top of page

Happy Gay Christian: Casey’s Update


30s gay bisexual white cis male.




00:00:00:02 - 00:00:05:07

Luna

Oh, this is such a special treat. We have Casey back to tell us some more details. Hi. How are you?


00:00:05:09 - 00:00:06:20

Casey

Hey, how are you? I'm doing great.


00:00:06:22 - 00:00:15:11

Luna

Yay! Good. So there's some stuff that we need to catch up on. For example, your love of Deep Throat, which we really didn't get to.


00:00:15:12 - 00:00:39:10

Casey

So I really like deep learning. I originally was sort of turned off to the idea from what I had seen in porn, but when I discovered that during a 69 year at the right angle to be pretty deep, I was like, wait a minute, I actually like this pretty good. And when I first figured out how to hang my head over the edge of the bed so that he could do it that way.


00:00:39:15 - 00:00:41:16

Casey

Yeah, that was pretty awesome.


00:00:41:16 - 00:00:42:16

Luna

Amazing.


00:00:42:18 - 00:01:02:01

Casey

I really like that. I think like we talked about, my partner and I are a little bit on different paces with moving into new novelty area. So he doesn't always jump at the chance to do that. But when he wants to, I really like it. And I think it's super fun. I think because, you know, we're exclusive with each other and he gets to come down my throat, that's pretty exciting too.


00:01:02:02 - 00:01:07:02

Luna

Okay, that was like, okay, okay, okay. So wait, and have you been on both sides or you were receiver.


00:01:07:04 - 00:01:24:21

Casey

I have been receiver. I want to try being the giver and having him hang his head over the edge of the bed like that. He just doesn't love oral as much as I do, you know, as give as much. And he certainly will. And I think, you know, when I come to him with a legitimate idea and a, you know, respectful preposition, he's like, okay, right.


00:01:24:21 - 00:01:28:23

Casey

Like, I don't think you'll I don't think he'll turn it down. It just hasn't been the moment yet.


00:01:29:01 - 00:01:37:20

Luna

Yeah, yeah. Having someone come down my throat is a great fantasy of mine that I've not yet achieved. Can you feel it? What's it like? Tell us.


00:01:37:22 - 00:01:55:05

Casey

Well, you know, once you get all the way past your oropharynx, there's not a lot of sensation back there. When he did it, I. My head's upside down and I'm holding his hips. And I pushed him back just enough as he was coming, so I, like, was catching it on the back of my throat and I could feel it.


00:01:55:06 - 00:01:59:04

Casey

And taste it. And it's incredible.


00:01:59:06 - 00:02:04:13

Luna

Too. That seems like a pro move. Did you just like, no, to do that because of your anatomy?


00:02:04:17 - 00:02:17:01

Casey

Yeah. Once you get past the epiglottis and stuff at the back of your throat, you're not feeling a whole lot. So I knew that's how I wanted to feel it when he came. And it was like gobs. Five gallons.


00:02:17:06 - 00:02:32:03

Luna

Wow. I'm also really curious to get my specific curiosity with someone coming in my throat is I'm just like, how could I if they stayed all the way in? Could I feel the pulsation?


00:02:32:05 - 00:02:40:09

Casey

Short answer yes, I could feel that. You could? Yeah. I wasn't like trying to feel it with my hand from the outside, but I feel him moving inside.


00:02:40:09 - 00:02:47:02

Luna

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And have you put your hand, like, on your throat. Well receive it like to feel that part ever. I've done that a little bit.


00:02:47:04 - 00:02:49:19

Casey

Not that I've heard. Yeah I do want to do that too.


00:02:49:22 - 00:03:10:23

Luna

And that's just the part of me that's just very curious about, I guess, sensations. Oh, here's a question that I have. So we're recording this and I have Covid round two just a little bit. Just a little hint of mild Covid this time. Something that is that makes absolutely no sense. But is my current real experience is my sense of taste and smell are much more heightened than they've ever been.


00:03:10:23 - 00:03:26:15

Luna

Yep. Opposite. So last year. So I lost my sense of taste and smell originally when I was like 16 and got mono really bad and it's been like, back at you, it's better when I don't eat sugar. And then when I got Covid last year, like lemons and garlic have not gone back to tasting the same, although I haven't had a lemon.


00:03:26:15 - 00:03:41:21

Luna

Oh, we will go test a lemon today. But when I was sick the first day I like woke up and I was like, wow, I smell horrible. Must have been bad night sweats. And then I was like trying to feed myself food. And I was like, I need something bland, maybe a pancake. And then I like, couldn't eat like a pancake was too rich.


00:03:41:21 - 00:03:59:19

Luna

And to, you know, stinky, like it was too much. Yeah. So like all that is way to say, do you smell stuff when you're like, I never thought about, like, smells and people's sensitivity to oral or deep throat like, have you ever had, like, smell be a big part of your sexual experience, especially with the learning related or not?


00:03:59:21 - 00:04:07:17

Casey

I mean, when I'm Deep Throat and I'm upside down like that, my nose is like, you know, in his taint.


00:04:07:19 - 00:04:08:02

Luna

Yeah.


00:04:08:06 - 00:04:32:13

Casey

And it's just the smell of like, we're clean when we do this. Right? Like. And I wouldn't want to do it if he hadn't recently showered. So it just smells like clean. Man. My man smell. That's awesome. It's good. And has a smell to like. I think we all know that, like, come like comes. It's it's difficult to eat the smell of cum, but it's like this, you know, musty warm, sticky smell.


00:04:32:13 - 00:04:35:02

Casey

And so that smells going on down there too.


00:04:35:04 - 00:04:51:05

Luna

Do you like the smell? I'm like, I don't know if I could put it as a like, I think I do like it because it's related to coming, I don't know, I don't want it to get musty and well, sometimes I do want it to get musty and dry on me, but maybe not the smell part. And now I'm like, fuck, have I just been so thinking, I don't know it, I don't know.


