickey

This is what it sounds like you're afraid of. And here's why. And I'm just like, I feel like every time I talk to this woman, it feels like she hit me with a bat at one point or another. Hey, you know.

00:44:53:01 - 00:44:53:23

Luna

I.

00:44:54:01 - 00:45:11:10

Mickey

Revelation, but she's the one that really got me to see. Like, you have never prioritized yourself. Like, why? What are you afraid of? What do you want? If you don't know, go figure it out. And my partner has been so awesome, like, as I've been bringing this up, but. Oh no. So she's like, let's try stuff and figure it out, you know?

00:45:11:12 - 00:45:32:05

Mickey

So I wish that I could honestly answer that question better. But what I will say is, I like the idea of prioritizing myself and like figuring out the things that I like or don't like. I'm not there yet because I'm still guilt. I'm still dealing with the feelings of selfishness if something is being performed on me or whatever.

00:45:32:07 - 00:45:55:09

Mickey

But there are some things that I do know that I like, but I've come to these conclusions, like working through the stuff, and also with the attempts that we've made at polyamory, because my partner tried that a couple times. I do realize now that I whether or not I'm in a polyamorous marriage, I am polyamorous. I feel that I guess it's like a bisexual person that's with one gender or another.

00:45:55:09 - 00:46:06:20

Mickey

It doesn't like nullify your bisexual ness. It's just who you happen to be partnered with at the time. Whether or not we are doing polyamorous things, I know that I'm capable of giving and receiving love to more than one person.

00:46:06:21 - 00:46:10:05

Luna

Yeah, how do you know that? And when did you learn that for yourself?

00:46:10:07 - 00:46:19:12

Mickey

I've always felt that way, and I always felt like something that was deviant when I was younger, I was like, these feelings that I.

00:46:19:12 - 00:46:20:15

Luna

Have totally.

00:46:20:16 - 00:46:34:14

Mickey

Don't make sense. Like, how could you feel this way when this person is so good to you? It's because, like, it's socialized. Yeah, absolutely. And further, like every single bit of media there is about love. Yeah. So there's one very specific way to.

00:46:34:14 - 00:46:35:16

Luna

Do it in America.

00:46:35:22 - 00:46:40:16

Mickey

In America. Very true, very true. But that's where I happen to be. So that's yeah.

00:46:40:17 - 00:46:46:17

Luna

Socialized, right? Yeah. I'm so bored of the jealousy love triangle narratives. I'm like, just make it a threesome, you idiot.

00:46:46:19 - 00:47:05:12

Mickey

Just be poly, bro. I want to have that on a T-shirt. Right? You know, in the attempts that we made, I did meet people that were very cool. And I'm like, you know, oh, this is okay. I can do this. We can't do this right now for various reasons that we're trying to work through, but it's okay that I want to.

00:47:05:14 - 00:47:24:16

Mickey

That really was the first step was realizing like, this is a wrong. It's just hard. Yes. It's really hard to do. And society makes it harder. Right. But even beyond that, just like taking in multiple people's like feelings and wants and desires into account, that's a lot to juggle for anybody.

00:47:24:18 - 00:47:40:19

Luna

Yeah, it's tough to manage. And then people also change a lot. And then sometimes people say one thing and they think they mean it, but they actually mean a different thing. But we all don't get to find out until they find out. And sometimes they don't find out until everything gets fucked up. It's what I've learned about adulthood.

00:47:40:21 - 00:47:53:11

Mickey

I'm going to say that almost sounds like personal experience there, doesn't crazy. I think for anyone starting out with it, you're just going to make mistakes. You're just going to. You can't do this right right away. It's impossible.

00:47:53:16 - 00:48:13:15

Luna

There isn't a right because we, to some degree, are making every new relationship up as we go along. Even the norm is to kind. Okay, so I want to ask you some specific questions to talk about the pleasure, work and desire you're doing. So if you were. Okay. So we're in kind of a sci fi world right now.

00:48:13:15 - 00:48:31:13

Luna

But it's our current world. But it's a world in which you the overlords have locked you in a room, a nice cozy plush room. It can look like whatever makes you feel comfortable and safe. And your partner, your real partner not taken over by androids or anything is there with you the comfy agreement for everyone? It is for the next 15 minutes.

00:48:31:15 - 00:48:38:19

Luna

The focus is only your genital pleasure. What happens or what might happen?

00:48:38:21 - 00:48:57:07

Mickey

Well, you know, that's actually like a thing I have found the idea of really interesting is being forced to not be in charge. I think what would be really sexy is not even knowing what's going to happen. Somebody being like, whatever happened to you, dude, is going to happen and you're going to love it and you're going to just sit there and take it because that's so not be like, I'm, you know, I hate the phrase alpha.

00:48:57:07 - 00:49:18:01

Mickey

I think it's like such a dumb idea. And it comes from a faulty scientific paper to begin with. Right. But like, I do like being in control and I think that there's fear, you know, because of that informs that or whatever. Even just sitting still long enough to receive pleasure feels a little struggle for me because I have ADHD and all this other stuff.

00:49:18:01 - 00:49:19:13

Luna

But me.

00:49:19:15 - 00:49:43:17

Mickey

I think the idea of being forced to overcome that, like someone being like, okay, dude, like, you know, you can't break out of these chains. This person and maybe more people are going to do a bunch of stuff to you, like, enjoy it. Like, that's scary to me, but it's scary in a way that seems fun too. And I think it's why I like the idea of going to sex parties or sex clubs or whatever so much, because there is such a huge element of unknown.

