listen now // watch on youtube

Hosts of Front Porch Swingers, a podcast that started as a blog and has evolved into a hub for conversations around ethical non-monogamy and details of their own hot sex stories.

🔗 BRENNA & BRIAN LINKS |  frontporchswingers.com / instagram / twitter

share your thoughts / share a story

apply to be a guest

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:06:04

Luna

Today our guests are Brian and Brenna from Front Porch Swingers. Welcome you two.

00:00:06:05 - 00:00:07:23

Brenna

Thank you for having us.

00:00:08:00 - 00:00:17:18

Luna

Can you start off by telling us what is the sexy work you do in the world? How are you making the world a sexier place? And what is your sex at work origin story?

00:00:17:20 - 00:00:19:21

Brenna

So kind of everything started as a.

00:00:19:21 - 00:00:21:10

Luna

Blog.

00:00:21:12 - 00:00:29:06

Brenna

And it was fun. I love writing, so that was kind of the start of it when we started in the lifestyle. We were in rural Montana.

00:00:29:08 - 00:00:30:02

Luna

Oh wow.

00:00:30:02 - 00:00:48:22

Brenna

And I didn't really have an outlet. I felt like I didn't have people to connect with and talk to. I felt like we were having all of these fun, sexy experiences, but being able to share them with other people and just express myself, that was missing. So I started a blog, and then Brian was like, well, the blog is great, but a podcast would be so much better.

00:00:49:02 - 00:01:16:22

Brenna

And I thought he was completely insane because I had knew nothing about podcasting. I never even had one of these in front of my face before. Microphone. So yeah, I was like, I don't know why we would do that. But Brian talked me into it and we started the podcast, and really it started off as me just being able to express myself and us being able to have conversations about non-monogamy, because again, in Montana, you're limited in terms of kind of those connections that you can have with people.

00:01:16:22 - 00:01:41:23

Brenna

And so I just wanted something to like pump my sexy energy into. And I thought that's all it was going to be. And it exploded. So yeah, that turned into the podcast, kind of spun into a lot of different things. We've done everything from, you know, educational seminars to event hosting to just, you know, creating like networks of sexy people all across the country, in the world.

00:01:42:05 - 00:01:45:14

Brenna

So, yeah, it's kind of gone. It's taken on a life of its own, if you will.

00:01:45:16 - 00:01:49:09

Luna

Okay. And Brian, how was that for you as that was evolving?

00:01:49:11 - 00:02:06:22

Brian

So I come from a world of adult entertainment, from sexuality world. For almost 30 years, I was an executive at a high level for the largest adult entertainment company in the southwest portion. And I say it's a matter of fact, they just sold publicly this week for $66.5 million. Wow. Prior to that, the company I worked for sold for $220 million publicly.

00:02:07:00 - 00:02:34:21

Brian

So I did it at a high level. So sexuality was never out of my wheelhouse. And I grew up in a very progressive household. My father operated and owned gentlemen's clubs when I was a young boy. Yeah, so this was not new to me. And so when Brenna and I started dating, we were three months into our relationship when we decided we need to open this up, like, literally combined in one night in bed, we came up with this idea, and from that point on, ten days later, we were we were literally ten days was the first experience.

00:02:34:23 - 00:02:53:07

Brian

And we have not stopped since. And when my bright idea to have this put this podcast together, I didn't know what the hell a podcast. I mean, I knew what they were. I didn't want to do it. I'd listen to them. I had no idea how. We just did it. When we started out on our cell phone with, you know, mics clipped to our lapels, and then we moved to like a little one microphone that we were using.

00:02:53:07 - 00:03:02:18

Brian

And then finally, you know, we got to the point now where we have our own studio and where, you know, it's like a real thing now it's actually a job. So we had no idea we were working corporate jobs before we did this professionally.

00:03:02:18 - 00:03:12:16

Luna

So it was about corporate jobs. Yeah. Were you worried at all about, like, sharing your personal details or kind of what was was that a choice for you? Was it difficult where you're just like, let's do it?

00:03:12:18 - 00:03:31:01

Brenna

Well, what was interesting when we first started the podcast is I didn't want to use our real names or show our faces because I had a family of not not children, but I have a family in Montana, and we had, like you said, professional jobs. And so I'm like, there's just so much stigma attached to this type of thing that I don't feel comfortable doing that.

00:03:31:07 - 00:03:46:11

Brenna

And Brian made the really good point that, you know, all that we talked about was how much we didn't want to have to be in hiding, how we were really proud of what we were building together. And he's like, well, it's counterintuitive to say that and then hide our faces and use fake names. So he kind of talked me into it.

00:03:46:11 - 00:03:56:22

Brenna

It took a little bit of time. I'm very, very glad that we did in hindsight. But yeah, to answer your question, there's a lot of fear attached to that. I mean, I had a very high powered career before this, and I was afraid it was all going to go away.

00:03:56:23 - 00:04:13:22

Brian

Yeah. Me too. I worked for I mean, I can't even tell you I worked for it when we were in Montana because everyone knows who the person is. And so I hired a First Amendment attorney locally in Montana in the event that something came up, because neither of us had actually signed any kind of morality clause, and I was just concerned.

00:04:13:22 - 00:04:31:15

Brian

I wasn't even concerned for myself. I was a subcontractor, independent contractor. I was a third party. Got it. I wasn't worried for me. I was worried for Brenna because the company she worked for is like one of the largest in the world. Yeah. And I thought, wow, this is going to be a problem potentially. So I hired a guy who specializes in workplace law and was a First Amendment guy, and fortunately, we never had to use him.

00:04:31:15 - 00:04:35:06

Brian

So we still have him on retainer. Really, just in case.

00:04:35:11 - 00:04:44:18

Luna

Okay, so what about the part of your origin story that is your personal relationship? Like how was it? What was the choice like to be like, let's do some of this for.

00:04:44:23 - 00:04:47:02

Brian

Me, man. We fought it. We fought it hard.

00:04:47:03 - 00:05:04:09

Brenna

Our relationship. Yeah. Well, yeah. So our relationship was supposed to be a Dom sub dynamic. That was the whole point of it. It was not meant to be anything more serious than kind of exploring kink together. That's how we started out. And both of us were like, we don't want to be in an exclusive relationship. We don't want this to be anything serious.

00:05:04:14 - 00:05:10:10

Brenna

And then all of a sudden, I woke up one day and I was like, I've been sitting at your house for like ten days straight. Well.

00:05:10:12 - 00:05:32:11

Brian

To be fair, let's back up. We met on Craigslist, first of all. Okay. I was in the state of Montana permanently for like five days when I found her ad on Craigslist. I come from a Bdsm background. So does Brenna. And I had left the state of Texas after living there for 30 years and went from Houston to Montana, literally with a small stop in between, in Denver.

00:05:32:13 - 00:05:50:22

Brian

And so when I got to Montana, I was like, you know what? All my histories, history. I don't know anybody here. My life is completely new, and so no one has any idea who I am. I don't have to pretend. I don't have to be anything I don't want to be. So when we met under the guise of a Bdsm sub dom relationship, we were just word vomiting to each other.

00:05:50:22 - 00:05:52:09

Brian

We were just telling each other everything.

00:05:52:14 - 00:05:56:06

Brenna

So it was almost like you didn't have anything to lose. Like, this isn't a relationship.

00:05:56:11 - 00:05:58:12

Luna

Let's be honest with each other. I don't give a.

00:05:58:14 - 00:06:13:09

Brian

Who cares, right? So I remember distinctly we were we literally were fighting it. And the finally we went had dinner. We had, drinks at one of our favorite places downtown. So we made a spectacle and we were sitting at the bar and we're like, look, either this is going to happen or it's not, but this is stupid.

00:06:13:09 - 00:06:18:10

Brian

Like, what are we doing here? And then that was it. We had never been apart unless we travel for work independently.

00:06:18:10 - 00:06:33:09

Brenna

But I think that origin was what led to us being non-monogamous and being so free. And all of this because when you are so completely transparent with your partner about the things that you want, it's so freeing. I had never had that before. So I was like, oh my God, this is a completely different dynamic for me.

00:06:33:10 - 00:06:40:00

Brian

Well, also between us we have five failed marriages. I was married and divorced four times. I'm no fucking good at it. Well, I'm not.

00:06:40:05 - 00:06:41:07

Luna

Different kind of success.

00:06:41:07 - 00:06:55:11

Brian

I'm not a quitter. No good. Ever. So I finally was like, look, I've done this wrong so many years, I can't continue to do the same thing, right? So I've got to change something. So my whole idea was I'm just going to be myself, and that's just going to be the way it is and we'll see what happens.

00:06:55:11 - 00:06:56:16

Brian

And fortunately it worked out.

00:06:56:18 - 00:07:01:19

Luna

Yeah. Okay. And what was your experience prior to Brian like.

