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34 bisexual male, monogamous, married 10 years.

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00:09:53:03 - 00:10:09:19

Luna

Our guest today is a 34 year old bisexual male with a wife of ten years. He came out as bisexual after five years of marriage and has a masturbation fetish, is into play, and recently has been experimenting with cross-dressing. A warehouse worker from Utah. Welcome, Chase.

00:10:09:21 - 00:10:10:22

Chase

Hello.

00:10:11:00 - 00:10:25:01

Luna

Hey, can you start off by telling us if you had to rate yourself on a sexual shame, a meter with ten being the most full of sexual shame and one being the least. Can you tell us where you fall right now? And then? Like where you fall usually in your life if they're different?

00:10:25:03 - 00:10:52:07

Chase

Yeah. There, as you say, usually in your life. I thought about this question in three different aspects. I mean to myself, if I'm just thinking to myself how I feel about the kinks and the things that I'm into and those fetishes, you know, I'm at peace with it. With a zero or a one love. As we get into, like, my relationship with my wife of 13 years, ten of them being married, three of them while we were dating, I think those three while we were dating, it was probably six, 7 or 8.

00:10:52:09 - 00:11:13:08

Chase

And over the years now we're down to a 1 or 2. So lots of communication bringing that sex shame meter down. But with that being said, friends, family, coworkers. That's got to go right back up to that seven, 8 or 9. Which is kind of why I listen to your show and why I'm here, because I think in a perfect world, we want to be on a one.

00:11:13:09 - 00:11:26:03

Chase

And I think it'd be a lot more interesting if we could have these conversations with the friends and the family members and the coworkers, and not just for a podcast or so. I think those are the three areas that I've always thought about. This answer.

00:11:26:05 - 00:11:47:17

Luna

I love that answer. I love the thoughtfulness and the specificity. Also, every time I ask a question, I see like 16 different ways to answer the questions too. So I really appreciate that and I agree. More interesting, maybe more pleasure filled. And I think for me too, the reason why I like knowing these details about people is because this is when I feel like I'm starting to get to know the core of a person.

00:11:47:18 - 00:11:56:15

Luna

So thank you for these beautiful insights already. I would like to know next. Can you give us a little overview of what your sex life is like right now and what your favorite parts are right now?

00:11:56:15 - 00:12:18:01

Chase

Because I've, you know, brought that shame a meter with my wife down to like, that 1 or 2, even ten years into marriage, we're still doing a lot of things for the first time because I've been able to open up a lot more. So there's a lot of areas that we're still hitting on for the first time, and we really preach on conversations outside of the bedroom.

00:12:18:01 - 00:12:42:13

Chase

So things that really get me going and we talk about I'm very big into the podcasts in the sexual space. She doesn't listen to those as much. She actually reads a lot of male male erotic novels. And so we kind of come together and we share what I've heard on podcasts and the storylines that she's getting out of the books, and then it all benefits us when it comes to lights out time at night.

00:12:42:15 - 00:12:49:15

Luna

Amazing. That's awesome. Can you tell us now what is sexy to you? Your personal definition.

00:12:49:17 - 00:13:08:19

Chase

I like this one because if you would have asked, like the 17 year old male version of me, it would have all been like a visible answer. It would have been, you know, like the legs and the butt and the yoga pants and the thong wearers. But as you start to think about this more, I think those are all visible things that start out with one trait.

00:13:08:19 - 00:13:29:15

Chase

And I think that's confidence. And as we've gone into a world where body positivity is huge, you start to see that confidence now in our body types and all humans. That is becoming more sexy to me is confidence. No matter what type of body you have, what type of person you are, that's actually what sexy to me now is that confidence?

00:13:29:17 - 00:13:32:12

Luna

Beautiful. When do you feel sexy?

00:13:32:14 - 00:13:52:05

Chase

Lately it's been, as you mentioned, kind of getting into the cross-dressing. I didn't know that my wife was actually just going to be on board. However, I tell you, I'm jealous that the girls get to feel that way with some of that tight clothing, and the males are hidden in basketball shorts and loose shirt. And when you get into that a little bit, you realize that's what makes your body feel good.

00:13:52:05 - 00:14:13:23

Chase

And especially with things like weight loss and working out, you want to be able to show off that body. So I think it's same with that confidence and I'm not quite there yet with the confidence in showing some of those things out in public, like Speedo at the beach, even though I've definitely worked on my body a lot this year, and I got the abs, I got the muscles, I think I could do it, but still don't quite have that confidence.

00:14:14:01 - 00:14:19:04

Luna

Okay, what do you imagine would get you there? What do you think it would feel like if you got there?

00:14:19:06 - 00:14:31:14

Chase

Oh, that is a good question. I think it really is just like breaking the ice just one time, you know, you got to just do it once, getting that thrill. And that's always the hard part is just that first encounter, that first time.

00:14:31:18 - 00:14:49:06

Luna

Yeah, I actually really agree because I for myself now, I sometimes forget if I'm wearing clothes or not, which is a huge shift from my early 20s. And for me, it was all through years and years of taking pictures of myself naked, especially after I shaved my head six years ago. And yeah, I feel like I just needed practice.

00:14:49:08 - 00:15:02:04

Luna

Like practice enjoying just being in my body and not worrying about anything else, I don't know. I'm sure there's more on that that I'll noodle on. Okay, back to you. What counts as sex for you?

00:15:02:06 - 00:15:23:16

Chase

This is one of those outside of the bedroom conversation because we, I think for the longest time determine that as penetration. But over the years, like we're actually having a lot less penetration sex and we actually just enjoy masturbating in bed next to each other. And I think sometimes it's that chore of who's going to do the work versus the other one.

00:15:23:16 - 00:15:43:01

Chase

And so if we can actually, you know, usually I'm the one edging next to her while she's having multiples, and that ends up being more fun than if there's just a few pumps and in and out and it's over. So to me, anything that we can get intimate in the bedroom we're counting is sex. And we fooled around that night, so we don't even use the word sex.

00:15:43:01 - 00:15:45:15

Chase

Like, when are we going to fool around the house?

00:15:45:17 - 00:16:01:06

Luna

Oh my gosh, I was just editing old journal entries for my sex journals with my first Domme. And one of the things that super turned me on is we're mid-session making out. And he looked at me and said, you want to go fool around some more? I love that fooling around is so hot. And I love that expanded definition of sex too.

00:16:01:06 - 00:16:15:06

Luna

I think that's amazing because there is a lot of focus on penetration, but there's so much other awesome stuff. When you were young, did you ever get an explicit lesson, either on consent or some sort of sex talk from adults in your life?

00:16:15:07 - 00:16:35:04

Chase

No, I did not. I had two working parents in my life and so we were handed off to babysitters quite often, so there was really no talk. And to be honest, I think there's a few instances I think we'll covered that it will show that they probably weren't ready to have those talks. I think the awkwardness kept them from those type of talks.

00:16:35:06 - 00:16:36:04

Chase

Okay.

00:16:36:06 - 00:16:48:16

Luna

As an adult, do you have any moments where a clear conversation about desire led to some sort of explicit. Yes, like a mutually agreed upon, like, oh yeah, let's do it. That ended up being really, really hot.

00:16:48:18 - 00:17:06:00

Chase

Yeah. That's actually it was like a month or two ago even we were fooling around. And, you know, I am very big into the but that's one of my biggest turn ons, which my wife, she's lost a lot of weight. But before she, last night when she had a big chest and so she was always mad that I'm a buck guy.

00:17:06:00 - 00:17:32:22

Chase

I'm not a chest guy. And so we were fooling around. I was paying a lot attention to her, but and then we both just looked at each other, and I think we both knew that we were thinking anal. And it was the first time I really had that type of thing that you just mentioned, where we both looked at each other, kind of gave it yes nod, and then all of a sudden she turned around and there was the anal, like there was no vocal that needed to happen, but it was just the look, a head nod.