00:04:51:05 - 00:04:52:07

Luna

Hopefully people would tell me.


00:04:52:13 - 00:05:08:09

Casey

I like cum in general. Yeah, for a little bit. Right? Like when it's still warm and we've just done this and it is like part of the immediate experience. I like it, but after a few minutes I'm going to do all that.


00:05:08:11 - 00:05:12:13

Luna

With your previous partner. Did you ever play with the learning?


00:05:12:15 - 00:05:35:08

Casey

She liked to Deep Throat just fine. I never loved receiving oral that much with her. I thought about that and whether it was because the experience of oral is a little more like, you're down there and I'm up here, I could get in my head more, and then occasionally I might think about being with a guy or something, and then I would feel shame about that kind of thought.


00:05:35:10 - 00:05:55:01

Casey

And so it took energy for me to, like, stay present in these. And I'm not sure if that's the reason that I didn't really want to do oral a lot, or if it was because she just wasn't as good at it because. But I can tell you, it's a lot different now. And, you know, maybe my current partner, you know, he's got a penis, or maybe he just gets how it's supposed to feel a lot.


00:05:55:01 - 00:06:07:22

Casey

But I remember of contention with my wife because her partner's in the past, I thought she was really good at giving blowjobs, and she expected to be able to make me come that way. But in the whole time we were married, I never came that way.


00:06:08:00 - 00:06:08:18

Luna

Okay.


00:06:08:20 - 00:06:12:14

Casey

So I think it was just something unique to that experience. Yeah.


00:06:12:16 - 00:06:22:10

Luna

Well, it also sounds like you weren't trying hard to, like, make yourself come at the mouth of her blowjob, you know, like like it. Was it perhaps not a priority.


00:06:22:12 - 00:06:44:10

Casey

While it was an objective for her and like I mentioned, you know, meantime, I didn't come. It's kind of a tense experience because she immediately was would make that about her. And either her inability or her inadequacy or my same sex attraction. And I'm not really interested in her because I'm not sure. Right. So she would make that mean a lot of things if I didn't come.


00:06:44:12 - 00:06:45:12

Luna

With that is quite a mind.


00:06:45:12 - 00:07:05:06

Casey

Fuck yeah. So there was a lot of meaning making going on, and so I just had to tell her I just don't care for it that much. And it didn't make a lot of sense there. But I was just like, I love having sex. Like, let's just do that. And so we would do it sometimes it's like a warm up, but once you kind of release the idea that I needed to come that way, it got a lot easier and we just didn't do it a whole bunch.


00:07:05:11 - 00:07:23:00

Luna

I mean, doesn't that make sex better all the time? When someone like, don't get me wrong, I want to come, but when that's the only thing we're doing, then there's no time for me to actually just like, do the enjoying in between. And that's what makes me come. I would rather get edged all session and cum once. Well, what do you want to go next?


00:07:23:03 - 00:07:26:20

Luna

Ex-gay therapy kind of related to the blowjob stuff.


00:07:26:22 - 00:07:54:14

Casey

Yeah, I think so. I think my experience of the whole ex-gay community is, it's a really interesting journey, you know? So I grew up in a really conservative Christian denomination, and the word homosexuality is never used without the word abomination in that. So I grew up, you know, hating this part of myself and went through a pretty significant season of it.


00:07:54:14 - 00:08:20:15

Casey

Just you call it passive suicidality because I felt like I couldn't be gay and be loved by God or anybody else, and I couldn't love God and be a good Christian and be my actual self. So there was just a lot of internal turmoil around that. But when my wife and I met and got married and she was willing to accept me despite, you know, this brokenness that I felt I had, I felt like things had come full circle.


00:08:20:15 - 00:08:42:18

Casey

And certainly this was just, you know, meant to be and that God would take care of me despite my struggle. Right. Like that, I had found the right person to walk with me through this, and it was after meeting her that I wound up ex-gay ministry that was sort of specific to this struggle is the word that I learned to use.


00:08:42:20 - 00:08:47:15

Casey

It's true struggle, right? Trying to stuff part of yourself away is a struggle.


00:08:47:17 - 00:08:48:16

Luna

It doesn't work.


00:08:48:18 - 00:09:11:06

Casey

If you haven't seen the documentary Pray Away on Netflix, it's one that I'd recommend to anybody who wants some perspective on this, because I wound up a part of one of the largest and sort of flagship ministries like this in the country, and it's featured in that documentary, and I felt initially really refreshed. I was really nervous about going right.


00:09:11:06 - 00:09:32:19

Casey

It was kind of a scary to take. But then once I was there and of course, this ministry is full of a bunch of men and women who come from the same sort of biblical worldview. And this is not like our parents sent our teenagers to this scary ex-gay conversion, right? It's not like that. This is adults and some teenagers, but everyone has chosen to be here as part of this church ministry.


00:09:32:21 - 00:09:51:15

Casey

And we would meet weekly and talk about the way our past week had been. And so we would share a number and he would ask us, you know, okay, what's your number for this week? And 1 or 0 would be like, I didn't have any struggles with gay thoughts. I didn't watch any gay porn. I didn't, you know, have any hookups.


00:09:51:15 - 00:10:15:18

Casey

I was pretty straight this week, basically, all ten would be like, you know, I hooked up and had sex with someone and so you'd kind of share your number with the group in a small group, then get to just hear stories from everyone and offer support. And I'm sure from your listeners who don't come from a Christian background think, oh my gosh, that sounds horrible and shame me.


00:10:15:20 - 00:10:50:06

Casey

And somewhere underneath there, there is the belief that this is wrong and we need to be stuffing ourselves away to be more like Jesus. However, when you're in that paradigm, this felt like the first place ever that I really could be myself, because everybody here understood this internal dilemma I was having. They all got it right, whether they had ever lived an openly gay lifestyle, or if they were like me and had had these desires in secret their whole life and were in a straight relationship, everybody just understood.


