57 mostly straight but pan-curious married cis male

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00:00:00:05 - 00:00:18:19

Luna

Our guest today is a 57 year old married man. He is mostly straight, but is pen curious and he's into leather work and ropes. A certified Tantra educator, massage practitioner, journeyman and electrician from Central California and in fact my very own hometown. Though I did not know him when I lived there. Welcome, will.

00:00:18:21 - 00:00:19:20

Wil

Hi.

00:00:19:22 - 00:00:27:17

Luna

First, if you were to rate yourself today on a sexual shame meter with ten being the most full of shame and one being not to shame me at all, where do you fall right now?

00:00:27:19 - 00:00:33:18

Wil

I'd say about 3 a.m.. I'm feeling a lot of you know, nervousness and stuff like that, but I think it's just jitters.

00:00:33:23 - 00:00:40:00

Luna

Okay. And can you give us a little overview of what your sex life is like right now? Like what are your favorite parts? What are you into?

00:00:40:01 - 00:00:59:13

Wil

One of my favorite parts is when I can surprise my wife with something like, sometimes when she comes home from work, I may have the massage table set up. And just to spoil her with that and get her to relax, you know, get her sense of vigilance, you know, kind of lower down so she can really just relax.

00:00:59:13 - 00:01:36:07

Wil

And then when we're connecting and being intimate, you know, there's so much around energy and touch and connection that you know, with her, it's something that I've found pretty unique in life is just how open she is. When I drop into an energetic space. Yeah. You know, if we're being intimate and I allow my, like, the thinking brain to shut down and really get into feeling, you know, and I used to think this was my imagination, but I would just imagine, like, the energy from the earth flowing up and through me, and I would actually feel her respond just by making that kind of request for energy to move through me.

00:01:36:12 - 00:01:47:13

Wil

And that's when I knew that this was an amazing possibility deepening. And that has always just really, you know, it's led to her having new experiences as well, which is really joyful.

00:01:47:15 - 00:01:56:15

Luna

That's amazing. And I can't wait to hear more about this. Can you tell us first, though, what is sexy to you? What does it mean with your personal definition?

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:19:09

Wil

A lot of it has to do with confidence, like sexy. And an individual is one where they're just feeling so grounded in their own life and their own being that they're just able to show up with, you know, they know their boundaries and know how they're coming across. And for me, there's just something that kind of emanates from them that just captures my eye.

00:02:19:10 - 00:02:27:21

Wil

You know, it doesn't so much depend upon their physicality or anything else, but when there's that sense of confidence and look in their eye, that definitely gets my attention.

00:02:27:23 - 00:02:30:13

Luna

And when do you feel sexy?

00:02:30:15 - 00:02:53:11

Wil

When I feel sexy. Oh, man, I feel good about myself because I live in a lot of self-doubt. I'm very often, you know, checking my motivations or checking how I might be being perceived. So when I'm feeling really clear about that and I'm feeling empowered and there's no conflict going on, when there's no internal conflict, no external conflict, then I generally like to feel sexy.

00:02:53:11 - 00:03:14:16

Wil

As my therapist says, you know, everything should be foreplay. You know, everything in life should give you turn on. I call it turn on. So when things are going great, like I'm working on the house, we're doing a remodel and it's just starting to really get dialed in, feeling good. It's like there's, you know, a good turn on in that space because my, you know, and you hear me use this one.

00:03:14:16 - 00:03:27:09

Wil

So the vigilance that I have, you know, I'm looking for things that are not quite right or need to be tweaked one way or the other, and none of that is there. I am free to just kind of drop into myself and feel sexy.

00:03:27:11 - 00:03:43:18

Luna

Amazing. And I too am a big fan of living a turned on life. Like for me, I think once I started having good sex and it started to kind of create this cyclical thing in my life where everything, I mean, not like to rosy glasses, but just like I still have regular sad days, hard days, whatever. But like I feel you.

00:03:43:19 - 00:03:50:09

Luna

Okay, so we've heard what's sexy to you when you feel sexy now. What do you actually define as sex? What is sex?

00:03:50:14 - 00:04:22:02

Wil

Two I would say, you know, I have an inner world, and I have this kind of outer world. And like, sex to me is like, when you are interacting with somebody where you're kind of going from tantric, I mean, define things in terms of tantra, of white tantra over all the way to the extreme of Red tantra, white Tantra is, if I am like meditating or I take care of my own energetic space, the idea of relaxing my body and stuff like that, that's doing white tantra because I'm dealing with the energy that's in and around myself.

00:04:22:04 - 00:04:47:04

Wil

And then if you go to the extreme of deep Red Tantra, that's like during sex and, and, you know, bodies are penetrating each other and your energies are all mixed up. That's red. So you can go anywhere from white to pink to red, because depending upon how you're interfacing with somebody, you're dropping in your, you know, auras or whatever you want to call your body energy that emanates from as are overlapping.

00:04:47:04 - 00:05:11:09

Wil

And so, you know, my definition of sex can be anywhere along the lines of, you know, something pink to absolutely red. Because obviously, if I'm having sex with somebody, that's sex. But if I am having a juicy, you know, I engaging with somebody and you kind of feel that turn on going on. There's definitely a quality around sex that I mean, that gives me turn on, that gives me vitality.

00:05:11:09 - 00:05:17:12

Wil

And that's something that I really love. And so I call that sex to totally limit.

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Luna

Is there intention behind it? Because I imagine that there must be, especially in sort of like, are you monogamous with your partner?

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Wil

We're monogamous. We've had some threesomes. We've gone to some, you know, play parties and things of that nature.

00:05:30:07 - 00:05:39:06

Luna

So I just ask because I imagine that you're not like accidentally I gazing at someone, even if you do feel an energetic connection, like there's got to be some intention behind that, maybe two.

00:05:39:07 - 00:05:58:18

Wil

Sure, if it's somewhat rosy and certain as opposed to red, but if it's something rosy that that's okay. You know, it's when you cross physical boundaries and things of that nature. You know, my wife has a lot of male friends in this small town. She was living up here. That's why I came to where I live now. She's got a lot of male friends, and they've got a lot of special connections.

00:05:58:18 - 00:06:23:23

Wil

And, I mean, some of them are even ex-boyfriends or, you know, lovers of that nature and, you know, and we get along fantastic and so forth like that. And where I need to get myself more clear is, is that I feel intimidated sometimes dropping in with women for the most part, in that regard, because I get self-conscious because I, you know, wonder at what point would that be something that might be a trigger for her.

00:06:24:01 - 00:06:40:21

Wil

And so that's a space that really don't enjoy, because I want to just be myself 100% authentically. Yeah. And so, you know, as long as the physical boundaries are honored, cool. Once they kind of slip beyond that. Not okay. So yeah, monogamy is not a matter.

00:06:40:23 - 00:06:52:14

Luna

I totally feel so much of that. And it's also tricky because sometimes we don't know until later like that. Oftentimes we don't. Boundaries wise, what I've been observing with people's like, sometimes they don't know. Sometimes we don't know, sometimes we can tell.

00:06:52:15 - 00:07:11:07

Wil

Yeah, yeah, I've had to have awkward conversations with people. I like being part of the dance communities where I'm at. You know, in that space there can be a lot of energy thrown around. And so, again, getting back to my demographic and just wanting to contain my energy, but then you feel this titillation with somebody and you're like, okay, well that's that's nice.

00:07:11:07 - 00:07:29:21

Wil

That's turn on, that's, that's feeding me. And then it's like, well how much of that is just because I'm an older guy, you know, I'm pushing 60 here in a few years and I've never thought I'd live this long. It's like, is it me being insecure and worrying? Do I still have it. Just got it versus like, am I actually doing this?

00:07:29:21 - 00:07:43:06

Wil

This person's younger to my daughter. And so there is this one person in this dance community here where I was like, hey, can I talk to you for a second? She's like, sure. Like I'm feeling this energy. I just want to know, is it just something I'm creating or is it? And she goes, oh no, it's definitely there.