00:49:43:19 - 00:50:02:04

Mickey

You don't know who's going to be attracted to you, you don't know what they're going to ask you to do. You don't know what they like or don't like. You might have to try something new for the first time. It's that element of uncontrolled that I think I find just the sexy, if not more so than like, you know, doing fun stuff with other attractive people that are new.

00:50:02:06 - 00:50:24:02

Mickey

Right? Like that is cool. Sure. But I think it's the unknown ness that I really, really find sexy and interesting because like, if you look at sex mechanically, there's like 15 things we can do to each other. The mouth goes on the penis or like, you know, you stick your tongue in her ass or whatever. And like those physical, she don't change much, but it's all the external stuff around it.

00:50:24:02 - 00:50:25:01

Mickey

The change is constant.

00:50:25:01 - 00:50:25:17

Luna

Yeah.

00:50:25:19 - 00:50:40:22

Mickey

Right. So that's the stuff that I find so interesting about multiple partners or even just doing things with multiple people is like, how does this thing, this mechanical act, change when you change the variables so much?

00:50:40:22 - 00:50:44:12

Luna

That's my favorite thing about having sex with different people too, which is.

00:50:44:14 - 00:50:53:02

Mickey

Like, what do you like? Like letting a kid loose in a room full of beakers and chemicals and stuff, right? Like make something blow up. I want to, like, I want to make a bunch of stuff blow up.

00:50:53:04 - 00:51:10:13

Luna

Totally. Yes. Yes. I want to make a lot of stuff really explode over and over again. That's exactly what I want to do. People always write to me and they're like, you'd make a great therapist. You'd make a great, like, sex reason. Like, you should go be a sex doctor. I'm like, fuck no, I want to have it and talk about it publicly.

00:51:10:13 - 00:51:26:14

Luna

I can't have shared too much. It's okay. I'm an anecdotal researcher. This is for pleasure. Like this is life and pleasure. I want to ask you some specific questions about the physical experiences you've experienced so far. Like how sensitive is your cock and where are its most sensitive spots.

00:51:26:16 - 00:51:41:22

Mickey

So I'm fairly sensitive right around the glands, I think, like most people, but not to the point where like when I talk to other dudes like you know, that I can actually have these conversations with that's like, like a town on one hand type of thing. Right? But like, yeah, some people do just like, oh my God, you touch that.

00:51:41:22 - 00:51:58:11

Mickey

It's like it's over, right? Or like, you know, it's so sensitive. I don't have that level of like ultra sensitivity for whatever reason, like I don't it's actually other parts of my body that feel more sensitive like that. Like for example.

00:51:58:13 - 00:52:00:12

Luna

Like kisses or Lexer touch that.

00:52:00:14 - 00:52:21:07

Mickey

Oh yeah. Like that to me has more of a direct physical like effect. Yeah, necessarily than like touching specific parts of my penis or even my testicles. Those are very sensitive either. Yeah. So I've always felt bad for people that have been trying to pleasure me because I'm like, I'm not crazy sensitive. It really it takes a lot more like mind work.

00:52:21:12 - 00:52:22:00

Luna

Yeah.

00:52:22:02 - 00:52:39:10

Mickey

Cool to get me there, right? Because I'm not very sensitive. Like, I watch, like, homemade porn videos. I'm on Pornhub or whatever. And I'm like a guy that whole job that last five minutes. And you give a jacket late, I'm like, you son of a bitch. Yeah, like, I wish we could just bang one of these out really quick before we have to go to the movies or whatever, right.

00:52:39:10 - 00:52:50:18

Luna

I just wanted to make you aware that there's so many do that I can only last, like, five minutes, especially if it's a blowjob. But I just want to be able to be one of those people that lasts for, like, ever and never comes from a blowjob. Like, I literally hear it from all sides.

00:52:50:20 - 00:53:13:04

Mickey

But always greater. I know, I know, I have a feeling that there's probably more erogenous zones to me that we haven't really gotten around to yet. My partner has been like, hey, like, what do you feel about, like being penetrated? Like, you know, like ass play or whatever, like any other G-spot up there, right. Let's find it. So we've just started dipping toes into that, going slow, doing research.

00:53:13:04 - 00:53:24:05

Mickey

Don't get hurt, you know, like whatever. I know that it's like one of those things you can't just, like, you know, let's do this. Also, as a paramedic, I can tell you I've seen injuries, things getting lost, like you, just like, you know, better.

00:53:24:10 - 00:53:31:16

Luna

Always use anal toys that have a base so they don't get sucked up, always have a base, always have a base.

00:53:31:18 - 00:53:51:00

Mickey

So we are doing some more like exploratory things like what feels good to you when we can. The only thing that's complicated, that is the time that we have right now, like a lot of times, has to be a little more like, well, we know what does work, let's do that. And when we do have the time, my partner is awesome in that.

00:53:51:00 - 00:53:57:01

Mickey

Like, does this feel good? Does this feel good? Let's talk about it. Well, let me try this on a checklist. She's like really really great about that.

00:53:57:05 - 00:54:06:19

Luna

But wait finish your sentence though. Like what is your asshole like right now. Like is there still nervousness. Is there any pleasure yet? If it's still just like, I don't know, it took me nine months to be like, yeah.