00:10:50:08 - 00:11:31:15

Casey

And so in that sense, it was really freeing and I felt like I had found my people. Right? Oh my gosh, we get it. And so for several years I was going to this ministry and making some friends. The challenge was it was anonymous, almost like AA so you're only allowed to share first names and you're not allowed to give any of your personal information, which in retrospect, I think is funny because, yeah, if the truth is that we're not made this way and we're just, you know, brokenness and we can be healed from this, then why do we need anonymity to keep everyone from falling back into their ways and hooking up?


00:11:31:15 - 00:11:43:12

Casey

Right. The idea that we need anonymity to protect everyone here is as if we believe that you can't help yourself. And maybe, in fact, you're made this way. Do you know what I mean? I feel like that whole.


00:11:43:17 - 00:11:53:04

Luna

Yeah. And heaven forbid you should connect outside of where there is powerful watchers and maybe, I don't know, support each other in being your ourselves and following your actual desire.


00:11:53:06 - 00:12:13:14

Casey

But if they believe that if you do have those outside relationships, you're probably going to end up having sex with them. What are you saying? Believe about homosexuality? Yeah, well, I guess we believe it actually is something we can't get away from. Yeah, and that sort of flies in the face of their whole dogma. So that didn't really dawn on me until later.


00:12:13:18 - 00:12:15:08

Luna

Yeah, well, of course not.


00:12:15:10 - 00:12:39:01

Casey

And so you can make some relationships, but they only exist inside this little micro world. And so when you're not in that micro world, you still are floating around in space feeling like you don't belong anywhere. And then it was after I had left that city, in a way, from that ministry that things fell apart with my wife and I moved into my relationship with my new partner, and I reached out to the director and told him what had been happening.


00:12:39:03 - 00:13:11:02

Casey

And, you know, this was not a place where anyone was ever directly shameful or condemning. It was a very loving atmosphere, right? They just come from a different worldview about what God wants for our lives. So it's difficult because I, on one hand, feel like that ideology is damaging to a lot of people who don't feel like they can be themselves, and they grow up feeling like they have to contort their insides to be what other people want, or to be what other people say God wants.


00:13:11:04 - 00:13:37:14

Casey

However, when that was the ideology I already had and I came to this group of people, I felt welcomed and loved and validated and cared for. So I can't really demonize all the individuals in it, and I can't demonize their desire to help people. I can just say that the ideology at the core of it is flawed. Yeah, and it makes for some problematic stuff down the road.


00:13:37:16 - 00:14:00:00

Casey

So yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. I think, you know, the documentary that I mentioned, you know, it pretty much demonizes the whole thing, which is a perspective that you can take. I won't disagree that it was damaging in that, you know, a lot of the things I learned, there were probably things that kept me bound inside a toxic marriage because I felt like I couldn't leave and that, you know, I was so fortunate to be married.


00:14:00:00 - 00:14:06:16

Casey

I was one of the only ones in the group that was married. So I would hold up as this example of like, look what God can do if you obey him.


00:14:06:20 - 00:14:07:11

Luna

Oh, wow.


00:14:07:12 - 00:14:11:15

Casey

You know, it's carrying a lot of a lot of stuff.


00:14:11:17 - 00:14:38:16

Luna

I wonder how many of us have felt deeply wrong or disconnected or just other because of our sexual selves, because, like, I never had the particular like religious, you can't be gay thing, but I have my whole life had the sort of like, you're not supposed to be that sexual still, you know, and I totally can relate to my own versions of finding these, like, snippets of community where I'm like, oh, this part of me is okay here.


00:14:38:16 - 00:14:55:20

Luna

I don't have to be. And then only later being like, all right, but there are all these other parts where my full self, it's still not my full self being welcome. And actually I want I want friends, family and community where my full self is welcome. And I really just I wonder how many of us really share that experience, especially related to sex.


00:14:55:22 - 00:15:14:14

Casey

Absolutely. I think a lot of people, I think so many things are pushed into the dark and into the closet. Yeah, I think you mentioned that acceptance. I think with my partner, you know, in our bedroom is the only place I've ever felt wholly accepted that way as my whole self. And it's so liberating and I'm so grateful to him for that.


00:15:14:16 - 00:15:36:05

Casey

I think we find ourselves caught in a weird place now because I still consider myself a Christian. I still believe a lot of the things I was raised with, but I had to reconcile the reality of my life and how good that it is with all the things I once believed about how terrible it would be, and evil and wrong.


00:15:36:07 - 00:16:03:09

Casey

And I've come to a place now where I feel closer to God than I ever have. But it's like I'm can't be a good Christian because I'm too gay and I'm not a good gay guy, because there are pieces of the stereotypical gay lifestyle that I don't participate in or don't feel comfortable doing because we're approaching this relationship as a, you know, more, quote, traditional monogamous relationship.


00:16:03:11 - 00:16:21:18

Casey

Yeah. And it's not to say they're not plenty of gay people who do that. It's just we feel a little bit still between two worlds. Yeah. And trying to figure out, you know, are there other gay guys like us who aren't on Grindr and having hookups all the time? Yeah, and that's why I find those, you know, other gay parents who want to just hang out.


00:16:21:20 - 00:16:22:11

Casey

Yeah.


00:16:22:13 - 00:16:23:21

Luna

Yeah, absolutely.


00:16:23:23 - 00:16:37:02

Casey

Outside the scope of the podcast, probably. But that's just the where are we? The moment we kind of find ourselves in is like we are feel really wonderful and happy in our little world, but we're having trouble expanding that to any community we feel like we don't really belong.


00:16:37:04 - 00:16:56:05

Luna

Yes, that community witnessing is important, and the community connection and the sharing like that stuff does matter for humans. And can I ask, how did you reconcile? Are you part of a new congregation that is like gay accepting or a how could just for anyone out there who is Christian, who maybe is in a similar position? I would love to hear more about that part of your journey.