00:07:43:06 - 00:07:50:07

Wil

I'm like, oh God, sugar. It's like, you know, I'm way over. Yeah, you're way too old for me. And like, okay, great.

00:07:50:09 - 00:08:05:12

Luna

Okay. But what a beautiful conversation because you can acknowledge that your experience is real. And then also decide if you're going to do anything about it or not consciously, rather than just like, because what I get a lot is like, is there a, you know, the feeling with someone is there and then suddenly like, well, I'll do it again.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:07:01

Luna

Gross tongue toward the microphone.

00:08:07:01 - 00:08:08:21

Wil

But like, yeah.

00:08:08:23 - 00:08:12:07

Luna

Yeah, okay. And it was okay for you to receive that. It sounds like too.

00:08:12:09 - 00:08:32:05

Wil

It is. But I have to allow myself to receive it, because what I want to ideally do is I want to feel this turn on throughout life, go through my day, feel either this, you know, the energy people are sending my way, and then I want to bring it home, and I want to turn it and direct it to my partner and have it kind of fill her up, feel my turn.

00:08:32:06 - 00:08:54:12

Wil

I feel my excitement. And that's something that I really want to see. The world, in a larger sense, have the permission to do that and know that it, unless you are really looking to mess things up, then it's okay. You know, it's like we're all learning. We're all, you know, energetic spirits having a physical experience or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

00:08:54:17 - 00:09:05:05

Luna

Or whatever. Exactly. Okay. So now take it back. What sort of sex ed lesson? Health and safety talk or any lesson in consent did you get growing up? Did you get one?

00:09:05:07 - 00:09:30:12

Wil

Well, I would say as far as can set, no, that was never something that was brought up, which is a real shame. I didn't learn that until much later, till I was doing things with, one taste and sexual mastery and sort school Tantra yoga. It wasn't until then where it became so explicit, but as far as hometown goes, we had that sex talk in junior high sex ed, and that was abysmal.

00:09:30:12 - 00:10:03:08

Wil

And it just left me with a lot of fears around getting somebody pregnant, getting STDs, but nothing about like, how do you approach somebody respectfully? How do you know boundaries are how do you know when you're pushing something that it's okay, you know? And so, yeah, I never got the sex talk from my parents. The nearest thing that came to is probably when I was about 15, my mother gave me a book and it was just about, you know, the birds and the bees and how an orgasm might feel and things of that nature, but never really something all that empowering.

00:10:03:08 - 00:10:26:22

Wil

It wasn't until I made a really foolish mistake of having unprotected sex once that I got an STD, and my mom really had my back on that because it was a very awkward moment for me. Was 18 or 19 at the time, and I just discovered what the was it this chlamydia that gives you that drip as a male?

00:10:27:00 - 00:10:43:21

Wil

And, I was at work and I'm like, what the hell is happening down there? And found out I had contracted chlamydia, and it was devastating, you know, and I remember I was at home and I came out of the bathroom. My mom just read me like a book. She's like, what's wrong? And I'm like, oh, Jesus. All right.

00:10:43:21 - 00:11:07:06

Wil

So I told her what happened, which is probably a good thing because person I got it from, I went and had a conversation with her and I said, hey, you know, I think I got something from you. And she called up my household, this is back before cell phone. So it was landline and she just basically blasted my mom, saying, tell your son that didn't get it from me, got it from somebody else.

00:11:07:08 - 00:11:26:07

Wil

And my mom just laughed at her on the phone because I had already had this conversation with her. And so that was very liberating that my mom had my back. She trusted me, that I had. Yeah, I made a mistake, but I was very honest about that, had a very honest conversation with her. And so I was very grateful for being able to have that level of conversation with her.

00:11:26:09 - 00:11:33:18

Wil

But it was unfortunate that it had to happen in the past tense. Like this. The party, instead of having the knowledge ahead of time.

00:11:33:21 - 00:11:43:17

Luna

How was that for you? I know we haven't gone into your early experiences yet, but like, it sounds like there was a bonding moment with your mom. Were you scared of STIs after that, or did it kind of inform your future practices?

00:11:43:19 - 00:12:10:02

Wil

Inform our future practices? But. So I went to doctors to check that out. And I not only contacted some idiot, but I also got HPV. But I didn't know I had HPV until a time in the future where having protected sex kind of slipped off and found out later that I had given somebody HPV. I did not know I had genital warts that.

00:12:10:04 - 00:12:12:10

Luna

Well, HPV is a sneaky one too.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:36:11

Wil

Oh yeah, it's really, really bad. And unfortunately, I think I may have compromised this person's ability to have children, you know, and that was devastating to me, you know, and it just really wracked my brain. And so now I got thrown into this headspace around, I want sex, I want closeness, I want to, you know, experience what that is all about because it's all around me.

00:12:36:11 - 00:13:08:06

Wil

It's ubiquitously around me. And it's not something that I have an ease of being able to have. Because now I got this sneaky virus that, you know, can really mess people up. And so it wasn't until like decades later of like, searching, and finding answers about sex, about consent and having communication with people and that you can really drop in like some people, like, oh, yeah, I've encountered HPV before, or I've been vaccinated or anything else like that.

00:13:08:08 - 00:13:14:12

Wil

And then, you know, make the decision to be, you know, fluid bonded, that you can have unprotected sex.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:25:18

Luna

Okay. So as an adult now, when you're having a conversation with a potential new partner that you and your wife might play with, how would that conversation go between you guys?

00:13:25:20 - 00:13:40:14

Wil

Oh, okay. Well, we are going to be sexual. So what works for you in terms of keeping yourself safe? What's your sexual history? When was your last time you've been tested? You know, and if it's something where there's any kind of ambiguity. Yeah, condoms are going to be used.

00:13:40:14 - 00:13:58:13

Luna

Beautiful. Okay. And then I know that you didn't get an explicit consent talk. Just like me, just like most of us. But do you have an experience as an adult? It sounds like you have lots of them. Where there was a very clear, explicit. Yes, that was just sexy, hot and yummy that you could share with us.

00:13:58:15 - 00:14:19:18

Wil

I know in the past that my partner has had sexual encounters with more than just her primary partner, her boyfriend at the time. And so I want to experience group sex, and I know that she had a lot of guidance around that. So I reached out to an ex-lover of hers and invited him to come up for a visit, unbeknownst to her.

00:14:19:20 - 00:14:40:07

Wil

And so it was kind of at risk. But I was also very clear with him that, you know, this is not any guarantee that we're all going to get down and dirty, you know, no guarantees at all, because I know I'm surprising her with this. And so you got to be in the position that if she's like, this is overwhelming, then it's off.

00:14:40:13 - 00:14:57:05

Wil

And he was really cool about it. He was totally fine. Cool. So he came up. It was a Friday. I think she had just gotten off of work or she had her Friday free. I forget which, but I remember I was standing in the kitchen talking to him and you know, he's standing right there. My partner had no knowledge.

00:14:57:05 - 00:15:25:22

Wil

She goes walking through the house but didn't look in the kitchen direction, walk through to the back room, came walking back in the direction she turned and looked at me, saw him standing next to me and it was just the look on her face was beautiful. It's a Kodak moment I wish I'd grabbed, but then it was pretty much like, oh yeah, you know, when I when she realized what I had set up, it was definitely a go.

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:47:10

Wil

And it was transformative for me because I needed that, because I had some insecurities that I knew I could grow through, but I had to have the experience in order for it to grow through. So the fact that she put together and also we talked about it, that I had been reaching out to him and wanted him here because I wanted her to see that it could be safe, that we had a lot of a lot of fun that weekend.

00:15:47:15 - 00:16:08:02

Wil

And so and we had this safe sex talk, about testing and things of that nature. He's very, very experimental. This guy is off the charts. Okay. As far as that goes. And in some ways, I admire that. It's like, that's the threshold where I'd like to be, but I'd like to get to that threshold with my wife as well.