00:17:33:00 - 00:17:36:12

Chase

We both kind of said yes with our eyes and our heads and boom.

00:17:36:14 - 00:17:52:09

Luna

Oh, those are the moments where I'm like, long term partnership for the win. I see the appeal. Like, that's beautiful, right? That's not something that could happen in the first few months, right? Or maybe for some people. But like that feels like years and years of trust built up that lead to that.

00:17:52:09 - 00:18:06:10

Chase

Just like we're on this. And even as we were dating, that was a thing that was usually a no no. Yeah. So ten years in, after lots of communication, when it could instead of what was once it never was a we just shook our head at the same time saying, okay, beautiful.

00:18:06:12 - 00:18:08:05

Luna

Okay. Are you monogamous?

00:18:08:07 - 00:18:09:03

Chase

Yes.

00:18:09:05 - 00:18:26:23

Luna

So you don't need to. Currently have conversations about safer sex with new partners. But did you have those conversations with your wife and or did it affect your shaming meter? I just want to talk about safer sex with people in general, no matter what kind of relationship style they're in, because at some point you maybe either did or didn't talk about it.

00:18:27:01 - 00:18:57:17

Chase

Yeah, she actually is the first female that I ever was with. I was one that definitely hid behind the computer chat rooms and things like that. So she was the first female. She also grew up homeschooled and very naive and sheltered. So it was actually I'm very proud of myself that I think she was willing, like we were talking about it, you know, those first couple months into dating and you're all over each other making out is the furthest you've gone, and now you want to take it further.

00:18:57:19 - 00:19:19:09

Chase

Sure. It comes off. And then the next time another article of clothing comes off until finally is it should we? I do remember her saying, do you have any protection? And I said, no. And that was on me because I think she was more than willing, well, we can do it today. I actually did have a I hate to blame her, but I have a sister that in college had a unwanted pregnancy.

00:19:19:12 - 00:19:31:20

Chase

I love my niece to death and she loves her as well. But of course I just knew that's going to be my luck. It only took her once and it was only going to take me once. So the safer sex I just was about ready. Ready for it.

00:19:31:22 - 00:19:35:01

Luna

Thank you for sharing that story. So you waited until you were.

00:19:35:03 - 00:19:50:21

Chase

Yep. So we waited until there actually was protection. The next time I made sure I had some for if or when that situation was going to happen, I never pushed it. But the next time I did pull up the condoms were ready and this time there was less of a discussion. And you know, we were more prepared.

00:19:51:02 - 00:20:06:06

Luna

Beautiful. Now I want to get into the details of your sex life and your sexual journey. So let's go back to the very beginning. I'd like you to take us through your sexual timeline. Let us know where it started. What was your first memory of sex?

00:20:06:08 - 00:20:25:13

Chase

Yeah, this one goes all the way back. And if you had a podcast on the first memories in those formative years, I mean, I would listen to that one weekly because it's usually the area that I love to hear because I can relate to. So many guests who started out just as young or younger, and also makes me feel a little bit better that, you know, I wasn't the only curious one.

00:20:25:13 - 00:20:27:02

Luna

So me too.

00:20:27:04 - 00:20:52:07

Chase

Can go back way to a couple instances that really shaped me. The first one, I went to a daycare slash preschool that was like down the street from my house in a basement of a lady who just take on, you know, an 8 or 10 kids a couple times a week. And actually remember specifically on this one that, you know, sitting on the carpet, a girl excused herself to go to the restroom that was in the preschool.

00:20:52:09 - 00:21:19:09

Chase

And for whatever reason, kids don't know any better. Just decided to take down her pants like a little bit too soon, like three steps before going into the restroom. And I just remember, you know, like, that was a knee jerk reaction to like, get up, sit taller and see. And I was able to, you know, see her backside and go, oh, wow, I just saw her butt, you know, and I didn't think a whole, you know, wasn't necessarily sexually excited at that age, but it was still exciting to see, like I got to see her.

00:21:19:09 - 00:21:20:14

Chase

But that was kind of cool.

00:21:20:19 - 00:21:21:03

Luna

The new.

00:21:21:03 - 00:21:41:09

Chase

Thing. Yeah, it was just a memory that I always remember about that one. So that kind of was one of the first ones I can remember. The other one being was the first house that I lived in, and it was till about age seven, our family room, if you will, where we were gathered and watched. TV was in the basement where there was hard linoleum floor.

00:21:41:11 - 00:22:00:13

Chase

I often would watch TV, you know, laying face down my chin, resting on my palms, you know. And then you don't realize that, like, the pelvic area is pressing against the floor. And as you kind of shift your weight around, eventually, you know, something would happen and, you know, you didn't think anything of it, but it just became kind of a habit.

00:22:00:15 - 00:22:18:16

Chase

And so I, you know, now that it was masturbating, I didn't know what it was that I was doing. But I know that more often than not, when I watch TV down there, that's usually what I did. And I do remember thinking that, you know, sometimes it took like 10s and sometimes it was like 2.5 minutes before the ending result would happen.

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:31:15

Chase

But then I'd just go back to watching television and and so that was a normal occurrence. And now thinking back as an adult, I can know that, yeah, I was masturbating at like 5 or 6 years old at that time.

00:22:31:17 - 00:22:36:18

Luna

Yeah. But that young there would be no ejaculate coming out. So you were just having like, little kid orgasms?

00:22:36:20 - 00:23:04:17

Chase

Yeah, just little kid orgasms and not knowing anything better. I feel like thinking back, I was pretty subtle and discreet. Even though I didn't know that it was wrong until we moved into a different house at age eight. And now as an adult, I remember thinking that my sister was quite often on the corner of the couch. And this is where my parents, with no sex talk, never said anything.

00:23:04:17 - 00:23:27:04

Chase

Now that I think back, I know nothing was ever said and that one was a lot more wide open right out there. I didn't know what she was doing. Thinking back now, obviously she was doing the same thing, but there was an instance where I don't even know why we were even having this conversation, but I remember her telling me that mom and Dad know what you're doing because your face is going to be red afterwards.

00:23:27:06 - 00:23:50:14

Chase

And that just stuck with me. Like, I'm going to have a like, my face is going to be flushed or blushed or red or and they're going to know what you were doing, and she didn't give a name to it or what it was, but that was the time where I took it from like that common room, watching TV, laying on my stomach to my bedroom behind the doors and listening for footsteps of anybody was coming up the stairs to my room.

00:23:50:14 - 00:23:55:15

Chase

I could jump up and start playing with toys and not reveal that, you know, humping the ground, if you will.

00:23:55:20 - 00:24:09:23

Luna

Yeah, yeah. So when did you start to figure out what was your body like and when was there ever any information in school that, like, these feelings you were experiencing were sex? Like, when did those understandings start to come together for you?

00:24:10:01 - 00:24:30:15

Chase

So kind of what came next was when I moved into this new house, when I was eight, there was a boy across the street and one house over just about a year younger than myself. I only hung out with this kid usually in the summers, because during the school years since we were in different ages of school, we had our own friends.

00:24:30:15 - 00:24:57:22

Chase

But in the summer, those friends that we had in school were not living in our neighborhood. So he and I would tend to play, you know, front yard baseball or front yard basketball. But there were also those times that we would be in a backyard or at a park or something, and the Truth or Dare games would come out and the dads would be the silly dares to, you know, take down your pants and go run and touch that tree, or go spin around three times with your pants off.

00:24:57:22 - 00:25:25:05

Chase

And then they would eventually move to touch mine for five seconds. And then you would say, you. That's the grossest thing, and pretend that it wasn't something you wanted to be doing. But obviously the very next day it would be something just as similar. And so it was kind of there that it moved from just doing something alone in my room to actually doing something with somebody, and it just happened to be a neighbor kid next door.