00:07:01:21 - 00:07:19:21

Brenna

So I got married when I was 21 years old. I was divorced four years after that. And as soon as I was out of that marriage, it was on. I was exploring everything, kink and, you know, my bisexual side, my pansexual side, just like, you know, laying it all out on the table. And again, that's why it was so weird.

00:07:19:21 - 00:07:37:18

Brenna

But we got into a dynamic together because I wasn't looking for that. I wanted to just continue that free exploration. And in my mind, it was like, those two things can't coexist. You can't be, you know, in a healthy, amazing relationship and also explore because I'd never experienced that or been exposed to it before this relationship.

00:07:37:19 - 00:07:39:18

Brian

Like, you can't be committed and slutty like.

00:07:39:18 - 00:07:41:23

Luna

So I just came along.

00:07:42:01 - 00:07:51:21

Brian

Yeah, well, in my house where I grew up, it was never like that. My father and my mother were very progressive, but now my mother is like our biggest cheerleader. She's 84, you know, and she's like.

00:07:51:23 - 00:07:53:00

Brenna

Where are you going now?

00:07:53:01 - 00:07:53:10

Luna

You know?

00:07:53:16 - 00:08:08:21

Brian

So yeah. So it was never an issue having a conversation about sex or relationships or any of that stuff. But it's still like in the back of your mind, you know, like, is this right? Am I supposed to be doing this? Should I be having this relationship and feeling like this? And then to find a partner when you can actually express that?

00:08:08:21 - 00:08:17:02

Brian

Because I'd never done it before. I completely subverted it and it was great. But I figured, you know, this is brand new. I'm just going to throw it all out there. And like I said, it worked.

00:08:17:02 - 00:08:31:02

Luna

So wow, how can you give us kind of an overview? I don't know what makes the most sense for your work, but like a day in the life, a week in the life, a month in the life of like the main things you do in your sexy related work. Just for listeners who maybe haven't dived into your goodness yet.

00:08:31:04 - 00:08:49:18

Brenna

We do a lot. So obviously we have the podcast. It comes out every single week. That's kind of my baby. I love that, I love the creative process of it. I love the editing, I love the marketing of it. And then in addition to that, we host lifestyle events. We host one every single month in Las Vegas, and then typically at least one more in another city.

00:08:49:19 - 00:09:09:05

Brenna

They're very unique events. We host mostly what are considered hot wife events, which are a little bit different than your normal like sex party or lifestyle party. So, you know, a lot of our work is around marketing for those and vetting people. We don't just let people in off the streets for our events. We care very, very deeply about the safety and security of the people that are coming to our event.

00:09:09:05 - 00:09:29:00

Brenna

So we do interviewing processes and vetting and applications. That's a big chunk of our time. And then in addition to that, we both have an OnlyFans. I'm definitely more involved in it than Brian is. So, you know, that's been really fun for me too. I didn't know that I had this kind of exhibitionist side of me, and I should have because we literally talk about our sex life on our podcast for a living.

00:09:29:06 - 00:09:31:11

Brenna

But to be able to feel like I'm pulling.

00:09:31:15 - 00:09:32:07

Luna

In a.

00:09:32:07 - 00:09:45:09

Brenna

Real life show for people, oh, it's so exhilarating. So I do a lot of that too. And obviously it's a lot more work than just getting on camera and having sex. But that's been kind of a new outlet for me in the last few months just to be able to, because it used to just be like my new job.

00:09:45:09 - 00:09:48:09

Brenna

Now I'm doing actually, you know, full fledged sexy.

00:09:48:13 - 00:10:04:21

Brian

Collaborative stuff for me. You know, I'm the event guy. So I come from the hospitality world, obviously. So I deal with all the logistics for all of the events, whether it's, you know, Denver or the hotel takeover or whatever it is. So it's constant and of course, keeping up with the marketing, the social media aspect and really interacting with people.

00:10:04:21 - 00:10:22:23

Brian

Starting at like 8:00 this morning, I was returning emails from people reaching out, asking questions about events. And and then there's just people asking questions about their own personal stuff, like to get like communicated with today. You know, what it's like. You have a show, people resonate with you. They see you. They're part of the community that we have created, an amazing community of friends and people.

00:10:23:00 - 00:10:29:18

Brian

And so they reach out and they ask questions like, oh, you know, this happened last night. Did I make the wrong decision? And, you know, you just try to talk them through it kind of thing.

00:10:29:21 - 00:10:46:12

Brenna

Well, I was going to say that we really do try to like give back to the community too, because I feel like it's done so much for me personally and, you know, being able to just open up in my confidence soaring and all of these benefits that have come out of it that are non-sexual, that I feel like I need to pay it forward to other people.

00:10:46:12 - 00:10:58:16

Brenna

So a lot of our time is spent, like you said, answering questions. You know, even just on Reddit, I mean, all of these different platforms, just communicating with people and showing them that there's a safe and healthy and awesome way to be namin organizers.

00:10:58:18 - 00:10:59:00

Luna

Yeah.

00:10:59:00 - 00:11:06:15

Brian

So 2023 for us as it pertains to our events is basically full. So now we're prepping for 2024. Wow.

00:11:06:19 - 00:11:07:23

Luna

Congratulations.

00:11:07:23 - 00:11:11:07

Brian

You've already got two takeovers planned for 24 and 25.

00:11:11:07 - 00:11:11:18

Luna

Okay.

00:11:11:18 - 00:11:22:05

Brian

So now it's just kind of layering in the additional monthly stuff. As I mentioned to you, we've got a meeting after we're done interviewing with you to talk to somebody about a club here locally again. So it's constant. It's just constant.

00:11:22:07 - 00:11:27:21

Luna

What was your education process around non-monogamy like like where did your learnings come from?

00:11:27:23 - 00:11:32:01

Brenna

So I mean, I didn't even know non-monogamy was a thing until I listen to a podcast.

00:11:32:02 - 00:11:33:02

Luna

Okay.

00:11:33:04 - 00:11:50:02

Brenna

So I was like, wow, this is a thing. Okay, cool. So I think that was kind of my first exposure to it. And then obviously getting into the kink world, you see there is some crossover between those two lifestyle, if you will. So that was my first kind of entry into it. And I'm a very analytical person. I want to know everything about everything.

00:11:50:02 - 00:12:08:03

Brenna

So I'm somebody that's I'm going to dive into every book, every blog, every podcast. I just want to be immersed in information. So it's really interesting to when you first get into this space, how you can have all of the information at your disposal and all of these resources, but you also have to couple that with real life experiences.

00:12:08:03 - 00:12:24:17

Brenna

And I was not fully prepared for that because in my mind, I'm so I'm a planner. I want to know exactly what's going to happen. I want to be able to know, you know, here's plan A, B, C, and D, and then you realize that all goes out the window when you're actually participating in it. So, I mean, I think for us it was combining the two, or at least for me personally.

00:12:24:17 - 00:12:46:07

Brian

Yeah, we have a really unique dynamic where we both will analyze something to death, literally. Brant is definitely more like like she'll fact check me. In case you didn't notice, we have 20 years between us, so I'll give you a hint as to who the older one is. So I have way more of the life experience, but I'll say something to her like pop culture and feel instantly like I don't believe that and instantly fact check me.

00:12:46:11 - 00:12:48:00

Brian

So I'm more like.

00:12:48:02 - 00:12:49:01

Brenna

Ashley, right? Just saying.

00:12:49:01 - 00:13:00:10

Brian

Whatever. Normally it normally not the case. However, I'm more like, well let's just throw it against the wall, see what's next. Let's find out. You know I'm that guy. So we have a really nice balance when it comes to that. I think you.

00:13:00:10 - 00:13:03:10

Brenna

Also had exposure to nominate me prior to me though.

00:13:03:10 - 00:13:24:21

Brian

Yeah, I was very much a ball for in the space for a long time, but also because of my profession. In Dallas, Texas, for example, my former company owned a piece of property that the most prolific lifestyle club in Texas at the time existed in. So we were basically their landlord, and I was thrust into it because for a professional reason, I had to take it over.

00:13:24:21 - 00:13:40:09

Brian

Okay. And so I was given an intimate look inside of what that really looks like from a professional perspective. And I got to know a lot of these people, and of course, people from the outside, they don't understand the types of folks that are ethically non-monogamous. They're your neighbors. They're literally the people that you go to teach.

00:13:40:14 - 00:13:41:22

Brenna

Your kids, teachers.

00:13:41:22 - 00:13:42:03

Luna

Or.

00:13:42:04 - 00:13:59:17

Brian

Doctors. Your dentist, like people don't understand that. And so I'm immersed in this, and I'm talking to these people who are very affluent and really friendly and super nice. And it's an engineer and a lawyer and a doctor and all these, you know, high powered city officials and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, well, this this is just normal then.

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:09:06

Brian

So I'm not, you know, clearly I'm not crazy. This is a thing. And it really did open my eyes to it. So more I got comfortable with it, the more interested I became in it. So I really did immerse myself in it.