00:16:56:07 - 00:17:35:02

Casey

Yeah. I mean, it took me a long time. It it was probably a good year of just therapy and trying to learn to trust my own experience of the world and listen to my own feelings and learn that God really always loved me the way that I was. And in that I sort of was able to right the ship on my own personal spirituality and then began asking, well, where do we belong in terms of like a faith community, you know, because it also in an interesting position, you know, being somebody who holds to the person of Jesus and who he was, and I believe he wanted us to be in the world.


00:17:35:07 - 00:18:07:23

Casey

I wasn't looking for a church where we just sort of throw out the whole of the Bible as anything important, and there really aren't any rules, and it's all just free love for everybody. And it gets totally loose theologically, right? Like, I still felt like a place where there was some parameters on this theological space and at the same time could not go back to the legalism and strict rule, adherence to the law, and condemned nation and shame that I was in before.


00:18:08:00 - 00:18:45:12

Casey

And there are a lot of churches now. I found that they're really good at making a pretty publicly acceptable, all socially liberal looking exterior to bring lots of people in the door. But lurking under that is some pretty regressive theology about a lot of things that they aren't showing publicly because it's not popular anymore. I bumped into that a couple times, but then finally found a community where I feel like they are still committed to the person of Jesus and following God the way that I aspire to.


00:18:45:14 - 00:19:08:09

Casey

And at the same time, remember that Jesus never excluded anybody, not anybody. Yeah. And that that is the kind of community I want to be a part of. And it's been really refreshing to see that that exists, because I came up believing that that was a real place. You couldn't really have God and a diverse group of people and, you know, diverse sexuality and whatever else, they couldn't coexist.


00:19:08:11 - 00:19:11:14

Casey

But that's not true. And I'm grateful at that place now.


00:19:11:16 - 00:19:20:12

Luna

Beautiful. Yeah. The more that I do learn about Jesus, the more I'm like, he sounds like a lover. Just saying. Like a lover, not a father. I don't know.


00:19:20:14 - 00:19:45:07

Casey

It's just a shame now to feel like, you know, I think on your podcast I can probably speak openly about this, the sort of flagrant rise in this Christian nationalism that is sweeping our country and causing a lot of problems is the furthest thing from the person of Jesus I've ever seen. Yeah, but yeah, he gets co-opted by all of these movements, and it is really hard and painful to watch because I want other people to know the Jesus that I know.


00:19:45:10 - 00:19:57:03

Casey

Yeah, but there's a bunch of crap getting in the way of anybody reaching that Jesus because of the picture painted and the things that his followers do.


00:19:57:09 - 00:20:22:06

Luna

Totally. Also, just for anyone listening and or for you, there's a book that I read called God and Sex, I Believe, by Michael Coogan. Wildly fascinating, wildly fascinating to be taken through some of the specific passages that have been used as kind of like evidence against, basically against sex in all these different ways, and to just hear the different parts that are broken down by a biblical scholar who was like, super duper into it.


00:20:22:06 - 00:20:36:15

Luna

And I'm very curious to get kind of like more into that world. Like I read that book and I had to stop myself from, like, going down a theology rabbit hole because now I'm like, well, I should just learn everything about theology, and then I'll come back to sex. And I was like, okay, life is only so long.


00:20:36:17 - 00:20:56:07

Casey

So if there's anybody listening to the podcast that is like me and is like trying to figure out their sexuality, but feels like they can't because of whatever religious rules. I read a really good book called Changing Our Minds by David Gucci, who's like a biblical ethicist. So he's very committed to the ethics of the Bible and takes it seriously.


00:20:56:07 - 00:21:07:16

Casey

And at the same time really wanted to address the issue of homosexuality and the way that the church should be loving and treating people who are homosexual.


00:21:07:18 - 00:21:09:22

Luna

So a lot of us. Yeah.


00:21:10:00 - 00:21:26:01

Casey

Well, it was excellent. It was really good. And I think it would have been a good bridge builder for me, for people who are still in my life who have not come around to the idea of me being gay, right, and able to say, you know, your beliefs are your own and I'm not going to run from that.


00:21:26:03 - 00:21:46:22

Casey

At the same time, consider looking at this book because maybe there's a perspective you haven't seen. And then the other one is a book called Jonathan Love, David, which is about the story of David and Jonathan in the Bible that has been framed a lot of different ways. It was framed in my previous worldview as really just a model of male friendship that was certainly not homosexual.


00:21:47:00 - 00:22:14:00

Casey

In different readings and interpretations, it's quite possible that Jonathan Martin and David were gay. The type of gay relationship that maybe I'm having today with my partner was not something that was even a consideration in that time. In history. We don't talk about monogamous homosexual relationships in the Bible because they just were not something to be considered in the way that they are today, in the same way that flat screen TVs were not something considered in the Bible either, for any.


00:22:14:00 - 00:22:18:20

Luna

Kind of marriage, like hundreds of years ago, like modern marriage is not what it was back then.


00:22:18:22 - 00:22:26:10

Casey

Yes. So what's up with that? We're really good. If there's anybody out there who is dealing with reconciling their faith and their sexuality.


00:22:26:12 - 00:22:45:16

Luna

That's so cool. Okay, I don't want to put stories in your mouth, but I am curious if you feel like there is any sort of link between the kind of like upbringing you had that professed this monogamous model of relationship and sort of the codependence stuff that you experience. Like, I would love to hear you speak a little bit about that.


00:22:45:18 - 00:23:22:20

Casey

I'm glad you asked. I do feel like the model of marriage that I learned in the church contributed to my codependency, because it put all the responsibility on me as the man to like to lead my wife correctly. And when I went to a couple of church leaders at different times when my wife was really struggling emotionally with some high reactivity and some destructive behaviors that were really damaging to me and to our home environment, I was basically told if you would read the Bible more and lead your wife better, she wouldn't be doing these things.