00:16:08:02 - 00:16:28:07

Wil

So that way, you know, we're all able to experience this juiciness that life has to offer, and then we're keeping each other safe because we know what boundaries we want to have. We want to share these experiences together, you know, at this stage anyway, like meeting new people and running off with them separate is not something that's currently on the table.

00:16:28:13 - 00:16:32:21

Wil

Yeah. Never be. And I'm okay with that easing.

00:16:32:23 - 00:16:52:17

Luna

I also just love that married people get the sort of like I think of it as like a trust bridge, like it's a wiggly, like you get some wiggle room because you have trust, because there is commitment, because you know this person so well. And I think just as a person that has never had a relationship last more than a few years, I can only imagine that that's fucking cool.

00:16:52:23 - 00:16:54:06

Luna

I love it.

00:16:54:07 - 00:17:14:06

Wil

But, you know, like, I like I use the analogy of a wiggly bridge because sometimes you feel like wiggle and you're like, is it going to break? You know? And so yeah, I remember the morning after the first night that stayed over, I was in the kitchen, I was making coffee for everybody, and I was starting to hear activity in the bedroom.

00:17:14:12 - 00:17:35:08

Wil

And that turned me on a lot. But it was also knowing that I was going to walk in there, and it's going to be a first experience for us because, you know, she's not sure about where I'm at. You know, I can just suddenly question like, this isn't cool. You know, this is great. And but that's not the space I want to grow into.

00:17:35:10 - 00:17:57:06

Wil

So walking in there and feeling jitters and feeling, you know, we stayed up pretty much all night. So I was a little thread worn and on a little edge. And that led to a really good energetic space because, you know, they could tell my energy was a little ungrounded, a little stirred up, wiggly. Yeah, wiggly. That really things.

00:17:57:08 - 00:18:19:05

Wil

But we had a chance from there to grow into a conversation of, you know, okay, a lot of this is because I'm really tired. A lot of kind of confronting. It's a new experience. However, it's not one that I am, you know, turned off by or feeling any negative emotions around it. Just something I want to process. And so we process that through.

00:18:19:05 - 00:18:27:00

Wil

And we've had a couple of other, you know, experiences together. We've gone to dungeons together, the three of us, you know, and it's so fun.

00:18:27:02 - 00:18:43:20

Luna

So the pieces of your story that we have so far is 18 ish. You get HPV and chlamydia, you have that first experience, and there's some resulting fear that we'll hear about. And then you at some point have this sneaky threesome experience. When was that? Was that recently ish or.

00:18:43:22 - 00:18:44:17

Wil

Very.

00:18:44:18 - 00:18:47:06

Luna

Okay. Okay. So sometime in the last year you'd say.

00:18:47:08 - 00:18:51:01

Wil

That's the first time we had, threesome was about two years ago.

00:18:51:03 - 00:18:55:23

Luna

Okay. And then when was your year of poly for yourself?

00:18:56:01 - 00:18:59:12

Wil

My year of poly was 2015.

00:18:59:14 - 00:19:02:21

Luna

Okay, okay. And you were still married at the time?

00:19:02:23 - 00:19:03:18

Wil

No, we weren't married.

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:04:09

Luna

Oh, you weren't married.

00:19:04:09 - 00:19:06:06

Wil

Only the last four years.

00:19:06:07 - 00:19:13:07

Luna

Okay, so your year of solo poly then was 2015, and then you've been married the last four years. Okay, so.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:30:13

Wil

The 18, you've been married. And so, yeah, my, my wife and I met at a music festival, and it became this thing the same time. Next year. We were both single parents at the time. And so because I was down in Santa Cruz and she was in another part of California where I am now, we would only see each other for the same music festival.

00:19:30:13 - 00:19:31:00

Luna

Amazing.

00:19:31:00 - 00:19:39:01

Wil

And so we same time next year. And then finally we decided, like, let's explore this outside of the music festival venue and see if it was something that was more substantial.

00:19:39:01 - 00:19:53:06

Luna

As, okay, okay, so now take us back to your early years. When do you first remember hearing about sex, thinking about sex, learning that it was a thing and then take us through your formative experiences that shaped you?

00:19:53:08 - 00:20:17:12

Wil

Well, you know, my body started going through, you know, these pubescent experiences of like, you know, I was in sixth grade and I had an erection. I'm like, what the hell is happening here? I did not know. And then I had a lot of chores. I grew up in a military family, so I had a whole series of chores to do, and one of my chores was emptying the trash baskets in the house, and so I would empty the trash baskets.

00:20:17:12 - 00:20:37:23

Wil

And occasionally there'd be like a publication in there. And one of them was from my sister's room. I was the youngest of four, so my sister had this magazine that used to come out. It's called The Forum and basically shared six stories, basically not constructive sex stories like this, but more like the kind of cheap rag, you know, things like people.

00:20:37:23 - 00:21:00:21

Wil

And this is the 70s. So people were exploring sex and clubs and things of that nature, and that was like, whoa, what is this? You know, some threw it in my, my sister's magazine. So I saved that for a very long time. And so I read that and then probably about a year or so later, I was emptying my father's trash basket and I found a penthouse, and I'm like, oh, goldmine hit that.

00:21:00:23 - 00:21:36:10

Wil

Then I had friends down the street. One of them was from LA, and the, hardcore magazines were like, what? Triple X art magazine penthouse, which is now quite soft porn comparison. And so I remember seeing those discovering those discovering and touching myself and masturbating. Sorry. Having wet dreams, probably when I was about 14, 15, when was discovering these magazines, discovering puberty, and then when I finally realized like, what happens if I keep stroking my penis until until, oh my God, until that happens.

00:21:36:12 - 00:22:00:05

Wil

And then it was like, oh, I wasn't peeing in bed. I was having, you know, wet dreams and stuff like that. And I didn't even have words for that, you know, because I didn't have an education around what was going on with me. Yeah. And so, you know, again, you know, things I would just say put myself back in my head and my brain and not in my body, and not just feeling like, oh, I feel turned on.

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:32:14

Wil

Okay. I don't have to do anything with that or I want to do something with that. So but yeah, once I discovered that access to porn, you know, now I could just, you know, open a web page and see all the naked bodies and sex I want, you know, it's everywhere. But back in my day, when I was, like 16 years old, or actually I had my driver's license when I was 15 years old, me and my friends would writer bicycles with long pants to the nearest corner store that sold and you'd buy a magazine.

00:22:32:14 - 00:22:58:23

Wil

I was terrified, 15 years old. You're buying this adult publication and I was trying not to shake be all cool. And you know, spend your five bucks on a magazine, which as a teenager at that time was a lot of money. Yeah. And then, you know, your full length pants, you know, your socks, your knee high socks and put your pant leg below it and you'd ride the mile and a half home and that was your, you know, store, and you'd hide it in your bedroom and stuff like that.

00:22:59:01 - 00:23:14:16

Wil

Okay. And then, you know, with school never be home. So I, you know, camp out in the bathroom and, you know, rubbing off, so to speak, looking at pornography. And that was kind of like my education around education, but my experience around, you know, getting more into sex. Okay. You know.

00:23:14:18 - 00:23:20:11

Luna

So how did that then start to translate into partnered explorations.

00:23:20:13 - 00:23:44:13

Wil

Poorly. All right. So my first like sexual experience, you know, with another person was when I was in high school, I kept getting hooked up with all the exchange students. There was this exchange student on the swim team, and, she's from Brazil. So beautiful. And I remember one day after practice, I was like, so, do you need a ride home?

00:23:44:13 - 00:24:06:07

Wil

And she's like, no, I have a ride in the car. It's really fun. It's like, oh, and for some reason I said, whoo! And she just looked at me. She said, you. And I was like, oh, I'll drive you home. Okay. And so we started dating after that, you know, and it was really special. And so she was the first person that I had any kind of sexual relating to.