00:14:09:10 - 00:14:14:05

Luna

Amazing. When you are doing a takeover, is it called a takeover because you're taking over a venue?

00:14:14:14 - 00:14:16:02

Brian

If you do a hotel takeover.

00:14:16:04 - 00:14:17:03

Luna

You're basically taking over.

00:14:17:06 - 00:14:20:14

Brian

You've rented out the entire hotel and you're taking over the property.

00:14:20:14 - 00:14:27:18

Luna

Okay. So when you do those things, are you also playing? Is that part of it for you or you mostly in like managerial role? Okay.

00:14:27:20 - 00:14:42:12

Brenna

It really depends on the event. There are some events that are very taxing in terms of the energy that's required. And, you know, making sure that the safety protocols are in place and making sure, you know, the security guards we have in place know what they're supposed to be doing. And there's a lot of moving parts and pieces.

00:14:42:12 - 00:14:52:15

Brenna

The bigger an event is, our events here are a little bit different because it's in a venue that's very controlled. It's a much smaller crowd. It's, you know, 70 people versus 400.

00:14:52:16 - 00:14:56:13

Brian

70 to 125 versus 200 to 400. It's a great.

00:14:56:15 - 00:15:04:05

Brenna

Wow. So it just depends. I mean, I think for me, I tend to network a lot more than Brian does at these events is pretty rare for either of us to actually play at that.

00:15:04:06 - 00:15:04:22

Luna

It's very rare.

00:15:04:22 - 00:15:10:13

Brenna

But I use it as almost like a speed dating opportunity. Like I'll get to know a bunch of people and then make connections for later.

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:10:15

Luna

Yeah.

00:15:10:16 - 00:15:25:19

Brian

No, no. I have engaged at a couple of our events, but that's because the friends that we have created and the regular play partners that we have created, for me, it lends itself to a much more comfortable situation as opposed to like just a random, one off, stranger kind of thing that I'm not good at anyway. I don't do that.

00:15:25:19 - 00:15:35:06

Brian

So at our events, especially the bigger ones, there's so much going on. There's so many pieces and moving parts, I find it difficult to concentrate on that. So I'm really just kind of focused on it.

00:15:35:08 - 00:15:39:16

Luna

Amazing. So do you identify as sex workers?

00:15:39:18 - 00:15:40:10

Brian

Oh yeah.

00:15:40:12 - 00:15:41:12

Luna

Absolutely. Yeah.

00:15:41:12 - 00:15:53:13

Brenna

But even before doing OnlyFans, I felt like we were sex workers because our podcast is not super informational. It really is us dissecting our non-monogamous adventures. So I mean, that sex work.

00:15:53:15 - 00:15:54:08

Luna

I love it if.

00:15:54:08 - 00:16:15:00

Brian

You're trying to figure out, like, the five things to bring to your next hotel takeover, you don't want to listen to our fucking show because you're not going to find that that's not that's not what we do. You can Google that shit. What you're going to hear is exactly what we deal with on a daily, weekly basis. I mean, I have two regular full time play partners in town, plus my primary partner, Brant, is very active.

00:16:15:00 - 00:16:23:08

Brian

So, you know, we have a lot going on. You know, so our experience is we share all of that with consent of course, on the show. And it's it's real, real time.

00:16:23:13 - 00:16:33:11

Luna

Amazing. Oh my gosh. So ultimately where would you like to see your work lead. Like what are you looking forward to creating just going forward?

00:16:33:13 - 00:16:50:08

Brenna

I mean, I would like to see our events continue to take off, mostly because we do our events very differently. And I would say the average people out there that are hosting events, in fact, the reason we got into event hosting to begin with is because we were going to events over and over again, whether it was in Montana or in other states.

00:16:50:10 - 00:17:15:07

Brenna

And we were very kind of disenfranchized with that. Yeah, yeah. And everyone has their thing. So I'm not speaking badly about other event hosts out there, but for us, it was like, we want to see inclusivity. Neither of us are straight. We want to see consent discussions. We want to see safety protocols. We want to see actual discussions about you know, proper etiquette in these environments and how to make sure that everyone can feel comfortable in them.

00:17:15:11 - 00:17:30:18

Brenna

And we weren't seeing that. So that's really why we started to do what we do, what we do now. And I think I would like to continue to see that take off, but also kind of shift it more into an educational perspective. Brian actually has been kind of heading up a project we have coming up called the ENM summit.

00:17:30:18 - 00:17:47:18

Brenna

The ethically non-monogamy summit, and the entire focus of that is getting leaders in this space where people that are prolific in this space together to have these difficult conversations, how can we make sure people are having a ton of sexy fun? Yeah, but also making sure that it's safe and inclusive and comfortable.

00:17:47:20 - 00:18:08:00

Brian

Yeah. And along with that, the biggest portion of that for me is, you know, as Brenna said, we went to a lot of events. Now, a lot of these were in Montana and they were horrendous, okay. They were just horrendous. And now, of course, that we've been traveling the country for the last two years or more. We've gone to a lot more events and we've seen a lot more impressive events.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:34:23

Brian

But then of course, there's always something missing or something we I could do this a little bit better and, you know, that kind of thing. So with the end of summit, what I'd like to see that become is so we're working with the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom and with open, the organization for Polyamory and Ethical Non-monogamy. We would like to see, for lack of a better term, the NRCs ordain a set of rules and guidelines and policies and procedures that resorts, clubs, promoters, event hosts would follow.

00:18:35:00 - 00:18:51:05

Brian

And if you're not stamped by the CSF in this group, then you know we want to have a conversation with you about why you aren't following those rules, and some people aren't going to do it, and that's just fine. There's no cost involved. We just want to educate people. And if you're not willing to do that, then we're not going to promote you.

00:18:51:05 - 00:19:09:17

Brian

Yeah. You know, this group is not going to promote you. And that's really what we're looking forward to. So we do have the most prolific the largest operators in the space for the last three decades, for sure. Coming to this event. There's about 16 groups involved in this. So it really should be a launching pad. And that's that's my hope for this year.

00:19:09:22 - 00:19:21:21

Luna

Awesome. So give us a little overview now of like, what do you think are the sexiest parts of your work? And then what are the parts that are the least sexy for you? The turn ons and turn off.

00:19:21:23 - 00:19:47:03

Brenna

I love telling the stories on our podcast. Obviously, the second half of every one of our podcast is one of us, or both of us, typically one of us recounting an experience. And I love that for many reasons. One, because it allows me to kind of sit with all of that information and think through it and learn things, and I will have these moments while we're having these storytelling sessions that I feel like make me a better non-monogamous person.

00:19:47:03 - 00:20:04:04

Brenna

But also I love the look on brands face. I'm doing it. It turns me on. It's freaking fun. So I think that's my favorite part. I would say the least favorite part of all of it is people don't understand how much goes into all of this. There is so much administrative work. There are so many bookkeeping elements there.

00:20:04:04 - 00:20:18:21

Brenna

You know, for events we have things like insurance and we have to hire people. We have to vet the people we're hiring, not disclosure agreements. There's all of these elements, especially that go into sexually oriented events that I don't think the average person would ever even consider.

00:20:18:22 - 00:20:43:17

Brian

Know for sure. So yeah, much to Brenda's point. So we have our personal life, obviously, and professional has evolved. We started out very differently from where we are right now. And when it comes to our engagement with other people, where originally I would either be in a doorway adjacent and listening or watching or maybe down the hall. And then we moved into a situation where Brenna would play in another state or another town, or, you know, that kind of thing.

00:20:43:19 - 00:21:04:17

Brian

We play completely separately. Now we are 100%. We don't play together, we don't play with couples. We're completely separate. So a lot of times we won't even tell each other about our experience and we'll find out on the show. And then the reconnection. While it's always intense, it gets that much more intense because I may have waited five days to hear what's happened, right?

00:21:04:22 - 00:21:14:03

Brian

Because all I'll know is that something happened. I don't maybe won't even know who. And that's it. And vice versa. Unless, of course, I'm playing with one of my regular play partners who happen to be her friends. So.

00:21:14:03 - 00:21:14:21

Brenna

And then I hear about it.

00:21:14:21 - 00:21:16:01

Luna

Yeah.

00:21:16:03 - 00:21:38:20

Brian

So. Yeah. So that's my favorite part of it is being able to after being together almost six years, five plus years, you know, doing this professionally or at least doing the podcast and still having that surprise and that excitement about it. That's the best part for me. The worst part is that administrative bullshit, right? All the stuff that has to go into it, it is not easy to do these things.

00:21:38:20 - 00:21:45:23

Brian

It is an absolute nightmare. It's very time consuming. It's stressful. Your anxiety ridden, you know.

00:21:46:07 - 00:21:48:07

Brenna

Some weeks we work 70 hours a week.