00:25:25:07 - 00:25:47:06

Chase

And I think we knew it should be hidden because we were obviously always like behind a hill, at a park or in a backyard or in a shed, and generally happened only for like 2 or 3 summers. This is around age 8 to 10 years old, but during the school year it usually wasn't a common occurrence. And one of those summers a park was built.

00:25:47:06 - 00:26:03:14

Chase

That's the park that I was referring to. And it was kind of weird that playground was set up so well that the game, you know, the house game the kids play was very common, where the, you know, the the top of the park, where the tubes slide, that could be a bedroom and underneath could be a basement. And kids would play that all day long.

00:26:03:14 - 00:26:22:12

Chase

And so he and I actually started playing house. But when nobody was at the park, one of us could pretend to be the female in the relationship. And you could play that, you know, we'd eventually get together and then we could go into the tube slide and kind of experiment as male and female, even though we're both males, male and female.

00:26:22:12 - 00:26:40:00

Chase

And it didn't have to be truth or dare anymore, but it could be kind of lost in this fantasy world of playing house. Yeah. And only doing, you know, as much as what you see on TV. Then you go to bed and you chase in, dad, and you kind of just rub each other's bodies on each other. And.

00:26:40:01 - 00:26:51:21

Chase

And so then it became like a thing where we're mad if we're going to the park and there's other kids there, like, we're trying to be annoying just so those kids would go home so that we could play that game. I think that's what we called it was that game. That game.

00:26:51:23 - 00:26:56:18

Luna

Wow. That's so interesting. Okay. Yeah. What did that lead to next?

00:26:56:20 - 00:27:17:15

Chase

Around the same time I think would have been a great opportunity for my parents to have that conversation is they actually did have like a puberty book that I had discovered in my house, like in the stack and on the bookshelf. That was kind of hidden. And I remember reading that thing and it kind of told you everything as a male or female, that you were going to start experiencing around that time.

00:27:17:17 - 00:27:42:18

Chase

And I don't know why I felt that maybe it was something I shouldn't be reading. So I hid the fact that I read it instead of actually taking it to my parents and saying, you know, like, is this all true or something? But I kind of before the school age, I think it's sixth grade for boys in my area where you kind of have the maturation program where it tells you some of those changes, like I read it before that because I had access to that book and I kind of knew what was going to be happening.

00:27:42:20 - 00:28:04:12

Chase

So that's kind of where I got the self learned sex talk. But then there was another instance with that boy that kind of shaped a few other things. So I mentioned it was 2 or 3 summers where we would do some of those things. Yeah. Well, between the second and the third summer, being that I was just a year older than him, I think I hit around age 11 or 12.

00:28:04:14 - 00:28:20:17

Chase

I went through some of those changes before he did so. Down below, the teen has got a little bit bigger, got a little bit more pubic hair. So looking a little more man, a little less boy. And so that very last time we were at the park, and I think there is going to be a truth or dare or something.

00:28:20:17 - 00:28:44:04

Chase

And it came out his eyes, I just remember went huge and kind of disgusted looking because, you know, it came out, it was already erect. It was 3 or 4in bigger than his it because he had gone through those changes yet, and it was a pretty quick right away. I don't want to do this anymore. He went home and we pretty much never spoke again.

00:28:44:06 - 00:28:48:16

Luna

What did that do to your little psyche heart experience?

00:28:48:21 - 00:29:04:11

Chase

I mean, if there was ever a time which I definitely wanted to, but I, you know, then it would have been admitting to my parents what was going on. But I wanted to, like, go to my mom and do like, I felt like a monster, you know, like something was wrong with me. Even though I had read this book, you know, I was kind of prepared for it.

00:29:04:13 - 00:29:20:14

Chase

I almost felt like. And I think most men actually want it to be big and huge. But for me, it's like, I don't want this anymore. That's it just made somebody run away screaming and made me feel like a monster. I want it to go back. I want to go back to where I was before my body went through this change.

00:29:20:16 - 00:29:30:02

Luna

Yeah. So what were your next steps? Did that make it harder to talk to new people or have crushes on people, or even want to reach out to people? Oh not really.

00:29:30:02 - 00:29:46:07

Chase

I mean, it was kind of something that I missed, you know, because it was something that I did like every summer for like three straight summers. And so it kind of ended up becoming more of a boring summer because I didn't have someone to hang out with beyond those type of things that we were doing. We also did, you know, sports and video games.

00:29:46:09 - 00:30:09:12

Chase

And so I didn't have that neighborhood friend that summer anymore. But I still went to school the next year and had crushes in school and more kids moved into the neighborhood and got more friends, so I was able to recover from it. But I remember that was definitely like a monumental time that very much could have been solved by having those talks with, you know, a tough shake your early on.

00:30:09:14 - 00:30:20:17

Luna

Yeah, absolutely. Were your crushes mostly on females or were there also boys in the mix then. Like did that experience with that neighbor boy cause you to identify as anything different, or was that even on your radar at that point?

00:30:20:18 - 00:30:40:10

Chase

It's not. I think it was more just that comfort situation. And so there was still always like, I had that one girl in every class that was my crush that year. And so it was still very much I'm staring at females. I've never staring at boys, really, and thinking he's cute or he's, you know, but it's the girls in my classes that are that way.

00:30:40:12 - 00:30:47:12

Luna

Okay. Okay. So what were your next explorations like with a solo? With more partners? What happened next?

00:30:47:13 - 00:31:12:06

Chase

Yeah. So I'm still at this point I haven't graduated to the actual stroking for masturbation. I've still just very much stuck with, like, the floor or or I learned later on in bed to use the palm of my hand to press things because the bed was just too soft. It needed to be more of a firm situation. So I didn't know that that wasn't necessarily the norm for a male.

00:31:12:08 - 00:31:35:11

Chase

At that point. I got into junior high and a new friend moved into the basement of his uncle's house down the street. His dad, I think, was a pilot, and so he was gone most weekends. And so we would hang out and their uncle had a hot tub, and we'd sit in the hot tub and just through casual conversations, I think at this point, because of that one book, I knew that it was called masturbation.

00:31:35:13 - 00:31:58:05

Chase

And so when that got brought up, I think I remember the way I did it by humping the hand or the floor as I got into that puberty stage. It actually didn't work. If I was hard, it had to be a soft penis. So because a hard penis, you know, so erect it would just bend it and and so I remember making that comment to him that, you know, it hurts when you're hard, though.

00:31:58:07 - 00:32:04:04

Chase

And he goes, you're supposed to be. And so I remember being so confused, like, what does he mean you're supposed to be?

00:32:04:06 - 00:32:09:07

Luna

That's a great question, though. That is a great question because that's an assumption. Most people just have the assumptions.

00:32:09:12 - 00:32:29:10

Chase

And so yeah, I just kind of moved on at that point as we're sitting in the hot tub. But it was like a sleepover or two later with this same boy that we did the channel browsing through the HBO channels at one in the morning at a sleepover, discover the softcore porn you mostly just see boobs and butts and things like that.

00:32:29:10 - 00:32:57:18

Chase

But it was at that point we found that and the sleepovers from there became a every Friday and Saturday experience, if we could, because it was some newly discovered content. And it was from there that I finally discovered what it was that I was doing wrong, because he offered. At first he offered a blanket to put over our laps as we watched this, and I could see this motion underneath his blanket, but still didn't quite know what he was doing.

00:32:57:18 - 00:33:18:05

Chase

And I'm just trying to move my hands underneath the blanket as well. But I had no idea what's going on. And so I think he finally got that sense that I didn't know what was going on after the first few minutes that he removed the blanket, and I finally just showed me what it was he was doing and said, just try it like this.

00:33:18:07 - 00:33:40:01

Chase

I remember that first time I actually wasn't able to have an orgasm. It took like the next night or two later, I just decided I'm no longer going to do it the old way. I'm going to try it like he was doing it, and I think it took me like in bed as everyone else is asleep, like 40 or 45 minutes to have a stroking orgasm.