00:54:06:21 - 00:54:31:17

Mickey

You know, I wish I could say it was even just nervousness about like the physical thing and not getting hurt or whatever, but like, I'm coming from a time where it was pretty well established that if anything penetrated you anally, you would get. I feel like I'm like a more enlightened being than a lot of people in my age group, and I'm actively trying hard to, like, take in more information and not be ignorant.

00:54:31:22 - 00:54:35:01

Mickey

But some things are just so hard wired because of the culture that you grew up in.

00:54:35:03 - 00:54:37:01

Luna

You're a human with a nervous system.

00:54:37:03 - 00:54:59:18

Mickey

Right? Yeah, I'm having to, like, conquer that in real time. Like when something's about to get close, I'm like, wait, you know? And you're getting over that idea. And one of the things that I'm trying to do to get over stuff like that is like a radical yes situation. We have some friends back on the East Coast that were like one of our first experiences in like a group situation.

00:55:00:00 - 00:55:18:09

Mickey

This one, girl in particular, we worked together and just like sitting in an ambulance for ten, 12 hours at a time to talk about all kinds of stuff. And I found out that she was polyamorous and whatever, and I had no idea what that was, really. So she's really my gateway. She is also one of the super direct people that's like, did your heart if you ever want to do that, like, let's do it.

00:55:18:11 - 00:55:37:05

Mickey

So one of our first expenses with her was it was really great. And then not terribly long ago, we had an experience with her and her male partner, and we had some friends who were at the pool, like we were hanging out, like we came back to the house. Stuff started happening like hetero, hetero type thing. But her boyfriend, who I didn't know this until this happened, is bisexual.

00:55:37:05 - 00:55:50:18

Mickey

And he's like, hey man, can I go to alone? You? And I'm just like, all right. Like I just said, yes. I'm like, I don't know, like, is this going to be cool or not cool? It was fine. Like, it didn't really do much for me in like, a titillating way. Yeah. Like it wasn't bad, but I'm just like, I tried it.

00:55:50:18 - 00:56:04:10

Mickey

I know, I know, I just don't want to say no to anything right now because I feel like I know so little about myself that way. I think that there's like, probably only maybe 2 or 3 super hard limits that I just I know for a fact, just like we're not ever going to do that.

00:56:04:14 - 00:56:06:18

Luna

Like blood stuff and poop stuff or what is it.

00:56:06:19 - 00:56:29:06

Mickey

Yeah, that's exactly right. Like excretory stuff, bodily fluids that don't come from the genitals like that. Aside from that. Okay. I'm open. Almost like literally anything else. I just want to try everything. Right. But like, because I don't know. And it's weird not knowing. Like, I feel like I'm like, just realizing that I've had this big hole in my gut for, like 40 years now.

00:56:29:08 - 00:56:48:06

Mickey

I feel like I'm really, really good at pleasuring other people. Like, one thing that I always say is that if somebody is having a conversation with you and they're like, I'm good at sex, I'm like, you're full of shit. No one is good at. You're good at sex with someone. And that's only if you listen. And if you listen to what they tell you they like and don't like.

00:56:48:08 - 00:57:00:07

Mickey

And if you pay attention to their body when you're doing things, you can get good at sex with a person, but no one is just magically great at sex. Like I walk into a room and I can fuck any one of these people and get them off like, no, you fucking can't.

00:57:00:09 - 00:57:24:07

Luna

I don't love that thought. I would love to hear what else are you wanting to explore? Like what's your or what? Or maybe even not specifics, but like, what's your strategy here? You're in such a big area of newness. I'm also hearing that you have a large possibility of yeses. Maybe I'm extrapolating, but maybe it sounds like also because you have a ton of resiliency and like, stable foundation in your life of if it goes, I'm saying air quotes poorly.

00:57:24:07 - 00:57:36:01

Luna

You, you know, you can recover like you've done work on yourself. You have a therapist you trust, you've a partner who's super supportive, and it sounds like you're on the same page. So how are you kind of like navigating this next big chapter of explorations?

00:57:36:03 - 00:58:00:09

Mickey

So I mean, as stable as it all sounds like, the stability is also fairly new. Our second attempt at polyamory was tough. And like we went through some some serious strife for a while. I don't think that we were ever in danger of losing the relationship, but stuff got very, very intense and tough for a while. Thankfully, we've been in couples counseling like almost as long as we've been a couple because we both very much bought nice RV as like value, right?

00:58:00:14 - 00:58:21:20

Mickey

Totally. Even when nothing's wrong, right? Like just having a dedicated hour every week or two weeks to just talk to each other without kids or whatever, like so vital. Right? So I think that we've realized that right now, polyamory in its purest form, where you can have like true deep relationships with other people right now is threatening for various reasons.

00:58:21:20 - 00:58:44:06

Mickey

Right. And like, there's nothing like I'm not, like, angry with my partner or like, you know, whatever about it because I understand where it's coming from. You know, there's some traumatic roots to that as well. And fears are being replaced and whatever. Right. And it totally makes sense. And I'm like meeting her where she is, which is another thing that my therapist and I've been working on a lot is like not trying to impose control all the time and taking in feedback.