00:21:48:07 - 00:22:05:08

Brian

It's. Yeah, some and some weeks it's I'm out of town, you know, one of us, one of us has to travel. One of us has to be home most of the time because there's so much to catch up on. So you expend a lot of energy chasing all this little stuff to create all these events, you know? And then, of course, it's the legal crap.

00:22:05:08 - 00:22:15:01

Brian

You know, the we've got multiple LLCs. We have cease and desist out there. We just applied for service marks and trademarks and to protect our stuff because people are stealing it and trying to use it.

00:22:15:01 - 00:22:17:01

Brenna

The censorship issues, that's another thing.

00:22:17:06 - 00:22:17:21

Brian

Oh, it's so.

00:22:17:23 - 00:22:20:12

Brenna

We've lost so many Instagram accounts and Tick Tock.

00:22:20:12 - 00:22:24:12

Brian

Which is the bane of my existence, that shit. It really is the worst part for me.

00:22:24:15 - 00:22:30:13

Brenna

Yeah. It's like there's an attack on us just for being sexual people. That's ridiculous. Yeah, but it totally is.

00:22:30:15 - 00:22:45:11

Luna

On that note, kind of. I mean, it's the different what's the silliest or like, is there a funny stand out moment that had to do with someone else's shame that you've encountered in the course of your work? Because like so many people, it's so sensitive. Is there a moment that comes to mind?

00:22:45:13 - 00:23:09:18

Brian

Well, yeah. Well, kind of, for me, I don't know necessarily the chamber. I run into this a lot or I've run into it a number of times, not with my regular play partners, typically when I've met someone. And this is how it works for me. This isn't for everybody. Let's say for the sake of argument, a couple reaches out to me because I play as a single guy and typically with a couple, or the wife of that couple who are also a hot wife or stag and vixen couple I will encounter.

00:23:09:18 - 00:23:29:08

Brian

These folks will meet for the first time. All three of us, typically myself and the couple, and inevitably one out of maybe three of these women. Once we get to a point where we're maybe going to be intimate, there's always something. It's unique, right? I've been I am a super lucky guy, I really am. Clearly, I'm a lucky guy.

00:23:29:08 - 00:23:39:13

Brian

But what you don't see are the amazing women that I've had the opportunity to play with. Who for? I was the second person ever. They've slept with their entire lives.

00:23:39:14 - 00:23:41:02

Luna

A great honor. I've been that.

00:23:41:04 - 00:24:08:01

Brian

I've been that guy more than once. Cool. And it is. It don't freak you out sometimes. I knew ahead of time a couple of times, and other times I had no idea. But when you find until after. But when you know that that's the case, like in this particular case, and I'm thinking if this woman was so neurotic about everything about her physically, she was spectacular looking, but super nervous because no one else had ever seen her naked in the same room alone.

00:24:08:06 - 00:24:27:12

Brian

You know, it was just so internally worked up over it. It would take and it takes a little time to kind of break through that. And so it's not so much shame. It's really this lack of confidence. But now this woman has flourished, flourished because we say I communicate with everybody that I play with. We're all friends. She's like a different person, much like Brennan was when we first started.

00:24:27:14 - 00:24:45:18

Brian

She was demure and very submissive and wouldn't say two words at an event. Now she's the first one naked, having a party. You know, it's a whole this is a whole different person, not the same person five years ago. So watching that evolution is really unique. So I don't know necessarily that it's a shame thing and I guess it could be related to that.

00:24:45:18 - 00:24:48:23

Brian

But more than anything it's a confidence. It's, it's a, it's an empowerment thing.

00:24:49:01 - 00:24:51:17

Luna

Yeah. Maybe generations of societal shame too.

00:24:51:19 - 00:24:52:13

Brian

Oh for sure.

00:24:52:15 - 00:25:03:21

Luna

So on that note, I mean, this is you've touched on this a little bit already, but maybe we can hear some details of how your personal life and professional life have informed each other over the past few years.

00:25:03:23 - 00:25:06:05

Brenna

Oh man, there's so many ways that that's happened.

00:25:06:05 - 00:25:08:12

Brian

Yeah, that's a show in and of itself.

00:25:09:01 - 00:25:30:02

Brenna

So, I mean, I think the biggest one that comes to mind for me is obviously we are talking about the people that we're being intimate with on the show, and there's a lot of responsibility and that we've had to really find a balance between being honest with our listeners and being transparent, because that's incredibly important to us, but also honoring the relationships that we have with people gaining consent to talk about certain things.

00:25:30:07 - 00:25:49:08

Brenna

So that in itself has taught me so much about, you know, just relationships in general and your ability to communicate with people. I can't think of a time that we've really had someone say, don't talk about me on the show, but I can definitely think of times when people have mentioned certain elements of a play session and they say, I would prefer if you kept this off of the show.

00:25:49:12 - 00:25:59:15

Brenna

And for me, that's a realization of how important that was to them, and I learned so much more about them through that. So I think that's the biggest example that I can think of. Yeah.

00:25:59:15 - 00:26:21:04

Brian

And to Brenda's point, actually, one of my regular play partners at one point asked me not to say something about a particular scenario for a particular reason. And of course, we abide that. But we're always cautious because we never want to hurt anybody's feelings while we're 100% transparent. If there's something that we think is going to potentially hurt someone's feelings, we tell them ahead of time, look, we're not going to talk about this.

00:26:21:04 - 00:26:49:08

Brian

This isn't something we're going to discuss. Also, a lot of times what people don't realize is we don't talk about everything on the show. We save some stuff for ourselves and the people that we're with. So not everything is just put out there. Everything that's put out there is accurate, but it's not all put out there. So for me, the stuff that kind of transcends is when we've had an experience or I've had an experience, someone hears it on the show that that person hears it on the show, and then I will instantly get a text message.

00:26:49:08 - 00:26:59:15

Brian

I just talked about one of my regular play partners who I just saw last week. She listened to the show immediately, as soon as it was downloaded, and texted me right away with her critique.

00:26:59:17 - 00:27:02:03

Luna

Oh look, critique is she's amazing.

00:27:02:05 - 00:27:20:22

Brian

So. And really, what she did was she she sent me a reassurance text like, hey, this is 100% okay. You can absolutely talk about this. Do not feel bad about it. And so that's that kind of that's where it crosses over. Right? Because I've had this experience with this amazing person and now we're talking about it. 30,000 people are going to listen to her show basically.

00:27:21:04 - 00:27:25:08

Brian

And that's a big deal. You know. And then of course our friends will come to our events.

00:27:25:12 - 00:27:26:13

Brenna

I was just going to say the event's.

00:27:26:14 - 00:27:27:18

Luna

A different thing.

00:27:27:20 - 00:27:28:19

Brian

This is where it crosses.

00:27:28:19 - 00:27:29:19

Luna

Over because this is what I'm.

00:27:29:23 - 00:27:54:04

Brenna

Yeah, I mean, obviously we we host events for profit, but it's so much more than that because when you see our friends, specifically the people that have most of those, most of the people that come to our events are either listeners of our show or a lot of times they're friends. And so there's a lot of responsibility in that, because this isn't just pay us a ticket and come into this environment, it's we want to create a good experience for you.

00:27:54:04 - 00:28:09:18

Brenna

That means so much to us. And I take it really, really personally. And so I think we go into every event with that in the back of our minds, how are we going to make this a safe environment for our friends? Yeah. How are we going to make sure they have the absolute best night that they can possibly have?

00:28:09:20 - 00:28:18:10

Brenna

So there is there's a ton of crossover. Our work life and our personal life are not at all. There's nothing intertwined. It's not even funny.

00:28:18:10 - 00:28:23:09

Brian

Well, Brenna just went to the Golden Knights, controls a hockey game Sunday with both of my play partners.

00:28:23:11 - 00:28:23:20

Luna

Oh.

00:28:23:22 - 00:28:47:00

Brian

It's like I mean, it's like a big deal, right? I mean, that doesn't ever happen. That's rarely a thing. But beside that, the people, people coming to our events that don't know us, there may be listeners of the show and have never been the one thing they can absolutely resign themselves to. The fact of is that our events are curated with our friends in mind, because the last thing we want to do is embarrass ourselves, not provide a good experience for our friends.

00:28:47:00 - 00:28:59:23

Brian

So every time anybody comes to an event, we know instinctively we don't have events where our friends don't come, so we always want to take care of them. So it's a hospitable situation for everyone, mainly because we want our friends to have a good time. You know, that's the biggest thing.

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:17:06

Luna

I love that I also you preempted my work life, personal life. Question. That's great. But do you have any other thoughts to say around work life, personal life boundaries? Like if you've ever had to assert something in a work session, if it got too personal or vice versa, like for people trying to be too personal in a work situation, like does that come up for you?

00:29:17:08 - 00:29:34:00

Brenna

I mean, I think it happens more so in the OnlyFans realm, which is a whole different thing from everything else we do. Because for me, I do want to get to know the people that I'm playing with. I'm not the type that is and no judgment whatsoever, but I'm not the type that's just going to be someone to bang.