00:33:40:03 - 00:33:41:06

Chase

Okay.

00:33:41:08 - 00:33:59:12

Luna

Well, first I want to say thank you for sharing all the details of your confusion because I feel like these are the types of details that are in my head where I'm like, why I'm here? Okay, okay. Second, I think it's also just so interesting to hear the early creativity. I think I love hearing the creative ways that people discover their bodies, and then kind of what it leads to.

00:33:59:13 - 00:34:05:20

Luna

Did he teach you to stroke? What, like what hand position to be teaching a stroke in? And is that still how you stroke yourself today?

00:34:05:22 - 00:34:11:14

Chase

Oh, yeah. It was, you know, just the hand up like that circle with the thumb and the the finger.

00:34:11:18 - 00:34:15:04

Luna

Is a circle toward you or away from you, like, is it overhand or away.

00:34:15:04 - 00:34:15:13

Chase

From you.

00:34:15:18 - 00:34:16:08

Luna

Away from being.

00:34:16:13 - 00:34:36:00

Chase

Away from you and staying over the tip. Don't go into, you know, you don't go too far down the base. But really that sensitivity is just going up and over the tip, just staying right around that tip area. And so from then, I think I was excited to go the next time and show him that I was able to do it the same way.

00:34:36:00 - 00:35:05:10

Chase

And so then silly boys, you know, it got to the point where it was, you know, how far can you shoot yours? And so we'd have those contests, you know, who could shoot at the furthest stand. And so those were pretty fun sleepovers. It was kind of interesting. One of the things I remember about that the most, though, is he was definitely the type that as soon as he got off, he kind of had this feeling of like shame and discussed it with like take over his body and like he would be so quick to clean up and get dressed.

00:35:05:10 - 00:35:20:10

Chase

And then at that point it was like, are you done? Are you done? Like, if I was more like an edgy type mood or because I was still, like very much curious about the porn that I didn't have access to at my own house. I had to go to his uncle's house to watch it, so who knows when the next time was going to be.

00:35:20:10 - 00:35:36:16

Chase

So I wanted to like, soak it up totally. But like as soon as he got off, he was like, done, like, that's it. You disgusting. He like, actually hate it. I could tell he was disgusted by his own cum. And this was correct. Dress and clean. It was very interesting to remember that.

00:35:36:18 - 00:35:44:09

Luna

Oh, that is such an interesting contrast. Did that cause you any feelings of shame, or were you just able to kind of keep it separate from yourself?

00:35:44:11 - 00:35:57:08

Chase

Yeah, I think it was more just disappointment. Like, I guess I got to hurry and finish my business too, because otherwise I'm being real. Just making him sit there and he's no longer in any state of arousal. And so it's more just him waiting.

00:35:57:10 - 00:36:02:00

Luna

So you were just masturbation buddies. What came next?

00:36:02:02 - 00:36:20:18

Chase

So I think there was actually one instance where I remember he said, like in the middle of one of the porn, and then it did graduate to more hardcore porn. I think we were able to discover more than just the softcore stuff. But at one point he did say my name as we were stroking and I said, yep.

00:36:20:18 - 00:36:37:12

Chase

And then he said, never mind. And I remember thinking, oh, I think he was going to ask, like maybe for a blowjob or something. And I think I was so turned on in that moment that I would have, but I didn't dare just, you know, force the issue and say, tell me, you know, that. Yeah, yeah, that was as far as it took with him.

00:36:37:12 - 00:36:59:17

Chase

But I think that was just enough to like, keep that curiosity thinking. And so it was from there that I moved at home into the virtual world, like chat rooms. And I think at the time it was Yahoo had pool, you could play virtual pool and that had a chat room feature. So if my parents were to come down, they just thought I was playing pool.

00:36:59:18 - 00:37:23:17

Chase

They didn't know that I was actually chatting with strangers and learning all that chat lingo, that ASL age, sex location which I never set my correct age. I always said I was older, sometimes I said I was female, I always gave myself a more populated location like California or New York, and it was from there that I started talking with, you know, males and females both, and we move into some chat rooms.

00:37:23:18 - 00:37:52:08

Chase

And so because I was curious, I actually around the age of 16, got into a local chat room for my area and found a gay male at a neighboring high school and thought, okay, I'm going to go meet him up to this point, like I'm still at school very much. Always just my eyes are on females. I'm not looking at males as far as like being sexually aroused, but I've only messed around with two different guys at this point, and that's what's comfortable.

00:37:52:08 - 00:38:13:08

Chase

And so I think because of that one question, when he said my name, I said why? And he didn't ask. And maybe that sparked some curiosity. So I decided to meet this person, which kills me now because online meeting is a lot more acceptable. And back then I would have probably got in trouble for doing that. But, you know, I got a vehicle.

00:38:13:09 - 00:38:22:04

Chase

I'm telling my mom, I'm going to go get a haircut. And instead I'm driving over to this story at a neighboring high school to fool around. So I get to his house.

00:38:22:04 - 00:38:23:08

Luna

Okay? Okay. He really was a boy.

00:38:23:09 - 00:38:43:15

Chase

And he really, really was. I got there and disappointingly enough, when I got there, everything about the situation was just not a turn on to me. I think I was so nervous that I was like shaking. I could barely talk full sentences without my voice sounding like I was shivering. We tried to kiss for a second and that just didn't feel right and I couldn't do it.

00:38:43:15 - 00:39:00:06

Chase

We took him out and I just couldn't get hard at all. He was pretty hard instantly and I couldn't just tell myself to play with it. We tried to go to porn, but he put on gay porn, which to that point wasn't something that I watched, so that didn't turn me on. So it really was like a 8 to 10 minute encounter.

00:39:00:06 - 00:39:05:18

Chase

And I said, well, sorry. Well, maybe try again sometime and I left.

00:39:05:20 - 00:39:09:18

Luna

That's a nervous system overload of newness. It's a lot of new.

00:39:09:18 - 00:39:10:11

Chase

Oh yeah.

00:39:10:13 - 00:39:19:04

Luna

Good for you for leaving when it wasn't the right thing for you. You. It sounds like you explored as much as you could. And it also sounds like you were just like, okay, never mind. Abort mission.

00:39:19:06 - 00:39:40:10

Chase

And he was very cool because we stayed chat buddies for 2 or 3 years after that. Never did meet again. But okay, I always chatted for like 2 or 3 years after that, so it was not a bad thing. It just wasn't right. It just didn't want to happen. And so it was at that point that I thought those last two experiences were more of a comfort level thing, maybe.

00:39:40:12 - 00:40:01:09

Chase

And so I never once considered gay or bisexual. I just thought maybe it was just the situation. And so the next couple years I was 16, the next couple of years was really all virtual. I played baseball growing up. I got hooked on the money that getting a job in the food industry, as you know, teens do.

00:40:01:15 - 00:40:23:20

Chase

Yeah. And my CD collection grew and I ended up working my weekends away for my sophomore and junior year of high school. So by the time I became a senior, I was not really in any of the groups of people to hang out with. So I was kind of one of those online people. I had many different people that I'd been talking to for months or years online.

00:40:23:22 - 00:40:45:02

Chase

As a 17 year old, I was talking with a 49 year old. I remember, and talking about sex and probably led her on quite a bit because I got this 49 year old basically to say, as soon as you're 18, yeah, we can do it. And she was local. I never did pull the trigger on that one, but I had a 49 year old that I talked to for years.

00:40:45:04 - 00:40:51:03

Luna

Wow. Was it sort of a mentorship type of talking? Like, did you ask sex questions or what was that conversation like?

00:40:51:05 - 00:40:56:03

Chase

Oh, it was definitely talking about kink fetishes, all those type of things.

00:40:56:05 - 00:41:01:04

Luna

Okay. What did you learn about yourself through those chat rooms that we don't know yet?