00:58:44:06 - 00:59:04:08

Mickey

Right? So like, I can relate. What we realized is that when there was these like multiple partnered sexual events where it was my friends from work or whatever, and it was casual, we had a lot of fun and there was no threat. And I remember when this was all happening and glancing over and I'm like, oh, my wife is blowing that dude like, that's hot.

00:59:04:09 - 00:59:26:13

Mickey

Like, wow. And I'd never been in a situation where like, that wasn't threatening to me before when I was younger, you know what I mean? So like, I think that like, we're realizing that like, the way to do this is probably more of like a baby step situation, like, let's try a sex party, see what happens. Like, let's go to a sex club where it's controlled and people get like consent rules and whatever.

00:59:26:13 - 00:59:52:15

Mickey

And like maybe start to dip toes in to safer waters, you know what I mean? And, like, see what feels good, what doesn't feel good. Because I think that neither one of us feels entirely monogamous. It's just like getting there is harder than it looks. And it takes time, you know? And there's a lot of stuff to unlearn, especially if there's trauma or if there's, you know, things that have gone wrong, you know, like you can't just jump in headfirst all the time and not hurt someone.

00:59:52:17 - 01:00:21:10

Mickey

And I think that I got so excited about learning more about myself that I stopped considering how difficult or not difficult it was for my partner, you know, and it was a bit of a like, painful, like recalibration to be like, hey, dude. Yeah, like you can explore, but it's not all about you either. You have to hold each other's hand and go through this with care, you know, with respect, with with forethought, with empathy, you know?

01:00:21:10 - 01:00:46:02

Mickey

And I guess I got so excited about the idea of like, oh, yeah, like what? I deserve the things that I want to let me go get all of them at once and just, like, grab everything and like, you know, try to run out of the store with like, 65 things in my hands at once, right? Don't even hold them up, you know, like, and I think that it really took us a while to realize, like, this can be done and it's not the end of the world and it's not not going to happen necessarily.

01:00:46:04 - 01:01:04:12

Mickey

But like baby steps, man. Totally like learn to crawl, then walk, then run. You know? So I think that like for us, the next steps really are going to be like maybe try to find a party or a vibe or a group of people that are vetted and make sense and, you know, be careful and calm and whatever and just see what happens.

01:01:04:12 - 01:01:14:11

Mickey

Like, I love the idea of watching my wife with someone else, I really do. And then if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I know no matter what, at the end of the day, my partner and I are going to be good.

01:01:14:13 - 01:01:38:23

Luna

Totally. Well, also, when humans say things like even if it doesn't work out that time, or if it's not okay, that I think that when we are leaping, when we are at least trying to follow our desires, I really, truly believe that staying in integrity with ourselves, our own needs, and those of those who we've committed to. I think that filling those desires together, it doesn't matter if it's like, oh, that was a success in terms of we tried it and we liked it.

01:01:38:23 - 01:02:05:00

Luna

I think that's where I get hung up. At least I think it's like as long as I'm trying, I pretty much trust that it's a matter of timing. It's a when, not an if. And so then I can day to day, live a little bit more calmly or a little bit more, even if I'm, oh, you know that disappointed about XYZ, the art thing or sex thing or like, oh, it's been almost a year since I've had sex and like, okay, but I'm, I can feel the parts of me that now that I've identified my desire, I'm like, I should get it now because I identified it.

01:02:05:00 - 01:02:20:21

Luna

And that's the hard part, right? And now I'm going for it. So why don't I get it right away? But even as a solo person, I can only imagine that being in a couple makes it. You know, it's that many more spinning plates, and then you add kids and finances and life and all of it. I mean, wow, a.

01:02:20:23 - 01:02:37:08

Mickey

Tough time in my life to to like, realize that I had so much to learn because I have all these other external factors that are making it harder to just go explore, you know, like, yeah, oh yeah, we're the first time we had an easier time of it because like, my older kids lived in Texas, we were in New York.

01:02:37:08 - 01:02:53:08

Mickey

I saw them for the summer. We didn't have our kids yet. We were free. We were in the biggest city in the world. And like, it just made stuff easier. You know, like, we could risk this and it's are going to, you know, it's all going to affect so many people for so long. We can do whatever we want now.

01:02:53:08 - 01:03:10:23

Mickey

It's just like even just our, our spare time feels so precious that if you try something and it doesn't work out, you're like, oh, well, I could have been doing something that we know works out. So you have to overcome even your own reluctance to like, spend the resources that you have. That for us right now is like time and energy.

01:03:11:01 - 01:03:22:21

Mickey

So it's an interesting time to get here. But I'm just grateful that I did, because you could be 70 or 80 and be like, oh my God, I could have been doing this my whole life and I never did. And what a waste.

01:03:22:23 - 01:03:43:15

Luna

I hadn't felt that way when I was 27 and discovered kink for the first time. I was like, what have I been doing? It's like I wasn't ready for that. Also, this is exactly why I dream of finishing Creation Place and all of my project pitches. Because in the desert, a hotel creation that had the grown ups side and the family side, that somehow in my perfect world would be like subsidized.

01:03:43:16 - 01:03:55:06

Luna

Like I want everyone to have like 1 to 3 weeks there, a year where they can come and bring the family, and the family has a safe spot for the kids to be in the daytime, and the grown ups come over here and they just fuck nicely and they can learn stuff and have a camp.