00:29:34:00 - 00:29:50:08

Brenna

That's it's not my thing. So that's very different in the OnlyFans rom, in the content creation realm. For the most part, it is this very transactional thing, and I've had to kind of resign myself to the fact that I'm going to have fewer opportunities in that world because I do want to be social, and I do.

00:29:50:08 - 00:29:51:08

Luna

Want to know the person.

00:29:51:08 - 00:30:07:17

Brenna

I want to know who you are. I want to know what makes you tick. And there are a lot of people that are just like, nope, we're going to have sex, and it's all about the money. And again, I respect that wholeheartedly. Get that bag. But it's just not who I am. So I think that's been kind of the biggest boundary for me is finding people that are like minded in that world.

00:30:07:18 - 00:30:11:14

Brenna

Not so much in any other realm of our professional lives that I can think of.

00:30:11:19 - 00:30:31:06

Brian

No, I much as Brenda mentioned. So I am a terrible creature of habit, first of all. And I also genuinely like to know the people that I'm engaging with, particularly regular partners. Right. My two play partners in May will be a year that I've met them both. So in my former life I gave zero fucks, did not care, did not matter.

00:30:31:06 - 00:30:53:06

Brian

I was a complete man whore. Just didn't make a difference. That's just who I was. I'm older that I've lived through that I have no interest in that anymore. I want genuine relationships with people. Where it gets weird is because people resonate with us. They hear us on the show. They listen every week, potentially for years, you know, 200 plus episodes and they think they know us.

00:30:53:08 - 00:31:14:16

Brian

They come and meet us at an event, maybe not even our event. And there's this very kind of familiar thing that they have. And we don't because we don't know them. And that's where it gets a little murky. We have had great experiences meeting those people and a lot of them getting to know them, but there is a little bit of a strange kind of interaction from, you know, the show to when it gets personal, at least initially.

00:31:14:16 - 00:31:33:12

Brian

Yeah, initially. And, you know, the other thing is we we have to be cautious because we will allow the professional world, our professional world to interfere in our personal space. We very often have to say, enough, we're done today. Let's we have to go out. Let's go have dinner. We need a drink. I don't it.

00:31:33:12 - 00:31:51:06

Brenna

Just happened last night. She went out for a drink. We had a horrible day. Our TikTok got shut down. We had all of these, like, professional things that happened. So we're like, let's go out and just have a drink and decompress and just have some time together. But that didn't happen. We sat on our phones the entire time trying to figure out, what are we going to do another TikTok, or are we going to switch to another platform?

00:31:51:08 - 00:31:54:13

Brenna

I think the biggest separation is with us, not with other people.

00:31:54:13 - 00:31:58:09

Brian

Yeah, that's the biggest issue for separating. We're terrible at that. We're terrible.

00:31:58:09 - 00:31:59:06

Brenna

Workaholics.

00:31:59:06 - 00:31:59:19

Luna

Yeah we do.

00:32:00:00 - 00:32:16:03

Brian

It's well, it's a corporate world. I mean, I you know, I had clubs and restaurants in four different time zones. I used to sleep with my phone on my chest, on vibrate so I could wake up whoever was next to me. That's how I look in casinos at ten class B casinos. It was batshit, so I don't know how not to do that.

00:32:16:06 - 00:32:23:16

Brian

Right. So we'll be out. We're having a drink with this beautiful one of our favorite places, and I'm like, so what are we going to do? She's like, stop talking. I don't want to. I want to do this right.

00:32:23:17 - 00:32:24:09

Brenna

No work talk.

00:32:24:10 - 00:32:27:13

Brian

No work talk. So we owe ourselves a night out because we haven't done that.

00:32:27:13 - 00:32:34:14

Luna

Yeah, totally. Well, and it's the flip side of like, will we do work that turns us on. And then it's sort of like there's a bit of a balance.

00:32:34:14 - 00:32:36:12

Brian

But you can you could make it unsexy.

00:32:36:12 - 00:32:54:22

Luna

Really quick, really quick. You should talk about that. Yeah. Totally. Totally. I had to learn that the hard way with a former partner. And I was like so enthused. It was the origin story of my podcast. And then I was like, oh, it's terrible when you break up. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you sound like your boundaries are pretty clear with people.

00:32:55:03 - 00:33:03:10

Luna

Can you reflect a little bit on what have you learned about kind of like social and cultural norms through your work that you found surprising?

00:33:03:12 - 00:33:29:14

Brenna

I found surprising, honestly, I'm surprised at how many people are monogamous that still love our work. Really listen to our show so much. I will never forget that email. We received this email from this. It was very early on and she was like, I'm monogamous. I have no interest in this world at all. But I listen to you guys when my kids are at soccer practice and I'm in the band by myself, and I turn it up and I listen and I'm like that.

00:33:29:14 - 00:33:58:16

Brenna

That surprised me because I expected we would get so much pushback from people who aren't in this world, right? From, you know, I mean, obviously she's not a sex negative person, but I just expected so much more pushback than we received. We've received a lot of support from people who may never be non-monogamous. And so, I mean, that was definitely the biggest positive, I think, from from my perspective, I think another thing that I'm always surprised about is the number of people that are willing to be so honest with us.

00:33:58:22 - 00:34:16:12

Brenna

I mean, we have people that reach out. We don't know them. Again, like you said, there is some familiarity there, which I really appreciate, but people will just lay out their life stories to us. And you realize very quickly it's because we are being vulnerable every week. We are pouring our hearts out on this podcast and people resonate with that.

00:34:16:12 - 00:34:19:14

Brenna

And I don't know, it's so rewarding for me.

00:34:19:15 - 00:34:35:16

Brian

Yeah, the good news is, I'll tell you the truth. For me, I'm always surprised when, like the monogamous world celebrates us. First of all, that's a huge thing. We do get that a lot. Like we're living vicariously through you. We could never do this, but we listen together and it makes our sex so much hotter. So great. Cool.

00:34:35:18 - 00:34:37:19

Brian

Do your thing. You know, we tell people all the time.

00:34:37:19 - 00:34:38:06

Luna

Like, the best.

00:34:38:06 - 00:34:39:06

Brenna

Compliment ever. They're like.

00:34:39:06 - 00:34:55:15

Brian

What can we do to just feel like you guys, we tell people all the time, just go out to a bar, sit separately and flirt with somebody and watch your partner do that, then go home and bang like bunnies. It's hot as shit. So we get a lot of that stuff. The pushback I think that surprises me the most is from inside the space, because there's a lot of that and it's really.

00:34:55:17 - 00:35:15:00

Brenna

Well, yeah, I mean, I think there's also another thing that surprised me was the kind of contradictions between different, let's call them alternative lifestyles. Yeah. So for example, with Brian and I, obviously coming from the Bdsm world, we got sidetracked in non-monogamy and that was really our focus. But then we got to a point where it was like, we want to get back into the kink world.

00:35:15:04 - 00:35:17:18

Brenna

So we started going to munchies and this.

00:35:17:18 - 00:35:19:15

Brian

Is in Montana. Okay. So judgy.

00:35:19:16 - 00:35:25:04

Brenna

Yeah, take it with a grain of salt. But we went to a munch and Brian had left the room, so he didn't really understand.

00:35:25:04 - 00:35:26:09

Luna

Exactly what restroom.

00:35:26:11 - 00:35:35:03

Brenna

What was going on. But they were going around, much like you do at munchies, introducing themselves. And their role was kind of just, you know, dropping some piece of personal information about themselves.

00:35:35:05 - 00:35:37:21

Brian

Right this way kind of thing. I'm a sub. I'm a, you know, whatever.

00:35:38:00 - 00:35:42:18

Brenna

So Brian comes back in after I've already introduced myself. And he says, I sit.

00:35:42:22 - 00:35:44:21

Brian

Next to her and I'm clearly next in line.

00:35:45:00 - 00:36:06:03

Brenna

Yeah, I'm Brian and we collectively are swingers. And literally everyone in the entire room went dead. Silence stared at us with their eyes wide, and I was like, why is this weird? We just talked about someone being hooked up to a car battery. How is that? I mean, and no judgment. That's freaking awesome for you. But I didn't understand that level of judgment.

00:36:06:05 - 00:36:26:12

Brenna

And it's not the first time or it's not the last time that we've experienced that. I've also experienced it in the poly world, because Brian and I are very open to the idea of polyamory. I had gotten into a local group that was specifically for polyamorous people on Facebook, and one of them recognized me from the podcast. Yeah, and kind of announced it to the group who I was, and they kicked me out.

00:36:26:16 - 00:36:41:21

Brenna

Right. And to them, it was like this idea of if you are swingers and you're not, if you're not monogamous but you're not poly, then you don't really understand our world and you're kind of an outsider. So there is a lot of just turmoil between the spaces.

00:36:41:23 - 00:36:45:12

Luna

So the idea of kinky swingers is breaking people's brain like, well.

00:36:45:12 - 00:36:47:11

Brian

The purists, right. Because so I mean.