00:41:01:06 - 00:41:22:14

Chase

So I think it was there. I definitely learned that I'm different from a lot of other males who like a lot of other males, loved just that talk of like what a female is doing, what is she wearing, and what do you like to do? You know, and they get off on that conversation. But that wasn't me. I wasn't I didn't want them to tell me those dirty details.

00:41:22:14 - 00:41:42:10

Chase

I wanted to hear the formative years, things that I've just told you. Like how did you learn or were you ever told not to? When was your first time, you know, was it the stuffed bear? Was it the couch corner? Was it a toy? Have you ever watched porn? You know, I, I was always very curious about that type of talk and hearing, I think maybe just helped me relate.

00:41:42:10 - 00:41:48:23

Chase

If other people learned the same way that I learned, that was the type of conversation I was in those chat rooms for. Totally.

00:41:49:01 - 00:42:06:10

Luna

I also would propose a noodle on that of like for me. I guess I like talking and asking those questions because it helps me find the other curious people. And when I find other people that are kind of like a similar level of curiosity, then we do have kind of values and connection and then hopefully eventually like sexual connection in common.

00:42:06:10 - 00:42:09:12

Luna

So that's kind of a cool unconscious filtration system.

00:42:09:18 - 00:42:30:10

Chase

I remember thinking to as I would make, conversations with males, even, I wanted to hear the same things from the male side, but I got to feel what it's like probably to be a female who just gets those unsolicited dick pics all the time. Okay? Because as I'm trying to have a good, mature conversation with a bell, it was always they wanted to see mine, or they wanted me to show me theirs.

00:42:30:10 - 00:42:36:00

Chase

And like, come on, that's maybe we can get there. But that's not where I want to start.

00:42:36:02 - 00:42:45:07

Luna

Do you remember how you'd respond to those things? Like, as a dude who's experiencing something that I've experienced a lot, would you like exit out or would you just be like, no thank you, or because you didn't have or do you or would you go find like.

00:42:45:07 - 00:43:02:18

Chase

Boob and pussy pics to send me? Oh, and I'll usually it was I don't have it. And like it was easy to say I just don't have. I'm sorry cell phones weren't so good back then. It was like webcams and digital camera photo you've uploaded to your computer. So I just said I don't have one. Sorry. Wow.

00:43:02:20 - 00:43:10:18

Luna

Okay, so when did you start exploring beyond your own physical body again? Or like outside of chat rooms, what kind of happened next?

00:43:10:20 - 00:43:32:11

Chase

So I moved out of the food industry, the fast food industry for my job and into retail, kind of moved up a little bit and started working at retail. And it was there that all the cashiers at this retail store were female cashiers at a local college city. So I was able to start, you know, talking to a lot more females.

00:43:32:11 - 00:43:57:15

Chase

And that was actually where I met my wife. She was a cashier, and I started out as a cart pusher and moved into various departments inside the building, and eventually we started dating there actually, though, around that same time, well, just before we started dating, there was one time that I decided to get on Craigslist and look for a male male encounter.

00:43:57:17 - 00:44:19:23

Chase

I answered a male male ad locally and the picture on the ad was just a hard, erect penis. And so I answered that. And what I didn't realize is when it said it to him because you email from Craigslist. But when it sent it to him, it gave my first and last name of my email that was tied to my email.

00:44:20:01 - 00:44:28:13

Chase

And then he responded back with his email and it was actually an associate that work at the retail store I was working at.

00:44:28:15 - 00:44:31:21

Luna

Did you recognize each other? I mean, you recognize him? Did he recognize you?

00:44:32:03 - 00:44:50:14

Chase

I recognized him, and the name he, I think, recognized the name. So then I got out of there really fast and went, oh, and I never went back and checked that email, deleted it. Okay. The next time I worked, he said, what's your email? And I came up with a completely different email because I knew what he was getting at.

00:44:50:16 - 00:45:06:14

Chase

He left it at that. He didn't order anything. Okay. But that was one of the scariest thing. Like, oh boy, because he was definitely an out gay man. But I was like, this ladies man who always talked about the hot associates that were coming into the store. Did you see that chick that came into the store with all the other guys?

00:45:06:14 - 00:45:15:12

Chase

So I definitely was always one of those males that was, did you see her? Did you see that girl or that, you know, so you would have some power over me?

00:45:15:16 - 00:45:32:17

Luna

Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask the consequence for you at the time would have been shaming. So you weren't out. You weren't. You know, you were even out to yourself like it was. It still sounds like it was just this curiosity around, like, almost like a private realm of curiosity. Like what would you say the fear at the time was if he had known.

00:45:32:19 - 00:45:48:12

Chase

It wasn't as accepted to be like out for males back then, but I didn't consider it myself either. I think for me, any kind of, you know, it was comfort level in the past, but it was also just a means to get off with somebody. The excitement of getting off with somebody. But I still didn't have like that.

00:45:48:12 - 00:45:59:07

Chase

I look at a guy and think, he's so hot, I want a relationship. I want to hold hands. I want intimacy type things. It was think more. Just wanting that like means to get off with somebody, I guess. Yeah.

00:45:59:09 - 00:46:05:19

Luna

Okay, so that happened. And then you started dating your now wife. Was there anything in between?

00:46:05:21 - 00:46:14:18

Chase

Nothing in between. So I start dating her and, you know, it took three dates before we kissed and made out. That's as far as it went. She grew up very religious as well.

00:46:14:18 - 00:46:19:14

Luna

So you haven't mentioned religion explicitly. Are you religious? Did you grow up religious? I mean, I.

00:46:19:14 - 00:46:39:16

Chase

Grew up Catholic and went to church most Sundays, but nothing was really preached as far as what my parents like, what the Catholic Church preaches on sex before marriage and things like that was more just we went because all my family members, white aunts, uncles, grandparents, you just you went out and I daydreamed and never listened. But she was Mormon, okay.

00:46:39:16 - 00:47:06:00

Chase

And definitely the word's a lot more strict. You know, your bishop, which could be your neighbor, which could be your best friend's dad, which could be your your own dad. They're interviewing these kids, and they're making sure that they aren't touching themselves or doing things with opposite gender partners when they have their bishop interviews. And they definitely know sex before marriage, you know, horizontal laying with the partner, you know, a lot of strict things.

00:47:06:00 - 00:47:26:03

Chase

And like the ideal thing as a mormon to get married in one of the Mormon temples, right? You have to be absolutely pure to be married in one of the Mormon temples. So with her, initially, the furthest we could ever do was kissing. Okay. For like a good 3 or 4 months, that's all. I was just kissing and it wasn't going further.

00:47:26:03 - 00:47:52:09

Chase

But you know, eventually you get with somebody long enough and hormones are going to take over. You're going to want to take things further. And for her, it was always a struggle with if we took it too far one day, she might not talk to me for a good couple days, the next little bit, because she felt so guilty because of that religious background, and it was almost like we'd have to have these like hour long talks, like, how are we going to be able to keep going if we keep doing that?

00:47:52:09 - 00:48:04:13

Chase

I don't want to feel this way. And technically she should be going to her bishop and telling him that she went too far and hear what he has to say as far as what she needs to do to be able to repent from doing those things.

00:48:04:15 - 00:48:06:04

Luna

How did that affect you?

00:48:06:06 - 00:48:28:00

Chase

Oh, that was always a struggle. I think I've told her now, which I didn't tell her at the time, but I told her now. I'd say it got to a point where I had to masturbate before we would go on a date, because then that would kind of relieve that sexual tension, and then I wouldn't be tempted to, like, get you going, because I think I needed to be the strong one, because if we got you going, then you were okay.

00:48:28:00 - 00:48:32:09

Chase

You were willing. But then the next day you'd be so mad and guilty and yeah.

00:48:32:11 - 00:48:52:00

Luna

Wow. I want to just focus on that for a second and say how beautiful I think that is. Just as a person who has received pressure from partners, where I've asserted a boundary and asked for their support and keeping that boundary and just had to, like kind of work against it and myself. And so I think it's awesome that you did that.