01:03:55:07 - 01:04:13:06

Mickey

Yeah, I mean, in our culture, I think it's really set up that if you do have like the traditional nuclear family, like it's not set up for you to have a sex life, you don't get to be a sexual creature. Like you don't even get to like, talk about the things that you like sexually. Like, honestly, without people being like, dude, you have kids.

01:04:13:06 - 01:04:28:21

Mickey

Like, what are you talking about? You're being gross right now, right? Like, it's almost like when you're 27 and you're like, yeah, I got tied up by a stranger the other day. People are like, right on. That's cool. Like, whatever. And then, like, your wife does it and tells your friends and you're like, let her do that, dude.

01:04:28:23 - 01:04:31:18

Mickey

It's just like, there's such a, like, an unfair dichotomy.

01:04:31:20 - 01:04:45:14

Luna

Well, I'm in a bubble, remember? I'm in a super bubble where, like most of the couples I hear from are either like people I'm meeting on dating apps or people who talk to me here. So I'm like, pretty much everyone is open now, right? You know, which is not like, you know, I have the bubble.

01:04:45:16 - 01:05:03:18

Mickey

Yeah. What are the reasons I want to do this show is because I felt like people like me are underrepresented when it comes to this conversation. Yeah. Like, do we get to be sexual, too? How can we make space for all of us? Right. And like, even just like, what was your pitch about a place where, like the hotel creation, right.

01:05:03:18 - 01:05:08:00

Mickey

Like when I heard you talk about that, I'm like, why isn't that everywhere?

01:05:08:02 - 01:05:44:00

Luna

Well, that's exactly what I want to do. I want to do creation spaces everywhere, which will be the local version. And then hotel creation is the Mecca, and everyone can ride on cool busses to there and then do arts and crafts and family bonding activities. It's not all about fucking, it is about creativity. It is about raising our future generations with the emotional and communication tools and research tools and critical thinking skills that we need to feel okay as humans in these bodies that have very real physical needs that you know all about, like because physical and emotional needs that we kind of ignore a lot because of technology, because what gets sold to us,

01:05:44:00 - 01:05:48:22

Luna

because of whatever's prioritized. And like, literally sex is for all of us.

01:05:49:00 - 01:06:12:11

Mickey

Yeah. And then when you have kids, it's almost like some, like, there's this, like, unspoken expectation that, like, they're the most important thing in your life and everything that you want gets to live on this, like, level down here. So, and I did that like the wrong way to go about it, because then what ends up happening is you get so many parents that present their kids who then treat them poorly, and then the kids grow up fucked up and then the cycle continues.

01:06:12:11 - 01:06:25:08

Mickey

Yeah, I think that, like, we need to find a way to really get back to the idea that everyone deserves to have their needs met, whatever they are. And then you model good behavior for the kids who then grow up normal, and then everybody's happier in the long run, right?

01:06:25:08 - 01:06:35:13

Luna

Like that's all I want. I just want a world where taking care of each other is the norm. Nikki, you're helping us get there. What else do we need to know about your sex life? What have we not learned yet?

01:06:35:15 - 01:06:57:00

Mickey

Sexting, sharing pictures back and forth, that sort of thing has really been such a godsend for me in my relationship. Especially when, like, time really wasn't a factor at all. Like, we couldn't have sex very often were when my partner was recovering after pregnancy. Like at times that was all there was, you know, and as a paramedic, I worked 24 hour shifts.

01:06:57:02 - 01:06:58:15

Mickey

So I'm not able to.

01:06:58:21 - 01:07:01:12

Luna

Yeah, I didn't know that. What?

01:07:01:14 - 01:07:18:06

Mickey

It's not everywhere. But yeah, I worked 24 straight hours and then I'm off for 72. So I've gotten to the point where I could sleep 2 or 3 hours at a time, okay. And then do stuff and then go to sleep again. It's all very like fluid for me, right? Like, but yeah, so, like being awake for 24 straight hours.

01:07:18:08 - 01:07:40:01

Mickey

That's a long time to not be connected with your partner or whatever. Like it's not common. Most people go to work, they come home, they have dinner together, go to bed together, whatever. So we have this deprivation built in. So we have to fill that space like, you know, so the sex thing, even just like, man, I wish you were home because I would do this to you and this to you and like, oh, I needed that right now.

01:07:40:02 - 01:08:05:06

Mickey

Because all I've dealt with right now is blood and guts for the last six hours straight like this puts me back in a headspace where, like, yeah, stuff in life is great. Like, there is like these positive things, and I don't have to get so wrapped up in the stuff. I see the pictures even like for people that have been together almost ten years, every time I get a picture from this woman on my phone, that's like the first time I've ever seen her, you know, I'm just like, oh yes, yes, this is so fucking hard.

01:08:05:06 - 01:08:19:21

Mickey

Like, oh, she looks so good in this or, or whatever. Like, oh, I love her hair in this or whatever. And then it just reignites it all over again as much as it's great to see her body or what she's wearing or whatever, it's like, I'm thinking of you right now sexually. It's affirming, you know, it's like, yeah, I am gone right now.

01:08:19:21 - 01:08:24:00

Mickey

But yeah, I still live in her head there. That's that's great. Yeah. Like, that's good for me to know.

01:08:24:00 - 01:08:25:15

Luna

Yeah, I fuck yeah.