00:24:06:09 - 00:24:32:15

Wil

And so, like the magazines and stuff like that and the VHS tapes you could rent to watch porn back before you even blockbuster existed. And so I knew that, you know, cunnilingus is something that's perfectly safe and very cool. So I remember one time driving her back to her exchange students house. I remember her setting her on a comfortable spot in the living room of her foster house and, going down on her.

00:24:32:17 - 00:25:01:16

Wil

And that was a really neat experience. I don't remember if she had an orgasm or not. I like to think she did. And then probably a week or so later, like we're making out in her room and she's like, I want to go down on you. And I'm like, okay. And that was amazing. And then probably about a month or so later, maybe less, we were on a road trip to the coast with her family, and we went out.

00:25:01:17 - 00:25:18:22

Wil

I was driving a suburban type truck and crawled into the back, and we both lost our virginity to each other, but we both didn't know. Especially I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. And so, you know, the thing is, it's like I couldn't have a full erection. She was really dry because.

00:25:19:00 - 00:25:21:19

Luna

We didn't know about wetness.

00:25:21:21 - 00:25:24:02

Wil

You know why this is so important? You know.

00:25:24:04 - 00:25:42:23

Luna

I know, but my my early sex, I didn't know about it. I didn't know how to get wet and up. I didn't know that was part of it. I think it's so funny. The pressure people put on themselves to know what to do when you literally couldn't possibly, you know, you prepared as much as you could have. So, I don't know, it sounds like you don't know.

00:25:43:00 - 00:25:57:04

Luna

Sounds like it's actually pretty good. You said that it poorly prepared you. What were the parts that maybe didn't feel good, or what were the parts that then kind of transitioned into the next phase because it was this lady. And then at some point a couple of years later, you had the scary experience.

00:25:57:04 - 00:26:17:04

Wil

And there was so there was a time when I was 19 and I was working out at McDonald's that this woman at a party, she's like, like, I'd love to have sex with you. And I'm like, oh, great, okay. And, we went out on a date and I was having difficulty getting an erection because I was nervous and all this other stuff.

00:26:17:06 - 00:26:41:23

Wil

And long story short, she started laughing at me, and that just pulled the sheets out from under me. I was already having, you know, self-confidence issues around this as it was. Yeah. So that really blew a hole in my throat. And so when I say it prepared me poorly, it's like, you know, there's so much and I know a little bit later you're going to ask me, like, what would I tell my younger self at some point if I go back in time?

00:26:42:01 - 00:27:05:18

Wil

There's just so much coaching that I think needs to happen, and that's why when I started hearing about, you know, sex stories and the way you were sharing them when I first started hearing your interviews, that really excited me because as a chance to, at least for others, to not have to go through these trials, you know, because knowing that connecting with another person is super important.

00:27:05:18 - 00:27:31:04

Wil

I mean, I just didn't discover that until I was. This would been in 2007, eventually moved to Santa Cruz to co-parent and be in the same town as the parent of my daughter is that I really realized that because I was feeling a lot of loneliness, but also a lot of desire for sex and so paying for sex, I realized even in times like that where it's like, yeah, you're here to have sex with me.

00:27:31:06 - 00:27:57:06

Wil

I was still having erectile issues come up, and I just really came to realize, it's like, I need to have this connection. First and foremost, I need to connect to the person that I want to be intimate, because otherwise it's just so shallow and superficial, and I want to be in a deeper space. And so I just came to realize that my own nervous system operates better around sex.

00:27:57:06 - 00:28:21:16

Wil

When it feels safe, when I can not be vigilant for my own self, when I can give myself permission, you know, so in certain situations, like, you know, having sex with somebody that is doing it because you're paying them to do it, the permissions there. Yeah. But sometimes like I'm very empathic and if you can tell the person that you're connecting with had some trauma and they're guarded, I'm going to pick up on it.

00:28:21:19 - 00:28:23:19

Wil

And it's just not drop into it.

00:28:23:21 - 00:28:36:16

Luna

Well, it's it's tricky because like hiring a sex worker doesn't just mean that suddenly you get a perfect girlfriend, it means you're just hiring a person. That's definitely going to say yes. Right then and there in that moment. But it's like still a form of dating kind of kind of.

00:28:36:17 - 00:28:53:03

Wil

Yeah. You're hoping that, you know, you, you, you yourself reached a point of that satisfaction. But I also know that I don't consider myself a selfish person. So I mean, even if I'm with somebody who I'm paying, that's I want them to have a good time. Yeah. And if they're there just for the money, I ain't going to happen.

00:28:53:03 - 00:28:56:20

Wil

So I mean, that's something that I can't even remember the last time I did that.

00:28:56:22 - 00:29:03:11

Luna

Can I ask where you were meeting these people with, like, massage parlors, or was it like websites or secret places to go, or was it like back.

00:29:03:11 - 00:29:33:00

Wil

In the day? Craigslist used to have quite a great source. I remember at like after my parents died, I went on a sabbatical. I quit my job in Sequoia National Park, had been out there for ten years, and I rode my motorcycle across North America for almost half a year. A little bit of a trust fund. Wow. When you're riding solo, and, I mean, unless it's somebody that you've reached out visa via a personal website, and you drop in and connect more with them, you know, sometimes I would pay for connection with somebody like.

00:29:33:00 - 00:29:43:12

Luna

Yeah. So I'm hearing the connection is important to you. It also really sounds like your partner's experience is a large part of your sexual experience. Does that feel safe to say, oh.

00:29:43:14 - 00:30:06:14

Wil

Oh, that's super sexy? Okay. Yeah, I moved to Santa Cruz in 2007. So I was there for nine years, and over the course of time there, I gradually got more into these sex positive educations and around 2013, I got involved with somebody who was very interested in what they call orgasmic meditation.

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:15:18

Luna

I've heard of this. Yes, oh Am is on my bucket list for sure, because why wouldn't I want to just like, lay around and get touched? That's my understanding of it as I lay around and get touched.

00:30:15:20 - 00:30:43:23

Wil

So yes, yes, for the most part, yes. So so that really helped peel away those layers of self shame, of doubt and things of that nature, mostly from being a stroker, just really being there for somebody else and experiencing my monkey mind racing on and to the point of it can just quiet down, you know, knowing enough about a woman's anatomy and nervous system that, you know, if the energy's there, you can feel it.

00:30:43:23 - 00:31:06:20

Wil

And if the energy's not, then let's pause. You know, pull back a little bit and have a conversation. You know, it may just be the end of it. Like, okay, you know, it's rare, but, 1 or 2 occasions, in a homing session where somebody is like, I need to stop and okay, that's the stop. You know, the idea is that you don't take that personally.

00:31:06:22 - 00:31:15:20

Wil

Everyone's in their own place. And I may be in a certain vibing at a certain frequency. And maybe at that moment for that day, it's just not a good set.

00:31:16:01 - 00:31:35:03

Luna

So I think that's the thing about sex in general is we always want to just make sure that we're thing. Well, it also sounds like you are just being trained in these classes, quite literally to pay attention to your partner, but it also sounds like you are a person who has always had that desire, and it sounded like you were about to tell me more about foreplay stuff earlier.

00:31:35:03 - 00:31:44:19

Luna

I would love to hear you talk about your experiences with foreplay, and maybe even share the arc of. Has your foreplay changed since you got all these new learnings?

00:31:44:21 - 00:32:07:23

Wil

Yeah, definitely has changed. It used to be that going down on a partner was something that I did because, well, I wanted them to feel really good and ideally have an orgasm because I had this self-talk that I'm probably going to disappoint them because I'm either going to not get as much of an erection as I would like, or I'm going to come too fast.