00:48:52:02 - 00:49:00:13

Luna

Even if it meant that you weren't getting exactly what you wanted. And, you know, I think that's just like a beautiful thing we should honor. So what unfolded from there for you guys?

00:49:00:15 - 00:49:27:07

Chase

So we both ended up moving out of our parents houses. And so that's kind of made some of that fooling around a little bit easier, but harder to, you know, have those boundaries of not taking it too far. But the fact that I was no longer living my parents house and there was nothing else to hide. That's probably about the time I definitely ruined a computer with porn and definitely getting into the chat rooms again.

00:49:27:12 - 00:49:52:17

Chase

So I guess you can call it like virtual chat. I wasn't meeting anybody, but I was definitely getting off on conversation with others. Definitely sexual frustration, though, because, you know, you and I were getting hot and heavy, but only to a point. Then it would. I'd have to just put it away and go home, and then I would take care of it with, you know, porn and chat rooms and things like that, and think it was two years in that we finally had penetration sex.

00:49:52:17 - 00:50:10:03

Chase

So we made it that far with nothing beyond kissing and maybe, you know, groping, even shirts didn't come off and things like that. So very, very impressive. I think we've told my in-laws that, like, they were pretty impressed that we went that far when they probably assumed that we didn't do it at all before we got married.

00:50:10:05 - 00:50:18:18

Luna

I love that she told her mom I love it. She told did you told your Mormon in-laws? I love that, wouldn't they? Like she just told her, were you there together?

00:50:18:20 - 00:50:31:17

Chase

It was probably about a year ago. So we've been married like nine years, she told her. I think it was like last year. It's like, well, I trusted you guys. It's kind of more of a joke at that point because it was nine years in and she, I've got a good relationship with them, was like, I can't believe that.

00:50:31:17 - 00:50:37:08

Chase

And the fact that it was in her house, too, while they were sleeping, it was kind of funny as well, but.

00:50:37:10 - 00:50:41:18

Luna

Okay, so take us there, give us some details of what's in there.

00:50:41:20 - 00:50:57:06

Chase

Yeah. So we moved out. But I think one of the reasons why we moved back to our parents house was we got to that point where we knew we were probably going to get married at some point, so we needed to move back home, save some money so we can, you know, either move into a house when we get married or be able to afford an apartment.

00:50:57:06 - 00:51:17:14

Chase

I needed to save up for a ring. Yeah. And we were still going to college, so we both moved back home. And so I would go over on the Saturday night, we'd watch a movie, maybe even sometimes with her parents. We'd watch a movie, they'd go to bed. And then there was like an upstairs living room. So not too risky where some fooling around could happen.

00:51:17:16 - 00:51:40:23

Chase

And we had that typical very first time. Just the tip for, you know, split second and then that's it. And that's all we did that night. I remember thinking with that one, like, Holy crap, I could have gotten off with just one more push. Yeah, just that tip was way more sensitivity than any time, you know, and I thought I was a master with my hand that I was going to be able to go the very first time I ever had sex.

00:51:40:23 - 00:51:51:18

Chase

I was going be able to go for 30 or 45 minutes. Whoa. But when you stick it in to a vagina for the first time, I was like, ooh, that was going to be two seconds. Yeah.

00:51:51:20 - 00:51:55:02

Luna

Okay. So then the next time it was more than just the tip.

00:51:55:04 - 00:52:16:01

Chase

So yeah, then it just carries from there. The next time it was a little bit more. And then I think we really was only about 3 or 4 occasions all with condoms and then the guilt, you know, the before you kind of would stick out. And funny enough, because of her sheltered home school, she had never masturbated, she'd never had an orgasm.

00:52:16:07 - 00:52:41:00

Chase

And during all those times of fooling around, she had one. And that was when we were getting really hot and heavy, and we were doing a lot of like, dry humping, a lot of rubbing our bodies together. And I kind of heard like a squeal out of her. And she started rubbing really hard a little bit harder. And then she just said something like that felt really good for a second, and I because I knew that guilt would have taken over.

00:52:41:00 - 00:52:52:20

Chase

I didn't tell her because you just had an orgasm. Oh, okay. Because I think if she knew that, she would have had one of those. I don't talk to him for two days. I might need to go talk to my bishop type battle with herself.

00:52:52:20 - 00:52:58:06

Luna

Oh, did she thought orgasms were bad. Like, not just touching myself, but yeah, that would.

00:52:58:08 - 00:53:09:05

Chase

Yeah. So I didn't tell her that for a good couple months, that that's probably what she had. And so that we wouldn't have to have like that two days where she doesn't talk to me because she feel so guilty.

00:53:09:10 - 00:53:10:17

Luna

Oh, yeah.

00:53:10:19 - 00:53:31:02

Chase

So then no more penetration to like 3 or 4 times. We kind of just dipped our feet in the water seeing what it was like. But we knew we were going to get married. And I think it was kind of just that mutual understanding. I was going to respect her if she wanted to. She said, I want to be good even though I'm not Mormon and we can't get married in the temple, I still want to be good until we get married.

00:53:31:02 - 00:53:50:14

Chase

I want to be a good person. And so that's what they made her believe she needed to do. And I was respectful of it. But that didn't stop us from spending every, you know, maybe once a month, spending 80 to $100 on a hotel room, like was usually up the street from our houses and just to do, like, naked kissing.

00:53:50:17 - 00:54:00:08

Luna

Yeah. I mean, that's such beautiful intimacy. And for me, that physical stuff gets to a lot of the closeness, even if it's not penetrative sex or anything like that. It's beautiful.

00:54:00:10 - 00:54:16:17

Chase

So that I think that was kind of the first instance where we realized, like, sex isn't all about penetration. If we look back because we probably spent way too much money on hotel rooms for about a year, and we wouldn't even spend the night because our parents were pretty strict and they like, where are you? So we basically get a hotel room for like three hours.

00:54:16:19 - 00:54:34:06

Luna

Right? Oh my gosh. But painful rape because you got it. Okay. I would love to hear a little bit more about what you love about hearing formative details. And also if you and your wife have shared details like that, or if you did when you were getting to know her, even though you were both still very young.

00:54:34:08 - 00:54:55:20

Chase

Yeah. So that leads into a good couple of things. So for me, I think that kind of as we mentioned in the intro, why I'm so I have kind of a masturbation fetish is because I love to hear like how people, if they do it. I think if I'm looking at strangers in a very boring meeting at work, I'm thinking about who masturbates and how often and how they learned.

00:54:55:22 - 00:55:17:00

Chase

It's kind of just one of the things that excites me. And so that's what I like to hear about the formative years. And so it was something I had to eventually tell her. And it was kind of the bisexual aspect when I kind of came to terms with it, with myself. And when I came out to her, that's kind of when all the secrets of my past, we came out there and this was five years into marriage.

00:55:17:02 - 00:55:41:22

Chase

So this is around the, I want to say, 2016 Olympics. And I had joked like a few months before that she had just asked her ridiculous question, like, what would you have done if I had a penis the first time you took down my pants? And I just joked, you know, ridiculous question, I'll do a ridiculous answer. And I said, probably put it in my mouth.

00:55:42:00 - 00:56:00:03

Chase

And that, you know, made her laugh and said, you girls. And then but at the same time, she didn't know that that had actually had happened before. Yeah. And so at that point I decided to joke, but like, what if I was bisexual? I didn't really like the answer she gave. Like, she didn't like say, no, that's not all right.

00:56:00:05 - 00:56:21:22

Chase

Yeah. And so it kind of bugged me for like two months that when the Olympics came around, I think we were watching track and field at the time, and they had those tight spandex running outfits. I decided to joke again and say, you look at those male butts. And she said, no, you can't be bisexual. Remember? And so it was about that time I just decided to come out and say, you know, I think I am.