01:08:25:17 - 01:08:44:03

Mickey

And sometimes I don't even realize that I need it. You know, if like, I see something really bad at work which does happen, you know, and then, like, I don't even necessarily tell her, but then I get a picture or, like, a cute sext or whatever, and I'm like, oh, okay, this takes me out of that thing. And this brought me back to a good place to sex is healing too, right?

01:08:44:03 - 01:08:58:10

Mickey

Like we don't just needed to to meet physical needs, a spiritual and emotional need to absorb. So recreation. Right. Like for the jobs that we do that are hard because she's a therapist and I do this and we both here see that stuff. And like, this is how we help regulate each other.

01:08:58:12 - 01:09:12:03

Luna

Totally. Yeah. I was going to say that earlier. When you mention that she's a social worker near a paramedic, my first thought was like, that's like a hot, nurturing couple that also can deal with shit. Like, that's intense.

01:09:12:05 - 01:09:33:14

Mickey

And the communication level is extremely high, which is our favorite thing about this relationship is like, we've really gotten to a point where there is there's no secrets. There's no when I talk to people that are partnered and they talk like they hide stuff, or they're worried about leaving their own somewhere, it could be seen or like, you know, I wish that we could just do this, but I wish that she would just listen or whatever.

01:09:33:14 - 01:09:52:06

Mickey

I'm like, I don't understand any of you at all. Like, this is a fucking problem. It really is like, talk to each other, give it a shot, try it. Yeah, but it is still. And I realize I'm looking at it now from like, the fact that both of us are good communicators to begin with. And then we've learned how to communicate better through our jobs.

01:09:52:06 - 01:09:53:00

Mickey

You know, it's a skill.

01:09:53:04 - 01:10:17:21

Luna

And we need examples in society. How many movies do we see, like compare in your head, the number of movies you can imagine where like the struggle of the plot? Point is, we just couldn't express it to our selves and each other, you know? And how many movies do you see where, like, couples are having really thoughtful conversations that further their intimacy connection and like, it's we don't see it.

01:10:18:01 - 01:10:19:15

Luna

So how do we know? How do we know.

01:10:19:19 - 01:10:23:17

Mickey

That the couples that hate each other, the old ball and chain thing, right then.

01:10:23:18 - 01:10:29:00

Luna

And then we emulate it, and then we feel justified in like the silent treatment, because that's what we see in the romcoms or whatever. I don't know.

01:10:29:04 - 01:10:40:13

Mickey

I do want to say something about nudes to men that are listening to the show, like taking a top down picture of your penis and sending it to someone is not flattering, man.

01:10:40:16 - 01:11:00:18

Luna

Especially if there's laundry, especially for feet. Look like they're coming out of your dick. Especially if you're like, when I could see, like, hair on the floor. It's very funny to me, but, you know, it is very hot. Just like when someone makes a little effort and you can see the whole thing, you can see the body, you can see the person.

01:11:00:20 - 01:11:19:12

Mickey

You know. I remember like one of the pictures that I sent that got more of a reaction than anything that was truly nude, was like, I took a picture of myself in the shower, like pulling my hair back like biceps, flexing nothing from the waist down. And my wife hit me like a hungry tiger when I got home.

01:11:19:14 - 01:11:39:16

Mickey

You know what I mean? It so touched her up just because it was like, this is the visual data that, like, is more appealing to women sometimes, right? Like it's not just about X, Y or Z like set a mood, convey some of these pictures, right? Like try a little harder. You have Google dude like look use it.

01:11:39:18 - 01:11:54:18

Luna

I was thinking about that just this morning as I was washing dishes because I was like, well, okay. I guess I agree that there are no stupid questions, but there are some lazy questions when Google's available now. Like, you know, like to me personally, I was thinking about some of the stuff that people reach out to ask me or whatever, just like or like on the internet.

01:11:54:18 - 01:12:13:16

Luna

And I'm like, well, I'm not a teacher. I also will just say I love a good like, I like the X, Y, and Z like I want lens low. I want to see if it's a person with penis. I want to see the penis. I like to also see the face in the body. If it's someone with boobs because they like whatever they feel good about.

01:12:13:18 - 01:12:32:02

Luna

But if someone never sends me a nude, then I sort of worry that they don't feel good about, you know, then I'm going to have to basically teach them how to be comfortable. Being naked is what it's been like in the past. Okay, so I know we heard about your hopes going forward, but like maybe speak to the larger kind of like overarching sexual hopes for your future.

01:12:32:04 - 01:12:39:18

Mickey

I want to collect experiences. I don't want it to make it sound as cold as like checking stuff off the checklist. But in a way, that's kind of what I want to do.

01:12:39:20 - 01:12:49:14

Luna

Yeah, I'm calling it a hot bucket list. I have a bucket list, but I'm not rushing through checking off my things. I want them to happen organically. Unfold daily. Yeah, organically.

01:12:49:14 - 01:13:04:11

Mickey

Yeah, yeah, I see me too. One of the things that like I enjoy most about spontaneity, right? Like I love the idea of things happening, like because they happen. And I do know that, like, you know, there needs to be a certain amount of control.

01:13:04:11 - 01:13:12:00

Luna

I was going to say you also talked about setting up the clear frame of safety so that when the time comes, are ready to go is what I heard earlier.

01:13:12:02 - 01:13:31:20

Mickey

Yeah. And honestly, that's why like the more research that I've done about like sex clubs and things like that, sex parties where people know what they're doing, I would rather wait and find the sex party that's vetted well, like they know what they're doing. Like people that don't follow the rules get rejected. You know what I mean? I want to be saying, I want that to be safe for my partner.