00:32:08:00 - 00:32:28:04

Wil

So is it one extreme or another? And a lot of that I do with my own self story and the tension I carry within me. So I went from being one where I wanted to guarantee their pleasure, make their time with me worth it to one of like just more play. You know? Now it's more play because, you know, I've grown into trusting my body more.

00:32:28:04 - 00:32:49:23

Wil

Or maybe my body trusts me better. I have probably to look at that. And so when it comes to foreplay, it's something that is, you know, building up to things like with my wife. Yeah, I might bring her to orgasm because of foreplay. That's fine. She's going to have a lot more orgasms before we're done. Yeah. So, I mean, that's become one, you know, an issue.

00:32:49:23 - 00:33:08:22

Wil

That's it's that's a non-issue now. So. So foreplay is now just part of the whole palette that as we're building up, you know, ideally our lives are feeding us, you know, juicy moments. And then we're actually getting physical closer, more juiciness. And then let's have fun and orgasm.

00:33:09:00 - 00:33:20:04

Luna

Do you still have the same monkey mind anxiety around penis things, around hardness, around performance stuff? Or has that kind of settled down for you in your pursuit of pleasure?

00:33:20:06 - 00:33:42:07

Wil

Yeah, it's definitely settled down more. I feel much more happy about that, you know, quality or if it's not happening over those two things now. Okay. So now as I'm getting older and you know, I'm 57, never thought I'd live to see this stage in my life. So now it's something is starting to not pop up. I'm like, oh, is it because I'm getting older?

00:33:42:07 - 00:34:04:08

Wil

Oh shit. You know? So I really want to have juicy energy around me because I know that feeds my system. You know, regardless of that. And I know that when that's alive in my life, that I tend to not have any kind of, you know, non-responsive erectile issues popping up. So, yeah, it feeds it, you know, positive feedback loops are good.

00:34:04:10 - 00:34:11:12

Luna

So cool. Okay. I also want to know about the year of poly life that you had.

00:34:11:13 - 00:34:36:11

Wil

Well, you know, I was dating somebody pretty intently for about three years while I was in Santa Cruz. And she was at the kidney. You know, she was basically kind of a sex worker, but would not have like her modus operandi was to teach men about self-mastery, you know, like edging them basically through using her hands on their hands to bring them to an edge and not have them fall over that at home.

00:34:36:12 - 00:34:37:18

Luna

Fun.

00:34:37:20 - 00:34:58:02

Wil

Yeah. When you do something like sort school of tantra yoga, the idea is that you describe your sexual moment on a scale of 1 to 10, where, you know, once you hit ten, you're orgasm. Okay, you're coming. Now on a slight tangent, that doesn't necessarily mean ejaculation for a man. That can be an energetic orgasm. Right? And those are sweet.

00:34:58:02 - 00:35:26:11

Wil

I've only have those a handful of time in my life, not through much of like, intercourse, but more through foreplay, where it just gets to that point where you just feel so like, what's all this energy? And so instead of, like, inquiring about the energy, you just letting it flow through me, then, you know, the body just starts to basically orgasm, you know, and you just feel it in your body and then you kind of ride that rollercoaster for a few moments.

00:35:26:11 - 00:35:49:22

Wil

And like any other orgasm, it starts to calm down. But you haven't lost. You know what typically happens when you have them as a man, as you when you ejaculate, you know your energy drops down your body, you starts to, wants to recoup and rest itself like that. But with an energetic orgasm, you don't drop all the way down, you go to a lower state, but then it's much more easy to pick it back up.

00:35:50:03 - 00:35:52:13

Luna

What does it feel like in your body?

00:35:52:15 - 00:35:53:02

Wil

What's that like.

00:35:53:02 - 00:35:58:19

Luna

When you speak in energy? But like, can you put it into physical experience? What else?

00:35:58:21 - 00:36:18:03

Wil

Yeah. Like in, you know, it drops down into my lower chakras, like my abdomen and my balls and my male parts. They, you know, they still feel really turned on. The energy has, you know, run through me and it's just like another orgasm. But that energy hasn't been spilled out.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:37:17

Luna

Okay. But for people who maybe are still trying to wrap their brains around energy, because we grew up really concrete and even though we're now like, woo adjacent or maybe fully in woo, when you say energy, when you say drops down, are you saying that you're experiencing physical pulses? Like what is the physical embodied experience of what you're having, but not just in your mind?

00:36:37:19 - 00:36:58:04

Wil

I am having like shakes, I'm having convulsions. I'm going to involuntary places where my body is just convulsing, saying then that coming in terms of the physical ejaculatory sense, so those muscles aren't firing off, okay. But everything else is totally in an involuntary motion where I'm just convulsing on the bed.

00:36:58:06 - 00:37:02:08

Luna

Okay, so it's just not ejaculation. It's basically the hands free orgasms without.

00:37:02:10 - 00:37:03:03

Wil

Exactly.

00:37:03:06 - 00:37:16:19

Luna

One of my like, funny little turn ons is like, I love sticking just this much of my finger in my asshole when I'm coming, or having it be near because I love feeling the muscle contract. I just love muscle contraction, whether it's me or a partner. Like that's my favorite part about orgasm.

00:37:16:21 - 00:37:21:00

Wil

The just Go feeling is just amazing.

00:37:21:02 - 00:37:24:20

Luna

Okay, so I derailed you. I would love to keep you going about your year of poly.

00:37:24:22 - 00:37:52:10

Wil

Yeah, my year poly I had been involved with this person that was at the kidney, and that just ended in that trajectory of being in relationship with her. We had gone to a few sex clubs. We had explored onetaste together, kind of tumultuous early because it kept bringing up issues for us that kept would trigger us and we'd just, you know, we'd have fights and things of that nature just not feel, you know, the safety of that.

00:37:52:12 - 00:38:17:07

Wil

And so for me, it was like, well, we're in this thing. This is kind of all about that. So when we broke up, I'm like, well, this is all about that meaning, like I'm giving myself this time to not be serially monogamous. I want to see what it is, you know, am I capable of inviting in this much yummy sex into my life and not have to care?

00:38:17:07 - 00:38:37:05

Wil

Take everybody you know outside the bedroom, you know, and like just by being forthright, saying, you know, I'm not looking for a relationship beyond what we already have. I mean, we're friends that want to have friends with benefits. If we're someone like from the dance community, or it feels really yummy and sexual and we want to do that, you know, great.

00:38:37:05 - 00:39:01:05

Wil

I don't have to worry about, you know, if they have something around jealousy or something like that. I've already been very forthright about that. And so it's does not become my responsibility to care take them in that regard. So it was great. I remember, you know, privileged white male that I am. I remember one time like having a week where it's like I had like a different partner every day of the week.

00:39:01:07 - 00:39:21:18

Wil

And that was super juicy. But it was kind of like the beginning of the end in some ways. It's like it was super juicy. But then it also left me feeling like this kind of vacuum around really deep connecting with people. And that's when I just really started to be aware of how much that I wanted my now wife to be that person.

00:39:21:20 - 00:39:23:00

Luna

Beautiful.

00:39:23:02 - 00:39:28:05

Wil

And so it took that exploring and stuff like that. And she was one of those lovers during that week, you know, that.

00:39:28:08 - 00:39:31:11

Luna

That's what I was gonna ask. Okay. So specifically like that person.

00:39:31:13 - 00:39:50:10

Wil

Yes. And specifically that person she was having other partners that, you know, up here where we're living now. And I was being very forthright about me having other partners, but it just came down to it, you know, over time, I took a new position up in the Bay area. And so we had reasons to kind of cross paths a little bit more.

00:39:50:13 - 00:40:07:22

Wil

I'm actually doing training up in Sacramento for this engineering thing. I was doing around solar. And in doing that, we had a chance to overlap our lives. So she would come down and visit me in Sacramento. I would, you know, and then it just dropped in more and more of something like, this is something I really want to create with this person.

00:40:07:22 - 00:40:13:00

Wil

So yeah, stars align and it's time to move. So yeah.