00:56:22:00 - 00:56:42:12

Chase

Wow. And so it was probably like a two day conversation at that point where I kind of told her from the kid next door, you know, the cross the street kid and all those times, the truth or dare to the porn with the friend and all those instances it, you know, shocked her because it was definitely a culture shock.

00:56:42:12 - 00:56:56:06

Chase

That's something that she never experienced, didn't think was happening. That wasn't, you know, you only hear the horror stories of why parents don't let their kids have sleepovers anymore. And I was the living proof of why she heard those things. So.

00:56:56:08 - 00:57:10:21

Luna

Oh, wow. How was that for you? Like, it sounds like obviously you're still together now, but it sounds like it was a big decision inside of you. Or was it a decision to tell her, or was it just something that, like, needed to happen at that point.

00:57:10:23 - 00:57:27:18

Chase

I always thought I was going to go to the grave. So the fact that I did it, I'm definitely proud of myself and it benefited us in the end. It was two days of conversation. She really she asked her questions, but then she got over it. And actually I think it benefited us in the bedroom. I think it just allowed us to open up.

00:57:27:18 - 00:57:46:05

Chase

And I don't know if she got this like, well, what what can I do if I don't have a penis? If I'm not a male, what can I do to help satisfy other cravings so that he won't ever seek that side? And so that led to the first we started out, which she still hooked on was the male male graphic novels.

00:57:46:05 - 00:58:20:08

Chase

Like, I brought that up and started reading some of those, and we'd read them and we talked about how hot they were. And then, you know, five years later, she still reads the crap out of those things. And then I moved into like the podcasts and started hearing more about, you know, bisexuals and really, like, from the education side of sexuality, hearing about sexuality as a pain through the podcast, through all the sex therapists that have podcasts and hearing those type of things kind of helped validate my thinking to then go back and think, was it just a comfort level back then?

00:58:20:08 - 00:58:39:06

Chase

Or, you know, I probably was there's, you know, when I was playing baseball as a kid and I saw one of my teammates that had a nice bar as a catcher, I remember thinking that actually he was a catcher and he had a nice. But I remember thinking that. So actually, you know what my mind is starting to think all these things, and it's almost like it's allowing me to say those things were okay.

00:58:39:07 - 00:58:40:13

Luna

I can really relate to that.

00:58:40:15 - 00:59:03:15

Chase

I can have those conversations with her, too, like there was this other instance that I'm actually kind of remembering. I work at a gym. When we first got married as a second job, and one of the tasks was to go to the locker rooms and every two hours and see if the trash is needed to be emptied, if it was clean, and then you had to sign the checklist that you clean the bathroom or the locker rooms.

00:59:03:15 - 00:59:21:05

Chase

And I found myself volunteering to do the male locker and check a lot more often than I should have, because the nudity is so open and free in there. And I thought, you know what? I actually really was? I was going in there and I was looking for naked men, and it wasn't something was something I hid to myself until we're having this conversation, me and her then.

00:59:21:05 - 00:59:25:02

Chase

Yeah, I was I did do that. Wow. Okay.

00:59:25:04 - 00:59:36:11

Luna

I love that you're able to just be open. Now, will you tell us a little bit about the mutual masturbation that you do together, like what you enjoy? And I would love to hear also about how you enjoy company.

00:59:36:12 - 00:59:54:05

Chase

Yeah. So that was again, we got married and her first orgasm was oral. She still has yet to orgasm penetration wise, which you know, that doesn't always happen. Not every female can. But it took maybe like a year for her to actually start using her hand to masturbate like she just never grew up knowing how to do it.

00:59:54:05 - 01:00:15:11

Chase

And so it took a while to finally learn. But now that she does, she doesn't quite often. So I think it was that about that five years in and we're reading those books, we're talking about, you know, like I'm asking her questions like, does it make you have that feeling down there that you need to touch yourself? And she would admit, yes, it does.

01:00:15:12 - 01:00:32:09

Chase

And so that's where I kept encouraging her to use those emotions. Use those feelings and go for it. And so then it got to a point where we'd be watching TV and I'd hear some heavy breathing, and I look over and she's touching herself in her pants, and I'm like, well, if you're going to, all right, I'm going to join.

01:00:32:09 - 01:00:49:02

Chase

So that's kind of where it started at first. Was she just be thinking she was discreet, but her breath would always get a little bit heavier. And then she'd say, damn it, I didn't think you were going to notice love. And so we had recliners at the time, two different recliners. So we were sitting opposite recliners. So that's where she thought she could hide it.

01:00:49:04 - 01:01:07:04

Chase

Not that it needed to be hidden from me, but then I would just join in. And I think it started, you know, while watching TV. And we clicked pause and it moved to I would tell her often that I did it before going to sleep. It was always a it's a good way to go to sleep. So I think we'd be out on the weekend.

01:01:07:04 - 01:01:23:21

Chase

We get lunch and then say, let's go take a nap. And I would say, well, let's masturbate and go take a nap because it'll put us out pretty quick. And so that's the next step was moving from recliners to then in the bedroom. It was let's get off and then let's take a nap. Yeah. And then just kept up with it.

01:01:23:21 - 01:01:50:04

Chase

Sometimes it was more that fight of, you know, me on top or you on top because one of us is doing more work. And so then the compromise was to we just masturbate. Then and it just became fun because we had more conversations. We're talking about the book that she was reading or talking about the podcast I'm listening to, and listen to what you know, I'd hear, like, something about this girls experience was and meanwhile, we're kind of just edging and talking and masturbating, and.

01:01:50:06 - 01:01:52:05

Luna

That's beautifully intimate.

01:01:52:06 - 01:02:12:18

Chase

And so the compliment, I think I finally realized at that point, though, I like, you know, with porn and just thinking back and hearing the podcast too, when they say, you know, like a fetish is something that you have to think of to get off, I finally realized that kind of is me with cum. Like I have to see it and I have to think like as it gets close, I have to see it come out in porn.

01:02:12:18 - 01:02:33:08

Chase

I have to see it like that's the best part. The money shot is what I need to see. And if she's moving on to another one and say no, we got to wait to the ending. At least in, you know, I like to see it on her or on me. It took me a while to even say, like, if it's on you can, then I lick it off you at some point thinking that I would get like this really disgusted response.

01:02:33:08 - 01:02:36:06

Chase

But she's more like, if that's what you need to do.

01:02:36:07 - 01:02:39:11

Luna

Hot I love that. Amazing. So you've gotten to do that?

01:02:39:12 - 01:02:53:13

Chase

Oh yeah. Yeah. So now she whatever I need to do, like she's not the most fan of it like I am. Like she doesn't need to see it or touch it or okay. But she knows that I enjoy it and need to see it and enjoy that. So she lets me enjoy it. How I feel.

01:02:53:15 - 01:03:06:14

Luna

That's so cool. And you said she's also been really supportive of cross-dressing explorations. Can you talk about that? And just like what you love about it and what turns you want? I mean, you said a little bit about the tightness of the clothes feeling, but I would love to hear more details.

01:03:06:16 - 01:03:41:16

Chase

Mostly started bigger this year, but it was actually around that time I came out bisexual. I also had mentioned things like some of the other secrets that I had growing up was like, I had a cousin that I babysat for when I was 14 or 15, and when I put him down to sleep, just the teenage boy in me would go looking through the laundry of his older sister, who was more like a step cousin to me, and looking at her thongs and, you know, trying them on and as a male, smelling them as well.

01:03:41:21 - 01:03:59:06

Chase

Yeah. And I told her about those things and, you know, and that's pretty common for males to do that. And, you know, she wasn't really because we've already had a lot of conversations. Nothing surprised her anymore that that was okay to say. But it was at that point that I'd said, you know, they I looked up and they make male specific thongs, though.