01:13:31:22 - 01:13:43:02

Mickey

And, you know, then that's the environment where the best stuff happens. Yeah. So I'm trying to be patient. It's just difficult because I'm so excited to I want to jump. Relax.

01:13:43:04 - 01:13:47:11

Luna

We are practicing letting go of impatience here too.

01:13:47:13 - 01:14:03:01

Mickey

Yes. It's hard, super hard. Right. But I do want to do the group stuff. I want to have sex in front of other people and have them see me. I love the idea of, you know, I've been a performer my whole life. I miss it, you know? And like, I love the idea of performing sexually in front of people.

01:14:03:01 - 01:14:21:02

Mickey

Like, I like the idea of seeing my wife in that environment and being divorced from it a little bit and looking, you know, watching her experience things like, that's the main stuff. I think that I want to start branching out into and like, we want to take an intro into rope classes, like, we want to like explore that and see what that does for us.

01:14:21:02 - 01:14:39:15

Mickey

And if it's not cool, like, okay, fine, we learned how to tie some knots like that to school. Another thing that we talked about, because there is a trauma element in my wife's past, is like she brought up to me that some people are experimenting with dumb sub relationships as like a therapeutic, you know, conquering fear and getting over trauma and that sort of stuff.

01:14:39:15 - 01:14:57:09

Mickey

And like, we're beginning to do the basic research into that to see if that's something that we can, like, get into and explore. I have never wanted to be that guy who's like the dumb who read like one article 17 years ago and just like says and does all the wrong stuff and is super toxic, like, yeah, I just want to avoid that, you know?

01:14:57:09 - 01:15:23:04

Mickey

But so for me, it's always research, you know, measure twice, cut once. Right. So we're in this phase right now where it's mostly let's explore all this stuff. So now let's read all that. Let's read all the things. Let's hear the podcasts. Let's talk to people that know what they're talking, you know. So I think that like once this year ends and we get into next year, we'll be right at the cusp of like, okay, now we can we can try.

01:15:23:06 - 01:15:33:16

Mickey

This is just the part where we're like, learn first, then try so no one gets hurt. It's just like, this is the hardest part because I'm like, let's do it now you're preparing.

01:15:33:18 - 01:15:50:19

Luna

Dude. That's how I feel about all my projects. I've been working in the background for around a year, a little over a year, like on all this stuff that I'm like, I just want to share it with all of you, but it's not ready. But I still have to keep work. Okay, I feel you. If you could go back in time and give a younger you a piece of sex advice, what age or age is would you pick on?

01:15:50:19 - 01:15:52:00

Luna

What would you say?

01:15:52:02 - 01:16:19:12

Mickey

Oh, I've been waiting for this question because I would have so much to say to that little bastard. I totally would know. But all jokes aside, I would grab myself and be like, dude, it's okay to want stuff. It's okay to want to feel pleasure. It's okay to make this about you too. And I think that, like, I would try my best to undo the idea that being forward in any way move the needle away from consent.

01:16:19:14 - 01:16:48:16

Mickey

That's the thing I didn't get, you know, like, I felt like if I wasn't just being entirely receptive, like, I need you to come to me so I know that you want this. That's not true, man. Like it's just not. You, like, take a couple of risks, but do them appropriate. I spent so much of my younger life bouncing from one extreme to the other, and I would have saved myself so much time and energy and heartache and guilt and regret if I hadn't found that middle ground sooner.

01:16:48:18 - 01:16:51:19

Mickey

And I think it would have taken one good conversation.

01:16:51:21 - 01:16:55:02

Luna

And then you wouldn't have to be doing all this hard stuff right now, and it would be perfect.

01:16:55:02 - 01:16:55:18

Mickey

Yeah.

01:16:55:19 - 01:17:01:10

Luna

Yeah, Fuck yeah. Do you have a sex question for me?

01:17:01:12 - 01:17:26:04

Mickey

Your mission is so clear. Like what you want to see happen with your all of your creation play stuff, the podcast, the doctor, all that, like, what's the next step to increase access for everyone? Like, how can we help as like, fellow soldiers in this conflict? You know what I mean? So like I wanted to use this question opportunity to be like, what does this fight look like five years from now?

01:17:26:04 - 01:17:28:18

Mickey

What does it look like a year from now? What's next?

01:17:28:19 - 01:17:45:21

Luna

I can tell you my best noodles, because this is literally what I spend most of my time thinking about, and probably is now the reason that I remain mostly single because I am pretty obsessed with like, no, but what are today's steps? No order, tomorrow's no. What am I? And I'm working on this thing, so I'll tell you.

01:17:45:23 - 01:18:20:14

Luna

I'll start by telling you broadly and most immediately what I think we collectively can tangibly do. And then I'll tell you what I'm working on in my own, like, working career. So first, publicly speaking, I literally believe that you coming here, you having conversations with your friend, any of us having conversations with our friends, with our lovers, pushing back on assumptions anytime we notice they're they're not in an aggressive way, not in an angry way, but with gentle curiosity and love to be or even just saying like, oh, I hear that experience.

01:18:20:16 - 01:18:43:07

Luna

Do want to hear how mine is actually different. And that's these are kind of like the way that we speak to each other. I dream of a world where the judgment and the blame and the canceling each other in an everyday way, as a righteous or self-righteous means to be like, I'm good because I told that person they were bad and wrong.