00:40:13:01 - 00:40:32:05

Luna

That is so funny how so often getting a specific type of desire met will then be like, oh, actually I want something different now. I think there's a lot of judgment in many places, or I rather I see many people who judge themselves for being like, shit, I don't actually like this. And I'm sort of like, oh, good, I need a new flavor now, you know, like the.

00:40:32:07 - 00:40:33:00

Wil

Show.

00:40:33:02 - 00:40:35:20

Luna

Or like, actually, I actually I do want the deeper connection with them.

00:40:35:20 - 00:40:39:12

Wil

Yeah. I never know what I don't know and I don't need to not know that.

00:40:39:14 - 00:41:00:04

Luna

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Had you had experience with deeply connected sex at that point or is this something that's newer for you in your like scholarly about sexual? I think of you as a sexual scholar now, just so you know, scholarly years like, were you able to have deeply connected sex with earlier partners or is it something that feels different and new to you now?

00:41:00:06 - 00:41:21:18

Wil

It has definitely evolved. And one of the pivotal moments for me was that when I was doing my second Tantra education course, it was a ten day course and you're randomly situated with people, and so you're going to have four sessions that this retreat is going to give you two of those sessions you're going to facilitate for others.

00:41:22:00 - 00:41:42:19

Wil

And the two of those sessions, you're going to be the receiver of those intentions from others. And I remember that as cards would have it, I had two beautiful blond women work on me at the same time, and there was something about getting together with them. And again, you know, there was no sexual intercourse, there's no penetration or anything else.

00:41:42:19 - 00:42:04:17

Wil

This was working with Tantra kind of in the pink area. Like, yes, they touched all my body, you know, they stroked me and had a little bit of ass play just with hands. And but the idea behind that is so that way I can just drop into my body because so often times in the past when I was being sexual with others, there's tension throughout your body.

00:42:04:22 - 00:42:30:08

Wil

Yeah. You know, you're not really at peace with yourself. You're going to have these zones of tension, then it's not going to let it happen. You're not going to get an erection. Or when you finally do, you might come really fast or you know, you're thinking about X, Y, and Z when really should just be here. And depending upon the circumstances, like in this case with the with this session that I had, there was nothing else on the to do list that day.

00:42:30:10 - 00:43:00:00

Wil

My thing was just to receive. And the fact that I got greeted in a huge bathtub with two beautiful goddesses that are just there to touch me and just to assure me that I'm okay, I am whole and complete and I don't need to perform. I don't need to be there for anyone. Did such a wonderful thing for my healing and nervous system that I was able to relate to, to sex and to others differently.

00:43:00:04 - 00:43:11:03

Wil

It just took it that extra step of being able to let deeper trauma kind of go, or at least kind of give me a roadmap to allowing that to go.

00:43:11:05 - 00:43:23:02

Luna

How different a place do you think the whole wide world would be if medical insurance covered some sort of session like that once a month? If we all got touched once a month and had someone hold space for us one time, you know, just physically.

00:43:23:04 - 00:43:33:05

Wil

Yeah, well, the price is good for that. You know, it's like, let's I mean, insurance won't cover massage. They won't cover the fact if they don't career like okay.

00:43:33:05 - 00:43:38:10

Luna

So you mentioned your butthole. Have you played with it in other ways or is that something that you enjoy at all?

00:43:38:12 - 00:43:57:20

Wil

My butthole and I have issues. Categorically, yes, I enjoy, but I've been penetrated by men. I have had fingers. I really have some of the best orgasms that I ever had was in my prostate. It's been stimulated, but that's only through masturbation that goes into in is it's how you really got to get the angle and everything else.

00:43:57:22 - 00:44:20:20

Wil

But that's like one of the most intense, you know, orgasms I've ever had was while my prostate was being stimulated, while I was, you know, masturbating. But my partners have never really quite ever gotten that combination, you know, of stimulating me while stimulating my prostate. So, you know, when we have had this threesome with this very pansexual individual, it's like, sure.

00:44:20:20 - 00:44:41:16

Wil

Oh, fuck. You. Okay, that wasn't the first time. I mean, you know, I went through this trajectory and it's kind of a tangent, but when I was about 14 years old, I had a friend down the street. The nearest thing we had to porn, because this is before discovering sexy magazines, was looking at the JCPenney and Sears catalogs at the bras section.

00:44:41:17 - 00:44:58:20

Wil

You know, and this is free internet, so this is the closest thing to it. And I remember like one time where hanging out, his parents were gone and his parents were always gone. And we're sitting there watching TV and he turns them in. He pulls down his pants, goes suck my cock. And I thought, oh, he's just joking.

00:44:58:20 - 00:45:27:18

Wil

Put that away, stop playing with me. And then it was like years later when I started masturbating and started fantasizing and started like, exploring my inner world around fantasy. Like that came back to me. I'm like, oh my God, I think he was serious. Oh my God, what would have happened? And the thing is, is like back in the, you know, early 80s homosexuality and it's a homosexual act was not seen in the more positive light we have today.

00:45:27:20 - 00:45:44:11

Wil

And so I'm glad that I didn't explore it. I mean, I've explored it since now that I've explored enough in my own life and know more who I am and care less what other people think. If I had done that, I had followed through of doing what he requested, I probably would have killed myself. That sexual shame.

00:45:44:13 - 00:45:45:10

Luna

Oh wow.

00:45:45:14 - 00:46:07:05

Wil

I just because I hadn't there was no I mean, as I've shared already, there was a lot of non communication around sex in my earlier years, so I would have more embodied that shame. I would internalized it more. I would have seen myself as less than, less than, less than and not worthy. And you know, there's been times when I myself judgment really strong.

00:46:07:07 - 00:46:27:21

Wil

And I have to like, look at the positive things. And I've got so much positive affirmations moving up here and I have it in my life. It just depends upon how much I want to process it, embody that. Yeah. And so you know, that's feeling a lot more positive. But I know that at a younger age, you know, I'm talking about like very early 20s.

00:46:27:23 - 00:46:39:04

Wil

It could have been really, really devastating had I done anything follow through on his request. But I never realized like, no, he was just price sexually pent up. Really curious.

00:46:39:06 - 00:46:41:02

Luna

Really totally true.

00:46:41:04 - 00:46:45:18

Wil

That's fine. You know, I have no judgments about that at all. I'm just glad I made the choices that I did.

00:46:45:21 - 00:46:47:10

Luna

Yeah, yeah.

00:46:47:12 - 00:47:05:18

Wil

You know, and so, you know, my butthole being played with, having sex with men at certain times up until recently, that's been actually quite a bit of turn on for me. But lately, you know, I've had some playtime with our with our third partner. And for some reason after that, it's just suddenly like, I don't know, it has to do with you.

00:47:05:18 - 00:47:28:01

Wil

You mentioned something in an interview about like, emotional letdown, like after like those intense session after cares. Like sometimes you go through your day afterwards, like way down. Yeah. And I have had a couple of times like that, like the first time I had anal intercourse with a woman after that, because it was such an edge for me, like three days, my energy was down.

00:47:28:03 - 00:47:49:01

Wil

Whoa. Okay. Oh, I mean, what is this deeper meaning for me in doing this act with somebody because of the things I grew up with? You know, this is uncharted territory, okay? You know, and and still, you know, it's come to anal play for myself. I'm pretty open. I think it depends upon the context where it's happening and the people I'm with.

00:47:49:06 - 00:47:57:13

Wil

Sure. You know, have some fun with that. But, like, licking my butthole doesn't quite do it for me in my mental health yet.

00:47:57:18 - 00:47:59:04

Luna

Yeah, totally.

00:47:59:04 - 00:48:07:21

Wil

But, like, if I just drop down, it's like that could lead to something, but I'm not there in terms of, like, my own process, I don't know.