00:23:22:22 - 00:23:40:09

Casey

And so it put all the responsibility on me for her feelings, which is something I already grew up with just from, you know, being sort of trained in the codependency by my family environment. So that's compounded with the church teaching really just made me feel like I had to keep all the plate spinning, and it was all on me.


00:23:40:14 - 00:23:50:12

Casey

And I felt, you know, like I needed to take care of her and lead her in. All these would allow me any room to experience or share my own emotions or feel my own feelings.


00:23:50:12 - 00:24:13:15

Luna

Even that piece right there. I wonder how many people, how many men, especially out in the world, feel, but how many people in any way, God, when we cannot share our feelings, when our own feelings don't have space to like, get examined or explored or anything, there's no room for desire, and then there's no room for mutual desire or connection, or the type of growth that lets a human feel like lit up and like life is worth living.


00:24:13:15 - 00:24:15:13

Luna

At least my own personal experience.


00:24:15:13 - 00:24:45:09

Casey

So that's a great way to phrase it. I think it can be especially hard for men who find themselves in a codependent relationship where they're being mistreated, because there's so much shame around allowing yourself to be treated badly. Like, you know, the idea that I was supposed to reveal that my wife was breaking shit and calling me names and being physical violent, that was not something I thought I could reveal.


00:24:45:09 - 00:24:52:00

Casey

And some of that's my own pride. I can own that piece that I was really just too proud to admit that it was bad.


00:24:52:00 - 00:24:58:12

Luna

But where does pride come from? Socialization. Like the things that we are proud of. It's part of the whole everything.


00:24:58:14 - 00:25:27:00

Casey

And I was taught to value all that, you know, strong husband stuff. So I didn't feel like I could even be honest about what was going on. And it kept me silent, along with all that internalized shame about my homosexuality and having lived through a broken home, my parents were divorced when I was young. I was so committed to the idea of staying married for my own sake.


00:25:27:05 - 00:25:57:20

Casey

And because divorce is only permitted in a couple of circumstances explicitly in the Bible. So even after things had gotten really, truly dangerous with my wife, I went to church people and explained that I needed to file for divorce and was basically told that they wouldn't support me because it wasn't a permitted criteria, right? So my own well-being was not enough to justify ending my marriage.


00:25:57:22 - 00:26:04:17

Luna

I mean, what do we have on this earth, if not our well-being as a physical, literal being? Like, what else do we have?


00:26:04:19 - 00:26:25:22

Casey

Right? And I think that's just some of the pretty warped. Now, I don't believe the Bible would ever endorse that position, but yeah, I read a lot of scripture and rhetoric that said, the Bible says you got to be married unless, you know, there's upright infidelity. And, you know, my situation didn't fit any of those specific context. So it just wasn't for me to get divorced.


00:26:25:22 - 00:26:39:00

Casey

But I can tell you a couple of years later that my kids and I are all thriving, even though we had to let go of the perfect family that I had been striving so hard after.


00:26:39:02 - 00:26:57:04

Luna

I want to just highlight that. Like I want to actually highlight that you said you and your family are now thriving because the shape changed and you let it. That I think is awesome. I also want to talk about this word infidelity for a second. It's like we only ever consider the use of that word as it relates to sex, which is very funny to me.


00:26:57:06 - 00:27:17:21

Luna

But the origin of late Middle English in the senses of lack of faith and disloyalty from the Old French infidelity, infidelity, so not faithful. So for me, infidelity, like, if you are not going to be faithful to the commitment, it's just about sex. It's about upholding that whole everything, which I'm sure you know, I don't mean to speak to you about.


00:27:17:21 - 00:27:25:05

Luna

It is so interesting how these words are used commonly in like, I love the nerdy language noodle when we give ourselves time.


00:27:25:06 - 00:27:55:15

Casey

I just want to tell anybody listening who might be in a relationship where they're not being treated well, that it doesn't matter what other stuff you've been taught, you don't deserve that. And it is okay and right for you to own your own power in that relationship and leave if you need to. And if you find yourself resenting the other person for the way they're treating you, it's time for you to stop asking yourself why they're doing what they're doing, and start asking yourself why you are tolerating that behavior.


00:27:55:17 - 00:28:15:06

Casey

And what do you believe about yourself? You hear because there is something that relationship is doing something for you or you wouldn't be there at all. And in my case, the relationship was propping up my sense of self because it allowed me to be the husband and father and all the things that I thought I needed to be to be loved and accepted by the world.


00:28:15:07 - 00:28:32:06

Casey

So whatever that bad relationship is doing for you, it's time to examine that and ask yourself, what is keeping me here? And is it worth the way I'm being treated? And if you're tolerating unacceptable behavior, it's time to make a change so that you can live your own life.


00:28:32:08 - 00:28:35:20

Luna

Yes, we deserve that. Thank you.


00:28:35:22 - 00:28:38:23

Casey

I've learned a lot in therapy. Go to therapy also go to therapy.


00:28:38:23 - 00:28:41:08

Luna

I want people to go to therapy so bad.


00:28:41:11 - 00:29:02:18

Casey

So I actually cut out of a eMDR session today right before this. Okay? And I can't even say enough about that. It's so powerful. It has allowed me to jump back into old feelings and events that I didn't even realize were affecting me so much, and unpack that. So I just I can't say enough about therapy in general and about eMDR.


00:29:02:18 - 00:29:19:22

Luna

I'm really curious about exploring eMDR myself, because I've been learning a lot about the different modalities. And like the Huberman lab does, kind of a neuroscience, like deep dive on IT and therapy stuff. And but also in there and I have a couple friends who've had incredible success. You know, I still have my little route that needs to get explored.