00:36:47:13 - 00:36:49:06

Luna

Well, even in this way, everyone. No.

00:36:49:08 - 00:36:59:16

Brian

But even in the swingers space. Well, so back to bring a story. The first thing that the director of this month laid out for everybody was, this is a safe, non-judgmental space.

00:36:59:21 - 00:37:00:21

Luna

They need to close.

00:37:00:23 - 00:37:15:15

Brian

Literally the first thing they said. Now here's what's really shitty. You talk about hypocrisy. We sat there, the room got I mean, it was dead quiet was 50 people in this room. It was super awkward. We very quickly were like, and this is in a coffee shop, by the way.

00:37:15:20 - 00:37:17:06

Brenna

It was a private room.

00:37:17:09 - 00:37:20:01

Luna

But it's in a closed shop because it's just in the middle of the coffee.

00:37:20:01 - 00:37:38:14

Brian

Shop. Yeah, but let's not pretend it was someplace super clandestine, right? It's like the largest coffee shop in town. So we finally we leave. I'm like, fuck this, we're out. We weren't even home yet. Two couples in that room who we clearly recognized had reached out to us on more the dating platforms. Hey, just saw you guys at the Munch.

00:37:38:16 - 00:37:52:00

Brian

We thought we would, you know, reach out to you, see if you guys wanted to have a drink while you were, you know, throwing daggers at me from across the room 30 minutes ago. So you're clearly under you're under the radar, right? You're not you're not being fully honest either. So it was really kind of shit.

00:37:52:00 - 00:38:13:23

Brenna

So you learn very quickly when you operate in all the spaces, which we do is not there's not as much acceptance, no cohesiveness. There needs to be. And there are some groups that are starting to really try to fix that. We have friends that are they host a lifestyle podcast, and they also host kink events, and they're trying to kind of bridge those gaps and help people understand that, like we're all doing the same thing.

00:38:13:23 - 00:38:21:03

Brenna

We're all exploring. We're all trying to find our genuine selves. There is no, you know, ulterior motive to what anyone is.

00:38:21:03 - 00:38:22:04

Brian

To actually wants to be happy.

00:38:22:04 - 00:38:42:03

Brenna

But I really do think that I personally feel that there are certain things that people hold really dear to them in these spaces because they are so judged and they're so afraid of being judged by other people. They feel protective of their own. Yeah. And so I would like to really see that change. That's something that's a big goal for us over the next couple of years.

00:38:42:07 - 00:38:46:21

Brian

And it's and even with so, you know, the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy, you've got a lot going on.

00:38:46:21 - 00:38:47:08

Luna

Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:47:11 - 00:39:03:00

Brian

But they rarely coexist. They don't want most of them don't want to. You have purists in every category including the swinger category. And the truth is, if you're under 45, you don't even know what a swinger is. You don't, you know, but there are those purists, you know, and it's like heteronormative couples for heteronormative couples. Same room, same bed, lights on.

00:39:03:05 - 00:39:20:04

Brian

That's not we don't do that. That's training wheels as far as I'm concerned. Like you haven't even gotten the first gear yet, but that's how people play and that's their thing. But if you do anything outside of that, like the hot wife space for us, I mean, people are like, well, wait a minute, you guys go out separately on dates alone, like.

00:39:20:06 - 00:39:21:03

Luna

Yeah.

00:39:21:05 - 00:39:29:01

Brian

Yeah, we're really good at that. We do really well. And then oddly enough, we come back home together, figure that, you know, because go figure. Yeah, people are super judgy in this space.

00:39:29:03 - 00:39:38:14

Luna

This illustrates so well why I am obsessed with interviewing so many different people one on one, because I don't know how we figure out what other people's assumptions are. I can't figure them out.

00:39:38:15 - 00:39:39:00

Brian

Labels.

00:39:39:00 - 00:39:40:01

Luna

Right. You know, it's label.

00:39:40:01 - 00:39:41:02

Brian

Labels are for other people, but.

00:39:41:02 - 00:40:01:06

Luna

Also labels mean different things. People can mean very different things when they use the word lifestyle or you in the lifestyle, depending on what group of people you're in, it means something completely different. And so wow, oh that is that those are surprising things. Okay. So this is piggybacking off of that. Are there sexual norms that you would like to shift in our world for?

00:40:01:06 - 00:40:02:05

Luna

Oh so.

00:40:02:07 - 00:40:03:03

Brenna

So many.

00:40:03:03 - 00:40:04:17

Brian

Toxic monogamy? Should we start.

00:40:04:17 - 00:40:28:15

Brenna

With toxic monogamy. Assuming monogamy is the default. That's the big one. I think the other one for from the lifestyle perspective that we see so much, obviously being Brian is not straight. He's a pansexual man in the lifestyle. Bisexual or pansexual. Women are so celebrated, it's almost like an expectation that women are not going to be straight. And when you're not straight, it's like, hell yeah, game on.

00:40:28:19 - 00:40:30:17

Brenna

Yeah. Men are not treated the same way.

00:40:30:20 - 00:40:31:15

Luna

Yeah. Why is that?

00:40:31:16 - 00:40:38:18

Brian

I because there's, there's this fictitious unwritten hierarchy in the swingers space.

00:40:38:18 - 00:40:51:11

Brenna

Is that you think it is or just a societal thing. Because I think that men are expected to be, well, masculine. And I think people assume that if you're having sex with someone besides a woman as a man, that that's somehow less masculine, well.

00:40:51:11 - 00:41:24:10

Brian

Consider it from a generational perspective. Right? So guys my age. So I was born in 1970. Okay. So I'm old, I'm 53. So anyone in this space that is, let's say 40 or older, they grew up in a very different time. Me specifically right now. Fortunately, I did not grow up that way. But, you know, the idea of someone my age or guy my age admitting that he is other than straight in a room full of presumably straight guys, you're almost never in normative life.

00:41:24:10 - 00:41:36:14

Brian

You're never going to see that happen. I don't give a shit. I challenge you to say anything to me, because if you think that masculinity and heteronormative behavior are synonymous, you are out of your mind.

00:41:36:16 - 00:41:40:15

Luna

I mean, yeah, like if we have all pansexual people in this room, that's a great. Yeah.

00:41:40:17 - 00:41:41:12

Brenna

That's like my dream.

00:41:41:12 - 00:42:01:23

Brian

Yeah, yeah, but the idea you can't be masculine or manly or rugged and not straight, it's like this bizarre concept to people. But again, I do think that there's this unwritten hierarchy in the space because of the purist, right? You've got the the heteronormative couples at the top of the list, and then you've got the unicorns, obviously at the bottom.

00:42:01:23 - 00:42:20:03

Brian

Of course, the female of the couple has got to be bisexual. That's like a standard. And then it's everybody else. And then at the bottom is bisexual single men or or men in general. It's it's so strange. You know, it really is a strange concept because they think if I'm not straight, the guy, obviously I'm instantly going to be attracted to you.

00:42:20:04 - 00:42:25:10

Brian

It doesn't work that way. I'm not attracted to every woman and I'm not attracted to every guy. It just isn't a thing.

00:42:25:13 - 00:42:26:09

Brenna

Or I'm not.

00:42:26:13 - 00:42:46:12

Brian

Non-binary. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I have dated transgendered people because they're attractive to me. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. But they really do make it difficult. It's one of those things. It's like toxic monogamy. And then there's bullshit. Like they just can't get over. I'm doing a seminar at night in New Orleans about bisexual men in the space.

00:42:46:14 - 00:42:52:08

Brian

I do it all the time. I just did one in Omaha, Nebraska, which was a huge success room full of guys in Omaha.

00:42:52:08 - 00:42:53:04

Brenna

I was shocked, yeah.

00:42:53:08 - 00:42:55:21

Brian

Omaha, 50 guys in the room. I couldn't believe it.

00:42:55:23 - 00:42:56:04

Luna

Yeah.

00:42:56:05 - 00:43:02:13

Brian

So I think it's getting better on some level, but there's definitely that that stigma. You know, it's really it just.

00:43:02:13 - 00:43:12:05

Luna

Sucks, man. I just love spaces where it's like, can we just all be turned on by each other? Like, you don't have to participate with everyone, but like, you even have to, like. Yeah, just accept it. Just, you know, just. Yeah.

00:43:12:05 - 00:43:13:09

Brian

What do you care what I'm doing?

00:43:13:13 - 00:43:34:21

Luna

Some people getting turned on in a room is a great thing. It really, you know, and it's interesting because, like, I am a I'm a high arousal pansexual attracted to most people if they're nice people. Right. And it doesn't mean I'm going to fuck most people because time because now I'm at the point where I'm like, well, I have to have a really good, compelling reason because like, otherwise I would only be fucking like, well.

00:43:34:23 - 00:43:42:09

Brian

If I am attracted to you, it doesn't mean I want to have sex with, like, I'm not trying to do that, right. I can just find some, like artwork. I can find it attractive, but I have to buy it.