00:48:07:22 - 00:48:29:23

Luna

Have you answered it beautifully? Thank you. Because it's all just about like where we are in the process at this particular moment. So I would love to hear about the parts of your body that we haven't gotten to hear from yet. Like we actually haven't gotten specifics about your cock or balls and the sensations that they enjoy. We've gotten a little bit about your energy body in your mental space, but tell us more about your physical body.

00:48:29:23 - 00:48:30:23

Luna

What does he love?

00:48:31:01 - 00:49:03:04

Wil

Well, my body loves. My body loves to touch all my body. It's very sensitive. So recently I sat at a music festival and I paid to be massaged. The practitioner was just really good. So, you know, I was relaxing on the ground and I was laying face up and she started doing things where she was at my feet, and she would lean forward and press gently on my legs, lower legs, my knees, my, you know, she's got it to my inner my thigh to inner thigh area.

00:49:03:06 - 00:49:25:15

Wil

And there's just that part that I was like, oh yeah. You know, just feeling a yumminess around that, firm pressure, you know, on my leg, you know, on my inner thigh. Places that are tense can now because I'm being pressed against another surface. Just relax and amazing.

00:49:25:20 - 00:49:35:06

Luna

What about receiving in on your, like, specifically sexy parts? Like, what's the most sensitive part of your cock? Like, how do you experience those parts of you?

00:49:35:08 - 00:49:49:22

Wil

Well, when my partner is focusing her attention with her touch, like with her lips and her tongue, you know, on the lower part of my shaft, you know, working her way up for the, what's the just below the tip. What's that called.

00:49:49:22 - 00:49:51:06

Luna

Again? The venom.

00:49:51:08 - 00:50:01:08

Wil

Yeah, that's really sensitive. One thing I've been wanting to explore is like freedom. Only stimulation to see where that granuloma only.

00:50:01:08 - 00:50:02:03

Luna

Ooh. Okay.

00:50:02:07 - 00:50:42:00

Wil

You only because that's like the inverse of orgasmic meditation. Because when you're opening, when you're laying there, you know, as a stroker, all you're doing is all you're doing. But your focus is on the clitoris with one finger. So there. And we can get into that later. But where the pendulum, you know, I want to have that kind of just that stimulation and then to see where that goes, because that takes time to work into these kinds of juicy spaces, especially if you are monkey mind is going on, you know, it takes time to allow those parts of my inner mind to calm down so I can really feel just what she's doing, you know?

00:50:42:00 - 00:51:01:14

Wil

So she's just stroking that, just that. Then if I feel tension, like in relating this right now to you, I feel tension just above my penis, just between my belly button and my cock. You know, I'm feeling this kind of tension. And so what I want to do, if she's just stroking, that is I want to feel that relax.

00:51:01:14 - 00:51:10:16

Wil

That's because if I relax that, then I can flow and things can start back. So I want to explore that more. That's a future bucket list.

00:51:10:18 - 00:51:23:22

Luna

I love that bucket list current. Is there anything that feels very relevant to your story that has to do with like, porn or nudes or sexting or things like that? Like, is that a very big part of your life at all?

00:51:24:00 - 00:51:48:12

Wil

Yeah. I mean, pornography has fit in the space of when I want turn on in my life. I might watch a little porn on the side just to get some juiciness going, because so often times with bills to pay and, you know, I have my own small business. So I got to think about all the logistics around that, you know, so having sometimes an external influence is helpful.

00:51:48:16 - 00:52:14:22

Wil

So having pornography in something of those regards is empowering. But I'm also very picky about my points. For example, I've gone through a lot of phases around porn where I really like watching blowjobs and so I mean, seeing just the attention to detail of somebody giving a beautiful blowjob is something I find extremely erotic. So something like that, especially when there's obvious turn on going in between the two people.

00:52:15:00 - 00:52:40:22

Wil

You know, I like the amateur channels and things of that nature, because ideally you're seeing people that are really there because they want to be there. They want to really experience the pleasure they're trading off with their partner. So like blow jobs are really key in regards to that. So you can actually see what's going on. Realizing how much I enjoyed watching that made me go, wait a minute, is this something that I'm exclusively watching because I want to receive that?

00:52:40:22 - 00:52:51:06

Wil

Or is that something that maybe I'm kind of curious about so I might have permission? Like maybe there's some curious about that. I will exploit that sometimes, and I have to be very enjoyable.

00:52:51:07 - 00:52:58:00

Luna

You mentioned that you are into leatherwork and rope. Does that come up in your sex life?

00:52:58:02 - 00:53:09:15

Wil

Oh yeah, my partner wants that a lot. She really likes it when I, you know, have the kit out with the ropes and the leather equipment. I mean.

00:53:09:17 - 00:53:12:07

Luna

Okay, so you play with power. We haven't mentioned this.

00:53:12:07 - 00:53:36:12

Wil

Oh, we have some power dynamics going on both in the bedroom and out. You know, it tends to be much more controlling in our day to day. But she likes it when I exert control in the bedroom. You know, ropes and leather are things that she really enjoys. She likes, you know, sensory deprivation, like, you know, blindfolds and things of that nature.

00:53:36:12 - 00:53:49:02

Wil

You know, one of the fantasies I have in the future is like sometime ever either on the massage table or tied up, but sensory deprived. So she can't hear, can't see. And then it's not just my hands on her, but several sets of hands.

00:53:49:04 - 00:53:50:04

Luna

Always.

00:53:50:06 - 00:54:09:17

Wil

So, yeah, I did that one time in a non-sexual way. She had some healing challenges to do, and it was very much a therapeutic one. So we're very clear, like this is not a sexual thing. And that was very empowering for feel all the love that people were sending her for that process. So that's a fantasy of mine in a very much sexual way.

00:54:09:19 - 00:54:35:06

Wil

You know one thing, I have a special relationship with my leather tools because I made them all myself. So I've been in one of the many lives I've lived as I used to go to Renaissance fairs. And so in the process of being involved with the society for Creative Anachronism is that I got into doing leather work. And so when I started then crossing into a new threshold of doing stuff with one taste in their sexual mastery program.

00:54:35:08 - 00:54:49:11

Wil

So for six months we'd meet once a month in San Francisco. It would be an intensive workshop weekend. And one of those things that you went into Power Dynamics and they brought in some people like Cleo Dubois. Have you heard of her?

00:54:49:13 - 00:54:50:03

Luna

No.

00:54:50:07 - 00:55:08:11

Wil

She's a legend in the of things for me. And I got her actually, the woman I was with at the time, dating at the time, we were kind of fumbling around with ropes that we can and she called her over. She just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Cleo was leading this class and then she happened to be walking around and people were doing.

00:55:08:11 - 00:55:33:20

Wil

And I was the one that was going to get tied up. And she tied up my junk like I never imagined them being tied, balls cocked, just tied up and were looking rather engorged. But it was really tight. But it wasn't uncomfortable. Yeah. And I was like, wow, this is possible. This is amazing. You know? And so yeah, having just a master who knew her stuff so well worked on me, it was just mind blowing.

00:55:33:22 - 00:55:52:09

Wil

That's just more of my background in terms of like when I'm working with my wife, my partner, you know, we're if we get into another situation, I haven't tied up anybody else in recent memory, you know, since I've been married. But like with my wife, it's like she likes being restrained. She likes all the different things. She likes being exposed.

00:55:52:12 - 00:56:02:14

Wil

Like having her butt up in the air and let me just play with her in that regard, we have to put down a splash pad because it's juicy.

00:56:02:16 - 00:56:15:11

Luna

It's amazing. So as you look back on all the experiences you've had, what were the moments that you felt most turned on or most turned off by? Is there like 1 or 2 of each maybe?

00:56:15:12 - 00:56:43:06

Wil

Yeah. The most turned on, I would say, is when I'm in a place of not knowing what's about to happen, like one example might be going to a sex party where there's a whole banquet that's potential, that's there, but it hasn't fully happened yet. That's super exciting. So which way did it go? You know, and then when you start to go into playing in those environments, it still has such a you have maybe a dozen other people there.