00:29:19:22 - 00:29:36:03

Luna

I think of this not the girl thing, because I've been going on dates and it was like going so well for a minute, and then it's like, I'm like, oh, these are the same patterns. And it's like, I think I'm doing different stuff. And so that just is a signal that it's probably older than I realize in terms of my developmental stuff.


00:29:36:05 - 00:29:46:08

Luna

Do you want to talk a little bit about the things that you did, like in heterosexual sex? We didn't really talk about that a lot or the things that you didn't. We heard a little bit about blowjobs.


00:29:46:10 - 00:30:12:08

Casey

So in sex with my wife, I liked having connected sex then too. So I liked when it was, you know, emotional and exciting. I liked the challenge of trying to make sure she had an orgasm every time, just learning over time. What? I guess her buttons were right. The things that made it special for her and we never did try anal at all.


00:30:12:10 - 00:30:35:19

Casey

Right at the end, I think she kind of got it into her head that I must want to do anal because I'm attracted to men, right? But at the time I didn't really have that much interest, and I was so unfamiliar with it, like I didn't want to deal with the mess and I didn't want like, I just, I at the time, I was not ready to try it, but it took a while to convince her, like, you know, we don't need to do that.


00:30:35:19 - 00:31:00:13

Casey

Like, I'm not I'm not chomping at the bit to do anal just because I am into dudes. I liked eating her out. It wasn't something that I thought I would like at the beginning, and it needed to be like we talked about smells are not good, so things need to be cleaned and sweaty. But I didn't mind the experience of doing that, and I loved how it made her feel and how just exciting the whole experience would be.


00:31:00:15 - 00:31:05:04

Luna

You didn't mind it, but but it wasn't something you necessarily like, craved or looked forward to.


00:31:05:06 - 00:31:26:17

Casey

I wouldn't say that I craved it. I loved the experience of making her feel good more than I loved the experience of actually performing on her, but the whole thing was positive, like I was doing something I didn't want to do. I was happy, it just wasn't my favorite thing. I know some guys really, I think, get off on the whole idea of doing it, and that's like just part of arousal.


00:31:26:17 - 00:31:43:04

Luna

The idea, the smell, the taste. I do remember the first time that I met someone where I was like, really? Like I was suspicious of it, too, because my experience up until that point had just been people kind of being negative about vaginas. And so I was when I met someone, I was like, I thought he was fucking with me.


00:31:43:06 - 00:32:07:00

Casey

That's funny. Sex with women. I can say, honestly that I enjoyed it. Right? If you asked me today if I would go back and not do what I'm doing now, I'd be like, no thanks. I definitely feel better and happier with my partner now. Yeah, let's say he gets a car wreck, you know, two days from now, heaven forbid.


00:32:07:02 - 00:32:14:14

Casey

Right? But like in the hypothetical where he is not around, I would not go find a woman, I don't think. Yeah, I would probably be with a man.


00:32:14:16 - 00:32:19:20

Luna

Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. Being truly monogamous means you really have to pick.


00:32:19:22 - 00:32:43:09

Casey

Yeah. We've made our choices. Yeah. It's funny, we've talked about the idea of a threesome or something. Just because trying to be honest about anything we've fantasized about or what we really want out of our sex life. And I would entertain a lot of ideas if it meant more intimacy and closeness with him. Yeah, right. Like if the experience was going to bring us closer, I would do a lot of different things.


00:32:43:11 - 00:33:05:22

Casey

But the risk of a rift or a rupture when involving another person to me right now feels too high. I would not want to interpret what we've got. So for that reason, I'm not passionate about any of that stuff enough to, you know, to not take it off the table. Because right now what I'm excited about is being with him.


00:33:06:00 - 00:33:11:20

Casey

And if that means I don't ever have a threesome, I'll be fine because I get my person.


00:33:11:22 - 00:33:31:17

Luna

Exactly. That is so wise, and I really feel like there are stages to every relationship, and it really sounds like you guys are still in the kind of like initial, you know, not the very initial one like you had. But, threesomes with partners, I feel like are for way down the line when, like, security's all secure and you're just like, we're exploring.


00:33:31:17 - 00:34:01:02

Luna

I don't know that I'm speaking from a place of just listening to others and my own. I've never really had a great threesome with my own partner, but I definitely have been the person that was like, okay, babe, we could try it, you know? And and it wasn't ideal because it was pushed and it was more about like checking off the item from the list rather than like, is this an experience that's going to bring us closer together and actually give us the gratification that we're consciously seeking from it, which you can only do that with a conscious partner.


00:34:01:04 - 00:34:16:14

Casey

Right? And I know inside myself I don't need to have an experience of a threesome. I do need to have intimacy and closeness with my forever partner. Yes, I do, without like a few things. I'll be just absolutely no.


00:34:16:14 - 00:34:26:00

Luna

You've said that you and he can come at the same time, and there's a secret to that. Like you could do it on purpose.


00:34:26:02 - 00:34:54:21

Casey

It's always kind of a challenge to see if we can time it like that, right? Yeah. One of my favorites is to, like, put him on his left side with his right leg up, and then I do him and can reach his dick while I fuck him. And then I am how we're going. And as I start to get closer, I can pay him more attention and then get us to go at the same time.


00:34:54:23 - 00:35:03:18

Luna

That's so hot. Also, like, I know I'm sitting here like trying to imagine it, it seems like it would require an incredible amount of skill. You're moving in so many places.


00:35:03:20 - 00:35:12:02

Casey

Yeah, it's it's a little bit of like it doesn't happen every time. I'm on my knees straddling his body, he's laying on his side and I'm on my knees.


00:35:12:02 - 00:35:18:11

Luna

Okay. So you have a little more control, but that's still a lot of movement. It's a lot of coordination.


00:35:18:13 - 00:35:28:11

Casey

Yeah. And I have a lot of fun with that. But and like I said, I'm still hoping for the day when I can. We can get a prostate orgasm out of him just from me doing them real good.