00:43:42:11 - 00:43:57:08

Luna

Yeah, I don't have to take all the artworks home. Yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm. I am with you there. Okay, so since you began your work and you can pick any industry, well, you can pick pumpkins, but have you noticed any trends in your industry or just in your personal work, like over the course of the years?

00:43:57:10 - 00:43:58:06

Brian

Yeah, I definitely have.

00:43:58:06 - 00:44:20:08

Brenna

Well, podcasting is exploding, first of all. I mean, when we did it, when we started our podcast five years ago, I think we were one of 12 or 15 lifestyle podcasts out there, and most of them were doing it consistently. Now it's huge and I love that for many reasons. I just love that we're seeing sexuality more represented in the podcasting space, period.

00:44:20:13 - 00:44:48:19

Brenna

I do think also that we're starting to see podcasting platforms, hosts, etc. that are starting to take lifestyle podcasts and sexuality podcasts a little bit more seriously. They're starting to see the value in our audiences, which is so huge. I mean, we have a couple of, you know, national companies that work for us, that sell sponsorship for some major companies that you would never expect would be willing to work with people that talk about fucking for a living.

00:44:48:19 - 00:45:17:11

Brenna

And it's so cool to see that kind of evolution. I do think it's going to continue to move in the right direction. I'm always surprised whenever we get a new proposal. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing I see from the podcasting perspective. I think from an event perspective, I personally think we're going to start to see a lot fewer events because I think what people don't realize, especially when it comes to like swinging lifestyle events specifically, there is a very small margin and you have to be really, really good at what you do.

00:45:17:11 - 00:45:47:13

Brenna

Everyone thinks it's so fun to just let's throw a party and let's just have a bunch of fun. And you realize very, very quickly that the margins are incredibly small. You have to be very, very mindful with what you're spending your money on and the venues you're choosing and your insurance practices and all of that. So I think we're going to start to see far fewer, or at least we're going to see much smaller and more curated events, because especially pre-COVID, you were seeing these gigantic in-person events, and there's really only one left in the country at this point.

00:45:47:13 - 00:46:07:05

Brian

So yeah, I think you're going to see these smaller, curated events much like the ones we put together. It's unfortunate because much like Brenna said, there are there are a lot more people. Let's say, for example, in the podcast lifestyle space, that does not mean that they're all good. What I don't want to see happen is things get watered down and start to make things more difficult for people who are trying to do it properly.

00:46:07:07 - 00:46:09:20

Brenna

Or for people that are trying to actually gain information.

00:46:09:21 - 00:46:25:05

Brian

Yeah, yeah, that's the other thing, the legitimacy of a lot of the folks that are in this space, because now people are starting to see that there's some opportunity right now, they don't know what the opportunity is, but they see it as an opportunity, and it's fraudulent and it's immoral, and they're just trying to take advantage of people, you know?

00:46:25:06 - 00:46:41:21

Brian

And for me, that's a I have a problem with that. And unfortunately I think that's there's more of that than not. And I really want to see the space almost clean itself up, which is why the the ENM summit is so important to me. If you're going to host events, you're going to do takeovers. Cool. But you really do need to follow some protocols.

00:46:41:21 - 00:47:09:12

Brian

And this is a complicated stuff, right? This is safety security, consent it being thoughtful inclusive. These are very simple concepts to grasp. But like Brenna said, not an easy space. You're limited in a lot of time. So the places you can host these events, you do have very small margins. So your options are one of two. You either throw an event in a place that you would not ordinarily ever sleep in, and charge very little money and try to fill the place up, or you have better curated events and it cost a little bit more, and then you have a better quality product.

00:47:09:18 - 00:47:18:22

Brian

And that's what we we're not the cheapest in town by any means, but I am not going to throw an event at the Dew Drop in and hope for the best. You know, that's just not it doesn't work for me.

00:47:19:01 - 00:47:24:01

Luna

Totally feel that. Do you have to like, go over things with your lawyer every time? Like what is.

00:47:24:03 - 00:47:36:12

Brian

Fortunately, our lawyer is my friend. I've worked for, worked with for 30 years in Texas. He left back in 2000, came to Vegas, went to law school, and he owns two law firms here, and he practices business law.

00:47:37:09 - 00:47:37:19

Luna

Brilliant.

00:47:37:19 - 00:47:52:19

Brian

Fortunately for us, it works out really well. But, yes, I am in constant contact with him because we have to be, you know, about it. And then I'll call him. I'll text him for any stupid reason. Like, hey, I know this is ridiculous. And he'll send me some messages back, like, you're a moron. Just do this.

00:47:52:23 - 00:47:55:00

Luna

Yeah. Okay.

00:47:55:01 - 00:47:59:03

Brenna

Yeah, but you have to be careful. This space is full of all of these landmines.

00:47:59:06 - 00:48:09:12

Luna

You have to be well, and there's some crazy law. Like, I had a meeting with a lawyer recently, and I was like, and this is another. And I think someday I'd like to do that. And he just told me some real facts about. And I was like, oh, I didn't. Okay.

00:48:09:14 - 00:48:24:10

Brian

Well, that's just it. Like I'll say it to people all the time, especially like my buddy. If your friend who's an attorney is willing to sit down with you for two hours and give you, he basically would give me, he'll give me a class. Unlike the history of Business Law 101 for free. Right. So you just sit down and shut up and take notes.

00:48:24:10 - 00:48:43:17

Brian

That's just what you do. So when your attorney is willing to do that, just shut up and listen because the information is invaluable. I've been in business my entire life. I was the chief operating officer for a very large restaurant group in Texas. I was the vice president for the largest privately held restaurant company in the world. I've done a lot of stuff in the business world.

00:48:43:17 - 00:49:00:18

Brian

I have learned more from our attorney because of this space. In the last year than I think I've known my entire life. Texas law. I can tell you up and down because that's where I operate. This space is very different, you know, it's very, very different. You are under such different constraints and you really do need debate and scrutiny.

00:49:00:22 - 00:49:06:16

Brian

And yeah, I mean, all the eyes are on you, all the eyes and don't kid yourself. Someone's looking to get you.

00:49:06:18 - 00:49:17:06

Luna

Wow. What is like a stand out moment from your work? Like something that you think back on? It can be an event or a podcast or something else, but like something that still makes you tingly and smile.

00:49:17:08 - 00:49:21:23

Brenna

So we host an event called Pod Bash every year, and it's we don't make any money.

00:49:22:00 - 00:49:23:21

Luna

Just that's what you said.

00:49:23:23 - 00:49:42:22

Brenna

We make no money off this event. It's literally just an opportunity for us to bring together people that have been supportive of our show. We bring in other lifestyle podcasters and their listeners, and it really is just kind of a networking opportunity. Throughout the weekend, people party together. I mean, obviously there's sex happening, but it's way more than that.

00:49:42:22 - 00:50:01:22

Brenna

The first one that we threw was in 2021, and people walked away from that event with lifelong friends. I mean, it was so fun. I will never forget there was the last day of the event. We took a picture, there was a big balcony, and we probably had over 100 people on this balcony, and that wasn't even a third of the people that that attended the event.

00:50:02:03 - 00:50:29:03

Brenna

And everyone is hugging and crying and taking photos together, and it was just a reminder to me that this is not just about sex. Anyone that thinks that the lifestyle, space or lifestyle event is just about sex, you need to come to an event like that because you realized very quickly it's about finding your people. It's about finding people that respect you and understand you and want to, you know, support you and cheer you on and all the things that you're doing in your life, both sexually and otherwise.

00:50:29:03 - 00:50:32:16

Brenna

So I think that, for me, was kind of the one that just like, makes me feel good.

00:50:32:16 - 00:50:49:02

Brian

Yeah. Pod Bash was a big deal for us. We've done it two years in a row now. We moved it here to Vegas the third year at Full Takeover here in Vegas at a hotel in September. And what really has come out of that is, you know, we have a private telegram group and there's about 175 people in that group, and they chat every morning, every day, all day.

00:50:49:02 - 00:50:52:14

Brian

I probably haven't looked at it in a couple of hours, probably 200 missed messages.

00:50:52:14 - 00:50:54:02

Luna

Oh my gosh. Do you read through all of them?

00:50:54:02 - 00:51:09:05

Brian

All of them we go through it's it's constant. It's all that. We have multiple of them. But the one is the big one. Then we have one for podcasting. There's a men's group I have with a bunch of guys. So Pod Bash really brought all those people together. And it's life changing for people who have never been, it really is.

00:51:09:05 - 00:51:29:03

Brian

And then the people who have come multiple years, it's like a family reunion. So, you know, again, it's not about the sex. Sex is easy. We can do that all day long. It's not hard to find. It's the building of relationships that's complicated, right? That's the tricky part. And I say it all the time. I firmly believe that there is no universally recognized community within this space.