01:03:59:08 - 01:04:16:17

Chase

Would you care if I wore those? And she's like, no. And so at that time I had ordered a pack and I wore those for like five years. I bought 5 or 6 of them in the cycle through. Cool. So that's kind of where it's not necessarily cross-dressing because they're male specific thongs. They actually hold the pouch. They have a pouch that holds the area.

01:04:16:17 - 01:04:26:16

Chase

But that's initially where it started, you know, kind of feeling sexy in those. And if I was confident enough wishing I could whale tail around with one of those and make those normalized in public.

01:04:26:16 - 01:04:32:00

Luna

Totally, I wish you would to. I would love to see a lot of dude butts.

01:04:32:02 - 01:04:42:10

Chase

But she's lost a lot of weight this year. And so like, I've been kind of sliding her up in public, like saying it turns me on to take you out, like in skimpy clothes and see people look at you.

01:04:42:12 - 01:04:45:23

Luna

Have fun. What permission do. Yum.

01:04:46:01 - 01:05:07:18

Chase

Yeah. So I fire some of those, like on her anniversary this year and she went out like in a white tank that kind of shows no bra that kind of see through. And really short shorts that show a little cheeky love. We were in a different city, so she was okay doing that. But while we bought a bunch of those, I was trying them on two in our hotel room and she was actually liking it and saying, that looks good.

01:05:07:18 - 01:05:25:18

Chase

So I was like, okay, so what if we had a drawer in our dresser that are more unisex shorts, and it's usually just the shorts and the pants for me, like, I like the tightness around the shorts and the behind the pants. And to be able to feel that thinner fabric that the female clothing has around that area.

01:05:25:20 - 01:05:30:03

Chase

And so she was totally fine with technology. I like to look.

01:05:30:05 - 01:05:34:11

Luna

Amazing through a favorite like type of leggings or shorts.

01:05:34:13 - 01:05:42:07

Chase

Those ones that were made popular, they called the TikTok leggings the Little Mermaid type material. Like I have a bunch of those in shorts.

01:05:42:11 - 01:05:43:10

Luna

Who.

01:05:43:12 - 01:05:45:10

Chase

She wears and I wear both.

01:05:45:12 - 01:05:59:14

Luna

Oh, I love that. That's also hot. I really like wearing clothes my partners have worn, you know, whether or not they've just given it to me or something that they still wear. That's really cool. We've gotten such a rich detail of your experiences. What else do you want to share?

01:05:59:16 - 01:06:21:20

Chase

Lastly is just that open communication where like she entertains the things that I could be into. So like she's not quite there, like on me watching her with somebody else. I think she understands the fantasy of it and she entertains the fantasy of other in conversation. But if I were to say, okay, let's do it, if she would agree to it, she knows I would probably get it lined up for this weekend.

01:06:21:20 - 01:06:38:01

Chase

So that would probably not going to happen any time soon. But she gets open to like those fantasies at least. So like she I understand it. And being that we are the only ones that we've ever been with of the opposite genders, like, I could see where it would be fun to try somebody else too, but she's just more kind of still jealous.

01:06:38:07 - 01:06:39:04

Luna

And there's no rush.

01:06:39:05 - 01:06:55:17

Chase

One of the things on my birthday a few weeks ago, since I didn't get that one, I said, let's try something different. I'll set up an iPad watching you. I'll go in the other room and I just want to see what it looks like, where you watch porn and get yourself off a few times.

01:06:55:19 - 01:06:59:01

Luna

How creative and fun. How was it? What did you take away from it?

01:06:59:01 - 01:07:15:13

Chase

It was way from. Yeah, like I couldn't see the screen, but I could see her. I got some good screen recordings out of it and she said, that was really fun. Actually, that's because she doesn't watch as much porn. I should watch it with me. But she won't. Like if I'm gone on a business trip or she's home alone, I'll say, do you watch porn?

01:07:15:15 - 01:07:27:15

Chase

Like, no, I don't need it. Like I'm not visual. I just get off for the feeling, not for the visual. Yeah, yeah. And so that was my birthday request that she actually has to watch it and get herself off. And I get to see it from, like, an iPad on a different room.

01:07:27:18 - 01:07:35:17

Luna

That's super hot. Voyeur like creativeness. Did you pick the porn together or did you pick it for her or did she pick it for herself?

01:07:35:18 - 01:07:38:11

Chase

I just typed in Pornhub and gave her the phone.

01:07:38:13 - 01:07:52:20

Luna

Nice. Okay, okay. That's awesome. What other like, fantasies do you have? Whether or not they'll ever actually be explored? I would love to hear what else you kind of like, enjoy fantasizing about. Maybe tell us ones that won't be explored and ones that you hope to explore.

01:07:52:22 - 01:08:12:23

Chase

I think the ones that don't get explored or tried, I tend to get into like those taboo fantasies and I've admitted to her, but she just says, you know, you're gross. And she jokes about it. But those taboo, like the sister in law or the mother in law, she hates that I've done like step sibling porn and stuff like that.

01:08:12:23 - 01:08:30:02

Chase

So when I joke about, like, her mom or her sister and things like that, then she's, you know, but so those are fantasies that would never happen. But she knows that I have them, and she's right that I get off to them in my head. I don't know that it's going to be a complete no, that I end up watching her with somebody at some point.

01:08:30:02 - 01:08:51:02

Chase

I think maybe we just have to get a little bit older. I think things like going to where there's nude beaches or going to a strip club together, or to Vegas together, where we can go to like the Thunder from Down Under shows. Now that we both can appreciate the males and strip club. She doesn't appreciate the females, but she's willing to entertain that idea.

01:08:51:02 - 01:08:55:05

Chase

So definitely things on the bucket list that we can still check off.

01:08:55:07 - 01:09:06:20

Luna

Fuck yeah. That's beautiful. Okay, I am curious about your butt. Do you play with it all? You said you're a butt guy. I know that you like female butts and looking at butts, do you play with yours at all or would you want to?

01:09:06:22 - 01:09:25:02

Chase

Yeah, we definitely. We have what we call Big Blue. So there is some pecking in there. Okay. We have a harness. That is we don't like those other harnesses that look kind of like a jock strap. We actually got one that is actually a pair of panties with the hole in it. Yeah, we definitely explore that. And she knows I like it.

01:09:25:02 - 01:09:37:21

Chase

And she actually likes having that power. Now that she reads those male male books, she likes to to have that power and feel like the male of the relationship in those male male erotic novels.

01:09:37:23 - 01:09:44:06

Luna

I fucking love. What are your general hopes for your sex life going forward?

01:09:44:08 - 01:09:58:02

Chase

Think to not end up like either one of our parents, who I don't think neither one of our parents touch each other at all. So I think we still want to be as explorative and curious when we're in our 60s as we are right now.

01:09:58:04 - 01:10:05:16

Luna

I love that. Do you any other thoughts on sex in general that you would like to share with our lovely listeners?

01:10:05:18 - 01:10:25:18

Chase

Just be curious in the open for those parents, have those conversations early and often. That's something that we're trying to do too, because we both went through where everything was no, no, no or not talked about at all. So be open, be curious, be honest, beautiful.

01:10:25:20 - 01:10:32:18

Luna

And if you could go back in time and give a younger you a piece of the sex advice, what age or ages would you pick and what would you say?

01:10:32:20 - 01:10:52:19

Chase

No, I think I would say go back to those years in my teens where I could just probably go back and tell myself, it's okay to like males or females. Like, I think that's why maybe those situations where I didn't follow through or wasn't able to perform was because I still was hiding that side of me. So go back and just not care.

01:10:52:19 - 01:10:59:18

Chase

It's okay. And I wish I could grow up in today's world back then, because it's a lot more open and acceptable.

01:10:59:20 - 01:11:08:12

Luna

I want that for all of us. I want us to all just grow up in places where we are just loved as is beautiful. Chase, thank you for being a guest on Sex Stories.

01:11:08:14 - 01:11:10:02

Chase

Thank you so much for listening.