00:56:43:06 - 00:57:09:19

Wil

So what random thing might approach to be a part of that that has such a term? Because you're in a place where consent has been discussed, you're there with somebody that has agreed that, yeah, we're going to be having fun here. So there's that kind of giddy, turned on feeling around. Thank you. Really has me, you know, excited and turned on in spaces like that okay.

00:57:09:20 - 00:57:16:14

Luna

Yeah. Yeah. When there is safety and the feeling of possibility, what could be hotter? What about turn off.

00:57:16:16 - 00:57:28:09

Wil

Turn off conflict, self-doubt, self-criticism? I mean, like water sports or certain plays around bodily functions going out? No, that doesn't turn okay.

00:57:28:11 - 00:57:31:04

Luna

What are you hoping to explore going forward?

00:57:31:06 - 00:58:01:11

Wil

I'm hoping to explore more freedom with my partner. You know, one thing I really love about having committed one on one relationship is the ability to really drop in and, you know, even though, like we may or are currently somewhat family, you know, being able to drop into that shared space of just loving each other and to know each other so intimately, to have that further deepening permission with my partner.

00:58:01:13 - 00:58:22:12

Wil

So that way she can dive into what really turns me on. So, like in the having this conversation with you, I've realized how much I don't like, have focus being on on me in a certain way. So that's what I want. So that is part of tantra. That's part of, you know, being fully alive is where you bring your awareness to your body.

00:58:22:12 - 00:58:30:16

Wil

Yeah, I think that's one reason why blindfolds and all those other that such definitions are so powerful because we bring our awareness to that back.

00:58:30:18 - 00:58:33:13

Luna

Yeah. How are you worn a blindfold?

00:58:33:15 - 00:58:57:05

Wil

Well, there was one time, one time where there was a session when I was dating the, the detainee. And it was during a time of sexual exploration. During onetaste, I was blindfolded, I was tied up, and she brought over two other women to play with me. And that was fucking really hot. That was being touched all over.

00:58:57:06 - 00:59:18:12

Wil

Didn't know what the next sensation was going to be. And then suddenly there's a warm mouth on my male part. I was like, oh, okay, this this is great. More of that, please. You know, and so more experiences such as that, that allows for a playfulness, a sense of assuredness, like, you know, it doesn't have to go beyond this moment.

00:59:18:14 - 00:59:26:20

Luna

Okay. So we got a little preview, but if you could go back in time and give younger you a piece of sex advice, what age or ages would you pick? A what would you say?

00:59:26:22 - 01:00:02:00

Wil

Oh my God, I would definitely sit myself down, have a like a the pillow talk. We're, you know, helping me map out how the female anatomy really is. Like, where's the clitoris? There's, you know, the importance of it, the dynamics of it, the anatomy of it. I would talk to myself specifically about my self-doubts and being safe. Like, definitely always, always, always wear a condom because, you know, it's going to really mess up your future when you don't at a critical time, you know?

01:00:02:00 - 01:00:29:16

Wil

And so one where I can passionately talk to my younger self about how social structures are important to recognize, but they don't have to dominate my inner world. You know, it's important to know that somebody else might feel uncomfortable if I start talking about sex a little more openly than they're comfortable with, but then, you know, have a more forthright conversation either with them or just don't bring certain things up.

01:00:29:18 - 01:00:37:21

Luna

We're all developing the conversational ability to be like, hey, can I talk to you about x, y, z topic? Cool. You know, like that I'm really big at on chickens these days.

01:00:37:21 - 01:01:01:14

Wil

Oh yeah. It was one thing I adore about you. And this whole podcast that you have is that you are empowering people in ways that I so had to wish for my younger self. But also I wish, I wish for my daughter, for example, growing up, I want her so just empowered in life. Yeah. You know, and so, you know, that's one of those things where it's kind of like, okay, I know all this great stuff about sex in this world.

01:01:01:14 - 01:01:07:22

Wil

I'm never going to be able to share any of that with my daughter in terms of just having even a conversation. That's what's awkward. I know there's.

01:01:07:22 - 01:01:24:21

Luna

Hope for you. Okay, okay, I don't usually insert my opinion this much, but I strongly urge you to go read Beyond Birds and Bees by Bonnie J. Ruff. The only way we can have generational healing is if parents talk openly with their kids. Yeah, I mean, she might be awkward. Everyone's going to be awkward, but, like, go read the book.

01:01:24:23 - 01:01:28:00

Wil

Yeah. No, I will check that book out. But, like.

01:01:28:02 - 01:01:53:00

Luna

Aren't safe. They're just a safe spot for kids to come. The more that I've gotten older, obviously I'm not a parent. I only have parents. But I started talking to my parents about stuff and I just finally realized, like, they're fucking awkward and like, because I want them to be a certain level of close with me. I finally just started talking about the work that I'm doing and like, they are awkward because they're in this whole American narrative of like, oh, we have to be awkward about it because we're not right.

01:01:53:00 - 01:02:03:19

Luna

But it's like, I can change it. You can change it, you know, like we're from the same place. Like we can just choose differently. And if you don't think it's awkward, your daughter will probably adjust. Mean I don't. I can't speak for.

01:02:03:19 - 01:02:23:08

Wil

Her, but I know she is an amazing being. I know she'll adjust. I know her and her mom are already having these conversations and it's evolving. It's slowly but surely. There was this one little story. So I told you, I go to music festivals, right? And so I took my daughter when she was almost two years old, to this thing up in Grass Valley called World Music Fest.

01:02:23:10 - 01:02:41:11

Wil

It's like a five day event, so showers need to happen, right? It was just me and her at two years old, and so I had to take her to the men's side where the shower stalls and everything else, and everything's partitioned, but I'm six feet and above. It's open space, right? So I'm getting her naked, getting ready to take shower.

01:02:41:11 - 01:03:04:11

Wil

I'm there. We're going to take a shower. And she says very loudly, daddy, you got a penis? I got a China. And snickering from around me from the other stalls, it just melted my heart. I'm like, okay, I'm not there yet, but we'll get there in time. It's kind of be acceptable and everything's fine. But, I mean, I grew up in a house of silence.

01:03:04:11 - 01:03:26:15

Wil

I introduced the hug to my family. That's how close down my family gets around sex. And, my mom being in our in was probably one of the main things around having that bombshell happen early in my life where fortunately, we could have a bonding moment and talk about, you know, STDs and things of that nature. Yeah, I remember one time my dad was having some serious medical issues.

01:03:26:15 - 01:03:48:11

Wil

We were in San Francisco, and my mom and I are out wandering around the city, went into a store and was a very handsome black man. And my mom turned to me. As we're walking out, she's like, oh, okay. I'm like, I just looked at her like, mom, you know, I'm really glad to hear that. But it's the first I've ever heard that you've actually, like, had any degree of wandering.

01:03:48:11 - 01:03:57:11

Wil

I am like, yay for that. Yeah, you were shut down. Now that makes me sad, but all right, very little turn on. It's good.

01:03:57:12 - 01:04:13:23

Luna

Yeah. Well, also, just to be very clear, there's a big difference between parents being a safe resource for kids and like, you know, being a friend or telling them about turn ons, too. So it's just different context for every person in every family too. So yeah, I can understand how you might feel awkward if you think that that's what the sex talk with your daughter is going to be like.

01:04:14:01 - 01:04:18:04

Luna

I will thank you so much for being on sex stories.

01:04:18:06 - 01:04:23:16

Wil

So thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor and a privilege and a blessing. Thank you.

01:04:23:18 - 01:04:25:18

Luna

Do you have a sex question for me?

01:04:25:20 - 01:04:37:06

Wil

Do you have any juicy stories from Orange Orchards experiences? Because when the flowers are in bloom and the orange orchards, it's usually a good smell to have around you.