00:51:29:03 - 00:51:39:06

Brian

We're not there yet. We have, however, have created our own community of amazing people. And that's why we do podcast we have made in the past two years $0. I probably it's just.

00:51:39:07 - 00:51:39:16

Luna

US money.

00:51:39:18 - 00:51:42:16

Brian

About 12 grand to throw this thing over the last two.

00:51:42:16 - 00:51:44:06

Luna

Years. It's worth it. It's worth we.

00:51:44:06 - 00:52:00:13

Brian

Don't do it for the money. I promise you. There's no money on cash. But it's a blast. We bring our friends together. You know, the tagline is, it's just a fucking party that's out there. Is it? It's on the website. There are no seminars, there's no bullshit. It's just a party. Show up, take your clothes off, have a good time.

00:52:00:17 - 00:52:04:02

Brenna

That's all that. And mix and mingle with people and really develop those relationships.

00:52:04:02 - 00:52:18:00

Brian

From all over the country that have never met. They've only digitally communicated for some, in some cases up to three years, and they've never seen each other. It's a big deal. So yeah, part of batch for us is like, I mean, if we never host another event, we're going to continue to do Pod Bash just so we could see our friends.

00:52:18:03 - 00:52:20:15

Luna

What beautiful creators of community you are.

00:52:20:15 - 00:52:27:09

Brian

That's fantastic. It's amazing. We love it. Yeah, I would I will do that event five times a year. I wouldn't do any. I wouldn't have to do anything else. That's great.

00:52:27:10 - 00:52:31:13

Luna

Amazing. What would you like to celebrate most about your work right now?

00:52:31:15 - 00:52:48:21

Brenna

I mean, I think for me personally, it's just I can't like I said, I came from the world of corporate America, and I look back at the person I was when I was in that world and not in this world, and I don't even recognize myself. I was such a people pleaser. I was such a go with the herd type of a person.

00:52:49:01 - 00:53:10:21

Brenna

I was promoted very quickly for doing things that not that were unethical by any means, but but maybe didn't speak to who I was as a person because you kind of have to do that in that world. And in this world, I feel like I get to forge my own path, and that's created so much confidence in myself, in so many different areas, not just professionally, but personally my relationships.

00:53:10:21 - 00:53:29:11

Brenna

Again, we're kind of delving into the world of polyamory, and I, I feel myself being so strong and knowing what I want and demanding things from people that I know that I deserve. And I never would have been that person in the past. So I think for me, that's the biggest thing to celebrate, is just like how far I've come as a person in general, but especially professionally.

00:53:29:13 - 00:53:49:02

Brian

Yeah, for me, again, I was a corporate guy, but I did work for an individual for the better part of 30 years, and I absolutely did not operate morally. It was not always aboveboard. I did things and was asked to do things that were absolutely under the table. I wasn't a great person professionally. I did stuff because I got paid to do it.

00:53:49:02 - 00:54:07:20

Brian

So what I got, that was my job. You do that. That was that's what I did and I don't do that shit anymore. I've owned a number of businesses. I always had terrible partners. I finally have the right ones. And so for me personally, not being that guy anymore, not being that person, I don't have the desire to do the things I used to do.

00:54:07:22 - 00:54:22:15

Brian

I'm much older, obviously, and have no interest in that. But when I think back and, you know, we just had this conversation the other day because the other half of my former company was just sold. When I think of some of the things I did to get ahead in that world, I can't even imagine that I don't even know who that person was anymore.

00:54:22:15 - 00:54:43:10

Brian

It's really difficult for me to even wrap my head around. And now what we do is literally try to bring people together and help people explore their sexuality and enjoy themselves that way. It's a totally different space. So I see what Brant and I have done from literally a blog. Didn't know what we were doing, started this podcast with a cell phone and a couple of shitty mics.

00:54:43:12 - 00:54:55:11

Brian

And you know, we've gotten to where we are. It's so, you know, the largest podcast in the space. We have an international sponsor ship. And, you know, the thing has taken on a life of its own. It blows me away every time we think about it.

00:54:55:13 - 00:54:56:18

Brenna

Living our dreams.

00:54:56:19 - 00:55:20:18

Luna

That fucking awesome. Okay, I'd like to end on a fantasy brainstorm question. Okay, so you I give you a little sneak peek of some of my, like, larger life goal dreams. But imagine there is a creative space, holistic creativity. I consider sex the founding, the building block, foundational building block for creativity, a creative space that's part sex ed museum, part erotic art gallery.

00:55:20:23 - 00:55:44:13

Luna

There's a secret members only dungeon down below that. During the week, the whole place has educational workshops on weekends and afternoon play party on weekends. Sex workers can consume content there. The whole thing you are tasked with creating and designing one of the rooms it can represent you. Promote your brand. Be an experience that you want people to have that reflects your values and you have an unlimited budget.

00:55:44:15 - 00:55:47:01

Luna

What is the Brian and Brenna room like?

00:55:47:03 - 00:55:48:03

Brian

Well, that's easy for me.

00:55:48:06 - 00:55:50:04

Brenna

Okay, you go first, then.

00:55:50:06 - 00:56:09:03

Brian

Early 1900s of speakeasy, the kind of place that if you don't find a partner, you could fuck the couch. You know what I mean? Like super sexy, luxurious, dimly lit, just that old prohibition vibe. Elegant, but just super sexy.

00:56:09:05 - 00:56:14:18

Brenna

Oh, I like that. I think for me, and maybe to add to that, because I really like that, I want you can.

00:56:14:18 - 00:56:15:15

Luna

Have another room.

00:56:15:17 - 00:56:35:10

Brenna

Well, I want something that's about like all the senses when I think of something and I think of the best experiences that I've had, sexually or otherwise, it's things that speak to every sentence. So it's the music, it's the smells, it's the fabrics. It's, you know, people with consent touching and that sensuality and the exploration of somebody else's body.

00:56:35:13 - 00:56:51:00

Brenna

Not just I think so many people think of sex as like just this transactional thing. And I would love to create a space where that is not the case. And it's so much more about, you know, the energies bouncing off of each other. And that's really celebrated in that space.

00:56:51:02 - 00:56:55:13

Luna

Fuck yeah. Where can people find you on the internet?

00:56:55:15 - 00:56:56:12

Brenna

We're everywhere.

00:56:56:12 - 00:56:58:17

Luna

And TikTok currently we're.

00:56:58:17 - 00:57:07:15

Brenna

Everywhere from swingers. And honestly, the easiest way to find us for everything is front porch swingers. Dot com. You're going to find everything the podcast, the events, the naughty cool.

00:57:07:19 - 00:57:13:18

Luna

I wanted to ask you, why is it called front porch swing? What's that part? So you did you swing on the porch?

00:57:13:18 - 00:57:16:07

Brenna

Well, we used to when we lived in Montana, we had a porch with a.

00:57:16:10 - 00:57:16:20

Brian

Swing on.

00:57:16:20 - 00:57:36:00

Brenna

Swing on the front porch. But I think for me it was more so the nostalgia of, you know, the idea of we were rural swinging at that point, right? We were in a space where we didn't have a lot of people around us, and you had to be really creative. And that's really where the show stemmed from, was us being able to, like I said, connect with people outside of that one small community.

00:57:36:02 - 00:57:55:20

Brenna

So, you know, that was part of it. But the other thing, as it's kind of evolved is we're on the front porch, not the back porch, because we are proud. We are proud swingers. We are proud non-monogamous people. We are proud of the work that we do. We're not in hiding. And while we understand that people still have to be in certain situations, we want to continue to move the space forward to hopefully one day that isn't the case.

00:57:55:21 - 00:58:00:23

Brian

Yeah, not to be fair, we couldn't actually have sex on our front porch at our old house in Montana because you.

00:58:00:23 - 00:58:01:10

Luna

Can see it's a.

00:58:01:10 - 00:58:02:10

Brian

Block from the elementary.

00:58:02:10 - 00:58:03:10

Brenna

School. That's not great.

00:58:03:11 - 00:58:11:13

Brian

We actually had to look up the laws because we were having sex, like next to the fire pit in the backyard. And I'm like, oh shit, we're less than 1500 feet from the school. We can't do this.

00:58:11:13 - 00:58:12:12

Luna

That was illegal.

00:58:12:12 - 00:58:14:00

Brian

Yeah. So you couldn't do it.

00:58:14:00 - 00:58:14:21

Luna

Because you were outside?

00:58:14:23 - 00:58:19:06

Brian

Yeah. Can't do it. Yeah. 1500 feet from a school year asking you to be inside if you're doing that.

00:58:19:08 - 00:58:21:07

Luna

Well, yeah, absolutely. Good to know the laws.

00:58:21:07 - 00:58:23:00

Brian

I'm not even in your own backyard.

00:58:23:02 - 00:58:28:04

Luna

Slow burn. I'm Brian. Thank you. So much for being a guest on this story.

00:58:28:04 - 00:58:29:13

Brenna

Thank you. One.