00:35:28:13 - 00:35:41:03

Luna

I'm sure that it's possible. I've been reading about this. I too am learning about it. I feel like eventually it's a matter of time to create the right emotional space, and the physical relaxation will come. That's what I hear.


00:35:41:05 - 00:35:56:16

Casey

That's I think that's what has to happen. I think there are some pieces in our life that need to calm down and stop causing external stress. Yeah. And then once those have moved out of the way, I think we'll have an easier time to. Yeah. Like, because, you know, like I said, his his brakes are on more than mine.


00:35:56:18 - 00:36:03:21

Casey

Yeah. And I think we'll get there. I'm hopeful and more than willing to keep trying, you know. Totally. No problem.


00:36:03:22 - 00:36:18:09

Luna

I was going to say even if you don't get there. But the practice is pretty good. Oh, well, yeah. Nina Hartley says that it's just a matter of teaching penis owners to remove ejaculation from orgasm. And then there can be multiple.


00:36:18:12 - 00:36:19:09

Casey

Decouple them.


00:36:19:09 - 00:36:20:03

Luna

Decouple them?


00:36:20:03 - 00:36:24:18

Casey

Yeah, I haven't done it yet, but I hope I can. That sounds exciting.


00:36:24:20 - 00:36:38:22

Luna

I also have a it's one of my bucket list goals to give a penis partner a prostate like prostate only or orgasm. But I've talked to people who have, and I've talked to many people who have given them to themselves on the end of dildos, in bathtubs, too.


00:36:39:00 - 00:37:00:13

Casey

I've definitely explored trying to do that for myself. I haven't gotten there. Yeah, I'm not sure if you interviewed anybody who has been trying this, but there comes a point where you, like, are contracting your pelvic floor moderately. Right. You're so you're trying to fatigue your pelvic floor muscles, and it kind of makes them all quiver. And then when your pelvic floor is all quivering, your prostate gets on a stimulation.


00:37:00:15 - 00:37:20:16

Casey

And so that triggers almost your whole lower body is all wiggly. And it's crazy to articulate what that feels like, but it's really an involuntary like the trembling. And then at some point these trembles progressed into like a full body prostate orgasm. But I have not managed to get over that hurdle yet.


00:37:20:18 - 00:37:39:22

Luna

That is so cool. Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess this is gives me plenty of new ideas. Fun fact I've been too tired to like, really come when I got Covid again, even though I'm not. I'm not as like I'm really energetic in my brain when I have to remind my body that it's not up to speed. I have not yet given myself like only an ask as I'm like a oh, I get close.


00:37:39:22 - 00:37:55:23

Luna

But then I mean, it's still a clearer like orgasms and women still hitting just the other part of the clitoris, but it's still fun to like. Try a new angle and see if I could do it without, you know, with all of these other things. And I usually do just let myself when I get so, so, so close and I'll let myself have expert tabulation.


00:37:55:23 - 00:38:06:06

Luna

But that's another thing on my goal. But I won't try it until I'm healthy. It can probably make it so even just like trying to touch myself with hands, it's been hard.


00:38:06:07 - 00:38:10:12

Casey

Yeah, it's like all your sensations. Just wacky. Nothing feels normal.


00:38:10:14 - 00:38:26:21

Luna

It's a little bit dulled. And mostly it's just tired. Like it's just fatigue. It's more fatigue than anything. And then when I'm, like, touching myself and then coughing, it's like, well, this isn't even fun. So I really am just using the time to catch up on old podcast stuff and hopefully organizing the new website. I've made some headway.


00:38:26:21 - 00:38:30:14

Luna

So okay. Are there any other sexy thoughts you wanted to tell me?


00:38:30:16 - 00:38:39:17

Casey

I don't have anything on the top of my mind. I have about ten minutes. If you have any more topics to inquire about or things to noodle on.


00:38:39:19 - 00:39:01:15

Luna

Then well, so this is not your job. It's also not my job. But if today, in the next ten minutes you and I were tasked with like a sweet, practical, tangible offering for men, penis owners in this country of America in particular. What? What should we do? How should we tackle this problem? I think we should approach. What do you think needs exploring?


00:39:01:15 - 00:39:03:07

Luna

Not that we've to solve it right now, but you.


00:39:03:07 - 00:39:05:22

Casey

Mean the problem of toxic masculinity?


00:39:06:02 - 00:39:30:00

Luna

Toxic masculinity? And I think my noodle is there's got to be a way to, like, really let men know everywhere that not only is it okay for them to feel their feelings, but actually when they share their feelings with me, we have better sex, I get adored, it's less rapey because if I can feel the desire that comes you, if I can feel the feeling of appreciation and adoration that comes with the desire, that's good.


00:39:30:00 - 00:39:42:20

Luna

But if I get desire without feeling, that's rapey. And so that's what I've been thinking a lot about lately. What I would love to hear, even just like the conversations that are happening in your head around it, since you have such a different and important experience.


00:39:42:22 - 00:40:15:05

Casey

I'm going to use the word men not to be exclusive, but just because I'm easier to talk about. I think we as a society, globally and especially in America, have come to put a lot of pressure on men to be a certain image. And that pressure makes feelings unsafe, and nobody can feel their feelings when they're threatened. Nobody can experience their emotions or share their emotions or really experience another person's emotions and empathize when they're under threat.


00:40:15:07 - 00:40:55:05

Casey

And I think what we have to do is make feelings safe for men, and not just in a therapist's office. Like we need to make the experience and expression of feelings okay? Because the world is full of problems for women, but in general, being able to experience and express their emotions is not foremost among them. So I think we need to, you know, take a card from the way that women are permitted to be or sometimes even celebrate in being and give that same space for men to be able to feel safe, to feel what they feel and say what they feel.


00:40:55:06 - 00:41:22:12

Casey

And it comes along with, you know what? If we go backwards? Patriarchy, everything. Because the things that men are afraid to be, they're afraid to be, often because they're feminine. Yeah. On some level, we're, you know, attached to a subjugation of the feminine and that we have translated that onto men and said, well, don't be that because it's female or feminine or whatever.