01:18:43:09 - 01:19:06:20

Luna

I'd really love us to shift that because obviously it's so easy to get mad at everyone, especially when we're only able to see from our point of view. And so, tangibly speaking, I wish that people would like talk to people outside their zone about sex, but not about sex. I think the other thing that I'm moving toward is like, not everyone's ready to talk about sex.

01:19:06:20 - 01:19:29:06

Luna

Not everyone wants to talk about sex. Not everyone is going to address this. That's why for me, creation place and my push toward more broad creativity as a means to connect that for me is the first step. So with our younger children really encouraging their creative impulses, really making sure when I talk to my fairy goddaughter, which is I don't I'm not Catholic, so I can't be a regular godmother.

01:19:29:08 - 01:19:43:05

Luna

But when I'm hanging out with my three year old fairy goddaughter, I make sure that I ask before I take a picture of her, even if she's being really cute and she says no half the time. Like, fuck, you know? And luckily her mom will take pictures of us when we're cute sometime. And then my best friend sent me stuff.

01:19:43:06 - 01:20:16:22

Luna

I will make sure that I am recognizing her creative abilities, but also asserting my boundaries in gentle ways and asking questions and practicing that negotiation with a little person instead of just asserting my control because I can pick her up and turn her around and makers. But you know, she doesn't get to spin really fast on the rocket ship unless she knows that the rocket ship has the right amount of fuel and isn't nauseous right now, although she got not first, you know, so broadly speaking, I really believe that it's education and each of us identifying our desires.

01:20:16:22 - 01:20:37:09

Luna

Literally the theme of what you're talking about. I believe that when we can identify our desires, communicate about them with the people who might help us meet them, the people who love us and who support us, maybe protecting them from other people who are not supportive. I think that's another piece of it. So that's what I see more broadly speaking.

01:20:37:09 - 01:20:59:11

Luna

But all of us together can do right now also sharing sex stories, because the more the podcast numbers grow, the more easy it is for me to get other like funding from those corporations that want to look like they love pride. So if we can just grow those numbers, great. If we could get to 69,000, great. What I'm working on specifically with sex stories, that is broadening into creation.

01:20:59:11 - 01:21:21:21

Luna

Place the online gallery, but then we'll have some secret stuff on. While Lidcombe. So that creation place is going to be a totally safe for work spot that doesn't even officially, explicitly link to naked places. And then naked places will lead you to other secret places. First I got to get sex stories numbers up, make some regular income.

01:21:21:23 - 01:21:48:02

Luna

Part of how I'm doing that is by building out creation. That's also going to be the landing place where I pitch my ideas from so investors can come and like look at my project overview. They can see what I'm actively creating, what I've been working on for the past few years. It's basically like a big resume thing. They could see my artist art, the non sexy art, and I'm working to find the people who are already doing versions of this work that are going really well.

01:21:48:04 - 01:22:07:22

Luna

So finding the sex clubs and sex communities and people who are doing it well, and then creating a larger, more organized network so that we can have the Starbucks of sex clubs available to us all. But not me coming in and being like, I'm going to do it the best way. But finding the people who are already doing it awesomely in their communities and empowering them.

01:22:08:00 - 01:22:24:10

Luna

So that is kind of the more broad scope that's long term. And then I have creative projects that hopefully will help fund that. I just finished editing my journal entries from the year of Perfect Sex with my former master. So that's going to turn into a book, and hopefully that'll help fund some stuff. So all over the place as far as I'm concerned.

01:22:24:10 - 01:22:36:04

Luna

But I sort of trust the divine timing and the unfolding and the research aspects of all of it. And I feel like the more people like you who come on here and all of us, you know, we have common goals and it'll happen.

01:22:36:06 - 01:22:43:17

Mickey

If we find good stuff in Austin. That seems like it would be valuable. Yes. Would it be cool to send that your way by email or. Yeah.

01:22:43:19 - 01:22:59:16

Luna

So I have an email folder of just recommendations. So whenever anyone emails me something it goes in that folder. So I'm going to find it and organize it in the future. And then I'm going to start putting that on creation place. Or I don't know if it's going to have to be different because it may be sex related at some point.

01:22:59:16 - 01:23:16:14

Luna

And we'll see. I think safe for work as long as I'm not showing erotic stuff. And except for whatever seems to be fine so far. And then I want to create basically a database of stuff that's vouched for in kind of like a ongoing current way. But yeah. Yeah. So yes, right now it's an email, email me stuff.

01:23:16:17 - 01:23:30:19

Luna

In the future, creation place will have a spot of like, do you want Wyatt to come to your area on the road trip? Is there cool stuff in your area on the road trip? Would you hang out or like, could while park or trailer on your property? Or, you know, there's going to be places for all of that?

01:23:30:20 - 01:23:40:07

Luna

Hopefully depending on how it all unfolds. So yeah, fuck yeah. We want recommendations ultimately building that up and just hoping to help connect the dots in whatever way I can.

01:23:40:09 - 01:23:41:15

Mickey

Awesome.

01:23:41:17 - 01:23:45:06

Luna

Mickey, thank you so much for being a guest on Sex Stories.

01:23:45:07 - 01:23:46:07

Mickey

This was a lot of fun.