00:41:22:14 - 00:41:45:23

Casey

So with you, both things like we have to celebrate femininity and all that it is, we have to break down the stereotypes about even what it is to be masculine or feminine. We have to allow men to be full spectrum people by showing them that being a woman is fine and embodying feminine characteristics is good, and that women are not less than.


00:41:45:23 - 00:41:52:18

Casey

And if we do all of those things together and also let people be gay or whatever sexuality they want to be.


00:41:53:00 - 00:41:57:13

Luna

Yeah, or straight and open to penises, like there's so many good permutations.


00:41:57:15 - 00:42:15:10

Casey

Then I think we'll start to see men drop some of the maladaptive, harmful defense mechanisms that run a lot of America's corporate world, political world, social climate, all that.


00:42:15:12 - 00:42:31:16

Luna

What do you think is the best, like tangible lately? Because like, is there a way, you know, if your wife, when you had been in that relationship was like, babe, just tell me all your feelings. It's was that accessible? Like, how do I like I'm sort of a sledgehammer. I'm sort of like, get them out. But like, I understand that's not.


00:42:31:18 - 00:42:49:23

Casey

The method in this case. I think I've always been okay in accessing, like being able to articulate some emotions. In the case of being in a relationship with her, it was dangerous to share my feelings because they would get like weaponized against me or become that's like a return threat because it was that was just the nature of that intimate relationship, right?


00:42:50:00 - 00:42:55:04

Casey

It wasn't safe. But on a larger scale, the question is, how do we make men feel safe?


00:42:55:05 - 00:43:13:11

Luna

I mean, I, I don't know that there's a good answer. I would also be curious to hear about your experiences with other men, because you are a human being who seems to have a great facility, putting his internal thoughts and experiences and feelings into words, which I've learned is a special skill. Because now I go on dates and I'm like, what do you think about this?


00:43:13:11 - 00:43:32:03

Luna

What do you feel about that? And I realized that now talking deeply with people has ruined my like, dating small talk. Like, I don't know how to do it. I'm really curious what your interactions with of dudes, especially in moments, in non-romantic moments, you know, perhaps outside of your partnership that does invite deep sharing.


00:43:32:05 - 00:44:01:04

Casey

It is hard with men because they feel so much, whether perceived or actual, internal or external threat target when they consider sharing feelings. So it has to feel like a really safe space for a guy to share their feelings. And I've been that person to various men. But you know, that doesn't change the overarching problem, I think. Yeah, I wish I had an easy answer.


00:44:01:04 - 00:44:38:17

Casey

I'm no expert, honestly. One of the solutions I'm learning with my own kids is that it's in the way we raise boys, too, because we prioritize a whole lot of things in American, like the academic education. But I can tell you it was social and emotional learning that I have come to prioritize for my kids. And when I've realized that all kids need is so much more important, like, you can learn your math in third grade, but if you get to first without any ability to like, relate or empathize, or for getting or do any of those regular social things, everything.


00:44:38:19 - 00:45:01:01

Casey

Everything's hard core life is hard. No matter how much algebra you can do and how many people, especially penis owners, have we met who might be top achievers in whatever thing but have the social capabilities of a turnip? Okay, so and it's not their fault right. I don't think we need to hate on that guy. No.


00:45:01:04 - 00:45:15:05

Luna

And I'm one of them too, just to be really clear. Like I had to work like really hard to do social things. Like I get it, I was a smart person and I didn't have social skills, but I had some. But like, you know, move on that spectrum for a while.


00:45:15:10 - 00:45:24:18

Casey

There are other parts of the world where they have learned that and prioritize that kind of learning more highly than we do in America.


00:45:24:18 - 00:45:46:15

Luna

I can not stop thinking about the getaway kid at age 50. Was that Joe's your figure. I can't remember, but, going away to to a study abroad year when we're 15 to 17. Seems like it could be a great, great thing. Like if that was just available broadly in our education system, I can imagine a totally different country.


00:45:46:17 - 00:45:51:11

Casey

Wow. Yeah, I think it could be for sure. Just the perspective that you gain just.


00:45:51:12 - 00:45:52:04

Luna

From being on your own.


00:45:52:09 - 00:46:36:00

Casey

There's also this sort of swing to pathologize people who have a hard time with their feelings, and it also turns into another form of shame where it's like, oh, you're just emotionally unavailable and narcissistic and like, you, okay, narcissists don't choose to be narcissists, right? Like, my people are a product of their upbringing for the most part. And while I'm not talking about true like sociopaths or psychopaths, I'm talking about just people who have different levels of emotional intelligence and emotional education that we also can't swing at the other way and start demonizing or shaming people because they don't have the tools, because that doesn't fix the problem.


00:46:36:02 - 00:46:40:15

Casey

It just makes it even more unsafe to now make a fool of myself. When I try to feel.


00:46:40:17 - 00:46:42:03

Luna

Like no exact, I'm.


00:46:42:03 - 00:46:42:17

Casey

Not going to do that.


00:46:42:21 - 00:47:04:18

Luna

That's it. It's just a pile of backlash in an environment where people are like watching the whole time and then commenting in a shame, blame binary judgment sort of way, because that's how the news has taught us to react to everything. And so I'm really, really hoping for a different way. I really just want to create my little oasis and invite people to come practice feelings and do all that stuff.


00:47:04:20 - 00:47:06:16

Casey

So I'm excited to see you make it.


00:47:06:22 - 00:47:17:21

Luna

It's happening slowly but surely. Creation Place is getting built and then that is the flagship to getting all the 3D stuff, so I'm going to be working on that more. Casey, thank you so much for this update.


00:47:17:23 - 00:47:19:17

Casey

You're welcome. Thanks for having me I loved it.

Comments


bottom of page